Virgin Birth of Isa

belH

Peace,

Here's some trivia
Who said this? (hint, no relation to Isa)

"Son of my mother, the people overpowered me and nearly killed me, so do not make the enemies rejoice over me, and do not make me with the wicked people."

peace

Peace
Haroon, Moses Brother.
D

Tay

Peace belalhammad,

Nicely done!
Do you know of any "son of my father" quotes in the qur'an? Or "son of ______ (male name)"

Soof

I personally do not identify with this, "cannot be named by your mother as it is wrong" you previously said that it was cultural, but you are trying to say in the same breath that it is in the Qur'an when Man and Woman are equal on grounds except who is the protector and who is the raiser of the children. I believe this is the same sexism and subjugation I see resonating through the Hadith. I need to know enough Arabic to justify my point. Isn't it so sons are named after Fathers, Daughters after Mothers? Orphans after Mothers or Fathers that died? Does it matter? Its not wrong to do either, someone said aba is not gender specific. I'm not sure, but that would make more sense.

arnoldyasin

Do you call your Arabic...Arabic.
Well, I call it a Twisted Arabic. It is an Arabic that meant to Mislead away from the true meaning of the Arabic.

I always quote the dictionaries, I never make the meanings up or assume I know them through the modern common meanings. Quranic Arabic is different from Modern Arabic since MSA has been changed and shaped by a 1000 years of secterianism, Christian/Jewish and Persian influences. Maybe it is a humble suggestion to stop assuming your Arabic is the same as the Arabic of the Prophet and study the classic dictionaries to get a better picture of the possibilities of the meanings of some key words we have discussed.

Samia

Are you an arbic speaker?
I'm.

Question irrelevant. Lane was not arabic speaker. Many arabic speakers do not know arabic (these are not examples of you or me, just examples).

Om and Ab are not just natural parents. They are parents who sustained and brought up the child. A father who left his child and never cared about it is not "ab" but "walid". This (i.e ab; om) also covers "adoptive" fathers and nursing women, whom God called "your nursing mothers".

"ad3iyaa' " is the plural of "da3ii imposter, claimant, not real" It has nothing to do with adopted sons. The claimant could be the one who made himself your son, not you who claimed him to be your son, but you liked it and went with it, without you being really his sustainer (ab). Maybe just for the sake of prestige.

The ancient pictographs of the root alif-ba (based on Ancient Hebrew) are

alif=ox head
beyt/ba=floorplan of a house

when they are put together one can understand that one of the meanings is "strong one of the house."

aka sustainer; not necessarily male; and not necessarily the natural father, otherwise, the pictograph could have drawn something else
Back to verse 434 ? confused

"Son of my mother, the people overpowered me and nearly killed me, so do not make the enemies rejoice over me, and do not make me with the wicked people."

Good point

arnoldyasin

Arnold
As you know SHRIK is to associate with God what he did not indicate in His Books; can you tell me how did you associate with God (his religion) that Jesues Has a Father, and his name is "Joseph? (I need a proof from The Quran).
And if you do not, then if I follow you I will be making you God within God, simple as that.

See 688 and 359. First mentions him part of who's father were blessed, second says he was created as all of mankind is (see present tense of the words).
I have never said the Qur'an mentions the name nor did I ever state that the name Joseph is correct. I have only said the Bible itself says this to show that the concept of virgin birth was not part of early Christianity itself.

Please do not keep mixing up things.

unknownuser

Salam,

Peace;
So, how do you understand 33-5

The main difference is in the understanding of "aba." Word by word understandings vary by some degree....

Moreover, 33-5 says "if ye know not their father's ", and if knowing the Mother is never been a problem and knowing the Father is a problem, then "Abaohom" is for Fathers.

There are times when the mother is unknown....remember when moses was put in the river by his mother....the mother was unknown to pharoah and a great deal of other people (but she was also known to others). It is not unheard of.

Salam,

This is correct. The word is not gender specific.
The word aba is also not gender specific in the Torah, and the Injeel....the same as alif-meem is also not gender specific.

Just To clarify....what Belalhammad is saying is CORRECT.

However, we must understand at the same time that "aba" is not gender specific.

That it can refer to both sexes....then we can fully understand why Isa is called "Isa ibn Marium."

Just as a side note
The ancient pictographs of the root alif-ba (based on Ancient Hebrew) are

alif=ox head
beyt/ba=floorplan of a house

when they are put together one can understand that one of the meanings is "strong one of the house."

Salam,
Arnab

aka sustainer; not necessarily male; and not necessarily the natural father, otherwise, the pictograph could have drawn something else
Back to verse 434 ? confused

Yes, that is EXACTLY my point! bravo

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Are you an arbic speaker?
I'm.

Question irrelevant.

Salam,

From the way the question is posed..."Are you an arabic speaker?" I see that it is VERY relevant.

Belalhammad did not ask "Are you a NATIVE Arabic speaker?" or "Is Arabic your first language?"

The question was.... Are you an Arabic speaker? In the present tense....or phrased another way would be....Do you speak Arabic?

This question is relevant to see if you are speaking about something you have knowledge of. And it is also a fair question.

Lane was not arabic speaker.

Yes, Lane WAS an Arabic speaker. Although, Arabic was NOT his first language.
He dedicated a good portion of his life to studying the language and composing a dictionary.

Salam,
Arnab

Samia

Salam,

From the way the question is posed..."Are you an arabic speaker?" I see that it is VERY relevant.

Belalhammad did not ask "Are you a NATIVE Arabic speaker?" or "Is Arabic your first language?"

The question was.... Are you an Arabic speaker? In the present tense....or phrased another way would be....Do you speak Arabic?

This question is relevant to see if you are speaking about something you have knowledge of. And it is also a fair question.

Yes, Lane WAS an Arabic speaker. Although, Arabic was NOT his first language.
He dedicated a good portion of his life to studying the language and composing a dictionary.

Salam,
Arnab

The context, Arnab, the context
Why is he asking if I speak Arabic? Does he need some directions?
Because, when I am abroad, I would ask someone if they speak English to ask for directions, not to engage in an academic, religious, linguistic, legal...or any other serious discussion

belH

Peace to all of you

Sorry, I was away from my computer. (I will try to answer every question)

Peace belalhammad,

Nicely done!
Do you know of any "son of my father" quotes in the qur'an? Or "son of ______ (male name)"

(&#65279

Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! They each presented a sacrifice (to Allah) it was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely" said the former, "Allah doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous. (5-27)

(&#65279

We took the Children of Israel across the sea Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)." (10-90)

Children of Israel is Mentioned hunderds of time

(&#65279

O ye children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you, But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition! (7-26)

children of Adam is mentioned hundereds of time

(&#65279

And Mary the daughter of `Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into her (body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (Servants). (66-12)

(&#65279
"Do ye wonder that there hath come to you a message from your Lord through a man of your own people, to warn you? Call in remembrance that he made you inheritors after the people of Noah, and gave you a stature tall among the nations. Call in remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah that so Ye may prosper." (7-69)

Many times

(&#65279
Said the Chiefs of the people of Pharaoh "This is indeed a sorcerer well-versed. (7-109)

Tens of time

(&#65279
Hath not the story reached them of those before them? The people of Noah and Ad and Thamud; the people of Abraham, the men of Madyan, and the cities overthrown. To them came their Messenger with clear signs. It is not Allah who wrongs them, but they wrong their own souls. (9-70)

Tens of time

(&#65279
"And O my people! let not my dissent (from you) cause you to sin, lest ye suffer a fate similar to that of the people of Noah or of Hud or of Salih nor are the people of Lut far off from you! (11-89)

Now can you tell me how many time in the Quran God named a person (male or Female) or people after a Female name?

peace

belH

I personally do not identify with this, "cannot be named by your mother as it is wrong" you previously said that it was cultural, but you are trying to say in the same breath that it is in the Qur'an when Man and Woman are equal on grounds except who is the protector and who is the raiser of the children. I believe this is the same sexism and subjugation I see resonating through the Hadith. I need to know enough Arabic to justify my point. Isn't it so sons are named after Fathers, Daughters after Mothers? Orphans after Mothers or Fathers that died? Does it matter? Its not wrong to do either, someone said aba is not gender specific. I'm not sure, but that would make more sense.

I mean the Last Name or Family name; for example, Mohamed Abdulah (Mohamed is the first name and Abdulah is the father or last name.
Hillry Clinton, Susan Smith.
Can you tell me about some one who has a Female name as a last name?
This is not Sexism, but for a reason that only God knows.
peace

Question irrelevant.

nope
Anyway, Sorry.

Salam,The main difference is in the understanding of "aba." Word by word understandings vary by some degree....

There are times when the mother is unknown....remember when moses was put in the river by his mother....the mother was unknown to pharoah and a great deal of other people (but she was also known to others). It is not unheard of

Salam,
Arnab

peace
But then Moses was named after the Egyption King (male). It is very rare to not know the mother, but easy to not know the father

belH

See 688 and 359. First mentions him part of who's father were blessed, second says he was created as all of mankind is (see present tense of the words).
I have never said the Qur'an mentions the name nor did I ever state that the name Joseph is correct. I have only said the Bible itself says this to show that the concept of virgin birth was not part of early Christianity itself.

Please do not keep mixing up things.

Again, where is your proof from the Qran (a Desicive Verse like the ones that Confirm the Virgin Birth of Jesus).
If you think that 6-87 (not 8 and 3-59 are desicive proofs, then you need to learn Arabic, Quran and reasoning before making a FATWA about God Religion hail.

I have never said the Qur'an mentions the name nor did I ever state that the name Joseph is correct. I have only said the Bible itself says this to show that the concept of virgin birth was not part of early Christianity itself.

Arnab
Can you confirm that the Bible says what Arnold says (that Jesus has a Father by the name of Joseph)
Thanks

unknownuser

Arnab
Can you confirm that the Bible says what Arnold says (that Jesus has a Father by the name of Joseph)
Thanks

Salam,

This is an interesting question. I going to use English translations to direct people to verses....I am not saying these are accurate translations....they are just to give one a loose idea of the content of the orginal verses.

In the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... I cannot find ONE time that Jesus claims to be the son of Joseph.

In fact, on the one occasion where Mary says to Jesus in Luke 241....

"You're father and I have been anxiously searching for you".....

Jesus replies....
'Why were you searching for me?' he asked. 'Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?'

(he was in a temple aka his father's house)....thereby correcting his mother who was claiming that Joseph was his father.

The above verses are the only time that I can find Joseph being referred to as Jesus' father. And as you see Jesus corrects her.

Jesus is called Mary's son not Josephs in Matthew 125
Mat 125 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son and he called his name JESUS.

Here are some other verses on the pregnancy of Mary.
Matthew 118
When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 131-35
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring for a son, and shalt call his name Jesus .... Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be seeing I know not a man. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee.

Jesus seems to reject being called the son of David as well....
Mat 2241
While the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus asked them
Mat 2242
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
Mat 2243
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 2244
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 2245
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 2246
And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Mark 1235-37
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that messiah is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?

Its only the writings of Paul and Revelations that refer to Jesus (sometimes loosely) as the son of David and once the son of Abraham.
But I cannot find in the Christian bible even one time that Joseph is called Jesus's father.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

I mean the Last Name or Family name; for example, Mohamed Abdulah (Mohamed is the first name and Abdulah is the father or last name.
Hillry Clinton, Susan Smith.

Salam,
I cannot find any referrence to "last names" as we seem them used today in the Quran...Maybe you can direct me to a verse.

I do see people being called first name-child of-parents name. Or simply by their first name.

But then Moses was named after the Egyption King (male). It is very rare to not know the mother, but easy to not know the father

I'm not familiar with any verse where Moses is named after an Egyptian King....maybe you can direct me to this verse as well.

Salam,
Arnab

belH