Virgin Birth of Isa
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If God only revealed the following verses to clairfy "Jesus Birth", it would be more than enough and very well- established. It will be enough to explain all the other non-well-established ones, which you used to mislead every one who is reading this debate.
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Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. (16) She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. (17) She said "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah." (1 He said "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son." (19) She said "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (20) He said "So (it will be) thy Lord saith
That is easy for Me and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us' it is a matter (so) decreed." (21) So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. (22) And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree she cried (in her anguish) "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (23) But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-free) "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; (24) "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. (25) "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man sayI have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' " (26) At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). they said "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! (27) "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" (2 But she pointed to the babe. They said "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (29) He said "I am indeed a servant of Allah He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; (30) "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (31) "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (32) "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! (33) Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. (34) It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it "Be", and it is. (19-35)One time you claim,
Begining Qoute
The Quran clearly mentions Jesus's father. In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as "?. And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
In the verse 688, the Arabic words "?. Wa min aaba ihim?" is critical. Let me break down the words Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means ?. And from among their fathers?.
End Qoute
And one time you claim that Abaohm dese not mean Father
Begining Qoute
No, it can imply both mother and father. So both his father and mother were blessed. Still the verse doesn't change in its directness.
End Qoute
Who are you?
Why do you underestimate people intelligence?
Do you think we are brainless?You can twist words very nicely, plus the word Abaahim implies both to father and mother, and so none are left out. Circles circles we go round and round...
But I'm done talking with people who deem themselves equal to God to judge people as mushrik just because their interpretation differs from yours.
Peace
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Salam Tay
Sorry, I was away from my Computer. But any way, I will try to answer your & and post.In summary, the mention of isa as ibn maryam has zero sigificance in support of your argument that isa was born without a father.
;D
No it does.If God did not reveal the decisive verses that show the story of the Spirit that came to Mary and Blew in her to make here pregnant, then you are right; but because of such verses, I'm entitled to use them as very important supporting evidences.
Believe me if Arnold had the chance to use ones like these to support his theory, he would have done and you would have bless him for itSomewhere in this thread, you mentioned that God could have easily said, "Isa had a father". Did you ever think that he could have just as easily said, "Isa did not have a father"??
nope
yes
God did say "Isa Did Not Have a human Father" in verse 19-19, and said "he was created by a Breath from the spirit into Mary".You have no authority nor argument to base these accusations. Arnold's point of view is based on his interpretation of the text, just as your point of view is based on your interpretation. That's why we discuss. Check your self before throwing around words like shirk and kafir.
Arnold did not say in his post that this is his opinion, rather he said
Begining Qoute
The Quran clearly mentions Jesus's father. In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as "?. And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
In the verse 688, the Arabic words "?. Wa min aaba ihim?" is critical. Let me break down the words Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means ?. And from among their fathers?.
End Qoute
By doing so, he is Misrepresenting the truth of my Book; and God ordered me and all believers to uncover such lies (using the Quran and not our opinion), which in my opinion will create disgust in any Christen, who read it, against the Quran and Moslems.
You have no authority nor argument to base these accusations.
That's why we discuss. Check your self before throwing around words like shirk and kafir.Yourself and others in this Forum took the authority and right to call the Suni and Shia Kaffer and Moshrik. Why because some of them are
Saying about God what he did not say in the Quran.
Canceling out well-established verses using non-well- established ones.
Disbelieving in very well-established verses that contradict their opinion (own understanding of Religion).Well, is that a Double-Slandered Forum confused
By the way, I did not call Arnold Moshrik or Kaffere, rather I warned him several times that if he does that, he is committing the Worse Sin (intentionally or unintentionally)
Peace
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You can twist words very nicely, plus the word Abaahim implies both to father and mother, and so none are left out. Circles circles we go round and round...
You stated the following
Begining Qoute
The Quran clearly mentions Jesus's father. In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as "?. And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
End QouteWhich means Jesus Father (your claim) was righteous.
Then you stated the Opposite
The verse only says that Jesus and his mother were favoured, it does not rule out a father being used to create Jesus. If the father wasn't favoured, then he wouldn't be mentioned in this verse, and he is not, so he wasn't favoured for some reason or not favoured in the way as Jesus and his mother were. Again your logic is faulty by thinking this proves a virginbirth.
Now, when you do that, you are the one who is twisting the truth and not me.
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Do not confuse not being favoured to being bad. The Jews were favoured, this doesn?t mean all the rest on earth were bad...
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)
confused
One time you say that his father was not Favored, and another time you say he was among the righteous.One time you say Abaohom means Fathers (well-established meaning), and one time you say it could be Father or Mother or both (not-well-established meaning).
Now, can you tell why I thing you are twisting the truth. yes
To closeout, your argument that jesus had a Father is not based on well-established Verses; thus, your argument is worth nothing aginest the Well-established verses that Confirm
"Jesus Virgin Birth".May God Lead you to the Truth
Salam -
Peace All
I'd suggest discussion of various takes on Jesus in the quran but if people continue to call each other fakes, & guess at what their affiliations may be, & call them names, and get mad at an alternative opinion do not be suprised if posts are promptly removed and you receive notice from the moderators that you will be banned.
Joe
Moderator
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I guess my question goes to those that rejectthe virgin birth, since for the others the answer would be obvious, my question is, as I already pointed out
"I can't recall that the Quran calls many people continually as "son of X" be it the father or the mother. I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. No Moses son of X every time he is mentioned, Or Solomon, or any other. There must be a reason for it. "
Anybody can give an explanation for that? -
I guess my question goes to those that rejectthe virgin birth, since for the others the answer would be obvious, my question is, as I already pointed out
"I can't recall that the Quran calls many people continually as "son of X" be it the father or the mother. I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. No Moses son of X every time he is mentioned, Or Solomon, or any other. There must be a reason for it. "
Anybody can give an explanation for that?Peace,
Because none of their mothers is the bases of a theology that made them ileh's.
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Peace,
Because none of their mothers is the bases of a theology that made them ileh's.
Do not you think she was made Ileh (the theology) because of
a) her being pregnant by the Holy Spirit (19-17 to 24) (66-12); sun
b) and because of her being the Mother of a spoken baby (17-24 & 4-171); sun
c) and because of her being the mother of a man who made dead people alive (5-110). sun
d) and because people thought she was God's Wife (6-101, 72-3) tempt
Non of the other prophets had a Mother like Jesus Mother, nor Fatherless. Thus they were not called by their mother. sun -
Do not you think she was made Ileh (the theology) because of
a) her being pregnant by the Holy Spirit (19-17 to 24) (66-12); sun
b) and because of her being the Mother of a spoken baby (17-24 & 4-171); sun
c) and because of her being the mother of a man who made dead people alive (5-110). sunPeace,
No, because they made a new form of the Isis-Horus mythology.
http//www.destiner.com/images/eg_isis&horus_egypt_fitzwilliam_museum_cambridge.gif
http//billadamantidis.com/images/icons/mary_jesus.jpg
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Peace,
No, because they made a new form of the Isis-Horus mythology.
http//www.destiner.com/images/eg_isis&horus_egypt_fitzwilliam_museum_cambridge.gif
http//billadamantidis.com/images/icons/mary_jesus.jpg
That is because people thought she was God's Wife (6-101, 72-3)
Now what is your proof from Quran that "they made a new form of the Isis-Horus mythology".
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Yes, because they took over the Isis mythology. Circles...
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Yes, because they took over the Isis mythology. Circles...
Isis was a Goddess of Sun during Ancient Egyptian Time; thus the symbol of Sun that is in the top of Head (in your pictuer) refers to Goddess of Sun and her baby "Hours" and not Mary and Jesus. http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Moreover, Isis had a Husband and Hours had a Father.
Mary and Jesus is a Biblical and Quranic Story, and therefore we should use the Quran and Bible to understand the reason why People thought they were Gods.
Many posts that were posted in this thread, by me and others, provided Verses from Quran and Bible that showed the reason why people thought they were Gods.
Thus, God showed in the Quran why Mary was pregnant without a Male, and why Jesus had no Father; and to tell Jews that Jesus is The "Messiah" that they were waiting for.Again, please let us not mix human stories with God's book stories when speaking about Religion.
http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
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Yes, because they took over the Isis mythology. Circles...
what is your evidence regarding the Qur'an taking over Isis mythology? besides drawing comparisons? Christianity may draw comparisons with paganism because there is a possibility paganism was fused with Gnostic Christianity so that the mob of Rome could accept it as the new religion. However you are saying Islam inherited that paganism and it exists in the Qur'an? I can draw comparisons between Brahma and Allah, or Zoroastrianism and Islam, does not mean it came from the same God or that one is copying the other. I understand though, the main reason you are against the virgin birth is because you see reoccurences with it in the Egyptian Pantheon.
But why do you deny the virgin birth based on comparisons with Christianity? which is a religion based on Christ and then link that to Islam which is a religion about GOD not any of the prophets in other words it should not matter if Jesus was born of a virgin or not. My belief is if God said he was born without a father and God said be and he was then that's that. Both of us cannot prove this, but based on what we read in the Qur'an we come to our own conclusions. If Jesus was not Born of a Virgin...what difference does that make to your religion?
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Isis was a Goddess of Sun during Ancient Egyptian Time; thus the symbol of Sun that is in the top of Head (in your pictuer) refers to Goddess of Sun and her baby "Hours" and not Mary and Jesus. http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Moreover, Isis had a Husband and Hours had a Father.
Mary and Jesus is a Biblical and Quranic Story, and therefore we should use the Quran and Bible to understand the reason why People thought they were Gods.
Many posts that were posted in this thread, by me and others, provided Verses from Quran and Bible that showed the reason why people thought they were Gods.
Thus, God showed in the Quran why Mary was pregnant without a Male, and why Jesus had no Father; and to tell Jews that Jesus is The "Messiah" that they were waiting for.Again, please let us not mix human stories with God's book stories when speaking about Religion.
http//archaicgifts.com/display_item.php?item=ATE-65&refer=google_adwords&kw=isis
Peace,
Saviour-gods born from a virgin and fathered by the most powerful god in their mythology is common in many cultures. The New Testament is not the Injil of Jesus, but a Hadith on how the people wanted to display Jesus years after his death, I have showed many proofs also but this is ignored.
Jesus was born to Christian standards on 25-december, this is a Sun-birthday in mythology. Jesus as being the light as displayed in the Gospel of John comes straight out of the Zend-Avesta, which already proves they saw Jesus as Mithra, the son-god of light who is the saviour of Mankind in mythology. Apollo, Mithra and Horus were all saviour-gods who were born out of a virgin, fathered by the most powerful god and were saviours to Mankind. And they were all sun gods or gods of light. In Matthew Jesus is displayed as being born in a stable, this is directly taken from the Mithra-myth. The 3 "wise-ones" visiting Jesus's birth were Persian Astrologers, again a direct reference to the Persian Mithra myth.
If you believe the Bible to be a reliable source, then this discussion is futile and we must agree to disagree.
And Soof, please read carefully, I never said the story in the Qur'an is wrong. Only the story portrayed by the Christians in the later New Testament. The common interpretation of the Quranic story on Jesus I see as wrong as we are blindly following the Christian pagan myths that tried to mix Judeo-beliefs with pagan Roman-beliefs. The Quran tries to correct the myths around Jesus, not only on the idolatry, but also on the other myths that made him to be seen as a son-god.
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Peace,
Because none of their mothers is the bases of a theology that made them ileh's.
I can't quite follow your argument. In what way does that require the insistence on saying "ibn Maryam" whenever he is named?
Non of the other prophets had a Mother like Jesus Mother, nor Fatherless. Thus they were not called by their mother. sun
Again I quote
"I can't recall that the Quran calls many people continually as "son of X" be it the father or the mother. I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. No Moses son of X every time he is mentioned, Or Solomon, or any other. There must be a reason for it. "
It is not a question of mentioning the mother instead of the father or the mother or the father at all, but of making of it such a big deal, be it the father or the mother.
On the other hand if it was Mariam being a virgin what was the big deal, why in no instance is it plainly stated like Mariam, the virgin, or something to that effect?
Salaam
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Peace,
Saviour-gods born from a virgin and fathered by the most powerful god in their mythology is common in many cultures. The New Testament is not the Injil of Jesus, but a Hadith on how the people wanted to display Jesus years after his death, I have showed many proofs also but this is ignored.
Jesus was born to Christian standards on 25-december, this is a Sun-birthday in mythology. Jesus as being the light as displayed in the Gospel of John comes straight out of the Zend-Avesta, which already proves they saw Jesus as Mithra, the son-god of light who is the saviour of Mankind in mythology. Apollo, Mithra and Horus were all saviour-gods who were born out of a virgin, fathered by the most powerful god and were saviours to Mankind. And they were all sun gods or gods of light. In Matthew Jesus is displayed as being born in a stable, this is directly taken from the Mithra-myth. The 3 "wise-ones" visiting Jesus's birth were Persian Astrologers, again a direct reference to the Persian Mithra myth.
Again, your conclusions are based on non-Quranic proof; thus we will never agree.
If you believe the Bible to be a reliable source, then this discussion is futile and we must agree to disagree.
My first reliable source is the Quran, because that is what I know. But If the Bible agrees with Quran, then it is truth, which I can use to support my conclusion (nothing is wrong with that).
The Quran tries to correct the myths around Jesus, not only on the idolatry, but also on the other myths that made him to be seen as a son-god.
Agree; D
the Quran corrected the Christian's believe of thinking that Jesus and his Mothers are Gods (or Jesus is the son of God), by conferming that"Jesus had no Father" ,
"Jesus is not the Son of God",
"Mary was not God's Wife"'
"Mary was a righteous Woman and did not commit adultery"
"Jesus was created like Adam, without a Father"I hardly think it is a question of calling him by the mothers or the fathers name, but rather of making of it such a big deal. There must be a reason for it. "
I agree; and also I say that God made it a big deal in order to support that Jesus had no Father (or else God would have used it to clarify any future misunderstanding). As I said before, I use "Jesus the Son of Mary" as a strong supporting evidence for the other decisive verses that shows Jesus was created by the Holy Spirit and not a Human Father.
On the other hand if it was Mariam being a virgin what was the big deal, why in no instance is it plainly stated like Mariam, the virgin, or something to that effect?
SalaamIn verse 19-20, there is a strong proof that she was never touched by any human; this proof shows not only she was a Virgin, but also a righteous woman.
Moreover, 66-12 shows that she protected her virginity "Ahsanat Vargah".peace
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In verse 19-20, there is a strong proof that she was never touched by any human
This does not mean after that she was not either. She was not touched by a human up to her encounter with the messenger.
; this proof shows not only she was a Virgin, but also a righteous woman.
What being righteous has to do with being virgin? Married women are not righteous?
Moreover, 66-12 shows that she protected her virginity "Ahsanat Vargah".
peaceThe expression used in the qur'aan for "protecting their private parts (and not virginity) is hafaza not ahsana. From "ahsana" is derived the participle muhsana which means married or linked to marriage.
And as huruf said why doesn't the qur'aan describe her as "the virgin"? In fact in all the verses mentioning Mariam, non describes her as such.
I believe that the comparison of Isa to adam is a very significant one. If one believes that adam was created without parents, then the comparison is 0. Having one parent is nearer to having two than to having none. Adam is the name of our species. Both had the ruuh blown into their precurser before resulting in knowledgeble ceatures
adam ruh blown into bashar to create insan, who was taught the language, knowledge and wisdom
isa ruh blwon into him to create a knowledgeable messenger since he was in the womb. No other mesenger was assigned this task before his birth. -
This does not mean after that she was not either. She was not touched by a human up to her encounter with the messenger.
Are saying that the Messanger was Human or God's Spirit in a form of Human?
What being righteous has to do with being virgin? Married women are not righteous?
Do not you know, from the Quran, that Jews were saying that Mary were pragnent by Committing "Fahsha", having illegal Sex with a male.
Thus, when I said a righteous woman, I ment she never committed "Zina".The expression used in the qur'aan for "protecting their private parts
I agree, but remmber you said that Mary were never touched by human up to her encounter with the messenger; thus, "Ahsant Vargaha" means nobody touched her private part (up to the messanger encounter, as you said, but I do not believe that even the Messanger did, but rather blew into her, as the Quran says)
Both had the ruuh blown into their precurser before resulting in knowledgeble ceatures
adam ruh blown into bashar to create insan, who was taught the language, knowledge and wisdom
isa ruh blwon into him to create a knowledgeable messenger since he was in the womb. No other mesenger was assigned this task before his birth.I think that debate can be done in another thread. I can call it as follow
"Did Adam have a Monkey Father and a Monkey Mother or He was created from Dust"
Untill you or Arnold create it, let us stick to the main topic of the thread.