Msjid Al Haraam
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I understand what you're driving at, however I have to stand on my opinion - as the laws of the land are not "haram / inviolable", they're just the laws of the land and can easily be transgressed by anyone at anytime without necessarily the transgressor suffering the repercussions of breaking the law. How many times have you speeded in your car and not gotten caught????
God's law is not "inviolable", well, physics aside. Quranic law, commandments, etc, are not inviolable. And haram =/= inviolable ONLY.
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You've mis-seen and then misinterpreted what I wrote. I wrote 'God's law'. I didn't write, nor did I mean 'Qur'anic law'. There's a big difference.
- I didn't write that haram ONLY means inviolable. It is one meaning, and a valid meaning that is by no means obscure and is just as valid as the other meanings.
I still stand by what understand and what I've written.
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Br. Ilisa,
God's laws
Which Gods Law is that which doesn't need safe guarding by humans? Is it the laws of nature or something?
Thanks.
Salaams.
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Br. Ilisa,
Which Gods Law is that which doesn't need safe guarding by humans? Is it the laws of nature or something?
Thanks.
Salaams.
Good point. There is no way to "turn pagans from al-masjid al-haram" if the latter is denoted to mean God's inviolable law, because well, pagans exist.
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OPF -First of all, what is your definition of 'pagan'? A person who......?
And simple - to my understanding, God's laws = the laws of 'nature' or of 'physics', and in the end are laws we must respect or suffer sure and often severe consequences, by this are then 'inviolable' in an ultimate sense. There are people who don't recognize this fact - either out of ignorance or arrogance, so do not act by those laws, and so, are the losers by meeting their fate at the end for having believe that they could violate them.
Does it make sense?
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OPF -First of all, what is your definition of 'pagan'? A person who......?
And simple - to my understanding, God's laws = the laws of 'nature' or of 'physics', and in the end are laws we must respect or suffer sure and often severe consequences, by this are then 'inviolable' in an ultimate sense. There are people who don't recognize this fact - either out of ignorance or arrogance, so do not act by those laws, and so, are the losers by meeting their fate at the end for having believe that they could violate them.
Does it make sense?
Salaams Br. Ilisa,
Do not kill, Do not steal........
or the Ten Commandments.
And i think all of them can be violated.
Are These Gods Laws?
Thanks.
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Salaams simple,
(BTW I'm 'Sr'
Those are proscriptions from God for those who know, read, and understand the Qur'an; and, indeed, are easily violable, -- so quite different from 'msjd al haram', eh? People who've never read a 'holy book' can know the 'inviolable laws' through experience and observation -- not true of the ones written in the Qur'an, necessarily.
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Salaams simple,
(BTW I'm 'Sr'
Those are proscriptions from God for those who know, read, and understand the Qur'an; and, indeed, are easily violable, -- so quite different from 'msjd al haram', eh? People who've never read a 'holy book' can know the 'inviolable laws' through experience and observation -- not true of the ones written in the Qur'an, necessarily.
I thought you accepted that haram does not 100% mean "inviolable"? You don't see people physically restrained from eating pork do you?
not true of the ones written in the Qur'an, necessarily.
Are you really so sure of that?
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OPF,
You seem to keep missing my point.
The proscriptions in the Qur'an are NOT what I am referring to. Eating or not eating pork isn't what I'd consider an inviolable law.
Do you understand the difference between 'violable' and 'inviolable'??
violable => Capable of being violated, broken, or injured.
inviolable => Not violable; not susceptible of violence, or of being profaned or corrupted; incapable of being injured; not to be infringed or dishonoured.
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OPF,
You seem to keep missing my point.
The proscriptions in the Qur'an are NOT what I am referring to. Eating or not eating pork isn't what I'd consider an inviolable law.
Do you understand the difference between 'violable' and 'inviolable'??
violable => Capable of being violated, broken, or injured.
inviolable => Not violable; not susceptible of violence, or of being profaned or corrupted; incapable of being injured; not to be infringed or dishonoured.
Sr. Ilisa,
could you elaborate on any laws of the quran which may be inviolable.
Thanks.
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I voted 'other', as I understand it to mean God's laws -- not the laws of the land.
And don't be frustrated- I am not accusing you of anything but just trying to understand this from your perspective.
God Bless.
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OPF,
You seem to keep missing my point.
The proscriptions in the Qur'an are NOT what I am referring to. Eating or not eating pork isn't what I'd consider an inviolable law.
Do you understand the difference between 'violable' and 'inviolable'??
violable => Capable of being violated, broken, or injured.
inviolable => Not violable; not susceptible of violence, or of being profaned or corrupted; incapable of being injured; not to be infringed or dishonoured.
Right.
God's laws = INVIOLABLE. That is to say, the laws of this world, are INVIOLABLE.
And God's laws in the quran are VIOLABLE. But, BOTH these laws, are partially in the quran and the "VIOLABLE" laws are fully in.
So where is the distinction if not in the "VIOLABLE" and "INVIOLABLE"?
So what then, is your al-masjid al-haram? Turn your face to al-masjid al-haram is exactly that. You cannot restrict the term to either of its subsets. And that, is my point. Maybe I misread your original post. Either way, I'm in a good mood today sun
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Greetings,
simple -- No need for apologies, 'accused' was not what I felt, 'consistently misunderstood leading to a sense of frustration' is. I got that you were wanting to understand, but also got that somehow, I wasn't getting through.
OPF -- 'my' 'masjid alharam' =
The seven INVIOLABLE laws in place over the universal micro and macrocosms as we know it
I. THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM
?The All ('God' is MIND; The Universe is Mental.?II. THE PRINCIPLE OF CORRESPONDENCE
?As above, so below; as below, so above.?III. THE PRINCIPLE OF VIBRATION
?Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates.?IV. THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY
?Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.?V. THE PRINCIPLE OF RHYTHM
?Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.?VI. THE PRINCIPLE OF CAUSE AND EFFECT
?Every cause has its Effect; every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.?VII. THE PRINCIPLE OF GENDER
?Gender is in everything; everything has its Masculine and Feminine Principles?
The VIOLABLE laws as outlined in the Qur'an (once again) are proscriptions and prescriptions for those who read, learn and understand the Qur'an after the time that it was revealed to mankind.
The Qur'an has NOT been with mankind since the beginning of time. The seven INVIOLABLE laws outlined above HAVE.
I rest my case.
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Salaams Sr Ilisa,
Does the quran specifically state these as the definition of Masjid Al Haram?
Thanks Sr.
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Are you sure it does not??
Read again and think...... hmm
(From openburhan)
We have seen/understood your face turning around in the sky, so We will turn/enable/appoint you a direction you accept/approve it, so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Respected/Sacred and wherever you were so turn your faces towards it, and that those who were given The Book they know (E) that it is the truth from their Lord, and that God is not with neglecting/disregarding about what they make/do .
And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and that it is the truth (E) from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing .
And from where you got out , so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and wherever you were, so turn your faces towards it, for that the people do not (have) on you aproof/argument except those who were unjust/oppressive from them. So do not fear them and fear Me .And to complete/ perfect My blessings on you, and maybe you (will) be guided.
And fight/kill them, where/when you defeated/caught up with them , and bring/drive them out from where/when they brought/drove you out, and the treason/misguidance (is) stronger the fighting/killing, and do not fight/kill them at the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , until they fight/kill you in it, so if they fought/killed you, so fight/kill them, like that is the disbelievers' reward/reimbursement .
And complete the pilgrimage and the visiting of God's House in other than the four forbidden sacred months to God, so if you were restricted/surrounded , so what became easy/possible , from the offerings , and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its place/destination, so who was from you sick/diseased, or with him mild harm from his head so a ransom/redemption from fasting , or charity, or rituals or methods of worship/offerings , so if you became safe/secure, so who enjoyed with the visiting of God's House in other than the four forbidden/sacred months, to the pilgrimage, so what became easy/possible from the offering, so who does not find, so fasting three days in the pilgrimage, and seven(days) if you returned, that is ten complete (days), that (is) to whom his family was not present/attending, (at) the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred, and fear and obey God, and know that God (is) strong (severe in) the punishment.
They ask/question you about the month the forbidden/sacred, fighting/killing in it, say "Fighting/killing in it (is) big/great and prevention/obstruction from God's road/way and disbelief with (in) Him, and the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred, and bringing/forcing out its people from it (is) bigger/greater at God, and the treason (is) bigger/greater from (worse than) the fighting/killing, and they still/continue (to) fight/kill you until they return you from your religion, if they were able, and who returns (E) from you from his religion, so he dies and he is disbelieving, so those wasted/failed their doings/works in the present world and (in) the end (other life), and those are the owners/company (of) the fire, they are in it immortally/eternally .
You, you those who believed, do not permit/allow God's methods of worship and nor the month the forbidden/sacred, and nor the offering, and nor the sacrificial animals/necklaces , and nor heading to the Forbidden/Sacred House/Home, they ask/desire grace/favour from their Lord, and acceptance/satisfaction, and if you finished pilgrimage so hunt/fish, and (let) not a nation's hatred and animosity make you commit a crime/sin that (because) they prevented you from the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred, that you transgress, and help each other, on the righteousness , and fear and obedience (of God), and do not help each other on the sin/crime and the transgression/aggression , and fear and obey God, that God (is) strong (severe in) the punishment.
And why (is it) for them that God not torture them and they are objecting/preventing/obstructing from the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and they were not its patrons/supporters , that its patrons/supporters , (are not) except the fearing and obeying, and but most of them do not know .
How for the sharers/takers of partners (with God) a promise/contract at God and at His messenger, except those who you promised/made a contract at the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred ,so what they became straight/direct for you, so be straight/direct for them, that God loves/likes the fearing and obeying.
Did you make the pilgrimage's drinking place/cup (water carrying) and tending to/visiting the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred as who believed with God and the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and struggled/exerted in God's way/sake ? They do not become equal/alike at God, and God does not guide the nation the unjust/oppressive.
You, you those who believed but/truly the sharers/takers of partners (with God are) impurity/contamination , so they do not approach/near the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred after this their year, and if you feared need/necessity/poverty, so God will/shall enrich/suffice you from His grace/favour , if He willed/wanted, that God (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
Praise/glory (to) who went/moved/traveled/departed by night with/by His worshipper/slave at night/nightly from the Mosque the Respected/Sacred to the Mosque the Farthest/Remotest/Most Distant which We blessed around/surrounding it, to show him/make him understand from Our verses/signs/evidences, that He is the hearing/listening, the seeing/knowing/understanding .
That those who disbelieved and prevent/obstruct from God's way/path , and the Mosque the Forbidden/Respected/Sacred which We made/put it to/for the people, equal the devoted/dedicated in it, and the apparent (visitor), and who wants/intends in it by deviation/apostasy with injustice/oppression, We make him taste/experience from a painful torture.
They are those who disbelieved and prevented/stopped you from the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and the offering designated/dedicated , that (E) it reaches its place/destination, and where it not for believing men , and believing women you did not know them, that (E) you invade/set foot on them, so strikes you from them harm without knowledge, (it is for) God to enter in His mercy whom He wills/wants, if they separated/dispersed We would have tortured those who disbelieved from them a painful torture.
God had (E) confirmed the dream (of) His messenger, you will enter the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred ,if God willed/wanted/intended, safe/secure, shaving/removing/pulling (hair) (E) (from) your heads, and doing the utmost/shortening, do not fear, so He knew when you did not know, so He made from other than that a near/close opening/victory.
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OPF -- 'my' 'masjid alharam' =
The seven INVIOLABLE laws in place over the universal micro and macrocosms as we know it
I. THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM
The All ('God' is MIND; The Universe is Mental.II. THE PRINCIPLE OF CORRESPONDENCE
As above, so below; as below, so above.III. THE PRINCIPLE OF VIBRATION
Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates.IV. THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY
Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.V. THE PRINCIPLE OF RHYTHM
Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.VI. THE PRINCIPLE OF CAUSE AND EFFECT
Every cause has its Effect; every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.VII. THE PRINCIPLE OF GENDER
Gender is in everything; everything has its Masculine and Feminine Principles
The VIOLABLE laws as outlined in the Qur'an (once again) are proscriptions and prescriptions for those who read, learn and understand the Qur'an after the time that it was revealed to mankind.
The Qur'an has NOT been with mankind since the beginning of time. The seven INVIOLABLE laws outlined above HAVE.
I rest my case.
Google tells me you took your "inviolable laws" from some book called "Kybalion" written in 1908 by three or 1 anonymous people. This you compare to the 'violable laws as outlines in the quran'. Maybe you would like to put up or shut up, let's see a mathematical formalism coming from each of those "inviolable rules" that can predict anything at all. Maybe you would also like to explain how your quoted verses make these 7 rules equivalent to "al masjid al haram".
37 - He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book...
1037 - And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.
The Qur'an has NOT been with mankind since the beginning of time.
May wish to retract that statement.
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Google tells me you took your "inviolable laws" from some book called "Kybalion" written in 1908 by three or 1 anonymous people. This you compare to the 'violable laws as outlines in the quran'. Maybe you would like to put up or shut up, let's see a mathematical formalism coming from each of those "inviolable rules" that can predict anything at all. Maybe you would also like to explain how your quoted verses make these 7 rules equivalent to "al masjid al haram".
What's your point? And why react so roughly? The writers of the 'Kybalion' did not make the laws of the universe. Nor do they claim to have. God did. Any book can note the 'INVIOLABLE LAWS' ('al masjid al haram' of the universe that God has set up. Their noting it, seeing them, realizing that they exist and respecting them doesn't lessen the Laws by any means. I just have likely could have quoted the seven laws from a physics book as well. But I didn't. As for 'mathematical formalism' -- I am not a mathmatician. I'll leave that to those people who work with math. And in the end, I am only sharing my understanding of this topic.
As for retracting my statement. I will not. The Arabic Qur'an has not been in mankind's hands since the beginning of time. You're reacting over things I am neither saying nor implying.
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What's your point? And why react so roughly? The writers of the 'Kybalion' did not make the laws of the universe. Nor do they claim to have. God did. Any book can note the 'INVIOLABLE LAWS' ('al masjid al haram' of the universe that God has set up. Their noting it, seeing them, realizing that they exist and respecting them doesn't lessen the Laws by any means. I just have likely could have quoted the seven laws from a physics book as well. But I didn't. As for 'mathematical formalism' -- I am not a mathmatician. I'll leave that to those people who work with math. And in the end, I am only sharing my understanding of this topic.
As for retracting my statement. I will not. The Arabic Qur'an has not been in mankind's hands since the beginning of time. You're reacting over things I am neither saying nor implying.
Sorry but the book has. Through cross reference the quran must also have since
4143 - Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the messengers before you; surely your Lord is the Lord of forgiveness and the Lord of painful retribution.
But, but, it's an Arabic quran!! - Read on.
4144 - And if We had appointed it a quran in a foreign tongue they would assuredly have said If only its verses were expounded (so that we might understand)? What! A foreign tongue and an Arab? .....
So there is no such thing as an "Arabic Quran". There is a quran, in arabic for reasons specified above, not an "Arabic Quran". You may swallow your words now, it's not hard, I do it all the time when I'm wrong or when my views don't agree with clear quranic truth.
What's your point? And why react so roughly? The writers of the 'Kybalion' did not make the laws of the universe. Nor do they claim to have. God did. Any book can note the 'INVIOLABLE LAWS' ('al masjid al haram' of the universe that God has set up. Their noting it, seeing them, realizing that they exist and respecting them doesn't lessen the Laws by any means. I just have likely could have quoted the seven laws from a physics book as well. But I didn't. As for 'mathematical formalism' -- I am not a mathmatician. I'll leave that to those people who work with math. And in the end, I am only sharing my understanding of this topic.
I'm sorry but comparing a book written by anonymous to the quran and saying the quran is weaker in this regard about a meaning of a word taken from the quran itself = rotfl. The fundamental fallacy in your thinking is that al-masjid al-haram is defined as the "inviolable laws" of the universe which "can be found in any book" - except the quran, which is fully detailed and will contradict if a meaning is out of place (482), perhaps? To get more to the point, you haven't proved that your idea of "al-masjid al-haram" can honestly be put into the quran, WITHOUT contradiction.
Now, the "7 laws". These are so vague that anyone can twist them to their understanding. Which is useless, ,which is astrology, which is just ridiculous. Which is why I asked you to put it formally, in mathematical language, where there is no room for misinterpretation. It doesn't matter where you got these laws from, to be honest, as long as you can make them falsifiable (having made the claim that they are "inviolable". So, in other words, I am asking you to make it easy to prove, that your 7 laws are inviolable (the easiest way being to put it as a formalism). THEN, to prove that the quran sanctions these as "al-masjid al-haram". Good luck. Shouldn't be too hard at all if this really is "al-masjid al-haram", should it?
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OPF
I did not put the 'kybalion' OVER the Qur'an. (BTW the kybalion has nothing to do with astrology.) And I did NOT say the Qur'an 'was weaker' than the kybalion. Bite your tongue!
If you would have read my posts in other topics in the past you would know that I have stated that I understand that God's laws of creation are the clear ayat that are out there for all to read and see. This is my point. This was my original point. Still is my point.
You saying that the Qur'an must 'sanction' the laws of the universe is silly. They are what God is telling us to think about and see in so many places. A person does not need to prove anything mathmatically, you just live your life and learn. This has been around since the beginning of time (as I stated before). You're missing my point all together.
I'm sorry OPF, you're just not getting it and I certainly cannot make the 'blind' see.
So.....you 'see' it your way, and I'll see it mine, and in the end, the Truth will prevail. giveup