another simple question to gauge traditional mindset...
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peace all,
Following on from
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14837.0If ever in a discussion with a Traditional Muslim, to gauge the mindset, ask them this
On the one hand, it is "Sunnah" or recommended for Muslim men to grow a beard, yet on the other hand, cleanliness is very important for a Muslim... tell me, what will result in less dirt/grime/germs/dust having a beard or not having a beard?
(Now, it is obvious to any man that not having a beard will mean less dirt/dust/grime/germs on one's face/skin, yet apparently this is best practice and contradicts the cleanliness issue. Furthermore, there is a contradiction in which armpit/pubic hair is meant to be cut short, yet not facial hair)
You may get some varied responses, but it is a reasonably quick tester to see what the person's mindset you are speaking with is like.
Try it.
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Salam,
you can't entirely gauge a persons mindset on that. Because in every single aspect of sunnah and islam their is opinions. I know people who say yes it's a sunnah but its not an obligation hence no reason to grow a beard. apparently some people say a beard is to be as long as the clenched fist upon the chin. anyway if i was considered traditional I'd say during wudu you wash your beard 5 times so it would be cleanly maintained.
did you try it?
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Wakas
Before I reply to you
Can you tell me what is a Traditional Muslim?I have heared westereners all the time chanting "Fundamentalist" Muslims and now Muslims Chanting "Traditional" Muslims.
wakas
On the one hand, it is "Sunnah" or recommended for Muslim men to grow a beard, yet on the other hand, cleanliness is very important for a Muslim... tell me, what will result in less dirt/grime/germs/dust having a beard or not having a beard?
I am amazed to learn from you that;
Muhammad, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them all; were Dirty and Unclean. -
peace Sarah,
I did not speak about gauging "entirely" anything. It was a follow up, from my previous question which I referenced, clearly implying I'm not gauging "entirely" anything based on one question.
Anyways, onto your points...
I know there is difference of opinion, on whether a beard is obligatory or not, and I can understand why you mention this point, but it is irrelevant.
The question is simple which will have less dust/dirt/grime/germs/etc beard or no beard? Even if the person you are speaking with says a beard is not obligatory, the question still remains.It does not matter if it is a short beard the length of one's fist as you say, it will still have more dust/dirt/grime/germs/etc than no beard.
If you gave me the following response during wudu you wash your beard 5 times so it would be cleanly maintained. , I'd reply "so which contains less dirt/dust/grime/germs/etc beard or no beard?"
What I am more interested in is if the person will admit to a flaw, albeit small. Not many do from my experience, and to me, this is telling.
Yes, I have tried it, in forums. Some cited evidence to show clean shaven was not healthy either due to possible infection of cuts (even though I never said clean shaven is the alternative I was suggesting) so it was agreed with this person that very short stubble was most clean. Vast majority ridicule the question/author and do not answer. Like I said, try it... there is nothing more powerful than seeing the truth for yourself.
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Raj-ah,
A Traditional Muslim is one who primarily follows tradition/culture, and capitalising of the word "Muslim" implies it is more of a title/label than a description (as is its original Classical Arabic meaning).
I am amazed to learn from you that;
Muhammad, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them all; were Dirty and Unclean.This is a perfect demonstration of what I am talking about. Firstly, cite your evidence that they had a beard. Secondly, saying method A is better than method B is only a specific comment with respect to the better method, that is all. It is like saying showering 3 times per day is more clean than showering 2 times, does that mean the person showering 3 times per day is calling the 2 times per day person unclean/dirty? Obviously not. To say they are shows an illogical response. The follow up question then is, what is behind the illogical response? The answer to this question usually reveals the true nature of the person's beliefs.
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Salam,
Respectfully.Just ask them this where in The Quran does it say Thou Shall Not Cut The Beard!
Because they always run towards hadith books, that alone means that such a person does not believe in The Power of God. God is The Most Powerful and He does NOT forget.Peace.
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Rajah
Quote
I am amazed to learn from you that;
Muhammad, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them all; were Dirty and Unclean.Wakas
This is a perfect demonstration of what I am talking about. Firstly, cite your evidence that they had a beard.
Dear Wakas
You are talking about something you have no command over, trying to gauge a persons mind through a senseless question.All the paintings available of Jesus and Moses are in beard, The movies made on them after extensive research work done on their lives show them with the beard.
"Son of my mother do not take hold of my beard or take me by the head - I was afraid that you would say that I have caused a division among the tribe of Israel and had not paid attention to what you said."
Conversation between Haroon and Musa as recorded in Quran.Have you ever seen orthodox Jews having beards? why do they have? They all including the prophets of Allah who had beards were dirty and unclean according to your logic.
Remember No one is supporting the beard here but your approach towards the issue is just so negative, without having proper research on the subject.
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads; neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Leviticus 1927
In the following Christian writings
And although it is written, "Ye shall not mar the figure of your beard," he plucks out his beard, and dresses his hair; and does he now study to please any one who displeases God? St. Cyprian of Carthage, Treatise III On The Lapsed, AD 250Are these evidences enough or do you live in the world of OPF.
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All of a sudden, movies, the Bible, and what other people do is a valid source )
Are these evidences enough or do you live in the world of OPF.
rotfl
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Raj-ah, if the strength of your argument is to cite paintings by people not there at the time and Hollywood films, then that tells me a lot. Secondly, your quote of Quran involving Aaron, shows he had a beard (I've pointed this out on the forum myself before) but he was not included in your list in your original post, so is irrelevant. Furthermore, you completely ignored the second ppoint I made... again, showing no response, tells me a lot.
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This thread is a really good illustration. It's like an example, expounding on the concept in the first post and brought to life in vivid colour. kudos to the director for using the innovative bsg style reality camera. (Were the film/tv/print associations too subtle? I thought so).
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Peace Rajah,
Can you tell me what is a Traditional Muslim?
I have heared westereners all the time chanting "Fundamentalist" Muslims and now Muslims Chanting "Traditional" Muslims.A Traditionalist Muslim (Capital M) is someone who supposedly follows "traditions" of what they believe is Islam (capital I). Fortunately, there are no Traditionalist Muslims since such traditions would obligate people to do really bad things and would turn society into a medievel mess (think Taliban).
Rajah, you are not as Traditionalist as you think. On another thread you said kissing the Black Stone and prostrating at a foot print and the supposed prophet tomb are corruptions. Try going to those places and proclaim loudly what you said here on this forum, you would surely be beaten up or maybe even stoned to death by an angry mob of those who are more "traditionalists Muslims". At this point, you have more in common with Wakas and most people here and you are more united with us than with so-called Traditionalist Muslims. Think about it. The truth that you said about the corruptions causes you to be more distant from them and closer to us. This is empirical verification of the real direction towards the truth.
Peace,
Ayman
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(Now, it is obvious to any man that not having a beard will mean less dirt/dust/grime/germs on one's face/skin, yet apparently this is best practice and contradicts the cleanliness issue. Furthermore, there is a contradiction in which armpit/pubic hair is meant to be cut short, yet not facial hair)
Peace brother Wakas,
Maybe a little off topic, but I would like to share that having a beard, moustaches and all other hair is more naturally safer and cleaner to the skin than shaving.
As with all things, I am sure that God lets all hair grow for purposes and I thank God for it.
Cutting short is probably no problem, but shaving and all other anti-hair techniques would stop the hair from doing its duty to protect the skin, like help protect the pores and protect germs from coming directly to the skin - the germs, pollution, etc are trapped at the hair instead and hair keeps on coming out to replace/push out the old. Hair is also a natural dry lubricator for rubbing areas of the body, protects heat loss, and even UV rays. It is also a natural mark for differentiation of sex
As with all things, the middle way is best, like nails, if your nail is too long, it'll collect germs, if it's too deeply cut then it's hard to handle things and gets injured, infected easily.
Shaving would make small injuries to the skin that germs would come and stick there directly since there's food for them at the cuts.
Although this sikh article is quite biased but I find it has many interesting points
http//www.searchsikhism.com/hair4.htmlSimply think of what is Natural = according to God's design.
Peace,
Zidane. -
Peace Rajah,
Quote from Raj-ah on January 23, 2008, 031443 AM
Can you tell me what is a Traditional Muslim?
I have heared westereners all the time chanting "Fundamentalist" Muslims and now Muslims Chanting "Traditional" Muslims.A Traditionalist Muslim (Capital M) is someone who supposedly follows "traditions" of what they believe is Islam (capital I). Fortunately, there are no Traditionalist Muslims since such traditions would obligate people to do really bad things and would turn society into a medievel mess (think Taliban).
Salaam to you too Ayman
I agree with what you are saying, I even agreed with Wakas for what he said regarding a Tradional Muslim, but the way he is treating them or labelling them is not acceptable to me.
Ayman
Rajah, you are not as Traditionalist as you think. On another thread you said kissing the Black Stone and prostrating at a foot print and the supposed prophet tomb are corruptions. Try going to those places and proclaim loudly what you said here on this forum, you would surely be beaten up or maybe even stoned to death by an angry mob of those who are more "traditionalists Muslims". At this point, you have more in common with Wakas and most people here and you are more united with us than with so-called Traditionalist Muslims. Think about it. The truth that you said about the corruptions causes you to be more distant from them and closer to us. This is empirical verification of the real direction towards the truth.
I never think that I am a person who follows Traditions blind foldely.
The only thing I was trying to point out was that THE WAY Wakas is trying to treat Fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who Follow Traditions is not FAIR.Thanks for understanding and your comments.
Salam.
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Wakas
Raj-ah, if the strength of your argument is to cite paintings by people not there at the time and Hollywood films, then that tells me a lot. Secondly, your quote of Quran involving Aaron, shows he had a beard (I've pointed this out on the forum myself before) but he was not included in your list in your original post, so is irrelevant. Furthermore, you completely ignored the second ppoint I made... again, showing no response, tells me a lot.
Mr. Wakas as supposedly you live in a European or American country, You should know that a Movie made on any historical figure is not just in air, extensive research is carried out and I will give you references for that.
I have quoted Quran and Bible and You have said nothing on this. We will come to 2nd point but let us decide about the first point.
I said Muhammad, Moses, Jesus and other Prophets grew beard and you were asking for the evidence, correct?
What type of evidence you need? from your post what I feel is only one who can satisfy you is one of those Prophets coming back to this world and having a debate with you! If you need anything less then that I am ready to provide that.
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peace,
Cutting short is probably no problem, but shaving and all other anti-hair techniques would stop the hair from doing its duty to protect the skin, like help protect the pores and protect germs from coming directly to the skin - the germs, pollution, etc are trapped at the hair instead and hair keeps on coming out to replace/push out the old. Hair is also a natural dry lubricator for rubbing areas of the body, protects heat loss, and even UV rays. It is also a natural mark for differentiation of sex
The skin is a superb natural barrier to germs, so it doesn't matter if they reach the skin like they would on other parts of one's face, it is only a problem if there are cuts on the skin, and like you and I said, very short stubble in this case is probably best. I dont see how rubbing areas of the body applies here, and the heat loss and UV argument whilst technically correct, should take into account the parts of the face that are uncovered and thus would have to show the bearded area is more at risk to these in some way. Short stubble seems a good differentiator between sexes too. The main point however is to do with cleanliness.
...but the way he is treating them or labelling them is not acceptable to me.
Interesting. Asking a simple question is somehow treating them (harshly?) or labelling them.
I have quoted Quran and Bible and You have said nothing on this.
Perhaps you should re-read, as I did comment on your reference from Quran.
I said Muhammad, Moses, Jesus and other Prophets
Again, I recommend re-reading what you wrote, then perhaps you will accept what you wrote. If you still disagree, simply re-quote yourself for all to see, IF you speak the truth.
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Peace Wakas,
Thanks for your explanations.
peace,
The skin is a superb natural barrier to germs, so it doesn't matter if they reach the skin like they would on other parts of one's face, it is only a problem if there are cuts on the skin, and like you and I said, very short stubble in this case is probably best. I dont see how rubbing areas of the body applies here, and the heat loss and UV argument whilst technically correct, should take into account the parts of the face that are uncovered and thus would have to show the bearded area is more at risk to these in some way. Short stubble seems a good differentiator between sexes too. The main point however is to do with cleanliness.(In rubbing, I was not talking about beard, I meant hair in other parts of the body... armpit for example. Heat loss, I meant hair in general...)
Yes, it's interesting that not all parts of the face are covered with beard, and the women don't have beards too. The main benefit as I see upto now is differentiation between the sexes. I am sure that God has reasons that ha made them grow and God surely knows more than us - and He made it grow on those parts of the face of men.
I would like to re-state that I am sure that God made men have beards grow for reasons and it's not natural at all to try to get-rid of it or not happy with it. I submit to God so I also happy with His will that He made beard grow on me.
Although I never saw a command to keep a beard anywhere in the Quran, I never saw a command to shave it too. Therefore, I would not say that you must have beards or you must not have long beards because it might be "more dirty".
I would not say long beard is dirty if you treat it right - in the same way that I wouldn't say women or men with long hair are dirty - it depends on how the person cleans it.
Like Rajah pointed out, even a good person stated in Quran on a great mission for God have beards that are grab-able (long enough to grab = long) like Haroon
2094 He said "O son of my mother, do not grab me by my beard nor by my head. I feared that you would say that I separated between the Children of Israel, and that I did not follow your orders."
I just want to re-state here that it is natural that beards grow and I am sure that God made them grow for reasons.
I also want to re-state here that long beard doesn't mean "more dirty".
Peace,
Zidane. -
Zidane
I would like to re-state that I am sure that God made men have beards grow for reasons and it's not natural at all to try to get-rid of it or not happy with it. I submit to God so I also happy with His will that He made beard grow on me.
Although I never saw a command to keep a beard anywhere in the Quran, I never saw a command to shave it too. Therefore, I would not say that you must have beards or you must not have long beards because it might be "more dirty".
I would not say long beard is dirty if you treat it right - in the same way that I wouldn't say women or men with long hair are dirty - it depends on how the person cleans it.
Like Rajah pointed out, even a good person stated in Quran on a great mission for God have beards that are grab-able (long enough to grab = long) like Haroon
2094 He said "O son of my mother, do not grab me by my beard nor by my head. I feared that you would say that I separated between the Children of Israel, and that I did not follow your orders."
I just want to re-state here that it is natural that beards grow and I am sure that God made them grow for reasons.
I also want to re-state here that long beard doesn't mean "more dirty".
Peace,
Zidane.May Allah be pleased with you.
Wakas
Interesting. Asking a simple question is somehow treating them (harshly?) or labelling them.
You are just not sensing the gravity of your question and the hidden mock in it. Just take a look again at your question and your intentions, with a cool mind and you will feel the truth.
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Peace Raj-ah,
You are just not sensing the gravity of your question and the hidden mock in it. Just take a look again at your question and your intentions, with a cool mind and you will feel the truth.
Agreed.
For me, such a question as suggested in the start of this topic has a clear sense of mocking and negativity.
It is probably not a good way to promote/suggest people to Monotheism.
It is probably better to discuss with people in the best possible manners, with respect and in peace.
May God Guide.
Zidane. -
Although I never saw a command to keep a beard anywhere in the Quran, I never saw a command to shave it too. Therefore, I would not say that you must have beards or you must not have long beards because it might be "more dirty".
I don't recall seeing in the Quran that hair of any kind needs to be cut or shaved, or grown short or long. Seems to me that how we want to maintain our hair is up to us... either way is acceptable.
peace,
dotty
