Was the Qur'an the Only Revelation That The Prophet Received From Allah
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Peace "albruni",
If this is the problem then i have the answer for it......
The earth is spear , the sun is spinning will you say this is written here and there so will not believe it - No because you will say that its prove that its spear and spinning similarly the hadhis science is very much proved and anybody with knowledge of the science of hadhis can find out which is fabricated ,which is sahi,which one chain is broken ,wether the person is hones or not etc..JK- Ok but the point is if not all hadith ENCLOSED IN A BOOK are authentic then WE need to do the job of picking and choosing. And thats exactly the problem. In that case we dont need religion at all. We could just pick up random statements from various smart people all over the world and analyse which make sense and follow them. WE NEED A FULL TRUSTWORTHY SCRIPTURE. Thats exactly the point. Dont you get this?
outstanding individuals of incredible memory-skills and analytical expertise, who journeyed tirelessly to collect hundreds of thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of precious wisdom of their Messenger (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the enormous number of 'ulama', the Companions and those who followed their way, who had taught in various centers of learning and helped to transmit the legacy of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) - all of this achieved through precise attention to the words narrated and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of Hadith. Action being the best way to preserve teachings, the renewer's of Islam also revived the practice of the blessed authentic Sunnah.
JK- How do you know they were outstanding individuals? Infact your being biased since independent researchers dont at all agree that Bukhari and co were any sort of outstanding individuals. Furthermore theres zero archaelogical evidence to back your claim up. Neither do we know anything about Muhammad's family from independent archaelogical reserach as yet. This claim is thus complete bullcrap.
Its not biased its all Authentic.
Wasalam,
A.AlbruniJK- This is nothing more than a faith based claim with no evidence whatsoever. GOD Bless!
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Peace "albruni",
Salam Jonney,
Why you dont give damn about chain of narration ? Now you have started saying that "dont know whether the Prophet was always honest in his life or not" when quran says You (O Prophet) are indeed endowed with a great character (684)
Please jonney dont include your self ih this verse 2202 - Among people there are those, who without knowledge, dispute about Allah and follow every rebel satan.
May god guide us to the straight path.
Wasalam,
A.AlbruniJK- Does being endowed with a great character mean that one could never lie? This is ridiculous since even the most OVERALL GOOD AND JUST people do come into situations of fear and anger where they are tempted to lie and they do. So please stop this nonsense and think before you throw verses at me. GOD Bless!
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Peace "albruni",
JK- The separate revelation or rather insiration as i said was for him and for his time only. Theres no way we can proof what that is right now and should GOD have wanted us to follow that He would have included that in the Quran. And it has defintely nothing to do with explanining the Quran. The Quran EXPLAINS ITSELF and this is evident from the many verses which repeat the same evident but adding more details.
Salam brother,
Brother don't get confused.. You did agree that there was separate revelation for the messenger. I have explained from quran stating that propet Mohamed was send to all mankind so the revelation will not limit to his life time.
To prove that GOD wants to follow , i have given many verses which ask to follow the messanger also showed how scientifically its preserved , I showed you the verse were GOD says he will explain the Quran to prophet.
So please don't run in circles.we are hear to understand the true religion not to prove ourself.JK- Ok tell me what about the stoning verse for married adulterers which according to the hadith was EATEN BY A GOAT. Aint this a sick joke of the scholars accepting this? They claim that GOD is able to abrogate His verses by a goat even. So now we ask if that verse is supposed to be abrgated, why do Muslims still follow and practive it? Theyr clearly contradicting themselves here on this issue.
Also the Quran mentions "la ilaaha ilallah" four/five times BUT nowhere in connection with "Muhammad rasoolullah" even in the very sura named Muhammad verse 19. This is considered the most important pillar in Islam and yet it is not stated in the Quran. I challenge you to show me the shahaadah ads you Muslims recite it in the Quran. IMO that even contradicts the Quran because it clearly states to make NO DISTINCTION between the messengers and by repeatedly mentioning his name along with GOD's to the exclusion of all others your doing just that. GOD Bless!Its a valid argumentI also read the whole article http//www.quranic.org/quran_article/26/rajm_stoning_to_death.htmk
This problem arise due to lack of knowledge about approaching Hadith.Let me brief about this- Although the stoning punishment was invented in Abbasid era, it was never unanimously approved. The contemporary Sunnah scholars admit that Al-Mu?tazala and Rejectionist (Khawarej) rejected the stoning. (Sayyed Sabiq, Sunnah Scholarship, 2/347, the Encyclopedia of Scholarship based on the four dogmas, 5/69 written by Abdel-Rahman Al-Jazzeeri).
- The oldest narrations about stoning were mentioned in Nowata of Malik in a narration by Mohammad Ibn Hassan Sheibani. The narration started as (Malik told us that Yahya Ibn Saeed heard Saeed Ibn Mossayyab said When Omar Ibn Al-Khattab came from Mina ?etc). That means the original narrator of this anecdote was Saeed Ibn Mossayyab. He claimed that Omar delivered an oration claiming the existence of the stoning verse in Qur?an, but it was omitted. However, Ibn Mossayyab was two years old when Omar was assassinated. How can a crawling baby telling stories about Omar. So, it is impossible for Ibn Mossayyab to be the narrator. Also, it is impossible for Omar to say something like that. It means that Omar accused the Qur?an of being forged and this is blasphemy. God, Almighty, said ?We revealed this Qur?an, and we are protecting it.? Al-Hijr 9. So, as far as the subject, this narration is false.
3.There is another anecdote in Mowata no. 692. This anecdote is completely false under all measures. Malik narrated this anecdote from Ibn Shehab (Al-Zuhry) who narrated this by himself. Al-Zuhry lived towards the end of the Umayyad era and was one of the followers who never met the Prophet, peace be upon him, or lived his time. Even though we read the following in Mowata (Malik told us that Ibn Shehab told us that a man admitted committing adultery during the reign of the Prophet. The man testified against himself and was ordered to be stoned. Ibn Shehab said For this, one can incriminate himself by self-confession. - The narrations were iterated after Malik. Shafi?e, Bukhari and Moslem wrote them. Sometimes these narrations claim that certain verses in Qur?an did exist and omitted. Bukhari, died yr 256 A.H., narrated from Omar Ibn Khattab, who died 200 years before him, about verses that were omitted from Qur?an and Omar declared them late. Some of these narrations claim that the stoning rite was stemmed from the monkey?s society before Islam. Bukhari narrated in his anecdote no. 3560? Naeem Ibn Hmmad told us about Hasheem about Amr Ibn Meimoun saying I saw before Islam a bunch of monkeys stoning an adulterous monkey, and I did the same with them. It seems that the monkeys? society before Islam was ahead in applying the stoning. Anybody asked about this monkey?s marital status? Did the narrator discuss this issue with the Clergy of the monkeys and how to prove the occurrence of adultery? Did the monkeys use four witnesses? All of these narrations contradicting themselves.
- Contradiction in narrations
Contradiction is the main characteristic of Narrations. Two kinds of contradictory characters appear in narrations partial contradiction in the details of the same story, and major contradiction among different stories. As an example of the latter, Bukhari produced a narration about a man came to the Prophet and admitted committing adultery. The prophet avoided him. The prayer time came and the man witnessed the prayer with the Prophet. He reiterated his confession to the Prophet and demanded to be punished. The prophet said to him did you not pray with us? The man said yes. The Prophet said God forgave your sin. This means that prayer forgives the sins and negates the stoning. This is a stark contradiction with other narrations that are damped with the stoned victims? blood.
While Bukhari, Shafi?e and Malik narrations emphasized that the punishment for the married adulterer is only stoning, we found that Moslem narrated repeated stories emphasizing in them that the Prophet said The punishment of the single is 100 lashes and one year exile. The married punishment is 100 lashes then stoning. The danger in these narrations that it made the punishment for the married adulterer was 100 lashes before being killed stoning. This is another contradiction with other narrations.
These stories and anecdotes were written in the books of narrations to become major source of legislation for Moslems. Especially, when the scholars and the storytellers celebrated them and everyone re-iterated these narrations as ?real? and ?rites?. This was emphasized by the application of these narrations that sent many men and women victims to death based on legislation God never authorized.
About shahaadah. Shahaadah is the belife we have declaration "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.",I understand you dont have any problem in accepting the first line which says "There is no god but Allah, You have only problem in the second phase which says "and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah."
As mentioned earlier, Islam teaches that the Prophets were the best of humanity, specifically chosen by God due to their excellent qualities specifically to preach the message of God to humanity.
?The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ?We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers.?? (2285)
Its a declaration were we accept that There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.
Nobody can disagree with this statement because both has been mention in quran which is true.
I agree that we should not make any DISTINCTION between the messengers and we are not.Wasalam,
A.Albruni -
Peace "albruni",
Salam brother,
Brother don't get confused.. You did agree that there was separate revelation for the messenger. I have explained from quran stating that propet Mohamed was send to all mankind so the revelation will not limit to his life time.
To prove that GOD wants to follow , i have given many verses which ask to follow the messanger also showed how scientifically its preserved , I showed you the verse were GOD says he will explain the Quran to prophet.
So please don't run in circles.we are hear to understand the true religion not to prove ourself.JK- The Quran came through Muhammad's mouth and all the explanations that issued from his mouth due to GOD's inspiration which are preserved are also in their SO NOBODY IS DENYING THAT THE MESSENGER IS SENT AS A MERCY FOR ALL TIMES VIA QURAN. Im trying to make this point clear to you once and for all. There is NO proof that GOD meant any revelation given to the Prophet, BESIDES the Quran, to be preserved otherwise why not include it in the Quran or make a separate perfectly preseved Scripture out of them. In that case id have no problem accepting this.
Its a valid argumentI also read the whole article http//www.quranic.org/quran_article/26/rajm_stoning_to_death.htmk
This problem arise due to lack of knowledge about approaching Hadith.Let me brief about this- Although the stoning punishment was invented in Abbasid era, it was never unanimously approved. The contemporary Sunnah scholars admit that Al-Mu?tazala and Rejectionist (Khawarej) rejected the stoning. (Sayyed Sabiq, Sunnah Scholarship, 2/347, the Encyclopedia of Scholarship based on the four dogmas, 5/69 written by Abdel-Rahman Al-Jazzeeri).
- The oldest narrations about stoning were mentioned in Nowata of Malik in a narration by Mohammad Ibn Hassan Sheibani. The narration started as (Malik told us that Yahya Ibn Saeed heard Saeed Ibn Mossayyab said When Omar Ibn Al-Khattab came from Mina ?etc). That means the original narrator of this anecdote was Saeed Ibn Mossayyab. He claimed that Omar delivered an oration claiming the existence of the stoning verse in Qur?an, but it was omitted. However, Ibn Mossayyab was two years old when Omar was assassinated. How can a crawling baby telling stories about Omar. So, it is impossible for Ibn Mossayyab to be the narrator. Also, it is impossible for Omar to say something like that. It means that Omar accused the Qur?an of being forged and this is blasphemy. God, Almighty, said ?We revealed this Qur?an, and we are protecting it.? Al-Hijr 9. So, as far as the subject, this narration is false.
3.There is another anecdote in Mowata no. 692. This anecdote is completely false under all measures. Malik narrated this anecdote from Ibn Shehab (Al-Zuhry) who narrated this by himself. Al-Zuhry lived towards the end of the Umayyad era and was one of the followers who never met the Prophet, peace be upon him, or lived his time. Even though we read the following in Mowata (Malik told us that Ibn Shehab told us that a man admitted committing adultery during the reign of the Prophet. The man testified against himself and was ordered to be stoned. Ibn Shehab said For this, one can incriminate himself by self-confession. - The narrations were iterated after Malik. Shafi?e, Bukhari and Moslem wrote them. Sometimes these narrations claim that certain verses in Qur?an did exist and omitted. Bukhari, died yr 256 A.H., narrated from Omar Ibn Khattab, who died 200 years before him, about verses that were omitted from Qur?an and Omar declared them late. Some of these narrations claim that the stoning rite was stemmed from the monkey?s society before Islam. Bukhari narrated in his anecdote no. 3560? Naeem Ibn Hmmad told us about Hasheem about Amr Ibn Meimoun saying I saw before Islam a bunch of monkeys stoning an adulterous monkey, and I did the same with them. It seems that the monkeys? society before Islam was ahead in applying the stoning. Anybody asked about this monkey?s marital status? Did the narrator discuss this issue with the Clergy of the monkeys and how to prove the occurrence of adultery? Did the monkeys use four witnesses? All of these narrations contradicting themselves.
- Contradiction in narrations
Contradiction is the main characteristic of Narrations. Two kinds of contradictory characters appear in narrations partial contradiction in the details of the same story, and major contradiction among different stories. As an example of the latter, Bukhari produced a narration about a man came to the Prophet and admitted committing adultery. The prophet avoided him. The prayer time came and the man witnessed the prayer with the Prophet. He reiterated his confession to the Prophet and demanded to be punished. The prophet said to him did you not pray with us? The man said yes. The Prophet said God forgave your sin. This means that prayer forgives the sins and negates the stoning. This is a stark contradiction with other narrations that are damped with the stoned victims? blood.
While Bukhari, Shafi?e and Malik narrations emphasized that the punishment for the married adulterer is only stoning, we found that Moslem narrated repeated stories emphasizing in them that the Prophet said The punishment of the single is 100 lashes and one year exile. The married punishment is 100 lashes then stoning. The danger in these narrations that it made the punishment for the married adulterer was 100 lashes before being killed stoning. This is another contradiction with other narrations.
These stories and anecdotes were written in the books of narrations to become major source of legislation for Moslems. Especially, when the scholars and the storytellers celebrated them and everyone re-iterated these narrations as ?real? and ?rites?. This was emphasized by the application of these narrations that sent many men and women victims to death based on legislation God never authorized.
JK- So you agree that the stoning punishment is nonsense. Thats a good step forward. However i must tell you that by this you too are going against the majority of "Islamic scholars" in the world and might even be considered a heretic. Maybe youll one day give up hadith besides Quran as being Divine law for us in totality.
About shahaadah. Shahaadah is the belife we have declaration "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.",I understand you dont have any problem in accepting the first line which says "There is no god but Allah, You have only problem in the second phase which says "and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah."
As mentioned earlier, Islam teaches that the Prophets were the best of humanity, specifically chosen by God due to their excellent qualities specifically to preach the message of God to humanity.
?The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ?We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers.?? (2285)
Its a declaration were we accept that There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.
Nobody can disagree with this statement because both has been mention in quran which is true.
I agree that we should not make any DISTINCTION between the messengers and we are not.Wasalam,
A.AlbruniJK- Dont forget Isa, Moses and others too are mentioned in the Quran as being messengers but never have any of them been singled out in the shahaadah. Why include ONLY Muhammad? I know the ridiculous claim which some make that since Muhammad was the last prophet and messenger, the latter of which he was not(hes the last prophet but not last messenger but that is another topic), his name would confirm all other prophets. But this is nonsense. It is NOT HIS NAME which confirms the previous prophets BUT THE MESSAGE HE DELIVERED. Why dont you say "La ilaaha ilallah wal Quranu Kitaabullah/Kalaam ullah/wahi ullah" for instance? That would include Muhammad and all the prophets without singling out his name? But NO, the emphasis has to be on the human Muhammad himself. You see now where the problem lies? regarding the Prophets necessarily being the best of humanity, this too is nonsensible and unsuported by the Quran. There are a number of reasons why a certain person is chosen as a prophet or messenger. These could include his acceptance amongst his tribe, his skill to talk, GOD testing people whether theyd except the most orinary man amongst them too provided he delievers the truth coming with evidence etc etc. It is not necessarily limited to his character and other people may have qualities which are better than th Porphet as a human. GOD Bless!
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Peace "albruni"
JK- I believe i explained this in the other post that the Quran is self explanatory and only the Quran has scientific evidence of being accurate and consistent.
I too have explained in my other post that Prophets has been send to explain the Quran and the explanation is preserved in hadith with highly accurate and scientific manner.
JK- It is nonsense to claim that GOD taught some explicit ritualistic prayer to the Prophet outside the Quran. What is meant here is ACCORDING TO THE NATURE OF HUMANS. When wer using our hearts and minds to focus on GOD it is He Who is etaching us and in peace times wed naturally prolong our prayers and in times of war and uproar wed shorten them. Also our underatdning of prayer continuously evolves and so GOD is continuously teaching us what we never knew. Many articles have been written on salat at this forum. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13270.0
Brother, it?s not me who claims, I have mention the verse were god claims so please beware of your wordings. Interestingly you have no proof for this ?NATURE OF HUMANS?.I don?t find any relevant article so you read all the articles and reply me back.
JK- I explained the term BYN in one of my posts above already. Please refer to that. Regarding obedience to GOD and His messenger ive already shown that after the death of the physical messenger the Quran itself becomes the messenger.
Since I have replied to this in my last post , I will wait for your answer
JK- GOD's sends messengers in the language of the people so that they can understand the message, obviously. And no GOD did not send send humans as messengers to be taken as a model. The reason IMO as to why he sends human messengers is to test whether the people would beleive in Him even if Hed send a human just like themselves or not. Malaaika or the universal forces of GOD are not send down because then the TEST WOULD BE OVER as is evident from this verse
We do not send down the malaaikah except for specific functions. Otherwise, no one will be respited.
GOD could also make everyone beleive instantly if He wanted as stated in another verse of the Quran. So this nothing but a test.If the people can understand the message then it?s easy to send a book as the disbelievers preferred.
If I ask, how you say RK is a messenger? Your answer might be that he came to explain the numbers embedded in Quran, which I personally don?t agree -
Peace "albuni",
I too have explained in my other post that Prophets has been send to explain the Quran and the explanation is preserved in hadith with highly accurate and scientific manner.
JK- From what ive heard so far from you nothing of the hadith is preserved in any reasonable manner. I thus consider this statement of yours to be a mockery to science. Theres been no archaelogical(i.e. scientific) verification of the hadith whatsoever. It's all mere hearsay. Your claim that muwatta ahdith must be true since so many supposedly independent people(for which there is no proof either) made similar claims regarding a topic which the Prophet supposedly discussed that it just cannot be wrong. But this very methodology is UTTERLY FALSE. It is very common that some understanings become widepread. These dominant ideas are then passed on to other people and later many make simlar claims. Why do you think the concept of trinity is distributed world wide. Even people in Africa beleive in a simlar trinitarian concept as do educated(but deluded) people in the US. Just because a set of ideas become dominant doesnt mean theyr true. I told you before you do not have any science neitzher does today's so called Muslim world. Thats also why theyr so backward IN ALMOST EVERY ASPECT(morality included) and others have to come to help them. Even the arms they use to fight the west are invented by western scientists. So spare me with the notion of what great science you use to verify hadith.
Brother, it?s not me who claims, I have mention the verse were god claims so please beware of your wordings. Interestingly you have no proof for this ?NATURE OF HUMANS?.I don?t find any relevant article so you read all the articles and reply me back.
JK- GOD is continuously inspiring man. GOD says in the Quran that He teaches by the pen. Now what does that mean? It is an allegorical refernce indcating that a lot of inspiration come to us from writing things down and re analysing them. Btw in that verse GOD is talking about DHIKR not salat which itself doesnt necessarily mean prayer at all. See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_wakas.htm
Since I have replied to this in my last post , I will wait for your answer
JK- And ive also given a reply to that reply of yours already and will await your answer to that.
If the people can understand the message then it?s easy to send a book as the disbelievers preferred.
JK- It's easy to send a book BUT THATS NOT THE NATURAL SUNNATULLAH WHICH NEVER CHANGES. GOD wants to test the people as ive mentioned earlier otherwise why not GOD reveal Himself altogether with all the universal forces in the open?
If I ask, how you say RK is a messenger? Your answer might be that he came to explain the numbers embedded in Quran, which I personally don?t agree
JK- Yes that IMO was a major function of the once messenger RK and he brought evidence which has been inpendently verified by bros Edip, myself, Bahman, even Layth(as far as the inital count goes) who has otherwise many disagreements with many of RK's counts and others. Whether you agree or not is totally irrelevant. Atheists, christians etc dont agree with Muhammad being a messenger either. Doesnt make them right des it? You have the same biases against RK. GOD Bless!
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Salam Brother,
When ever we say somthing as a scientific evidence ,we are not the one who does the research or we personally haven't look , smell or feel it.We trust the person who did the research and we accept it.We simply believe that its true because so many people have evidence the research likewise the hadhis are also preserved in a very scientific manner,its just been not bring up to the western world.You have mention a book (the omega point theory) you were not there when it was return or when he made the research or you are not a part in any of his creation then why to believe that book.The chain of narration , the history of the people who narrated , The recording of every hadhis is very much scientific.
Inshallaha i will reply the rest in my next post, since i am bit busy with my work i am not able to reply immediate.
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Salam Brother,
When ever we say somthing as a scientific evidence ,we are not the one who does the research or we personally haven't look , smell or feel it.We trust the person who did the research and we accept it.We simply believe that its true because so many people have evidence the research likewise the hadhis are also preserved in a very scientific manner,its just been not bring up to the western world.You have mention a book (the omega point theory) you were not there when it was return or when he made the research or you are not a part in any of his creation then why to believe that book.The chain of narration , the history of the people who narrated , The recording of every hadhis is very much scientific.
Inshallaha i will reply the rest in my next post, since i am bit busy with my work i am not able to reply immediate.
On the contrary, the 'hadith' were not collected until Caliph Hisham ordered a religious leader to do so. Before they were prohibited. The religious leader did so reluctantly. I advise you read the book reviewed here
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
Most scholars of Islamic history that I have encountered view them as frauds (Crone, Hoyland, Aisha Musa).There are heaps of problems you have yet to counter (history, the Quran, hadith with are stupid, hadith which prevent the recording of hadith, hadith which contradict the Quran), except with an extremely tedious argument that diverts around what the Quran says and replaces it with your opinion.
Following 'hadith' has no Quranic or historical basis.
Good luck with finding the truth (as I have said before, you are beginning to ask yourself these questions or else you would not be here).
Roshan
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Peace "albruni",
Salam Brother,
When ever we say somthing as a scientific evidence ,we are not the one who does the research or we personally haven't look , smell or feel it.We trust the person who did the research and we accept it.We simply believe that its true because so many people have evidence the research likewise the hadhis are also preserved in a very scientific manner,its just been not bring up to the western world.You have mention a book (the omega point theory) you were not there when it was return or when he made the research or you are not a part in any of his creation then why to believe that book.The chain of narration , the history of the people who narrated , The recording of every hadhis is very much scientific.
JK- This is TOTALLY INCORRECT. Nobody believes what scientists tell us BASED ON TRUST ALONE. Infact their results are published in journals WHICH EVERY LAYMAN can watch, accept if he wills and deny it if he/she fells theres something wrong with it. What rational people do though is compare the findings with other independent researchers and see whether theres a conversion of evidence. Thats exactly what i did whilst reading the "omega point theory". It matched with my own independent research and that of some other bros here including bro "Arnold Yasin". Regarding hadith what weve heard so far from you is very far from science.
Inshallaha i will reply the rest in my next post, since i am bit busy with my work i am not able to reply immediate.
JK- Ill be waiting GW. GOD Bless!
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Peace "albruni",
JK- This is TOTALLY INCORRECT. Nobody believes what scientists tell us BASED ON TRUST ALONE. Infact their results are published in journals WHICH EVERY LAYMAN can watch, accept if he wills and deny it if he/she fells theres something wrong with it. What rational people do though is compare the findings with other independent researchers and see whether theres a conversion of evidence. Thats exactly what i did whilst reading the "omega point theory". It matched with my own independent research and that of some other bros here including bro "Arnold Yasin". Regarding hadith what weve heard so far from you is very far from science.
JK- Ill be waiting GW. GOD Bless!
Assalamualaikum,
Brother JK so far what we both agreed is that Prophet has received other revelation than quran but you don?t want to add those revaluations to quran because you don?t find any solid proof for it........ But those who can read this discussion can clearly understand that I have shown sufficient proof for the authenticity for the hadhis
461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.
I see you avert with disgust when I say Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle
4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
And you say you believe in some and disbelieve in some, desiring to adopt a way in between this and that
Quran says Moses as messenger though he died alike Mohammed is also the messenger till the world end.
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Salaam,
First I want to say, that I don't accept these hadith because I feel they distract from the REAL message.
Secondly, what is the point of having both authentic and weak hadith (for the ones who follow them)?
What was the purpose of collecting and putting to print the weak hadith in the first place?
Peace,
dotty -
Salaam,
First I want to say, that I don't accept these hadith because I feel they distract from the REAL message.
Secondly, what is the point of having both authentic and weak hadith (for the ones who follow them)?
What was the purpose of collecting and putting to print the weak hadith in the first place?
Peace,
dottySalam,
Good question. I've wondered that as well. If they consider it weak....why do they still reference it?
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "albruni",
Assalamualaikum,
Brother JK so far what we both agreed is that Prophet has received other revelation than quran but you don?t want to add those revaluations to quran because you don?t find any solid proof for it........ But those who can read this discussion can clearly understand that I have shown sufficient proof for the authenticity for the hadhis
461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.
I see you avert with disgust when I say Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle
4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
And you say you believe in some and disbelieve in some, desiring to adopt a way in between this and that
Quran says Moses as messenger though he died alike Mohammed is also the messenger till the world end.
JK- No verses youve quoted show that wer to follow extra Quranic ahadith. Infact the Quran already mentions the relevant and authentic sayings of the messenger one of which is
The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have made this Quran of no account."
THUS if you want to follow the messenger youd have to look into the Quran TOO and not extra Quranic sources. The same is true if you want to look at all the relevant hadith of various other messengers mentioned in the Quran WHICH HAVE ALSO BEEN CITED IN THE QURAN. We dont need to go to other sources for that either. GOD Bless! -
First I want to say, that I don't accept these hadith because I feel they distract from the REAL message.
Salam Brother,
Hadith are not to distract from the REAL message but to explain it more clearly for E.g. (Sala)
Secondly, what is the point of having both authentic and weak hadith (for the ones who follow them)?
What was the purpose of collecting and putting to print the weak hadith in the first place?
It?s a very scientific way to protect the Hadith. Only when they have recorded both the authentic and weak Hadith nobody can add new Hadith, moreover when the record a weak Hadith they have mentioned why it?s weak, with that we can also check the biography of the narrators to see the authenticity
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Peace "albruni",
JK- No verses youve quoted show that wer to follow extra Quranic ahadith. Infact the Quran already mentions the relevant and authentic sayings of the messenger one of which is
The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have made this Quran of no account."
THUS if you want to follow the messenger youd have to look into the Quran TOO and not extra Quranic sources. The same is true if you want to look at all the relevant hadith of various other messengers mentioned in the Quran WHICH HAVE ALSO BEEN CITED IN THE QURAN. We dont need to go to other sources for that either. GOD Bless!Salam jonny,
Once again for your reference I will quote it again
The task of the Prophet to deliver and explain Clearly
"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them."
"Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error." .
We can not limit the Prophethood to 23 years because Quran syas
"We did not send you except as Mercy for all creatures."
"We have not sent you except as a Messenger to all mankind, giving them glad tidings and warning them against sin."
If we disobey Allaha (Quran) and His Messenger (Explanation) we will be in wrong path because Qran says so
"If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong path."
"He that obeys Allah and His Messenger has already attained the great victory." .
Indeed he our beloved messenger will say that because you have disobey Quran by disobeying the Hadhis
(2527)The day will come when the transgressor will bite his hands (in anguish) and say, "Alas, I wish I had followed the path with the messenger.
461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.
4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
May God Guide us in the right path...
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Salam Brother,
Hadith are not to distract from the REAL message but to explain it more clearly for E.g. (Sala)
Salam,
What you call "explaining" I call ADDING to the word of Allah.
Salam,
Arnab -
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Peace "albruni",
Salam jonny,
Once again for your reference I will quote it again
The task of the Prophet to deliver and explain Clearly
"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them."
"Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error." .
JK- Yes and the messenger's explanations which are also GOD inspired ARE IN THE QURAN. Examples
They ask you about the phases of the moon! SAY, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
They ask you about menstruation SAY, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."Example of statements being further explained
Say(messenger is to say), "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat* of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.Verse is further detailed by this verse which is logically also uttered via mouth of messenger inspired by GOD
Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
We can not limit the Prophethood to 23 years because Quran syas
"We did not send you except as Mercy for all creatures."
"We have not sent you except as a Messenger to all mankind, giving them glad tidings and warning them against sin."
JK- Yes the Quran is for all times and contains all the relevant statements uttered by the messenger. In his ordinary life Muhammad even uttered false statements like in 3337 saying "keep your wife". Also the word "'alameen" only refers to all the people whilst the person is living. Here examples from the Quran
The angels said, "O Mary, GOD has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you from all the women(nisaa minal ALAMEEN).
So does it mean Mary was even better than the Prophet's wives?
Or
And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people(alal ALAMEEN).
This verse which starts from verse 83 in context does NOT include Muhammad so are all these Prophets greater than him?
OR
Peace be upon Noah amongst all the peoples(ALAMEEN).
So does it mean Noah is blessed even more than Muhammad?If we disobey Allaha (Quran) and His Messenger (Explanation) we will be in wrong path because Qran says so
"If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong path."
"He that obeys Allah and His Messenger has already attained the great victory." .
Indeed he our beloved messenger will say that because you have disobey Quran by disobeying the Hadhis
(2527)The day will come when the transgressor will bite his hands (in anguish) and say, "Alas, I wish I had followed the path with the messenger.
461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.
4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
May God Guide us in the right path...
JK- Following the messenger is following his true statements which we know for sure he made as a messenger being inspired by GOD and those are ONLY TO BE FOUND in the Quran. As to the rest of the hadith GOD says
The revelation of this scripture is from GOD, the Almighty, Most Wise.
...
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In WHICH HADITH other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?WHICH HADITH, other than this, do they uphold?
GOD Bless!
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Peace "albruni",
Salam ,
Yes its adding to the word of allah by allah because quran say so
531,2,3 - your companion is neither astray, neither errs, nor does he speak out of desire
Peace
JK- 531,2,3 is only in reference to Muhammad being a messenger and all relevant statements he made as a messenger for all times are only to be found in the Quran as ive stated before. The Quran makes this clear in the following verse
Recall that you said to the one who was blessed by GOD, and blessed by you, "Keep your wife and reverence GOD," and you hid inside yourself what GOD wished to proclaim. Thus, you feared the people, when you were supposed to fear only GOD....GOD Bless!
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Hadith are not to distract from the REAL message but to explain it more clearly for E.g. (Sala)
GOD thus explains His revelations for you, that you may understand
We thus explain the revelations, and point out the ways of the wicked.
This is the straight path to your Lord. We have explained the revelations for people who take heed.
We thus explain the revelations, to enable the people to redeem themselves
What do these verses mean to you? Is it not clear that GOD is the One who explains?
It?s a very scientific way to protect the Hadith. Only when they have recorded both the authentic and weak Hadith nobody can add new Hadith, moreover when the record a weak Hadith they have mentioned why it?s weak, with that we can also check the biography of the narrators to see the authenticity
This is a scientific way to protect the hadith? So my neighbor said, that her friend said, that her uncle told her, that his boss told him, that last week he heard about it from a grocer, etc. etc. Now, keep in mind that my neighbor is righteous. I know that for sure. And, I think her friend is pretty good, and her uncle, maybe. I don't know about the boss and the grocer is a total stranger. Where is the authenticity?
Peace,
dotty