BIG BIG BIG BIG SINFUL ACT!
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Peace,
Homosexuality (both male and female) is condemned in the Quran
"And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall punish them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful." (415-16)
In all cases, even if a person is unable to change his/her feelings, the person is responsible to control himself/herself from moving the issue beyond the thought/feeling stage.
http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/lewdness
No where on this page is he word lewd described as homosexauality, just lust in general. Unless there is some mistranslation in that verse, (which I dont think there is, I've seen it posted multiple times the exact same way) then it isnt describing homosexuality.
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http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/lewdness
No where on this page is he word lewd described as homosexuality, just lust in general. Unless there is some mistranslation in that verse, (which I don't think there is, I've seen it posted multiple times the exact same way) then it isnt describing homosexuality.
Thank you, I was just going to post that.
I find it interesting that those here who call themselves 'free and independent thinkers' are condemning homosexuality, not based on fact or reason but simply prejudice linked with the 'eww yuck' childish attitude.
None of you have explain WHY it is bad. You point out to thingst that talk about being promiscuous, you talk about versus that refer to straight men using homosexuals for sexual release, but not a single verse relating to homosexuality.
What it tells me is that these people have the attitude that they think homosexuality is a concious choice made by the individual - that is what they're implicitly saying.
May I suggest that those who have a problem with homosexuality to get a life. Until you've been in my shoes, you know jack sh*t about the situation I am in.
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Peace,
Regarding the verse
"And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall punish them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful." (415-16)
Why does it not say "and those men and women who commit lewdness" (ie heterosexuals)?
Why does it say "and those women who commit lewdness" "and the two men who commit lewdness"
This to me emphasizes that the verse is about homosexual acts...
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Peace
It is wrong because God says it is wrong in the quran, which some of us here believe in. Just as fornication is wrong, just as adultery is wrong, just as marrying moms and sisters is wrong. Note that the verse says the two men or women who commit lewdness together. You can stay with your situation but just note that as far as I'm concerned it is clearly a forbidden thing. There used to be another vehement homosexual on these boards a few years ago, perhaps you should read his posts, I believe they are here unless they were lost in some of the crashes.
Joe
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Peace,
Regarding the verse
"And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall punish them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful." (415-16)
Why does it not say "and those men and women who commit lewdness" (ie heterosexuals)?
Why does it say "and those women who commit lewdness" "and the two men who commit lewdness"
This to me emphasizes that the verse is about homosexual acts...
Ok, here it is
And as for those of your women who become guilty of immoral conduct, call upon four from among you who have witnessed their guilt and bear witness thereto, confine the guilty women to their houses until death takes them away or God opens for them a way . And punish both of the guilty parties; but f they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone; for behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispencer of grace Surah 415-16 Muhammad Asad - The message of the Quran.
May I suggest you read the following text
Progressive Muslims, Chapter 8, Sexuality, Diversity, and ethics in the agenda of progressive Muslims, Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle (ISBN 1-85168-316-X) which addresses this issue.
The above quotation you provided has nothing to do with homosexuality, but promiscuity, be it between a man and a women, two women or two men.
I know you hate gays, so why not just come out with it rather than resorting to hiding behind scripture.
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Peace to all,
kaiwai, who said we hated you or other gays, hate the sin but love the sinner, I believe it is a sin but its not for me to condemn you or punish you, only God can do that, I do want you to keep it private though, and when I here people say stuff like dont impose your morality on me I answer, dont impose your immorality on me and my family.
Kurt
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Peace to all,
kaiwai, who said we hated you or other gays, hate the sin but love the sinner, I believe it is a sin but its not for me to condemn you or punish you, only God can do that, I do want you to keep it private though, and when I here people say stuff like dont impose your morality on me I answer, dont impose your immorality on me and my family.
Kurt
How am I imposing my immortality on you? don't make such erroneous statements. If you don't like homosexuals, then just jolly well come out with it - stop tip-toeing around the issue finding scriptures which you've interpreted in such a way to back up what you want it to say.
If you're going to take the above approach, you might as well move to Saudi Arabia and embrace Wahhabism wholesale - if you're going to complete divorce yourself from any possible reason when it comes to this topic. When you go around believing that homosexuality is a choice, and we're (all homosexuals) deviant as*holes who should die a horrible death in hell, I truly question whether or not you could be classed as a 'progressive Muslim'.
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Peace Kaiwai,
780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"
781 "You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people."
782 The only response of his people was "Drive them out of your town; they are a people who wish to be pure!"To me it is pretty clear that the Scripture is against homosexual acts.
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733 Say "My Lord has forbidden all lewd action, what is obvious from them and what is subtle, and sin, and aggression without cause, and that you set up partners with God that which He has never authorized, and that you say about God what you do not know."
6151 Say "Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
What can this mean other than anything that isn't with your Wife?
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent from the women, except those committed to you by oath; God's scripture is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.So according to this, you aren't even allowed to have sex with "independent women" who you aren't married to. I don't mean to cause any offense, just to let the truth be known. And I don't hate you.
Peace
Al -
780
And Lot when he said to his nation "Do you commit the enormous/atrocious deed , (that) not from one/anyone from the creations all together/(universes) did not precede you with it?"781
That you are coming/doing the men (with) lust/desire/craving from other than the women, but you are a nation (of) spoilers/wasters/extravagators." -
1178 And his nation came to him rushing disturbedly/hysterically/madly to him, and from before they were making/doing the sins/crimes, he said "You (my) nation those are my daughters, they are (F) purer for you, so fear and obey God and do not shame/scandalize/disgrace me in (front of) my guests, is (there) not from you a correctly/rightly guided man?"
1179
they said "You had (E) known (there) is not for us from (a) right in your daughters, and that you know (E) what we want."
What else would they want from (perceived) men, and why would Lut offer his daughter?
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Peace Kaiwai,
780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"
781 "You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people."
782 The only response of his people was "Drive them out of your town; they are a people who wish to be pure!"To me it is pretty clear that the Scripture is against homosexual acts.
Again, depends on whether you consider homosexuality a conscious choice or a born trait. That will dictate how you view the scripture - where do you stand on the matter?
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The act is sinful.
But as to whether someone can be genetically homosexual, i don't know.
But the act of engaging in same-sex sex is sinful.Again, you fail to answer the question WHY IS IT SINFUL!
You first have to decide whether or not you consider it a conscious choice or an inbuilt trait. How you view that then dictates how you interpret the scripture.
Again, put down the Quran and use some damn reasoning and rationalism - I know its going to be a step in the unknown, but entertain the idea for a few minutes.
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Peace Kaiwai
I have no idea whether homosexuality is genetic or not, but I believe God always forbids things for very good reasons even if I do not know what it is.
201 T'.H'
202 We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
203 It is but a reminder for the one who takes heed.
204 Sent down from the One who created the Earth and the heavens above.
205 The Almighty, on the throne He settled.
206 To Him is what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth, and what is in between, and what is underneath the soil. -
Peace Kaiwai
I have no idea whether homosexuality is genetic or not, but I believe God always forbids things for very good reasons even if I do not know what it is.
201 T'.H'
202 We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
203 It is but a reminder for the one who takes heed.
204 Sent down from the One who created the Earth and the heavens above.
205 The Almighty, on the throne He settled.
206 To Him is what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth, and what is in between, and what is underneath the soil.And AGAIN you fail to address the question - is this what is passed off as moderation, "acceptance of all, except the persistant hatred of homosexuals" - great, and to think that this forum was actually filled with people who have grey matter between their ears.
The story of Lot is based on the result, not the crap in between. Want to know what Gods state of the matter is, look at WHY the city was destroyed, don't look at the build up because it s a waste of time. It tells nothing of the judgement and reason for the judgement. The reason for the judgment is as follows
"And leave what your lord has created for you, that is, your wives? 26166
In the phrase and the word [arabic[ (min) Min could be descriptive (which is translated above as 'that is if taken in the technical sense would mean that in order to satisfy your lust you go after homosexual men instead of your wives, whom Allah has given you to meet your natural urge"
So working backwards from the judgement made by God, the speech is directed at straight men, not homosexuals as demonstrated by the commentary. The issue at hand, therefore, is straight men who use homosexual men (in the passive role) to fulfill their lusts. So two things can come out of that. Firstly, that if you're straight the excuse 'any hole is a goal' is not an acceptable excuse to have homosexual sex. Secondly, that you shouldn't use others to fulfill your sexual desires.
The other possibility is that the letter 'Min' is used to mean from or 'out of'; then the meaning of the verse would be that it is a special part in the body of your wives which is created for the satisfaction of your natural urge. But you indulge in unnatural act with the, which is totally unlawful. This according to this second interpretation, it has been made clear that it is no permitted to have unnatural intercourse with one's wife.
We can there fore see that this final commentary refers to anal sex with a female. A female has a vagina for sexual intercourse, but the men choose to have anal sex instead.
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4115 And whoever is hostile to the messenger after the guidance has been made clear to him, and he follows other than the path of the believers; We will grant him what he has sought and deliver him to Hell; what a miserable destination.
4135 O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow your desires from being just. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.This is far more important than looking "tolerant" and "progressive". A soul is not given more than he/she can bear. So if you truly want to follow the scripture, it is not past your strength or ability. But everyone has the choice. And there is no compulsion in religion.
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Peace Kaiwai,
I take my guidance from the Quran. If something is clearly prohibited against in the Quran and I reject God's command, then I am following my own ego and not God's laws.
I agree with him and others. If it's written like that, it's written like that.
Just as I don't go around looking for reasons about why pork is forbidden.