Intellect or revelation
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Is our intellect the yardstick to measure revelation as advocated by most of freeminders or vice versa where intellect should be exercised within the limits set in the revelation in the form of 37 where God makes it clear that in this scripture there are certain truths which can be clarified only by God.Secondly how far are we going to stretch the intellect thing with certain extremly popular and influential theories like Deridas theory of deconstruction questioning whether human language itself is capable of communicating truth thereby striking at the very foundation of scripture itself. So are going to be embroiled in this mess or are we going to use our intellect to an extent where it aids us in understanding what God wants us to do and spend our energies in achieving that objetive.So my question is ---What is the yardstick we must follow.Intellect or Quran
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Is our intellect the yardstick to measure revelation as advocated by most of freeminders or vice versa where intellect should be exercised within the limits set in the revelation in the form of 37 where God makes it clear that in this scripture there are certain truths which can be clarified only by God.Secondly how far are we going to stretch the intellect thing with certain extremly popular and influential theories like Deridas theory of deconstruction questioning whether human language itself is capable of communicating truth thereby striking at the very foundation of scripture itself. So are going to be embroiled in this mess or are we going to use our intellect to an extent where it aids us in understanding what God wants us to do and spend our energies in achieving that objetive.So my question is ---What is the yardstick we must follow.Intellect or Quran
My opinion is Quran over intellect. My intellect has let me down in the past. God Willing the Quran will never let me down. There are vague verses in the Quran and they should be left that way.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
God is far above adhering to what our mind defines as common sense. Why can't we all just stick to following what is clear???
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Intellect is the only way you can honestly say you believe in the quran (eg 1736). So intellect then quran. Sure, you will be wrong at least a couple of times but the quran has much room to fix that, that's what it's for.
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Intellect is the only way you can honestly say you believe in the quran (eg 1736). So intellect then quran. Sure, you will be wrong at least a couple of times but the quran has much room to fix that, that's what it's for.
Yes I agree with that statement. What is your opinion on twisting verses when it clearly says one thing to fit a more "reasonable" explanation. Thats the point where I'd go with the more literal interpretation over the one that makes more sense. If you get what I mean )
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Firstly I would not want to be classified as belonging to this one group of people identifying with the intellect mind - free-minds etc. I don't feel that I fit in to such a category. The reason I am remaining here is primarily because I feel I am learning more - not because I have identified with a certain way of being...and we are also always changing and evolving....
I know that some where in the Quran there is reference to not follow blindly but to go with all that is which is within one's faculty of understanding. That woudl perhaps be consistent with not having to be compelled to beleive.
Personally I feel that when you really begin to beleive - you really feel heightend sense/accptance in matters that you can not even fully grasp. Kind of like when we are dreaming we cannot understand everything - but it all makes sense to us in a weird way......and yet matters that we have been conditioned to beleive in or are as a result of dubious interpretations - therein question marks remain in your mind with a searching for comprehension as you grow in wisdom through facing realities.
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In continuation of my previous post i wish to humbly point out that in this forum reason leave alone intellect seems to be more important than revelation and statements like i cant understand or accept this verse for so and so reason are widely prevalent.
I can agree that if we exercise the reasoning component of intellect (cause intellect is much more comprehensive than reasoning and includes our experience,the deductions we arrive at from the sum total of our sensory input,even our intuitions based on accrued knowledge)our belief in the scripture, if not more solid is at least more satisfying for us.But we cannot belittle the belief of those who believe yet do not exercise reason much.Maybe it is through intellect they have realised that to use reason only as basis for belief is a double edged sword and surely has its limits.And surely there are so many phenomenon both in this universe and in our ourselves for which we have no rational answers and surely in so many verses God has stated that we will be informed in the next world.So,please i need more input to my original question on intellect.To put in another way do we decide the truth or do we follow the truth.As many views as possible.Thank you brother Almaato for your welcome.
How do i select and transfer a line from a previous(and make a box) post to be able to reply to it. -
O.k Javed1.
I accept the generalisation you have drawn about the nature of messages on this site but personally, my knees start to jerk whenever I feel categorised - especailly as I wouldn't say that I am defintely NOT a follower of intellect alone or that I belong/identfy with this free-minds society. I am just here as a human being to perhaps learn more about the monotheistic way of life. Perhaps I do not need to be here and may be able to acquire my learning from study of the Quran alone - but there have been many significant issues highlighted here which I may have remained ignorant of for a long time to come.
In terms of this post - I understand you want to know wheter it is possible to reject certain clear directives in the Quran for the sake of rational comprehension?
I could be wrong - but I think the majority of people beleive that they are following the truth when they interpret the verses in whichever way that they do. I don't thnk that they are feeling that they are compiling the truth but are following the truth. Personally I generally agree with that process - though I may not agree with all their interpretations.
Just as you have indicated - I imagine that feelings and intuition and intellect all combine together to give me a sense of integrity in my being. When I have questions or when I am investigating matters - personally it is really more because I feel I may be highlighting areas unknown to others that I may have already arrived at a conviction for - and I am interested in seeking further truths or perspectives - if there may be any to shatter my convictions or otherwise expose the truth. Perhaps more like yourself as with regards to this post - you have a reasoning and are possibly trying to deduce the truth rather than saying that you are confused.
Your concern And surely there are so many phenomenon both in this universe and in our ourselves for which we have no rational answers and surely in so many verses God has stated that we will be informed in the next world, I feel I have already answerd this when I said
......therein question marks remain in your mind with a searching for comprehension as you grow in wisdom through facing realities.Your question To put in another way do we decide the truth or do we follow the truth. - What is the definition of truth - is that we follow others wisdom blindly or that we follow what we feel to be in line with our comprehension? For me it is the latter which represents the truth and I explain below the reasons why
I accept what you are saying that those who do not understand - but follow from ordinance alone can not be belittled because they are simply following a system. I see there is good and bad to this - bascially as sheep, you are likely to suffer less, to be less confused and be further lost than those inclined towards following of intellect alone (I am talking of personal expereince of being led astray by following others intellect). In truth I know that my being led astray was really due to not respecting my feelings about the way I was heading and instead trying to accept the ways of others with teh reasoning that otherwise there was soemthing wrong with me... In the aftermath/on reflection such an experience made me revere (!) teh sheep people who would not have got themselves in to trouble like that. sun But it also highlights how trying to follow like sheep on matters that are outside of your concsiousness can easily lead you easily astray.
However I also easily see the sheep people around (blindly followering) dishonouring their true nature and being far away from God's way of natural human design (as advocated for in the Quran). I do not see them following in the true path that they claim to belong with.
All in all I would answer your question by divulging how it works for me (I am not trying to say that this is how it should be - as who is to say about another person's actions - only God will ultimately be able to judge us - but we must surely go in line with our own course of understanding)
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Reason alone defintiely is extremely limited - whereby you can be led astray to follow man-made reasoning. This is the weakest appraoch.
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Following like sheep what was decreed the Quran - we do not grow and have not really beleived - and on the day of Judgement we may be questioned about that. Our learning of wisdom and growing as humans is evolutionary - as is mentioned in the Quran that when a man reaches 40 he is more endowed with wisdom. Therefore to follow as sheep would not be wise. Anyhow following as sheep I feel is the middle appraoch as it is a safegaurd form many evil vices that are out there in society.....
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Engaging of all faculties of resulting in the power of 'sense' is the strongest approach - particulary with regards to acting with full conviction and maintaining personal integrity side by side of growth. Life is not linear - but it is interactive - you are required to learn about life on the job so to speak. We have many stories about lives as examples set out in the Quran and at different stages we may be able to appreciate the different meanings attached to each story. For me it is just a means of growth with age and experienceing of realities. Knowing of stories alone may not teach you.... but assimilating the teachings in line with conscious thought and acting in line with that - would be the way of integrity.
Lastly I would ask yourself to examine the lifestyles of those following like sheep - do you think that they are astray from the straight path or not? Surely the concequences of any approach should allow for the ultimate judge of what yardstick to follow.
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Yes I agree with that statement. What is your opinion on twisting verses when it clearly says one thing to fit a more "reasonable" explanation. Thats the point where I'd go with the more literal interpretation over the one that makes more sense. If you get what I mean
If you had the type of intellect the quran appraises you wouldn't need to twist verses to suit yourself, by definition
Of course, it's a moderately circular argument but if you start off with your own reason, then understand the quran bit by bit, and apply that, why should there be a problem?
You are forgetting, that the quran is written in a language. And a language has a grammar, rules, etc that can be very subjective, Arabic is quite systematic but even then it's subject to interpretation. So you MUST use your own intellect to understand it - the most important thing is that the quran claims to make clear and distinct its meaning to people of knowledge/understanding/intellect. What the OP (a reincarnation of that one troll) is asking, is the thinly veiled question - "Should we use our own intellect or the intellect of so-called "scholars" in order to interpret the quran?". And I know which one I prefer.
The quran is not a magic book.
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Thank you very much HumanDesign for an enilghtening post and i fully agree with your middle of the way approach.I am in no way(not even thinly veiled) advocating that traditional interpretations should be accepted.My trepidation is that my dependence rather overconfidence on my analysis,my mind,my reasoning,my this,my that, is making my intellect an idol.May Allah save me from such a situation. Hence i wanted to know if there are others in my predicament and how do they achieve the balance which Quran seems to require where it encourages us to think ,reflect and at the same time to believe in the ghaib and submit unconditionally.
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I guess to achieve a true balance i judgment, one must experience it or at least learn from others experiences. Look around. Look everywhere, the God created earth has a lot to say too. Like animals, trees. Look with an intention to find want God wants to say to you. I'm sure you'll find something. Maybe something that you might consider bad or wrong at first. But at the end you'll learn from the bad and increase your experience. I guess from HD categories, this is number 3 approach. For me this is the best approach. But first i suggest to find every wisdom in Quran and keep it to your heart first. As a beacon and protector because i think HD's no. 3 approach is very challenging yet rewarding if you succeed. But you have to be well prepared for the challenges. You might go astray if you took the wrong path.
My suggestion, Whenever you felt stuck, Pray to God to show the way (alone). Talk to Him as if you are talking to a counselor, your mentor, seeking advice and guidance. If you felt like you're not connecting to Him, try to repeat your words a couple of times. Be humble. You'll felt something (I did ). Take your time. I believe God will teach you step by step until one day you'll say to yourself, "Oh, i see, that's what God wanted to show me". Kinda like that ;D. Patience is a virtue.
To become humble to him one must praise to God a lot. You'll become sensitive to anything happening around you. Sensitive to God signs.
I suggest to read this article. Maybe it'll inspire you to become humble and thankful to Him.
Hope this helps. ;D
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Fadhli,
But first i suggest to find every wisdom in Quran and keep it to your heart first. As a beacon and protector
My suggestion, Whenever you felt stuck, Pray to God to show the way (alone). Talk to Him as if you are talking to a counselor, your mentor, seeking advice and guidance. If you felt like you're not connecting to Him, try to repeat your words a couple of times. Be humble. You'll felt something (I did ). Take your time. I believe God will teach you step by step until one day you'll say to yourself, "Oh, i see, that's what God wanted to show me". Kinda like that . Patience is a virtue.
- I will try to do so - Wise words indeed - thanks for the reminder. sun
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37 is not about the Quran. Context is key.
38 is a continuation....
311 shows you which ayats Pharaoh was rejecting.
The book/al Kitab is not any book you can hold. Unless you'd like to explain how knowledge from the book gives one the power to teleport a mansion (2740).
It's interesting to note
-That Al kitab is never plural, not once.
-There's no 'hadha al kitab' 'this al kitab '.
-There IS 'hadha kitab' i.e. this book.
-There is 'hadha al hadeeth' i.e. this hadeeth. But no 'hadha hadeeth'.
-1037, Al quran details Al kitab. Al quran details itself?!Al kitab involves the workings of the universes and depending on context human nature/ our 'record'.
22 is often mistranslated to say 'this book...' When it says 'THAT book'. The word for this is hadha. The word for that is thalik.
Now, Al kitab bil haqq/ the book with truth IS Al Quran.
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The book/al Kitab is not any book you can hold. Unless you'd like to explain how knowledge from the book gives one the power to teleport a mansion (2740).
Fun with Antimatter for Beginners, Unabridged, First published in 2040AD by Gloop-SQUIRK-EEK House ;D
In continuation of my previous post i wish to humbly point out that in this forum reason leave alone intellect seems to be more important than revelation and statements like i cant understand or accept this verse for so and so reason are widely prevalent.
I can agree that if we exercise the reasoning component of intellect (cause intellect is much more comprehensive than reasoning and includes our experience,the deductions we arrive at from the sum total of our sensory input,even our intuitions based on accrued knowledge)our belief in the scripture, if not more solid is at least more satisfying for us.But we cannot belittle the belief of those who believe yet do not exercise reason much.Maybe it is through intellect they have realised that to use reason only as basis for belief is a double edged sword and surely has its limits.And surely there are so many phenomenon both in this universe and in our ourselves for which we have no rational answers and surely in so many verses God has stated that we will be informed in the next world.So,please i need more input to my original question on intellect.To put in another way do we decide the truth or do we follow the truth.As many views as possible.Thank you brother Almaato for your welcome.
How do i select and transfer a line from a previous(and make a box) post to be able to reply to it.Use the "quote button". The quran describes unbelievers as deaf, dumb and blind. It describes them as lepers. It describes the work of someone who is deaf, dumb and blind (spiritually), as invalid. So where is your proof that the quran justifies blind belief? There is no such justification in the quran. 37, states clearly so that only men of understanding say that they believe in the book and the whole of it. This rules out anyone who believes in the book for fun and games, for culture, for fame, or even because their fathers did it (these traits of course are all described in the quran in numerous places). So again, where is your justification?
One believer who understands is better in belief than 1.6 billion hypocrites. This, the quran makes clear.
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Is our intellect the yardstick to measure revelation as advocated by most of freeminders or vice versa where intellect should be exercised within the limits set in the revelation in the form of 37 where God makes it clear that in this scripture there are certain truths which can be clarified only by God.
Good on you to pose this question.
And very necessary judging from the response, good lord!! brickwallAfter so much confusion here a simple answer that for some will be a revelation in it self
The intellect is diametrically opposed to revelation.
It is one or the other.
Almost always it is intellect that rules us, and satan who has led us to belief that it leads to anything good.
Revelation can only come when the intellect is silenced.It is simply, but not exclusively, a matter of brain waves.
'normal' for an adult is 15-30 Hz (beta, alpha) good for a.o. studying books.
'revelation mode' is around 4 Hz (deep theta, delta)That's why scribes are never prophets and prophets are never scribes! o
There is an enormous amount of scientific data on this, showing the dramatic EEG effects on the brain waves when a person seeks to enter this theta/delta state.
If you have never experienced it, you are simply wandering in the dark and in an illusion of your own making.Actually, the islamic prayer ritual, if performed with knowledge, is a very finely tuned process that is helpful in reaching such a state of mind. But it is/was designed for the masses, not for the initiates.
And I am guessing that this is very little understood, that is has become a mere duty to perform.Much more elaborate and/or effective methods are found all over the place/world.
But never forget; you may seek, but it is god in his grace who grants.
And he will respectfully decline if you seek to merely ADD his wisdom to the intellectual 'treasures' you are so proud of.
You must empty your treasure trove if you wish it to be filled with true treasures of your creator. -
The intellect is diametrically opposed to revelation.
It is one or the other.
Almost always it is intellect that rules us, and satan who has led us to belief that it leads to anything good.
Revelation can only come when the intellect is silenced.How is it opposed?
What do you understand by revelation?
What do you understand by intellect?
Are you saying that a person who ever uses intellect will not ever know revelation and vice versa?
Salaam
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Intellect and revelation are opposed, mutually exclusive, because they are fundamentally different ?things?, requiring different brain function and frequency.
A revelation is a coherent amount of data, often massive and beyond the limitations of human language, that is down loaded directly from source to the knowledge banks of the recipient. If you receive a revelation you simply and suddenly come to know in full depth what it is that you are given to know. No doubt, no sweat.
Once the domain of prophets, now to become the domain of all who enter the new world.
Each of us is invited to become our own ?prophet?, re-establish our personal on line connection with the divine that has been lost for thousands of years.
You know we are witnessing the ?End of Times? I assume?
Bibliolatrists, book worshipers, are normally totally oblivious of this mode of existence and of the fact that a fast growing portion of humanity has already tuned in to it.
They experience daily the ?Ask and ye shall be given? but do not speak of it with bibliolatrists as they know it is like talking to a brick wall.
They do pray for them however. bravoLike the chair you are sitting on and the body you inhabit, the intellect is NOT you.
It is an input/output device that processes sensory data, real time or memory, in a predictable mechanical manner.
It is a tool that you may use. Handy for walking a straight line, drawing a circle, make calculations or escape from a hungry lion or reading a book.
It is NOT a communication device that connects you with your source/creator/heavenly entities.Any human language can hardly encompass the human experience of perceived ?reality?.
This ?reality? is based on sensory data.
Sensory data are extremely limited in scope, each a very narrow band of the infinitely full spectrum, making our perceived reality an infinitely small portion of the totality of creation. Actually, it is an illusion.
It is preposterous to think or believe that written words can convey the truth.
The full glory of gods creation is infinitely greater than any human language can convey.
.NO, having used your intellect once does not mean you are lost forever. Believe me, I would definitely have been lost if that were the case. &
It is a tool, and an important one. But it is a tool, not your boss.
The problem is that he dark forces have long ago succeeded in making us belief that this tool must lead the way and will lead us to salvation. The ultimate trick of the devil!
It is like the hammer leading the carpenter, do not expect anything but destruction.It is imperative that we re-establish our personal on line connection with source/god and it is divinely ordained that our time, these years, is the time to do so.
We could never pull this off on our own, being programmed by the dark forces to much.
But it is the grace of god that his light is reaching our planet and us now in ever greater force, making it possible for all who make the decision to do so, to receive this inner light and finally remember who we really are. -
Is our intellect the yardstick to measure revelation as advocated by most of freeminders or vice versa where intellect should be exercised within the limits set in the revelation in the form of 37 where God makes it clear that in this scripture there are certain truths which can be clarified only by God.Secondly how far are we going to stretch the intellect thing with certain extremely popular and influential theories like Deridas theory of deconstruction questioning whether human language itself is capable of communicating truth thereby striking at the very foundation of scripture itself. So are going to be embroiled in this mess or are we going to use our intellect to an extent where it aids us in understanding what God wants us to do and spend our energies in achieving that objective. So my question is ---What is the yardstick we must follow.Intellect or Quran
My own reading has led me to think that it is our own human nature that inclines us to believe in Allah and his revelations. This is the problem with secularism - our brains are not secular. Allah has created us biased, to believe in him. When we read the Bible and Quran, we naturally feel inclined to believe in them, as it taps into something deep within our subconscious. I think this is a proof of Allah and the Quran, a secret God has hidden, we know he has created us because he made us believe in him.
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Intellect and revelation are opposed, mutually exclusive, because they are fundamentally different ?things?, requiring different brain function and frequency.
A revelation is a coherent amount of data, often massive and beyond the limitations of human language, that is down loaded directly from source to the knowledge banks of the recipient. If you receive a revelation you simply and suddenly come to know in full depth what it is that you are given to know. No doubt, no sweat.
Once the domain of prophets, now to become the domain of all who enter the new world.
Each of us is invited to become our own ?prophet?, re-establish our personal on line connection with the divine that has been lost for thousands of years.
You know we are witnessing the ?End of Times? I assume?
Bibliolatrists, book worshipers, are normally totally oblivious of this mode of existence and of the fact that a fast growing portion of humanity has already tuned in to it.
They experience daily the ?Ask and ye shall be given? but do not speak of it with bibliolatrists as they know it is like talking to a brick wall.
They do pray for them however. bravoLike the chair you are sitting on and the body you inhabit, the intellect is NOT you.
It is an input/output device that processes sensory data, real time or memory, in a predictable mechanical manner.
It is a tool that you may use. Handy for walking a straight line, drawing a circle, make calculations or escape from a hungry lion or reading a book.
It is NOT a communication device that connects you with your source/creator/heavenly entities.Any human language can hardly encompass the human experience of perceived ?reality?.
This ?reality? is based on sensory data.
Sensory data are extremely limited in scope, each a very narrow band of the infinitely full spectrum, making our perceived reality an infinitely small portion of the totality of creation. Actually, it is an illusion.
It is preposterous to think or believe that written words can convey the truth.
The full glory of gods creation is infinitely greater than any human language can convey.
.NO, having used your intellect once does not mean you are lost forever. Believe me, I would definitely have been lost if that were the case. &
It is a tool, and an important one. But it is a tool, not your boss.
The problem is that he dark forces have long ago succeeded in making us belief that this tool must lead the way and will lead us to salvation. The ultimate trick of the devil!
It is like the hammer leading the carpenter, do not expect anything but destruction.It is imperative that we re-establish our personal on line connection with source/god and it is divinely ordained that our time, these years, is the time to do so.
We could never pull this off on our own, being programmed by the dark forces to much.
But it is the grace of god that his light is reaching our planet and us now in ever greater force, making it possible for all who make the decision to do so, to receive this inner light and finally remember who we really are.You give a description, rather than a definition of what you understand by intellect. I do not agree with it, and I do not agree on duality either. All our powers can be used in conjuction and contribute to the unity of being, our own being and every being. Revelation comes as a miracle, a natural miracle of faith, of openness, of submission and questioning, or by any other means or in any other way, because people are all different and different things work for different people and each person has his or her own destiny.
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My own reading has led me to think that it is our own human nature that inclines us to believe in Allah and his revelations. This is the problem with secularism - our brains are not secular. Allah has created us biased, to believe in him. When we read the Bible and Quran, we naturally feel inclined to believe in them, as it taps into something deep within our subconscious. I think this is a proof of Allah and the Quran, a secret God has hidden, we know he has created us because he made us believe in him.
There is a lot of truth in that. Thank God.
Salaam