doubting Quran
-
Hi Belalhammad, would you say that 929 is allegorical?
Dear Brother
The Decisive Verse is the Verse that I mention in my post regarding fighting, which indicates a precondition for fighting that is "They have to start the fight to destroy or force you into their religion". (as the same condition that happened is Chapter 9). Thus, 9-29 is decisive when the pre-condition exist, but if not, you follow the ones that says you can not fight them, you cannot force them into your religion, and you tell them that your Lord is my Lord and your books are my Books.
God Bless you all -
We all have inner guidance from GOD.
Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
-
We all have inner guidance from GOD.
Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
interesting. Muslims would believe the same, that we are imbued by God with the capacity to seek, to recognize, to respond, to worship.
some may cover up or deny that, yet they lie to themselves, and they wrong themselves, not God, when they do so. kind of like putting your own hands around your windpipe and squeezing, and getting angry about it.
-
Dear Brother
The Decisive Verse is the Verse that I mention in my post regarding fighting, which indicates a precondition for fighting that is "They have to start the fight to destroy or force you into their religion". (as the same condition that happened is Chapter 9). Thus, 9-29 is decisive when the pre-condition exist, but if not, you follow the ones that says you can not fight them, you cannot force them into your religion, and you tell them that your Lord is my Lord and your books are my Books.
God Bless you allFor them to say that verse 9-29 abrogates 150 or even 200 verses I believe is a desperate attempt by the sectarian jusrist to justify conquest. The reality there is nothing in the Koran to indicate this verse abrogates nothing and the verses of the Koran suppliment, not cancel out each other. To try to create a whole religion of 6,666 verse from one verse is desperation. The reality is the Koran is clear as to what the job of the prophet is
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it??
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."
2267 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."
24.54. Say "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
4828 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.3616 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!
-
For them to say that verse 9-29 abrogates 150 or even 200 verses I believe is a desperate attempt by the sectarian jusrist to justify conquest. The reality there is nothing in the Koran to indicate this verse abrogates nothing and the verses of the Koran suppliment, not cancel out each other. To try to create a whole religion of 6,666 verse from one verse is desperation. The reality is the Koran is clear as to what the job of the prophet is
Peace
You are right. Please note that if you make the 9-29 Decisive verse, you need to cancel out hundereds of Decisive verses. But when making 9-29 a pre-condition verse (ALLEGORICAL ), when they attack you, then you do not need to cancel out any other verses in the Quran.
God Bless -
Is this a Medina or Mecca verse?
009.029
YUSUFALI Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. -
Greetings and Peace to everyone!
Let me share some ideas.
Being sincere to what you understand is key to see truth. Be sincere to what you understand. If you sincerely verified that there's God - then be most sincere to Him - not to Books or sayings or whatever.
If you want to believe in an understanding of a holy book - then it would only be done sincerely if you can verify that the holy book is indeed from God - and the understanding/idea is "consistent with Reality = in compliance with Nature/God". (True = consistent with Reality = in compliance with Nature/God). As for those translations/understandings of verses which you can't verify as true/consistent , then "believing" it would probably be insincere.
In the physical preservation sense (like http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm , or http//submission.org/miracle/ - there are miraculous non-man-made patterns - clear evidence - but it doesn't mean that all 19 articles/theories are true, verify for yourself what you can), I am sincerely sure that the Quran is indeed from God and preserved. But I'm not accepting all "translations/understandings/ideas" all people make from it. I try to do my best to understand/believe what can be verified and directed to me.
Many moral issues, are indeed understood/verified by a person's inner moral jundgement in different circumstances - and clearly it's not the same for everyone all the time - so it's always for God to judge.
So, are all verses talking/directed to YOU as a believer in God? Can you verify/understand all verses?
From what I learned, no and no respectively. So don't take the whole Quran (as in one's current understandings) in a "all or nothing" way.As for the physical preservation as mentioned above, yes it is preserved most compeletely until today - so you probably can learn more and more from cross-referencing, if God so wills, if you look at the context well. The preservation as a whole also lets you derive what you can't verify from what you can verify - and re-verify the consistence/harmony again.
For example. Let's consider this 929 issue.
(Yes, there's no abrogation) I would say that this is a decisive verse. And this is explained (in quranic context).
913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
The people referred to in 929 could dangerously mean anyone if it is taken out of context. But if in the quranic context, especially the prophet and the believers with him that time would clearly know who this refers to.
I'm not suggesting to only find some verses to explain other verses, but I'm saying that when you read it as a story... see the context (in Quran inself surrounding verses/chapters, previous verses/chapters - see it like a long story..). And it's VERY important to see to whom the verse is talking to - To whom was God's Messenger declaring the verse to - from the previous verses/chapters. That's why the context/surrounding verses/chapters is so important (If it's taken out of context? see 446,513,541).
In this case back from Chapter 2, God is talking (via the Messenger) to the Children of Israel to accept this Message (via the Messenger which was promised as in 616). And about the warring and expelling that happened, etc... then treaties as in the starting of the chapter 9.
Many things you can understand/learn from the context - and you can possibly learn many moral lessons from them. But if it's NOT a specific instruction to YOU, then it's clearly not the real priority or important for YOU to do it or understand it, and maybe you can never find real provable evidence to understand it in harmony/consistence. Take higher priority in looking/implementing that those which are directed to you, what you should/can understand and do - because it's your own bond/salat to God (the bonds/laws - not rituals... - make you do good, away from evil).
In this case/verse 929 - I would say that it's NOT an instruction to ME, but it was directed to the prophet and the believers with him. And yes, something related to "drive them out from where they drove you out". (And yes, that "you" is not directed to ME.)
As for the why "God and Messenger" issue (it is NEVER said to "Obey God and the Prophet" - well described by brother Wakas in the "Life-guard" example.
Let me repost this excerpt from one old post also
-
The Prophet and Messenger is not the same. The Messenger is the state that the prophet is speaking God's message - perfectly - so God said Obey the Messenger. Now, see 661 - why does God use the word prophet there? Because that's what the prophet did, NOT in the ROLE of the Messenger.
-
Obeying God and obeying the Messenger is the same thing . We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says (, ).
-
The duty of the Messenger is ONLY to clearly deliver the Message , , , , . How to obey him? Obey what he ONLY does (only delivers the Message). He warns with the Quran whomever it reaches (it reached us also) . He reminds with the Quran to those who revere Gods promise .
May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane. -
-
Very good post.
I might add, that as we live some ayas that said nothing to us before, may start speaking, that we evolve in our reception of the message, which is why our evaluation of the whole of it will always be limited, that shouldn't detract from our sincerity, and that if we do not get something out of an aya or of a number of ayas, we should fake it or accept any handed down convention with which in fact we do not communicate.
Salaam
-
stay away from what you cannot understand .. GOD gives understanding of what HE wishes to who HE wishes. If you doubt something in the Quran ... you truly do not understand why it is there .... so just turn away from it ..... till GOD brings you back to make you understand. Do not destroy your faith with GOD by some of the things which you cannot understand in the Quran. God warns us Himself, every act of thought, sight and hearing will be questioned, so don't go where your wisdom cannot lead you.
Peace
-
stay away from what you cannot understand .. GOD gives understanding of what HE wishes to who HE wishes. If you doubt something in the Quran ... you truly do not understand why it is there .... so just turn away from it ..... till GOD brings you back to make you understand. Do not destroy your faith with GOD by some of the things which you cannot understand in the Quran. God warns us Himself, every act of thought, sight and hearing will be questioned, so don't go where your wisdom cannot lead you.
Peace
So, should we stop reasoning when we read the Quran; should we stop asking the people who might have a good answer, when we do not have one; should we stop debating in order to reach the truth; or should all of us ignor good advices from people who have good knowldage in Quran.
Please, clear your post.
Thanks -
Sirohey, please
what do you understand of this verse"And those who have responded to their Lord, and they uphold the communion, and their affairs are conducted by mutual consultation among themselves, and from Our provisions to them they give."
4238
what does mutual mean?
Peace
-
Those who discuss the affairs around them and make a decision .. but there is always a leader who makes the final decision .... when the Messenger is there .. it is he who makes it and when there is no messenger then one has to make the final decision after due discussion .. for me it means discussion not consensus. After the arguments have been made some one has to decide. When we speak of the Quran, there can not be anything that denies anything else in the Quran, if we are overriding one verse by another than we are going to oblivion. The mutal discussion is for everyday issues and whats at hand ... and whenever we are in dispute the decision goes back to the Judgement of GOD ... i.e the Quran.
Peace
-
So, should we stop reasoning when we read the Quran; should we stop asking the people who might have a good answer, when we do not have one; should we stop debating in order to reach the truth; or should all of us ignor good advices from people who have good knowledge in Quran.
Please, clear your post.
ThanksI do not mean at all that we should stop thinking, reasoning or questioning .. just that each of us is at a different level of understanding and if we reach a point that we cannot figure out, we should move on and return afterwards. Keep reading the Quran and it will eventually come ot us as Wills God.
I have now read the Quran over a 100-110 times (with thought, reasoning and the universe around me in my mind) and I can see much more than others .. so some may understand more than me and some less. I can only understand what God lets me and that applies to every created thing, including the Angels, the closest ones of God.
Peace
-
I do not mean at all that we should stop thinking, reasoning or questioning .. just that each of us is at a different level of understanding and if we reach a point that we cannot figure out, we should move on and return afterwards. Keep reading the Quran and it will eventually come ot us as Wills God.
I have now read the Quran over a 100-110 times (with thought, reasoning and the universe around me in my mind) and I can see much more than others .. so some may understand more than me and some less. I can only understand what God lets me and that applies to every created thing, including the Angels, the closest ones of God.
Peace
Thank you for clarifying.
I hope you can share with us your understanding of Quran, so we can all learn from each others.
May God Bless you and increase your knowledge.Peace
-
The Quranic conditions in which killing is tolerable?The decisive verses.
1- Eye for an Eye
2-178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.salaam
verse 2179 must be read in context. some translations
YUSUFALI In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
PICKTHAL And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil).
SHAKIR And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.the critical word in this sentence is 'hayatun' (sorry, i couldn't see the formatting tools). it is usually understood as 'life', but 'hayatun' also means 'bestiality' or 'animalistic behaviour'.
in my comprehension, the first part of 2.179 is 'And to you about 'qisas' is bestiality...." or "And to you (pl.) 'qisas' is bestiality...."
without prejudice please.
peace
joe -
salaam
verse 2179 must be read in context. some translations
YUSUFALI In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
PICKTHAL And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil).
SHAKIR And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.the critical word in this sentence is 'hayatun' (sorry, i couldn't see the formatting tools). it is usually understood as 'life', but 'hayatun' also means 'bestiality' or 'animalistic behaviour'.
in my comprehension, the first part of 2.179 is 'And to you about 'qisas' is bestiality...." or "And to you (pl.) 'qisas' is bestiality...."
without prejudice please.
peace
joePeace
If somebody killed someone intentionally, the judge has the right to sentence him to death, which what the verse prescribe; or if someone is about to kill you, you have the right to defend yourself (killing in self defense).
If you choose to let the person kill you, and not defend yourself, then it is your choice; but if you were a judge, and you chose to set a killer free from death penalty, then you committed unjust to the family of the person who was killed.That is how I interpret it.
Peace -
Peace Ayani and all
The Quran must be taken into its historical context.It is meant for you and me but also for the arabs of the prophets time.The Quran would show them the deeper signifagence of a event by mentioning it.Also sister you will notice in the Quran a immense almost allergic avoidence of mentioning names, people, and groups.Sometimes people dissiper from the actully event and instead a glimse is given of the event and the signafagence is quikly mentioned.Surah Fath.It mentions a manifest victory but what victory.One surah gives permission to the prophet to fight till injustice is no more.But who are those causing injustice and operision.I hope you understand sister. sun
-
Salam ayani. There are two types of death. Death of the spirit, aazab. Death of the body, mowt.
Death of the body, mowt, is a temporary phase in mankinds evolution. Every momin tastes of mowt, this is nothing to declare as some sort of evil or wrong. Allah does no evil or wrong. Man does the evil and wrong by making a claim that mowt is a bad thing. After mowt comes yowm e qiyaamat/day of judgment, and inshallah jannat.
Death of the spirit, aazab, is a severe punishment from which there is no escape. Allah has made it very clear as to which actions will result in earning aazab. Every momin must avoid those actions which Allah has promised will result in aazab.
I apologize beforehand for the confusion of translation, the confusion arises because it is a translation. Please, I implore you resort to learning Arabic. May Allah forgive me for any errors, I intend only to assist in guiding to his path. This verse does not single out a Christian or a Jew. That is mistranslation.
The speaker in this verse is the rooh al ameen, faithful spirit, identifiable by the fact he refers to Allah in and man in the third person. The preceding two verses also refer to Allah in the third person, another indicator this is a continuation of the Rooh al ameens instructions.
Your issue with your reading of 929 is erroneous. 929 translates like this Kill those faiths which do not believe in Allah, and the ones that have no belief in the day of judgment, and those that do not forbid that which is forbidden by Allah and the messenger, and the faith that denies belief in the faith of righteousness, out of those who have been given the book, until they give a planting and are diminished.
What the faithful spirit is saying is that if any person has any belief in anything other than Allah, or if a believes the day of judgment will not arrive, or if that person does not forbid that which Allah and his messenger have forbidden, or does not believe in righteousness, then Allah instructs that faith is to be killed. Note the erroneous faith is to be killed, not a particular person. The rooh al ameen goes on to say of those who have been given the book must give a willing cultivation in their hearts of dimunition
In summary, kill all following beliefs in your heart (a) that anything other than Allah is any good for you (b) that the day of judgment wont arrive (c) that you do not forbid that which Allah and the messenger have forbidden (d) lack of a belief in righteousness. Cultivate a giving of acceptance that you are diminutive.
Allahs way is the only path to life.