Are You a True Moslem
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Peace belalhammad,
Please provide proof from the qur'an that there are 5 pillars one needs to uphold to be considered a "true moslem".
In addition, please provide proof that those who do not follow these pillars are to be considered kafir.Peace,
TayDear Brother
There is nothing in the Quran indicates the 5 pillars to be the only conditions to be Moslem. If you read what I wrote you can note that part of the commandments in the Quran is to believe that prophet Mohamed is the Messenger of God, to Pray, pay Charity, Fasting, and Hij--these are the 5 pillar. But if you perform these 5 pillars and you disbelieve the other commandments, you are not a true Moslem (You believe in some of the book and Kaffer with some).
My argument is, when one of the Moslem scholar consider me a Kaffer because I reject hadiths that cancel out the Quran, I reply to him and say " you have a hadith says that if I perform the 5 pillars, I?m Moslem" -
Peace belalhammad,
Please provide proof from the qur'an that there are 5 pillars one needs to uphold to be considered a "true moslem".
In addition, please provide proof that those who do not follow these pillars are to be considered kafir.Peace,
TaySalam
There are the Verses(٦
How shall Allah guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust. (86-3) Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind. (87)(١
When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars. (63-1)In these two verses, we can note that the Shahada was required from the people who came to the prophet to accept Islam. Moreover, one can ask what is the different between Jews & Christian? The answer is, the Jews do not testify that Jesus is the Prophet of God, and therefore, they rejected the Bible. And the same goes when asking what is the different between Jews, Christian, and Moslem (True Moslem)? The answer is the Testifying ?The Shahada?.
God Bless
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Peace belelhammad,
There is nothing in the Quran indicates the 5 pillars to be the only conditions to be Moslem...My argument is, when one of the Moslem scholar consider me a Kaffer because I reject hadiths that cancel out the Quran, I reply to him and say " you have a hadith says that if I perform the 5 pillars, I?m Moslem"
Understood. Where I disagree is
part of the commandments in the Quran is to believe that prophet Mohamed is the Messenger of God, to Pray, pay Charity, Fasting, and Hij--these are the 5 pillar
as, you used 386-87 to make this an indictment on modern muslims as well.
These ayat speak of those who witnessed and thus believed as true the messenger of God, with clarity, yet went on to reject after having known the truth via firsthand experience. That defines a kafir.
In addition, this in no way makes belief in it incumbent upon muslims who do not fit the above criteria. If one was not witness, then one cannot bear witness. The shahada includes God alone.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace belelhammad,
Understood. Where I disagree is
as, you used 386-87 to make this an indictment on modern muslims as well.These ayat speak of those who witnessed and thus believed as true the messenger of God, with clarity, yet went on to reject after having known the truth via firsthand experience. That defines a kafir.
In addition, this in no way makes belief in it incumbent upon muslims who do not fit the above criteria. If one was not witness, then one cannot bear witness. The shahada includes God alone.
Peace,
TayDear Tay
As we all know, every thing we do is Halal for us except what God excluded in the Quran; thus, testifying that the Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) is the prophet of God, as well as Jesus, Moses, Ibrhim... are the Prophets of God is not Haram, ?prohibited?, or something new that was invented in the religion.
My point is, if you and the group hold the same views regarding rejecting the Shahada, there will be very minimum chance to gather audiences from the Moslem World--they will reject you.
Shahada only for the new comers who did not accept the Quran before as the words of God, and for them to accept it, they have to accept the person whom was revealed to as the prophet of God.
I know that most of us suffered from many of the traditional Islamic teachings, but we cannot let our disliking make us reject every thing, including the right teachings.
May God Bless -
Peace belalhammad,
testifying that the Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) is the prophet of God, as well as Jesus, Moses, Ibrhim... are the Prophets of God is not Haram
I did not say it was haram. Your implication is that it's part of the "shadada", ie, a pillar of islam which leads to the title of the thread Are you a true moslem.
If one wants to include Muhammad or Isa or any prophet or messenger, that's fine and dandy. However, the wording and implications of this thread and the context herein differ from what you've stated above.
Nevertheless, thank you for clarifying.
My point is, if you and the group hold the same views regarding rejecting the Shahada, there will be very minimum chance to gather audiences from the Moslem World--they will reject you.
Brother, this is not a group of like-minded individuals trying to gather anyone. There are plenty of common threads but by no means are they universal here. This forum is for the free individual study of the qur'an.
I know that most of us suffered from many of the traditional Islamic teachings, but we cannot let our disliking make us reject every thing, including the right teachings.
I agree. Thus, just because it doesn't suit your understanding, it should not be written off as someone's dislike. The prudent method is to provide the evidence via al-qur'an to back up one's statements since it is the criterion and the ultimate falsifier. What makes something a "right teaching" is whether or not it stands up as truth, not whether or not it has mass appeal.
Thus, the right teaching in this case would be to say if one wants to include a prophet in their testimony, it may not be haram - depending on the level of one's devotion to that concept in direct comparison to God. The wrong teaching, according to the qur'an, would be to say that inclusion of any prophet's name is necessary to make one a true muslim.
Peace,
Tay -
What makes something a "right teaching" is whether or not it stands up as truth, not whether or not it has mass appeal.
Peace belalhammad,
I did not say it was haram. Your implication is that it's part of the "shadada", ie, a pillar of islam which leads to the title of the thread Are you a true moslem.
If one wants to include Muhammad or Isa or any prophet or messenger, that's fine and dandy. However, the wording and implications of this thread and the context herein differ from what you've stated above.
Nevertheless, thank you for clarifying.
Brother, this is not a group of like-minded individuals trying to gather anyone. There are plenty of common threads but by no means are they universal here. This forum is for the free individual study of the qur'an.
I agree. Thus, just because it doesn't suit your understanding, it should not be written off as someone's dislike. The prudent method is to provide the evidence via al-qur'an to back up one's statements since it is the criterion and the ultimate falsifier. What makes something a "right teaching" is whether or not it stands up as truth, not whether or not it has mass appeal.
Thus, the right teaching in this case would be to say if one wants to include a prophet in their testimony, it may not be haram - depending on the level of one's devotion to that concept in direct comparison to God. The wrong teaching, according to the qur'an, would be to say that inclusion of any prophet's name is necessary to make one a true muslim.
Peace,
TayPeace Brother group
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Say ye "We believe, in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
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If you believe that the Quran, The Bible, and The Old Testament are the Words of God, and contain the True Guidance that God wants for us to follow; and you respect all prophets equally without making any difference between them;
What you can read from Old and New Testament are NOT the revelations given to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord.
They (those mentioned here) have not wrote the stories you have in Bible. In Bible you have stories writen sometimes a century after the real story took place and sometimes even thousands of years later. So stories in Bible are not revelations given to them.
Bible is as hadits.For example although to Jesus was given the Gospel, it is not in the New Testament. Instead we have stories written by others. And they wrote what they heard. They even didnt witness events happening.
See the beginning of Luke 1
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
As you see, its a hadit.And as in case of hadits, even people who eyewitness the events happening, they do not understand the true meaning of it.
For example
Luke 321-22 ...heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove...
Quran 349 Jesus"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by Gods leavesee my point? ;D
Peace -
What you can read from Old and New Testament are NOT the revelations given to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord.
They (those mentioned here) have not wrote the stories you have in Bible. In Bible you have stories writen sometimes a century after the real story took place and sometimes even thousands of years later. So stories in Bible are not revelations given to them.
Bible is as hadits.For example although to Jesus was given the Gospel, it is not in the New Testament. Instead we have stories written by others. And they wrote what they heard. They even didnt witness events happening.
See the beginning of Luke 1
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
As you see, its a hadit.And as in case of hadits, even people who eyewitness the events happening, they do not understand the true meaning of it.
For example
Luke 321-22 ...heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove...
Quran 349 Jesus"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by Gods leavesee my point? ;D
PeaceDear Brother
I'm 105% sure that Original Bible & The Old Testament (The Ones that written in their original language) exist and intact from getting corrupted. After all, if God knew that they will be corrupted, he would have mention that in the Quran, but instead, he asked us to approach them and believe in them as they are the Truth from him. If you set your mind that there is no Good Bible & Old Testament, you not only disagreeing with the Quran, but will not approach the Bible & the Old Testament with the right attitude. The attitude that will make you analyze the meaning of the Words in more depth.Peace
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Peace belalhammad,
Thus, the right teaching in this case would be to say if one wants to include a prophet in their testimony, it may not be haram - depending on the level of one's devotion to that concept in direct comparison to God. The wrong teaching, according to the qur'an, would be to say that inclusion of any prophet's name is necessary to make one a true muslim.
Peace,
TayDear Brothers
Do you say the Shahada when praying? I know that when praying, after the second Raka, we say the known ?El Tahayat???..Ashad ana Laa Elah ela Allah wa ana Mohamed Rasool Ellah? (I per witness that Allah is the only God, and Mohamed is the Prophet of God). Moreover we say it at the end of praying. Also, The known praying Azan includes the Shahada. Thus, each Moslem will have to say the Shahad more than 9 times a day.
Please, let me know your views.
God Bless -
Dear Brother
I'm 105% sure that Original Bible & The Old Testament (The Ones that written in their original language) exist and intact from getting corrupted. After all, if God knew that they will be corrupted, he would have mention that in the Quran, but instead, he asked us to approach them and believe in them as they are the Truth from him. If you set your mind that there is no Good Bible & Old Testament, you not only disagreeing with the Quran, but will not approach the Bible & the Old Testament with the right attitude. The attitude that will make you analyze the meaning of the Words in more depth.Peace
Salam,
I agree with one exception. I believe the part of the gospels that are to be respected are the words of Isa. I equate the teachings of Paul and the rest of the New Testament as Hadith and nothing more. And, in case you did not know this about me, I do not follow Hadith.Salam
Arnab -
Salam Belal,
Dear Brothers
Do you say the Shahada when praying? I know that when praying, after the second Raka, we say the known ?El Tahayat???..Ashad ana Laa Elah ela Allah wa ana Mohamed Rasool Ellah? (I per witness that Allah is the only God, and Mohamed is the Prophet of God). Moreover we say it at the end of praying. Also, The known praying Azan includes the Shahada. Thus, each Moslem will have to say the Shahad more than 9 times a day.
Please, let me know your views.
God BlessI have realized, alhamduliEllah, that my prayer is not about Muhammad; it is about my own personal link to God. Having a third party in between is, in my current understanding, plain wrong.
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Dear Brother
I'm 105% sure that Original Bible & The Old Testament (The Ones that written in their original language) exist and intact from getting corrupted. After all, if God knew that they will be corrupted, he would have mention that in the Quran, but instead, he asked us to approach them and believe in them as they are the Truth from him. If you set your mind that there is no Good Bible & Old Testament, you not only disagreeing with the Quran, but will not approach the Bible & the Old Testament with the right attitude. The attitude that will make you analyze the meaning of the Words in more depth.Peace
6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
6113 That is so the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter will listen to it, and they will accept it, and they will take of it what they will.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. -
I believe the part of the gospels that are to be respected are the words of Isa.
do you believe Isa said
Mt 53"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.but Quran contrary encourage people to learn and use their minds - so not to be stupid or poor in spirit.
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do you believe Isa said
Mt 53"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.but Quran contrary encourage people to learn and use their minds - so not to be stupid or poor in spirit.
To be poor in spirit means to be humble; modest; not proud or arrogant, etc...
Peace
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do you believe Isa said
Mt 53"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.but Quran contrary encourage people to learn and use their minds - so not to be stupid or poor in spirit.
Brother
I'm sure that you will find that either the translation from the original Bible is not accurate or it has another meaning.
My advice to you is to compare the Bible to the Quran, and then you will find the right meaning; as we all know, God said in the Quran that the Quran is the Book that will explain all the misunderstanding that exist in the Bible and the Old Testament.
God BlessTo be poor in spirit means to be humble; modest; not proud or arrogant, etc...
(I like that explanation)Peace
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Salam Belal,
I have realized, alhamduliEllah, that my prayer is not about Muhammad; it is about my own personal link to God. Having a third party in between is, in my current understanding, plain wrong.
I agree with you 100%, brother. But saying the Shahada in praying is not haram; As we all know, praying were taught to us by our Prophet, whom was taught to pray in certain way by our God. The way of praying was taught to our ancestors until it came to us. After all the Quran did not state the way we should pray for a purpose, God only knows why? Thus, I will stick to what I learned since I was young, unless somebody will tell me otherwise from the Quran.
Peace