Rememberance of God
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Selaam wa Rahmatullah
I am happy that you have written this. And I feel that what you are saying might be true. I soo wish to get to that state of feeling like Nothing, I had a brief feeling of it a while back, it was so powerful. I am so sad I lost it, I go through very hard time..
The thing that happened; I wanted to empty myself, and rebuild. Forget everything I say that I am, and give myself new attributes. And by the way you describe, I think it is possible.
Please tell me how you do this programming in detail. Do you sit with a pen and paper and write things down first?
Reciting the Quran, adapting it into the nafs (subconcious?).
I can also feel the person who was speaking about going to the park and just observing without judging. Funny how God shows us. I actually did that a couple of hours ago, just observed those squirrel like things that live in the earth. I felt good.
al-kitaab means life? What you say gives so much meaning to me.
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Peace be upon you Pax,
I am happy that you have written this. And I feel that what you are saying might be true.
I am happy that this message has struck a chord with you, and wether you end up agreeing or disagreeing, I hope that you will seriously ponder and reflect on this position and test it with others, that is how you will come to KNOW.
I soo wish to get to that state of feeling like Nothing
Dont we all? ;D Thats why we sleep everynight. And guess were we "are" when we are sleep and not dreaming? Ahhhhhh that beautiful state of "no-thingness" where we get rejuvinated to come back to the "life of this world", the state of "things", where that latent energy/matter is now moving and creating forms. Aren't all things made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons? Arent all things in a state of vibration? All from that same substance that at its highest (Most High) level is STILL, at peace.
I had a brief feeling of it a while back, it was so powerful. I am so sad I lost it, I go through very hard time..
The "I" cant go through hard times, it is only the NOT "I", your vehicle, the nafs that experiences certain events. So dont identify with your thoughts, images and sensations..doing so is to follow in the footsteps of shaytaan. But this is the struggle(jihad) we are all on earth to go through. This world is the weight room for the spiritual bodybuilders!!! You cannot grow spiitually without resistance. Thank God for adversity!! ;D Or do you think God will let you go on saying (lipservice) that you believe? But when mankind is TESTED as those before them were tested (which by the way means that those before us were not tested with that which WE are not tested with, hint hint to metaphors), then we dont have to rely on belief, we KNOW if you are of the righteous or not! ;D
The thing that happened; I wanted to empty myself, and rebuild. Forget everything I say that I am, and give myself new attributes. And by the way you describe, I think it is possible.
I cannot hold back the feeling to say PRAISE BE TO GOD!!!!! You are absolutely correct! Isnt that Merciful? That God created us in It's image? That we are essentailly NO-THING, and can therfore be ANYTHING? We can re-program our beings to manifest any personality that is necessary for a given situation? Therfore when we are very fiery and aggressive, which is good for certain things like hard work, cutting cold turkey with habits, etc. but need to be cool and calm, like when we are caring for our newborn baby, or trying to persuade someone who has thier defenses up...we can go INSIDE the computer and re program the response.
Please tell me how you do this programming in detail. Do you sit with a pen and paper and write things down first?
Reciting the Quran, adapting it into the nafs (subconcious?).
Basically you must study life (al kitaab- the laws of life) and decide what it is you want to change. Lets say that you come to the understanding that smoking is bad for your healh and you want to stop, but since your subconcious is not very receptive unless you are in a state of "trance", you keep right on smoking, or eating junk food, or worrying about that x- wife/husband, or doing drugs, or being shy, or being depressed. etc etc etc
So what you must do is to get yourself in the state where the sun and moon merge, the twilight zone. This is the "medi-state" where the "I" and the "nafs" can now procreate. It is a verifyable state by means of testing brainwave patterns. So we dont have to be subject to belief, we can KNOW. My Lord, increase me in KNOWLEDGE! ;D This is about "on earth as it is in heaven", The word must become flesh. We are talking about how to make changes in your nueral connections? Therefore we can see EVIDENCE of how salaat prevents evil deeds, because it makes PHYSICAL CHANGES in your brain! We dont have to rely on some belief that doing 2 rakaats here and 3 there, instead of 50 as originally instructed will "butter up" some old gray haired man in the sky to shower gifts on mankind, No! God which is the very conciousness of our beings has created this world based on LAW, VERIFYABLE LAW, and has given us the FREEDOM to program our vehicles to obey the law, or disobey the law. So we are in control of the responses in our lives.
You are asking me however for intricate details, and that requires a lot more details than what I can put here. Let me just say that the God says "believe what is sent to you AND those before you". So we cannot be trapped in just one book for guidance. God did not say "quran" was fully detailed, God said Al Kitaab is fully detailed. Therefore if you want to know more about meditation as I am conveying to you, I recommend the book "Tree of Life Meditation" by Ra Un Nefer Amen.
al-kitaab means life? What you say gives so much meaning to me.
There is RICH meaning in these metaphors, that is why God uses this format. God does not shy from using any similitude for this reason. It is geared towards right brain learning which is superior to left brain learning, and the goal is to be able to unite the "yin" and "yang" , so to speak.
All things are "words". Which means that all things are "sound". Sound is vibration, and dont all things vibrate? Why is your vehicle, that which can manifest any PERSONality, called a "person"? Do you know that the word person means - Per(through), sona(sound)? Meaning that through which a sound travels? What sound do YOU make? Is it the sound of God? Or is it the sound of hatred, jealosuy, envy, lust, worrying, etc? Remember, we were creted to SERVE God, so we must reprogram our vehicles to manifest a Godly sound.
Anyway, God SAYS Be and it becomes. God "speakes" things into existence, therfore all that IS, are God's "words". And what is a collection of words? A book right? Yes, we are ALL part of this might Book of creation, and within it are people who grow spiritually and write thier own God Inspired books to guide mankind, this quran being one of the great reminders, but we are not to get trapped and worship books and forget about AL KITAAB, the fully detailed creation. It is Al Kitaab where we find the LAWS. Why would we be told not to eat pork but not told not to smoke? The guide points us back to Al Kitaab, the creation/life everytime. For example, have you seen that the day merges into night and night into day? Or have you seen the birds flying motionless in a row? (excuse me for not getting exact verse, I am just in a flow right now). Where can we witness these things? Not in a literal book with no pictures. We must look in Al Kitaab to SEE this. Seeing is superior to HEARING. Seeing is right brain, that is why metaphors are used, they create pictures(which are woth a thousand words). That is why ancient egyptians used heiroglyphics to tell God's message.
May you all produce a Godly sound!
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peace be upon you
God which is the very conciousness of our beings
i don't think i understand that very well, would you mind explaining it?
i mean i hear things like that, or something about oneness with God, it seems to go against what it implies in the quran about no one and nothing being equal to God.
or maybe i'm just misunderstanding what you said there. -
Peace be upon you,
would you mind explaining it?
Certainly. God is the core of your being. God is THAT which percieves but itself cannot be percieved. Right? God is the Seer, Hearer, etc. Correct? That is Conciousness! That which sees through the eyes, hears through the ears, etc, but ITSELF cannot be seen, heard, felt, ETC.
Are not all things created from ONE "substance"? Are not all things made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons only in different configurations? So everything is really one substance. So the question you must ask is "since we are one in substance, are we also one in consciousness? And the inevitable conclusion is that it is the very same conciousness that flows through you that flows through me and the dog and cat and cockroach. God experiences the world through Its creation. Did not God say that man is created to SERVE God? Yes, we are the vehicles through which God experiences Its creation.
So when the un enlightened person says "why does God allow violence in my neighborhood?" , expecting some miracle from "up above", the answer is WHY DO YOU ALLOW IT. God works through Its Vehicles.
Lastly, Since conciousness is HIDDEN/I\MPERCEPTIBLE, it cannot be Divided, multiplied, etc. It is ONE.
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peace )
thank you for answering
Peace be upon you,
Certainly. God is the core of your being. God is THAT which percieves but itself cannot be percieved. Right? God is the Seer, Hearer, etc. Correct? That is Conciousness! That which sees through the eyes, hears through the ears, etc, but ITSELF cannot be seen, heard, felt, ETC.
right
Are not all things created from ONE "substance"? Are not all things made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons only in different configurations? So everything is really one substance. So the question you must ask is "since we are one in substance, are we also one in consciousness? And the inevitable conclusion is that it is the very same conciousness that flows through you that flows through me and the dog and cat and cockroach. God experiences the world through Its creation. Did not God say that man is created to SERVE God? Yes, we are the vehicles through which God experiences Its creation.
wait, when you say 'all things' are you including God in this?
'1124 And there is absolutely none like Him'
if we are made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons, then God isn't, according to this verse, right?ok i admit i don't know about us being one in consciousness, i think i heard something like that before, but i always thought it was talking about everything that was created was one in consciousness but not God, since He is not a creation.
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Peace be upon you,
wait, when you say 'all things' are you including God in this?
no, God is "no-things", creation is "things"
'1124 And there is absolutely none like Him'
if we are made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons, then God isn't, according to this verse, right?God is that which organizes the protons, nuetrons, and eletrons into things.
ok i admit i don't know about us being one in consciousness, i think i heard something like that before, but i always thought it was talking about everything that was created was one in consciousness but not God, since He is not a creation.
Consciousness is not a faculty we have, it is WHO WE ARE. Consciousness is that which PERCIEVES creation, but Itself cannot be percieved.
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peace )
hmm, interesting, i still find it a bit puzzling, you say creation is 'things', God is 'no things'... i guess i'd have to ask a very hard question then, WHAT is God?
i understand we all have a different image of Him, maybe that's wrong, maybe it's impossible what i'm trying to do, to grasp the ungraspable, but i would assume that God would tell us about Himself in the quran (or any other book) that would give us an idea of what He is, what He is like, who He is, you kniow.God is the core of your being. God is THAT which percieves but itself cannot be percieved. Right? God is the Seer, Hearer, etc. Correct? That is Conciousness!
are you saying here that God is conciousness?
Consciousness is not a faculty we have, it is WHO WE ARE.
because here i think you imply that we are conciousness.
are we... God? -
Peace,
God is "no-things", creation is "things"
I think that what is meant by this sentence is that the god is not any THING, because a thing has to have boundaries, shape...
The god IS; in truth, only the god is ?existing?.
The god is the highest potential. To allow ?things? to exist, to allow ?movement?, to allow ?time? to exist, a point lesser in potential has to be created. This point is what we consider as ?Point Zero?, ?the void? or ?no-thingness?. And then, energy from the higher potential can flow to the lowest potential making time, space and thus allowing the transitory existence of some ?things?. This is why it is said that we are created through ?no-thing?.
The void cannot withstand ?existence?; the most impossible task for anyone is to find a ?void? or to make ?emptiness?; thus we understand the omnipotence and omnipresence of the god the living the one who ?IS?.--
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Peace be upon you Nerpsi,
hmm, interesting, i still find it a bit puzzling, you say creation is 'things', God is 'no things'... i guess i'd have to ask a very hard question then, WHAT is God?
God is the only being that is. In the oldest recorded tradition, God is expressed as Consciousness/Will on one side and Energy/Matter on the other...and MAn, be created in God's "image" is also broken down that way. God is the no-thing, meaning a state where energy is at rest therefore matter is not formed (all formed creation vibrates/moves). Without any formation there is no "space", and therefore no time. And conciousness has nothing to be conscious of because there are no things. This is the highest level of meditation that can be achieved and MUST be achieved for direct experience of God.
i understand we all have a different image of Him, maybe that's wrong
There is no "Him" to have an image of, there is only behavior to emulate.
maybe it's impossible what i'm trying to do, to grasp the ungraspable
Try only to understand that there is a Grasper, the same IT that is in all of us.
, but i would assume that God would tell us about Himself in the quran (or any other book) that would give us an idea of what He is, what He is like, who He is, you kniow.
Indeed God has been spoken about in many spiritual teachings, only many of the teachings are in metaphors.
are you saying here that God is conciousness?
God is THAT bodiless Intelligence that created the THINGS from Its no- thing. It is THAT which WILLS the energy/matter at rest to MOVE with the WORD/SOUND. BE..and it becomes. It is THAT which sees, hears, feels through the faculties of Its creation.
because here i think you imply that we are conciousness.
are we... God?If God is OMNIPRESENT, then where are "you"? If there is a place where there is only "you", then you are saying that God is not present at that point of space, thus NOT OMNIPRESENT, understand? God is the core of existence. God blew into us of Its essence...so indeed that conciousness we experience is not a faculty, it is our Identity!
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peace )
There is no "Him" to have an image of, there is only behavior to emulate.
well i meant like different people have different opinions what God is. i'm still trying to understand. but basically my wondering is about is God an entity or a being that i can talk to and that talks back to me?
some people give a different impression, like this 'God=conciousness' thing, now when i hear that i start to think of an analogy like us being the drops of water and we fall in an ocean which is God, something like that, if i'm misunderstanding you, i'm sorryThis is the highest level of meditation that can be achieved and MUST be achieved for direct experience of God.
can you tell us more about that meditation, like how it's done, how is it achieved?
Try only to understand that there is a Grasper, the same IT that is in all of us.
i'm trying. kinda focused on this 'IN all of us', 'in' how? as in part of us like emotions or "devil" is a part of us or just knows us inside out (but still remaining seperate from us)?
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Peace,
respectfully.To brother God Within
If prayer (programming) is sitting or lying on the bed and sielntly breathing and thinking of nothing, then how do ablution and 17110 come into this?
GW, can you please explain this indetail, what does 17110 mean, how do you perform it and also the ablution? I mean, if this programming is just sitting and meditating, then how do you implement 17110 into it and what is the difference between ablution with water and dry ablution?
Provide proofs from The Quran.
Thanks.
God bless you.
Peace. -
Peace be upon you Nerpsi,
well i meant like different people have different opinions what God is. i'm still trying to understand.
Yes, that is the problem many face. There is a verse in the quran that states that most have the wrong understanding of God. We are taught as children that God is some object out in space and all kinds of foolish beliefs that we must unlearn.
but basically my wondering is about is God an entity or a being that i can talk to and that talks back to me?
Yes, you can have a conversation with God and God does talk back to you..but I dont want to get into that conversation just yet. That takes us into oracles/divination, etc such as what Zakariah used in quran and many used throughout the bible, etc.
some people give a different impression, like this 'God=conciousness' thing, now when i hear that i start to think of an analogy like us being the drops of water and we fall in an ocean which is God, something like that, if i'm misunderstanding you, i'm sorry
That is an accurate analogy, the SEER SEES through your eyes and mine, it HEARS through your ears and mine.
Quote from God Within on July 18, 2008, 122641 PM
This is the highest level of meditation that can be achieved and MUST be achieved for direct experience of God.can you tell us more about that meditation, like how it's done, how is it achieved?
Sit still in a chair with your hands face down on your lap. Your back is in an S shape so you can get the breath to your lower abdomen. Take slow breaths in and out evenly getting down to about 3 breaths per minute if you can, or as slow as you can get. When thoughts come to your mind dont hold on to them, just let them pass through and dont engage them.....and that will be a great lesson right there, you will see how YOU DO NOT CALL THOUGHTS they come by themselves....meaning that you have a thought processor in your spirit that just throws up thoughts. Like when you are walking down the street and start humming a song you dont like but have heard a million times. Anyway, after ignoring thoughts for a while, with practice you will come to a point when there are no thoughts and images coming through and you are only concious of being conciouness itself!!
Quote from God Within on July 18, 2008, 122641 PM
Try only to understand that there is a Grasper, the same IT that is in all of us.i'm trying. kinda focused on this 'IN all of us', 'in' how? as in part of us like emotions or "devil" is a part of us or just knows us inside out (but still remaining seperate from us)?
Part of us like the SOURCE of us. Part us us like the SEED from wihich the entire tree grows. The tree is not seperate from the seed.
Here is a site online where you can read a book called "Kybalion". It will help you understand more whatr I am saying. It is a quick read, you can go right to chapters called "The ALL in ALL" or "The ALL" for starters.
http//www.kybalion.org/kybalion.asp?chapter=I
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Peace be upon you Alen,
If prayer (programming) is sitting or lying on the bed and sielntly breathing and thinking of nothing, then how do ablution and 17110 come into this?
"Thinking of Nothing" is a preperatory exercise to understand that you are not your thoughts/images, etc. Once you understand that, then Programming involves using your thoughts and images to create scenarios to change your behavior (responses).
17110 tells us not to publicise or hide our programming...meaning dont go build some big temple in the middle of the city and make a big productio, but dont hide it so no one can see what needs to be done, be moderate with it. The verse does not talk about SOUND LEVEL.
GW, can you please explain this indetail, what does 17110 mean, how do you perform it and also the ablution? I mean, if this programming is just sitting and meditating, then how do you implement 17110 into it and what is the difference between ablution with water and dry ablution?
Theres no "details" to 17110 just dont publicize of hide it. Ablution is just mental preperation for what you are about to do. Wet and dry are just metaphors.
Provide proofs from The Quran.
Proof is in Al Kitaab, not quran
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peace)
hmm, i don't know about this tree analogy, i mean a tree grows from the seed, right, so do we grow... from God?
about the ocean analogy, that would seem like that we, humanity as a whole, are God? but how could it be like us being drops and God being the ocean... how does that go with 1124 ?And there is none who are His equal.?
but in those two analogies it would seem like we are equal (or similar at least), unless i'm missing something.a, i've haerd of that meditation, didn't know it can be done for experiencing God. but how do you experience God through that form of meditation? you talk to Him and hear Him talk back, like a direct conversation?
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Peace be upon you Nerspi,
hmm, i don't know about this tree analogy, i mean a tree grows from the seed, right, so do we grow... from God?
Absolutely, what else is there at the core of Being? "We are God's and to God we are returning"
about the ocean analogy, that would seem like that we, humanity as a whole, are God?
The physical vessels you bump into in this world are vehicles of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that is God.
but how could it be like us being drops and God being the ocean... how does that go with 1124 ?And there is none who are His equal.?
but in those two analogies it would seem like we are equal (or similar at least), unless i'm missing something.well let me ask you, if I took you to the beach and compared a drop to the vast ocean, would you say they are equal?
a, i've haerd of that meditation, didn't know it can be done for experiencing God. but how do you experience God through that form of meditation? you talk to Him and hear Him talk back, like a direct conversation?
The INsperience occurs when you cease all thoughts and images and therefore there is nothing to be percieved and you become aware that you are the perciever.
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Peace be upon you,
no, God is "no-things", creation is "things"
God is that which organizes the protons, nuetrons, and eletrons into things.
Consciousness is not a faculty we have, it is WHO WE ARE. Consciousness is that which PERCIEVES creation, but Itself cannot be percieved.
God experiences the world through Its creation. Did not God say that man is created to SERVE God? Yes, we are the vehicles through which God experiences Its creation.
Your initial post resonated very well with me, but this latter stuff is very theosophical and pseudo-gnostic, which is very Un-Quranic. God is above all and created conciousness etc. Saying God experiences the world through us incorrect, we experience the world in order to understand God, who is far above this world....suggesting otherwise is blasphemous (for the lack of a better word).
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Peace be upon you Nerpsi,
Yes, that is the problem many face. There is a verse in the quran that states that most have the wrong understanding of God. We are taught as children that God is some object out in space and all kinds of foolish beliefs that we must unlearn.
Yes, you can have a conversation with God and God does talk back to you..but I dont want to get into that conversation just yet. That takes us into oracles/divination, etc such as what Zakariah used in quran and many used throughout the bible, etc.
That is an accurate analogy, the SEER SEES through your eyes and mine, it HEARS through your ears and mine.
Sit still in a chair with your hands face down on your lap. Your back is in an S shape so you can get the breath to your lower abdomen. Take slow breaths in and out evenly getting down to about 3 breaths per minute if you can, or as slow as you can get. When thoughts come to your mind dont hold on to them, just let them pass through and dont engage them.....and that will be a great lesson right there, you will see how YOU DO NOT CALL THOUGHTS they come by themselves....meaning that you have a thought processor in your spirit that just throws up thoughts. Like when you are walking down the street and start humming a song you dont like but have heard a million times. Anyway, after ignoring thoughts for a while, with practice you will come to a point when there are no thoughts and images coming through and you are only concious of being conciouness itself!!
Part of us like the SOURCE of us. Part us us like the SEED from wihich the entire tree grows. The tree is not seperate from the seed.
Here is a site online where you can read a book called "Kybalion". It will help you understand more whatr I am saying. It is a quick read, you can go right to chapters called "The ALL in ALL" or "The ALL" for starters.
http//www.kybalion.org/kybalion.asp?chapter=I
Kybalion is a new age/hermetic/theosophical/luciferian/magick Book. Many of it's teachings are anti-Quranic. It was only written in the early 1900's. I know a fair amount about this stuff and feel compelled to warn you that it is not a good place to draw ideas from. Some of what it says is true...because the best lies are those mixed with truth, so if you are going to read it, so so using the furqan (criteria) to separate it's truth from its fiction.
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Peace be upon you Follower,
Your initial post resonated very well with me, but this latter stuff is very theosophical and pseudo-gnostic, which is very Un-Quranic. God is above all and created conciousness etc.
What makes you say it is un - "quranic"? Any proclamation from the book(al kitaab) is "quranic", and I am not talking about the 114 chapter book that has been given that title. But that aside, please indicate exactly what statement is not in line with truth (quranic).
Saying God experiences the world through us incorrect, we experience the world in order to understand God, who is far above this world....suggesting otherwise is blasphemous (for the lack of a better word).
Direct experience is always the best proof, this is what Al Kitaab provides, in other words this is what life on earth provides. Al Kitaab is the life around and within us. But I am sure you are looking for references from within the 114 chapter guide, so I will present some references for you to ponder...
It was not you who killed them; GOD is the One who killed them. It was not you who threw when you threw; GOD is the One who threw. But He thus gives the believers a chance to earn a lot of credit. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
And countless times we read..
(603)...GOD is Seer of everything you do
The creation and resurrection of all of you is the same as that of one person. GOD is Hearer, Seer.
So I ask you is it YOU who sees and hears, or is GOD SEER and HEARER?
Did not this guide say that God is closer to "us" than the Jugular Vein?
When God says it is It who threw, not YOU, what does that say to you?
(5156) ...I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
Serve HOW? The same way "our" bodies SERVE "us" , as vehicles to operate within for experience.
Why else pust we purify our minds and bodies? So God can have a sure place to operate from.
Yes, there is one conciousness that manifests through a multitude of vehicles...is there any of you that has had a direct experience greater than that? If so please provide it.
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peace
intersting.
but this 817 would seem as if they didn't have free will.
hmm, still thinking about what/how God is. if He is ONE conciousness seperated into pieces... maybe it would seem mysterious why He would tell us to now worship anything else other then Him seeing that... He, in a way, is us... or why would we do evil in the world? -
Sit still in a chair with your hands face down on your lap. Your back is in an S shape so you can get the breath to your lower abdomen. Take slow breaths in and out evenly getting down to about 3 breaths per minute if you can, or as slow as you can get. When thoughts come to your mind dont hold on to them, just let them pass through and dont engage them.....and that will be a great lesson right there, you will see how YOU DO NOT CALL THOUGHTS they come by themselves....meaning that you have a thought processor in your spirit that just throws up thoughts. Like when you are walking down the street and start humming a song you dont like but have heard a million times. Anyway, after ignoring thoughts for a while, with practice you will come to a point when there are no thoughts and images coming through and you are only concious of being conciouness itself!!
I used to be very skeptical of your posts and I still am but you've described the process of ego-loss which I've become familiar with just this year (not meditation induced ). You hit the peak when you're looking at your body and have no idea what it is or what to do with it. Even that state is lower than ego death where you literally feel, percieve, know, absolutely nothing. All your mental faculties are offline and all you can percieve is consciousness, without even the ability to identify whether it belongs to you or not. An enjoyable experience but it can drive you insane if you're not prepared for it. It's like being back in the womb for a while. I think that state of mind is as high as we can go but I'll be pleasantly surprised if there's anything more.
It's not even like being in deep sleep, that takes thinking. The hypnagogic state of consciousness is also really interesting and enjoyable. Thoughs rich with meaning flying into your head, vivid mental imagery - when you realise you're seeing it, it disappears and the afterimage is left on the inside of your eyelids, a new found source of happiness from within. It's a shame that state is so hard to sustain because noticing you're in it will throw you straight out. In that state it's like your "thought processor" is on overdrive.
At the same time I don't believe in your idea of collective consciousness acting as "God". Consistentency and reproducibility are crucial to finding out the truth. I've met people who have had spiritual experiences with "Jesus" and the "Trinity", others who have had all sorts of experiences with their "Gods". All conjured up by their subconscious. It's true that consciousness more or less acts as a base or foundation for all our thoughts and so on and that's where I see consistency but the fact that people experience what they want to experience stands in the way. Someone experiencing "Jesus" takes away all significance in my eyes even if it's the most powerful emotionally-involved experience of their lives.