Can we make contact with the dead
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This is absurd. You will only be contacting your own imagination.
how do you know that?
This argument is actually an argument you usually hear from Atheists not Muslims.
That question alone suggests to me that you don't believe that God can help you or give you knowledge in any case.
had no idea it suggests that,
also, why can't that question be asked by a muslim?, what about young muslims who don't know much and would like to learn, what, they can't ask certain questions? how will they learn?Well I do not remember reading where we are to ask the dead for guidance. In fact, I can show you verses like the ones listed in this thread where we are to Call on God alone. So, in my opinion the idea of calling on the dead is a waste of time.
huh? who is talking about guidence?
i'm talking about talking to them same as talking to you.
and i see 'calling on them' as idoltary, but 'contacting them' as trying to have a nice conversation, i contact my friends by phone and we talk, i don't ask them for guidence (don't know why we're talking about guidence), we just talk, i'd do the same with dead ones... just contacting them wouldn't be by phone.and with my limited knowledge i always thought God helps in many different ways, one of those ways is sending humans, like sending a human to deliver the message from Him to us.
but this is different, i'm not talking about asking dead ones for help or guidence or anything like that, but to just talk to them. -
peace
i don't think that's talking about dead people and contacting them, read 3513
3513 He merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
3514 If you call on them, they cannot hear you. And even if they hear you, they cannot respond to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will reject your idolatry. And none can inform you like an Expert.we wouldn't 'call on them', just talk to them
well i'd ask them what's it like there, to describe the place they're in, there's some hidden knowledge i'm interested in
I knew you were gonna say this. 3514, on the Day of Resurrection. So the ones called on besides God mentioned in these verses should be humans, real existing people. Please tell me, if the real existing people that are seen as idols cannot hear us. Why should other dead people do hear us?
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Insert Quote
Quote from Arnab on Today at 110030 AM
This is absurd. You will only be contacting your own imagination.how do you know that?
Because it has never been proven that humans can contact the dead either scientifically or other wise to the best of my knowledge.
Quote from Arnab on Today at 110030 AM
This argument is actually an argument you usually hear from Atheists not Muslims.That question alone suggests to me that you don't believe that God can help you or give you knowledge in any case.
had no idea it suggests that,
also, why can't that question be asked by a muslim?, what about young muslims who don't know much and would like to learn, what, they can't ask certain questions? how will they learn?I didn't say it couldn't be asked by a Muslim. I was pointing out that generally you don't hear Muslims ask this question.
Usually, when a person starts asking questions like
"hmm, how exactly does God help? how would He give me the knowledge?"
after someone tells the person to seek guidance from God, it indicates a doubt in the person's mind as to if God actually does help at all.That's true young and new Muslims usually have questions to this nature it is part of the learning process.
I could give you a list of Quran verses, but it may be more beneficial to you to search the Quran yourself for the answers on this particular question. would suggest you search the Quran for times when God answered questions or prayers or gave knowledge to someone.
Quote from Arnab on Today at 110030 AM
Well I do not remember reading where we are to ask the dead for guidance. In fact, I can show you verses like the ones listed in this thread where we are to Call on God alone. So, in my opinion the idea of calling on the dead is a waste of time.huh? who is talking about guidence?
i'm talking about talking to them same as talking to you.
and i see 'calling on them' as idoltary, but 'contacting them' as trying to have a nice conversation, i contact my friends by phone and we talk, i don't ask them for guidence (don't know why we're talking about guidence), we just talk, i'd do the same with dead ones... just contacting them wouldn't be by phone.I understand what you are saying.
If you think about the questions you would ask, you will see that even though you don't think you are asking for guidance, you're questions would mostly be of that nature.
You may want to write down the questions you would ask and look at them objectively.Salam,
Arnab -
peace all
i think you're talking about 23100, but ok there's a barrier that prevents them from coming back here... but there is no mention of a barrier preventing us from going there, right?
can't that be achieved with having an obe, leaving this body which is the barrier(imo) and going there to the astral world which is said to be a place where dead people go to also. perhaps we can go there and talk to them,... or maybe i'm just crazy, lolI believe astral projection or OBE is possible and a whole different universe and laws altogether. Nevertheless I stick to the Quran as my criterion(furqan) and what your saying isn't supported from my studies so far. To be honest it is something I need to look into further but contacting the dead etc from my reading of the quran isn't supported. This would then imply those people that see dead people in astral world would be "virtual" characters like virtual reality.
PEACE
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peace all
Please tell me, if the real existing people that are seen as idols cannot hear us. Why should other dead people do hear us?
well if you're talking about idols, that's different, if i idolize some human he/she will not hear me, my calls, of course, but, if i want to talk to a human being, like friends, just conversing, then they would hear me, because they do have hearing ability. but i wouldn't idolize these dead people, just talk to them, if it's possible to make contact with them of course.
If you think about the questions you would ask, you will see that even though you don't think you are asking for guidance, you're questions would mostly be of that nature.
they would? hmm, 'what's it like there?' 'what do you do there?' ... that's asking for guidence? didn't know that.
I believe astral projection or OBE is possible and a whole different universe and laws altogether. Nevertheless I stick to the Quran as my criterion(furqan) and what your saying isn't supported from my studies so far. To be honest it is something I need to look into further but contacting the dead etc from my reading of the quran isn't supported. This would then imply those people that see dead people in astral world would be "virtual" characters like virtual reality.
PEACE
virtual characters? did not know that.
just heard experiences from other people. -
Salam Nerspi,
I have a Sufi story for you
A certain respected thinker and teacher had written a book on astrology. Some people said that he must be a magician or insane; others believed that this action had shown that there was truth in astrology.
Ultimately a dervish who had travelled many miles to see the sage asked him about the problem, saying, ?Surely astrological work is inconsistent with the Path of the Wise , and the Work of the Elect??
The sage answered
?I make absolutely sure that all my pupils study my book on astrology. In this way they are able to understand that astrology does not work.
When they are completely skilled in the art, I make them interpret horoscopes.
These we compare, and we always find such discrepancies in interpretation, when properly tested, that it becomes self-evident that the system is useful only for imaginings.?
The visitor said
?Could you not simply tell them that astrology is not a true science, as others do??
?Firstly, said the sage, ?If the telling had been effective when done by others, who would still believe in astrology?
When did telling equal understanding?
Secondly, when you have thoroughly investigated one superstition, you are unlikely to be able to sustain or adopt another.?
?So it was not astrology in particular which you seek to dispose of??
No, Astrology is one of the easiest absurdities to study, because its practitioners have allowed themselves to be pinned down to rules?
-From ?Thinkers of the East? by Idries ShahMy point is that many of us have told you our opinions on contacting the dead to which you always have an argument.
If studying ?the art of contacting the dead? is what you seek, then I suggest you study it.
My suspicion is that you will begin by trying to prove us wrong
and then eventually come to the understanding of those of us who say it is a waste of time.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam Nerspi,
I have a Sufi story for you
A certain respected thinker and teacher had written a book on astrology. Some people said that he must be a magician or insane; others believed that this action had shown that there was truth in astrology.
Ultimately a dervish who had travelled many miles to see the sage asked him about the problem, saying, ?Surely astrological work is inconsistent with the Path of the Wise , and the Work of the Elect??
The sage answered
?I make absolutely sure that all my pupils study my book on astrology. In this way they are able to understand that astrology does not work.
When they are completely skilled in the art, I make them interpret horoscopes.
These we compare, and we always find such discrepancies in interpretation, when properly tested, that it becomes self-evident that the system is useful only for imaginings.?
The visitor said
?Could you not simply tell them that astrology is not a true science, as others do??
?Firstly, said the sage, ?If the telling had been effective when done by others, who would still believe in astrology?
When did telling equal understanding?
Secondly, when you have thoroughly investigated one superstition, you are unlikely to be able to sustain or adopt another.?
?So it was not astrology in particular which you seek to dispose of??
No, Astrology is one of the easiest absurdities to study, because its practitioners have allowed themselves to be pinned down to rules?
-From ?Thinkers of the East? by Idries ShahThis is a good sufi story. Do you know of anymore like these from other sufis or even idries shah??
PEACE
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Salam 2Pac-Notts,
If you are interested in Sufi stories a good starting place is Idries Shah's books. He usually has a variety of stories from different authors. If you are more interested in classic Sufi poetry you might try the sacred texts website http//www.sacred-texts.com/isl/index.htm (You'll have to scroll down to the bottom for the Sufi Texts)
Most of Inayat Khan's lectures and writings are online here http//wahiduddin.net/hik/hik_origins.htm
This is also a really good link for Sufi literature http//www.omphaloskepsis.com/collection/index.html
You can also find Rumi's work in Farsi and Arabic online if you do a basic google search.
Enjoy!
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam. This question is phrased in a vague manner. My issue is with the use of the term "dead" Allow me to explain. Based on my reading of the Quran I have come to the understanding that Allah identifies two types of death. The first type of death is the death of the body. The second type of death is the death of the spirit. I understand that with the first type of death, the dead body will be resurrected on the day of judgment. I further understand that in the case of the second type of death, death of the spirit, there will be no resurrection on the day of judgment.
That said, the question devolves into an understanding of the power of Allah. If Allah wills, we can make contact with the dead. Nothing is beyond Allah's power. Allah hu akbar.
There is a valid concern on the part of forum members, that the question may derive from grief from the loss of a loved one. Please recall that Allah advises us, he who has faith in Allah no fear is on them nor shall they grieve.
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Salaam nerspi. Allah has appointed a yowm e qiyaamat/day of judgment for mankind. Allah has stated that on this day each person will be judged according to his hukum and hudood.
The hudood of Allah are that either a person is raised up on that day judged to be righteous and granted jannat/heaven, or they are raised up on that day judged to be wrongdoers and sent to jahannum/hell, or they are judged on that day to have violated the hudood for which destruction/azaab is the punishment and they are destroyed. Allah is mighty judge.
This is the only conclusion I know of that includes all the Quranic references. May Allah forgive me if I make a mistake.The belief of an atheist that they will not be raised up on the day of judgment is a self fulfilling prophecy. Thats what they wish for thats what they will get. Allah is not in the least bit unjust.
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Salaam nerspi. Allah has appointed a yowm e qiyaamat/day of judgment for mankind. Allah has stated that on this day each person will be judged according to his hukum and hudood.
The hudood of Allah are that either a person is raised up on that day judged to be righteous and granted jannat/heaven, or they are raised up on that day judged to be wrongdoers and sent to jahannum/hell, or they are judged on that day to have violated the hudood for which destruction/azaab is the punishment and they are destroyed. Allah is mighty judge.
This is the only conclusion I know of that includes all the Quranic references. May Allah forgive me if I make a mistake.The belief of an atheist that they will not be raised up on the day of judgment is a self fulfilling prophecy. Thats what they wish for thats what they will get. Allah is not in the least bit unjust.
Thanks for the highlighted part. Never looked at it in that way....brilliant!!
PEACE
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I agree with Arnold. Actually, the verses are non specific. So, anyone you call on besides God cannot hear you or respond, etc etc.
That would include "the dead" or statues or what ever else a person may call on besides God.
If you are meant to acquire this knowledge God will give it to you. But I would suggest asking him for it.
Salam,
ArnabPeace,
But what about the Angels? can we call on them? I mean if they assists God then they can assist us too!?
Maria
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Peace to All
Allah the All-Wise makes it crystal clear in his Book that the dead cannot hear... If you keep pursuing this way, then you will simply be defying the Almighty's words..
"Verily you cannot make the dead hear and you can not make the deaf hear the call when they turn their backs and retreat."
"The living and the dead are not alike. Allah makes whoever he wishes hear, but you cannot make those in the graves hear."
This is very clear... Hopefully this case can be closed... At least for me
Allah guides whom He wills...