What momentous sacrifice?
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Isaac/Ishmael were not sacrificed!!
037.104
YUSUFALI We called out to him "O Abraham!
PICKTHAL We called unto him O Abraham!
SHAKIR And We called out to him saying O Ibrahim!037.105
YUSUFALI "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
PICKTHAL Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.
SHAKIR You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good037.106
YUSUFALI For this was obviously a trial-
PICKTHAL Lo! that verily was a clear test.
SHAKIR Most surely this is a manifest trial.037.107
YUSUFALI And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
PICKTHAL Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice. -
Peace be upon you,
In exchange for the sacrifice of an emotion(animal) one gets an increase in Life Force(Qi)...or what this reading refers to as "ruh". In other words, you get more of God's power when you sacrifice wrong thoughts, ideas, emotions, etc. This POWER is what goes out and puts you in the right place at the right time, brings you the things you need and removes from your life things that you dont need, it orders your life just as it does right now for your subconcious faculties. Is it YOU or WE that takes the apple you eat and turns it into flesh? Is it YOU or WE who makes the heart beat? It was not YOU who threw but "WE" threw...
We have to do all we can to increase that Life Force...isnt that what Isa son of Mariam used?
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You saying that Abraham sacrificed an emotion? In this case which? Abraham trusted GOD and was being obedient. Fear?
037.107
YUSUFALI And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
PICKTHAL Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice. -
Peace be upon you,
Yes, either emotion, idea, thought(belief) or image....but all carry the same idea. Ibrahim was stopped from completing a literal sacrifice of his son..showing us that it was not a literal statment but symbolic. At the same time, God's request was fulfilled. Ibrahim, in order to prepare for a literal sacrifice, had to first change his thoughts, ideas, etc...that was the fulfillment and that released the energy, which is the ransom from God.
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Salam pvb,
If you remember in Genesis, when Abraham was going to sacrafice Isaac after he had passed the "test" an "ayil" showed up. Ayil is usually translated as Ram. So Isaac was substituted/ransomed with this sacrafice instead. That is what I believe this passage is speaking of.
(KJV) Gen 2213 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace be upon you,
Yes, but animals have always been symbls for the emotions of man since the beginning of time. You have an animal within you, several of them. And they must be tamed or they will run your life into destruction. Why is the picture of the "devil" always manlike with animal features (horns, hoofs, tail, etc.?). The ancient Egyptians used symbols of hawk headed humans and human headed lions, etc to show this dual nature of being.
Killing an animal does what for your spiritual growth? Does what for your behavior? You must kill your fear, worry, doubt, anger, etc.
Remember God makes some into apes and swine..have you ever seen that literally? Or do you know people whose character can be described in that manner due to thier emotional nature?
Akuna Matata
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Salam God Within,
The Quran and the scriptures have many layers.
Verses can be read and have a concrete, figurative, and a symbolical meaning (among others) all at once and all are correct within the confines of the language.
We can understand that scriptures are a historical account of events that happened to people with names like Abraham, Isa, and Muhammad.
We can also understand the parallel in our own lives when we read scripture.For example There are times that we were personally brought out of Egypt (Miserrr-Misery) and out of bondage into an easier life in worshipping Allah. We all have our own ?Moses? if you will, or more specifically the person who ?pulls us out? of this misery.
The Semitic words are rich with depth and it is easy to see why this language is used for our scriptures. The language itself allows for many understandings and the remarkable part is if you remain within the confines of the words used there will be no contradiction.
For example Beni Israel literally means ?builders of the right/straight/rule of God? it is also correct to say that it means ?children of Israel? because a ?ben? is a child or ?the builder ? of the family name and Israel is another name of Jacob.
Another example God is called Aba by Isa. Literally ?my father? when considering the ancient Hebrew is an ox head and a house combined. This can be understood as ?strong one of the house.? God is always the ruler and the strength of our beyt. This can be understood in many ways.
I don?t want to take this thread too off topic, so I?ll leave this discussion for another time.
So, I was not refuting your statement, I was simply offering the concrete version.
Good to see you back by the way bravoeven though you never really left lol)
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam pvb,
If you think about it every plant and animal you eat is sacrificed. It died/was killed so that you may live by eating it.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam pvb,
You're belief that Isa is "the lamb" that was sacraficed may be based on the mis-translated Aramaic word "alif-meem-rosh-ha" (Amar-ah) in John129
This word actually translates as commandment/instruction/saying/speech or some variant there-of (I'm using a loose translation for discussion purposes please research the word for a better understanding).
Even the translators of the Peshitta had to FORCE the word to mean lamb.
It is translated as lamb 2 times (twice in John) vs the hundreds of times it is translated as I indicated above.
Each time they FORCED the word to mean lamb, in my opinion, they did so to support Pauls questionable and misleading writings.
Incidently "Alif-meem-rosh-ha" appears in ACTS 834 in the Peshitta and it is translated as "did speak"
Even in the OT the word translators usually translate as lamb is "kebes" (not that this is an accurate translation but nevertheless this is how it is usually translated).
The root word "Amar" is one of the words that means the same through out the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic).
Salam,
Arnab -
commandment/instruction/saying/speech - of GOD?
What is the definition when it is directed as labeling a person? John is specifically describing Jesus.
John 1
Jesus the Lamb of God
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
32Then John gave this testimony "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."GOD is doing the sacrifice. What is He sacrificing? What does the Quran say?
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commandment/instruction/saying/speech - of GOD?
What is the definition when it is directed as labeling a person? John is specifically describing Jesus.
John 1
Jesus the Lamb of God
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
32Then John gave this testimony "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."GOD is doing the sacrifice. What is He sacrificing? What does the Quran say?
Salam pvb,
As I pointed out before the "lamb" is mistranslated. Second, there is no talk of sacrifice in these verses.
Salam,
Arnab -
The sacrifice I was speaking of was in this verse
037.107
YUSUFALI And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
PICKTHAL Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.What was GOD's sacrifice that they paid a ransom?
Then of the Bible verse
commandment/instruction/saying/speech - of GOD?
John is speaking of Jesus. What do you believe should be in place of the word lamb?
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Salam pvb,
The Aramaic word "alif-meem-rosh-ha" (Amar-ah) actually translates as commandment/instruction/saying/speech or some variant there-of (I'm using a loose translation for discussion purposes please research the word for a better understanding).
The word "Alif-meem-rosh-ha" (the exact spelling as in John) appears in ACTS 834 in the Peshitta and it is translated as "did speak"
Even in the OT the word translators usually translate as lamb is "kebes" (not that this is an accurate translation but nevertheless this is how it is usually translated).
The root word "Amar" is one of the words that means the same through out the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic).
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam pvb,
I think you may have missed one of my posts on the subject so I'm quoting it here.
Salam pvb,
You're belief that Isa is "the lamb" that was sacraficed may be based on the mis-translated Aramaic word "alif-meem-rosh-ha" (Amar-ah) in John 129
This word actually translates as commandment/instruction/saying/speech or some variant there-of (I'm using a loose translation for discussion purposes please research the word for a better understanding).
Even the translators of the Peshitta had to FORCE the word to mean lamb.
It is translated as lamb 2 times (twice in John) vs the hundreds of times it is translated as I indicated above.
Each time they FORCED the word to mean lamb, in my opinion, they did so to support Pauls questionable and misleading writings.
Incidently "Alif-meem-rosh-ha" appears in ACTS 834 in the Peshitta and it is translated as "did speak"
Even in the OT the word translators usually translate as lamb is "kebes" (not that this is an accurate translation but nevertheless this is how it is usually translated).
The root word "Amar" is one of the words that means the same through out the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic).
I also respect the fact that you are asking for references. So here are all the references I can easily give you on the word Amar
Hebrew
Strong's numbers H559, H561, H562, H564, H565
H559'amar
aw-mar'
A primitive root; to say (used with great latitude) - answer, appoint, avouch, bid, boast self, call, certify, challenge, charge, + (at the, give) command (ment), commune, consider, declare, demand, X desire, determine, X expressly, X indeed, X intend, name, X plainly, promise, publish, report, require, say, speak (against, of), X still, X suppose, talk, tell, term, X that is, X think, use , utter, X verily, X yet.
BDB Definition- to say, speak, utter
1a) (Qal) to say, to answer, to say in one?s heart, to think, to command, to promise, to intend
1b) (Niphal) to be told, to be said, to be called
1c) (Hithpael) to boast, to act proudly
1d) (Hiphil) to avow, to avouch
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number 118
H561
'emer
ay'-mer
From H559; something said - answer, X appointed unto him, saying, speech, word.
BDB Definition- utterance, speech, word, saying, promise, command
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H559
Same Word by TWOT Number 118a
H562
'omer
o'-mer
The same as H561 - promise, speech, thing, word.
BDB Definition- utterance, speech, word, saying, promise, command
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number the same as H561
Same Word by TWOT Number 118a
H564
'immer
im-mare'
From H559; talkative; Immer, the name of five Israelites - Immer.
BDB Definition
Immer = ?he hath said?- a priest in David?s time
- a priest in Jeremiah?s time
- the father of Zadok the priest
- an ancestor of a priest
Part of Speech noun proper masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H559
From the Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
0118 - 'amar
Hebrew Word 'amar
Strong's Cross Reference 559, 3235,
Definition say, speak, say to one self (think), intend, command, promise. (KJV, ASV, and RSV reveal similar renderings.)Derivative TWOT Number 118a
Derivative Transliteration 'omer
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 561
Derivative Definition speech, word.Derivative TWOT Number 118b
Derivative Transliteration 'imra
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 562
Derivative Definition utterance, speech.Derivative TWOT Number 118c
Derivative Transliteration 'emra
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 565
Derivative Definition utterance, speech.Derivative TWOT Number 118d
Derivative Transliteration 'amir
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 534
Derivative Definition top, summit of tree.Derivative TWOT Number 118e
Derivative Transliteration ma'amar
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 3982
Derivative Definition word, command.The Niphal stem may be translated "it is said" and "be called." The Hiphil means "induce to say." The Hithpael conveys the force of "act proudly." The verb appears in the OT almost five thousand times. This common verb, as with its parallels in other languages, has a wide variety of meanings.
This verb shares with four others (pe-aleph verbs) the peculiarity of the quiescence of the initial consonant in a long o, revealing the loss of the consonantal value of the aleph.
The commonest usage of the verb is in direct conversation, whether the subject is God (Gen_13), the serpent in the garden of Eden (Gen_31), Adam, terrified, trying to hide from God (Gen_310), Balaam's ass in his attempt to divert the stubborn prophet (Num_222, the war horse eager for battle (Job_3925), the sea disavowing Wisdom's abode in it (Job_2822), the trees of the forest in search of a king (Jdg_98 ). It is readily seen that the verb is pressed into service in literal contexts, personifications, allegories, and strict narratives. A variety of nouns, clauses, adverbs, prepositional phrases are employed after the verb. Even when synonymous verbs are used (dibber, sawa, 'ana, shaba', nadar, among others), the verb 'amar can be used in the infinitive form with the preposition, i.e. le'mor to introduce the command, oath, response etc.
A usage often confused and incorrectly interpreted on the basis of a study of the English versions alone, is "say in the heart" (Deu_817; Psa_141). The meaning is "think," a subvocal speaking.
Although there are only a few examples of the use, the verb sometimes means "promise." Such is the force of the verb in a passage pointing to God's promise to David for a perpetual dynasty (2Ki_819), the promise to Israel to possess the land of promise (Neh_915), or Haman's promise to Ahasuerus to pay the king for the opportunity to destroy all the Jews of his realm (Est_47).
Although the Hebrew language has a well attested and frequently used verb for "command" (sawa q.v.), 'amar also serves for this meaning. This usage is found in God's command to Joshua (Jos_119), Hezekiah's command concerning the offerings after the cleansing of the temple (2Ch_2924), and Ahasuerus's command by letters to reverse the edict to slaughter the Jews by hanging Haman and his sons (Est_925).
As in modern languages, the Niphal is employed to mean that which "is said" by way of a current saying (Gen_109; Gen_2214; Jer_1614).
An interesting usage, though not a frequent one, is that of "avow," "induce to say." In his closing addresses, Moses reminded Israel that they had vowed through him to have God as their own (Deu_2617-1.
The use of the verb as "act proudly" is found in Psa_944 (the Hithpael). In Isa_616 the sense appears to be "boast" in a good connotation.
The derivation of 'amar is said by Wagner (TDOT, I, p. 32 to be no longer disputed. The root occurs in all the Semitic languages with either the meaning "be visible," "make visible," "see" (Akkadian, Ethiopic, Ugaritic) or "say," "command" (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic). It seems probable that the meaning "to see" or "make visible" is the original meaning. The semantic development to "make plain" then "say" is natural.
Of the more than five thousand uses of the root, the majority hardly need comment. They are close to the equivalent English word, "say." Indeed, the infinitive with l becomes often just a mark of direct discourse somewhat like the quotation marks of English.
However, the word "say" gathers various connotations from the contexts in which it is used and some of these are of theological interest. It is a question, however, how many of these special meanings are inherent in the word 'amar and how many are due to the context.
For instance, 'amar sometimes means "to command." These are cases where the word is spoken by God or some competent human authority. God commanded ('amar) Abram to go (Gen_121). The Lord had spoken ('amar) to Joshua and Joshua executed that word as a command (sawa) (Jos_119). But in the case of the Ten Commandments the synonym dabar is used to introduce them. At their end the Lord said ('amar) to Moses, "Thus you shall say ('amar) to the Israelites." Thus the differences between 'amar and dabar need not be overemphasized.
The word 'amar is used repeatedly by God to introduce revelation. One would suppose that this usage emphasizes that God's revelation is a spoken, transmissable, propositional, definite matter. The "word" does not make it a revelation. God gives the revelation to persons as one person imparts knowledge to another-by spoken word. The word dabar is used in such a context also, "God spoke (dabar) unto Noah" (Gen_815). The formula is frequent in Lev, "The Lord spoke (dabar) unto Moses saying (le'mor), speak (dabar) unto the children of Israel" (Lev_121-2).
God's word is creative. Genesis I has the phrase "God said" ('amar) some ten times. Half of these times it is "God said, let there be" and then it happened. At other times it says "God said, let there be" and then God proceeded to create. This creative word of God is signalized in Psa_339, "He spoke ('amar) and it was done; he commanded and it stood fast." The parallel word, "he commanded" (sawa), and the situation in Gen I may give us a word of warning against thinking that the "creative word does what it says" (TDOT, I, p. 336), as if the word had a power independent of God. Rather, it is God the Creator who does what he will. This will of God is expressed in words of command and they are effective because he makes them so.
'omer. Speech, word, thing, something. (KJV and ASV render in Job_2228, thing; RSV, matter)
A word of wide connotations ( cf. dabar) is variously translated in different contexts. Thus, the term under consideration has been rendered utterance, saying, discourse, matter, promise, plan, purpose, decree, command, and appointment. It is found six times in the OT. The references (Job_2228; Psa_192-3 ; Psa_6811 ; Psa_778 ; Hab_39) appear only in poetic passages and the lofty language of prophecy (poetry). (It should be stated here that 'emer is used forty-nine times; some lexicons list the citations of both words together.) The parallels to the word are commandment, words, voice, meditation, prayer, and law (instruction). Unquestionably, the term most often employed for "word" is dabar, which is used of God 394 times with the force of commandment, prophecy, admonition, or encouragement. In Job_2228 Eliphaz advises Job to find his delight and trust in God, so that if he decides on a "matter," it may be realized for him. The Psalmist in Psa_192-3 refers to the "speech" of natural creation. The use in Psa_6811 possibly relates to the command of God. pictured at the head of his army with the command relayed by heralds (fem of office) throughout the ranks. The force in Psa_778 is to the "promise" of God to the righteous. The reference in the admittedly difficult Hab_39 seems to point to the "oaths" (that is, the promises) made to the tribes of Israel.
'imra. Word, utterance, speech, saying. (KJV and ASV similar, "word"; RSV, "Promise." There are thirty-six uses of the word, mostly in poetry (nineteen references in Psa 119; seven in other psalms) in the singular collective. Because the concept is a prominent one, it is natural that synonyms will be employed to avoid repetition.
Bibliography Heinsch, P., Das Wort im Alten Testament und im Alten Orient, 1922. Jacobs, E., Old Testament Theology, 1955, pp. 127-35. May, E., "The Logos in the Old Testament," CBQ 8 393-98. Mowinckel, "The Spirit and the Word in the Pre-exilic Prophets," JBL 53 199. Richardson, TWB, p. 232. Ringgren, H., Word and Wisdom, 1947. Rundgren, F., "Hebraisch basar 'Goiderz' und 'amar 'Sagen', Zwei Entomologien," Or 32178-83. TDNT, IV, pp. 91-100. TDOT, I, pp. 328-47. THAT, I, pp. 216-19. TWNT, IV, pp. 69ff. C.L.F.
From Vine?s Complete Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament
Say, Speak, Answer
A. Verb.
'amar (H559), "to say, speak, tell, command, answer." This verb occurs in all Semitic languages and in all periods of those languages although it has the meaning "to say, speak" only in the so-called Northwest Semitic dialects (except in Ugaritic) and in Aramaic. Elsewhere the word means "to say" or "to see." This verb is med about 5,280 times in Old Testament Hebrew.
'Amar refers to the simple act of communicating with the spoken word. Usually the word is used of direct speech ("say", although it may be used of indirect speech as well ("speak".
The usual subject of this verb is some selfconscious personality?man (Gen_223) or God (Gen_13?the first occurrence of the word). Infrequently animals (Gen_31) or, in figures of speech such as personification, inanimate objects "say" something (Jdg_98 ff.). This verb bears many connotations and in some passages is better translated accordingly. The KJV renders this verb "answer" 98 times ("say as a response", while the NASB translates such passages "said." In Gen_98 we read "God spoke to Noah" (NASB); the specific content of the communication is not immediately detailed. In Gen_222 Abraham is to offer Isaac on the "mountain of which" God "tells him" (NASB). Moses requests Pharaoh to let Israel go and sacrifice to God as He "commands" them (Exo_827); the force of God's speaking is more than merely making a statement It is authoritative.
In addition to these frequently occurring connotations, 'amar is rendered with many words representing variom aspects of spoken communication, such as "appoint" or "assign" (1Ki_111, "mention" or "name" (Gen_4327), "call" (Isa_520), and "promise" (2Ki_819). Although not always so translated, this word can imply the act of thinking within oneself (Gen_442 and the intention to do something (Exo_214).
When used of divine speaking, this verb may refer to simple communication (Gen_126). Often, however, there is a much fuller sense where God's saying effects the thing spoken (cf. Genesis 1). The phrase "thus says the Lord," so frequent in the prophets, has been analyzed as a message-formula. Ancient Near Eastern letters from, for example, Mari (1750-1697 B.C.) and Amarna (1400-1360 B.C.) contain a similar formula. One might compare our letters which open with "Dear sir." Divine messages are often concluded with the words "says the Lord." The Bible recognizes that behind the divine speaking is divine authority and power.
The Septuagint renders this verb by over 40 different Greek words and most often by lego ("to say" and eipen ("he said".
B. Nouns.
'emer (H561), "word; speech." This noun appears 48 times. 'Emer refers to "words" in Pro_21 "My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee."
Several other nouns are related to the verb 'amar. 'Imrah also means "word, speech," and it occurs 37 times. One occurrence of 'imrah is in 2Sa_2231 (cf. Psa_1830). The noun 'omer is found 6 times and means "word, speech, promise" (Psa_6811; Hab_39). Ma'amar and me'mar mean "word, command." Ma'amar occurs 3 times (Est_115; Est_222; Est_932), and me'mar occurs twice (Ezr_69; Dan_417).Aramaic
Strong's numbers H560,H563
H560'amar
am-ar'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H559 - command, declare, say, speak, tell.BDB Definition
- (Peal) to say, to speak, to command, to tell, to relate
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number corresponding to H559
Same Word by TWOT Number 2585
H563
'immar
im-mar'
(Chaldee); perhaps from H560 (in the sense of bringing forth); a lamb - lamb.BDB Definition
- lamb
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number perhaps from H560 (in the sense of bringing forth)
Same Word by TWOT Number 2585?
From The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
2585 - 'amar
Aramaic Word 'amar
Strong's Cross Reference 560
Definition say, relate, command. Used like the Hebrew 'dmar. The Hebrew dabar has no parallel in BA. The verb is often used with 'ctsind in the idiom answered and said, a common semitism in the NTI find it interesting that The Theological Word Book of the OT does not acknowledge that Amr could mean lamb. BDB seems confused by this and actually published a question mark after their reference number.
Arabic
From Project Root List
= Alif-Meem-Ra = command/order/enjoin, authority/power/dominion, counselled/advised/consulted, hold/appoint command, preside as a commander/governor/prince/king, experienced, become many/abundant.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmTo read the actual Lane's lexicon text on the Arabic word follow these steps
- Go to http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
- At the very top is a list of Arabic letters Click "Alif"
- Scroll down to "Alif-Meem-Ra" it is located a little over half way down the page.
- Go to the end of the summary and there are links to the pdf pages where you can find the word. (In this case vol. I page 132 is where the word is first found). When you click the link the pdf page will load automatically.
There are two times in the OT where Amr is translated as lamb (Ezr 69 and Ezr 717) I believe these are mis-translations as well. This is especially evident when one reads the context of the verses (IN HEBREW).
There are those of us who study the Quran in the same manner, we find translators twisting words from the Quran into a translation that is very obscure and we know does not fit. That is why you find so many Muslims trying very hard to re-translate the Quran. They are trying to erase the mis-translations that lead to mis-understandings.
If you want to see the Aramaic from Peshitta.org and compare how the word is translated and why I say ?lamb? is a mis-translation follow these steps
- Go to Peshitta.org
- On the left the is a list of folders. Click on the folder that says ?Tools.?
- Three links and a folder will appear. Click on the link entitled ?Lexicon? This will bring up the Aramaic Lexicon and Concordance tool.
- Type in the box ?rm0? the last entry is a zero. This is to bring up the word Amr using the Peshitta font encoding system. You cannot simply type in AMR since Peshitta has its own system. You will notice that the word is also typed in a backwards transliteration. This is also due to Peshitta's system. The zero represents the Alif the M represents the meem and the r represents the ra. It is typed right to left as you would read it in Aramaic.
- IMPORTANT make sure that underneath the entry box you select ARAMAIC ROOT. If English is selected or any other you will get a different result. The reason I want you to select ?Aramaic Root? is that it will list all the places where the root is used in the Peshitta along with a concordance to the right that documents how many times the word is used.
As you scroll through the list you will see how many times Amr is used and translated as ?speak, say, affirm, promise, etc? all forms of speech.
Then look at the times it is mis-translated as lamb.
Another tip if you go to John 129 where the word is located, highlight the word and copy using your mouse, you can then load the Aramaic lexicon and concordance for the site in another window and paste the word, click Aramaic root or Aramaic word from the selections below the text box and it will bring up all the instances of the word with a concordance to the right.
so here are some other facts on Amr
In the OT the word is translated as
Said, saying, speak or some variation thereof (the exact list is very long but I can give it to you if you request it- with the exact verse of each occurance)approx 5442 times (this number is only counting the root...not the derivatives)
The different times Amr is translated as lamb in the OT is TWO.
In the Peshitta the word Amr is translated as speak, say, affirm or some variation thereof in every instance except TWO.
It's like the old adage Even if you call a duck a giraffe if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
If you have any more questions I'll be happy to answer them.
Salam,
Arnab - to say, speak, utter
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Yes, I see the word "amar" translated as "and said" in John 129. It does not appear to be the same word that is translated as lamb "immar" in that same verse.
I pasted the verse from
http//www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/4_John/Yukhnch1.pdf
.29
Lq4d
who takes
wh
He
0hl0d
of God
hrm0
the Lamb
0h
behold
rm0w
and said
htwl
towards him
Yhwl9
concerning
trm0
spoke
0n0d
whom I
wh
he
wnh
this isLooking up all the definitions
.29
Lq4d =take up, bearwh =He, it, is, that, those, who
0hl0d =God, god
hrm0 = affirm, say, speak, announce, lamb, sheep
0h =behold, lo
rm0w =affirm, say, speak, announce
htwl = to, toward, against
Yhwl9 =enter, bring, on, about, concerning
trm0 = affirm, say, speak, announce
0n0d =I
wh =He, it, is, that, those, who
wnh=
This verse needs to be compared to the greek too, because the disciples wrote to greek speaking people.
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Salam pvb,
I am not talking about what they translated as "and said" in that verse on peshitta.org.
I am talking about the word they translated as "lamb."
The word in Aramaic is Alif-meem-ra-ha and when you read the Aramaic right below the word they say is "lamb" this is very clear.
Please only look at the word they say is "lamb" for now, then we can move on to the rest if you like.
And, I do not believe in the Greek primacy. Furthermore, I do not read/speak Greek at this time, so I would be unable to help you to any real degree there.
Salam,
Arnab -
LOL!! OK we are on the same page. Remember I am new at this!!
Does it have to do with grammer? This would be a new word for these people- a human sacrifical lamb. Would there even be a word to cover this idea in Hebrew?
The hrm0 lamb is connected to God and Jesus, a sacred lamb, a symbolic lamb. In Mark 1427 rm0 is in the word signifying Jesus' lambs, followers, Yhwrm0. John 2115 again His lamb, Yrm0.