My Understanding of 4:15-16
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Huruf....thanks for the extra info, i have only been studying the Quran for a mth, so info like that helps...... )
Soof, oops! jedi (let me just hide now)
I have to leave this topic alone ....all my life I have been a supporter of peoples right to choose there sexual partners, without judgement, and I dont like what I am becoming here now....its only been in the last mth that i have changed my views.....I felt a connection with a man who is homosexual and we are now not talking cos I said how I felt..... ( '(..........I can hardly be rational in this discussion anymore.....Im messed up.... prHappy days and peace to you all
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4211 Initiator of the heavens and the Earth. He created for you from among yourselves mates, and also mates for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing that equals Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.
Mates =
Root =
235 And they cover their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are committed to them by oath, they are free from blame.
237 But whosoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.7029 And those who conceal their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame.
7031 Then, whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.3511 And God created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into pairs. And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for God.
567 And you will be in three groupings.
568 So those on the right, who will be from those on the right?
569 And those on the left, who will be from those on the left?
5610 And those foremost, who will be from those foremost?788 And We created you in pairs?
26166 ?And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!?
Mates implies a heterogeneous entity.
Peace
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you know a good argument that homosexuals could use in relation to all this paring up and mating, is that the world is over populated as it is......Even without offspring though, i do still believe a man and woman together can help one another,. on this journey called life.........
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you know a good argument that homosexuals could use in relation to all this paring up and mating, is that the world is over populated as it is......Even without offspring though, i do still believe a man and woman together can help one another,. on this journey called life......... (
Boomy, boomy, don't tempt fate. There are too many warmongerers and invaders lurking, and also unknown flu virus and other pests looking for new worlds to conquer... Overpopulation can become a thing of the past in less time than it takes me to change mental sex, so don?t even mention it.
Concerning mutual help. Yes undoubtedly. There are a lot of things that man and woman can do to each other and, although not all necessarily helpful, some even completely destructive and anihilating. That is a part of the Exchange that cannot be overseen and which in fact can completely put off the other sex, the enormous power to destroy you that you put in the other?s hand. And then society (narrowmindedness, automatomatisms, prejudice, lack of charity, ignorance?) can, already even from birth, utterly destroy people?s sexual selfesteem, emocional self-assurance, mental stability and in fact make real emocional and mental cripples out of otherwise healthful people. That is why I say that the question of sexual orientation or preference or sexual disfunction or suffering of any kind or whatever is very large, very complex and it is well worth that a person who has conflicts on that area (might be we all) should do real deep introspection and try to find his deep honest soul in all sincerity and without any prejudice. Entourage can do real wonders to destroy individuals.
But in the best of cases an alliance (marriage) to a person of a different sex can be a real learning of humility and a satisfaction for being able to give genuinely from your heart something that costs you and of accepting likewise. In the worst case you can learn a lot from negative experience.
(As an aside, I know, I think that many of us know, that a number of gays are so out of pure undiluted lust. I usually don?t talk about that because that is plain and the equivalent of any hetero who also follows lust. However there is a part where lust and curiosity intersect, and that is a source of a lot of things that might have better not happened, since as it is the common saying, once you try IT you can?t leave IT. But I will not go into that here and I think we are talking about mostly other kinds of situations, which may have arisen out that, but which develop into something else.)
I apreciate very much the sincerity and honesty of people who have spoken on this thread. It costs, it is a bit like undressing (chastely), but I am sure every effort and sincerity and honesty for the sake of truth, particularly to oneself, has its rewards and helps overcome suffering and may help others to see more clearly, understand people better and also be less judgemental and more helpful and less self-centered.
Salaam all and may God bless all sincere efforts.
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Boomerang,
Islam, which is your faith, doesn't tell you to alienate your gay friends. Perhaps you're not prepared to accept that God doesn't have a problem with same-sex marriage, but atleast accept that God doesn't have a problem with you befriending gay people (608-9). Lots of people who convert to Islam make rash decisions about their lives, their friends, etc., but this is completely avoidable.
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The world as God has made it is a miracle. It is my experience and observation that no matter what wrong we may have done, once it is done, from that situation which our wrong brought about, there open possibilities to do right that were not there before the wrong. That is the miracle, wrong is wrong, but once you have the result of your wrong doings, with that you can do unforeseen rights, and that is a reason I guess, why God allows us to do wrong.
No matter where we are, where we come from, what we have right now in our hands is full of hope, is pregnant with something that can redeem us. We must look forward, God is so very generous. We just have to be quiet and see and listen and be honest and open. Whatever good we get is never us, it is a Gift for which we must be open, and however bitter it seems to us at a given moment, we must be patiente opening the package, because at the core of it there is always a gem.
Salaam, and may God bless those who strive
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The world as God has made it is a miracle. It is my experience and observation that no matter what wrong we may have done, once it is done, from that situation which our wrong brought about, there open possibilities to do right that were not there before the wrong. That is the miracle, wrong is wrong, but once you have the result of your wrong doings, with that you can do unforeseen rights, and that is a reason I guess, why God allows us to do wrong.
No matter where we are, where we come from, what we have right now in our hands is full of hope, is pregnant with something that can redeem us. We must look forward, God is so very generous. We just have to be quiet and see and listen and be honest and open. Whatever good we get is never us, it is a Gift for which we must be open, and however bitter it seems to us at a given moment, we must be patiente opening the package, because at the core of it there is always a gem.
Salaam, and may God bless those who strive
Im actually printing you post off and putting it on my fridge ....if thats ok.....I need this reminder daily....
kind of makes me a bit teary.....in a good way, cos I know that you are right and I know that God is so poignant............. -
I just read Yuksel's commentary on 415 . His understanding of 415 is similar to mine. I disagree with his theory that the witnesses mentioned in 415 can be organic nitrogenous bases (A, T, G and C) and his theory that the punishment prescribed in 415 is for prostitutes who've been convicted four times, but I agree with the rest of his interpretation. Like Yuksel, I believe that Quranic laws apply only to those who willingly come under Islamic jurisdiction (541-52 and 1096) and that 415 is about prostitutes. I also learned something new from his commentary. I learnt that Alathani, which appears in 416, can mean a man and a woman, or two men.
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I think the fact that the word Alathani (which appears in 416) means "Two men" as well as "A man and a woman" is important because it connects 416 with 415 even more since women are mentioned in 415 and I think God chose the word Alathani (instead of all the other words It could've used) for another reason too to indicate that prostitution is illegal for men too. Alathani is slightly vague, which I believe is the reason why God chose it because it's use allows several meanings to be conveyed succinctly.
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I agree with that. In fact it matches what I would expect from the Quran rather that the lose and non-commital jail them at home till somehow aan earthquake breaks the walls. Prostitution is not usually doen out of choice but out of need and for lack of a better issue. To take the women off the street is a way to protect them from something they themselves couldn't. I don't think it is a question of keeping them jailed till they die, because no punishment can be open like, that with the choice that may be something else happens. Rather than of a punishment what it seems to be talking about is how to keep them from going back to the same thing again. That it is necessary to have four witnesses is again to show that you cannot go about brandishing words that may speak ill of somebody and that if you say something so damaging for somebody's reputation that it is indeed a public thing. To me it makes more sense than homosexual acts interpretation.
Salaam
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I agree with that. In fact it matches what I would expect from the Quran rather that the lose and non-commital jail them at home till somehow aan earthquake breaks the walls. Prostitution is not usually doen out of choice but out of need and for lack of a better issue. To take the women off the street is a way to protect them from something they themselves couldn't. I don't think it is a question of keeping them jailed till they die, because no punishment can be open like, that with the choice that may be something else happens. Rather than of a punishment what it seems to be talking about is how to keep them from going back to the same thing again. That it is necessary to have four witnesses is again to show that you cannot go about brandishing words that may speak ill of somebody and that if you say something so damaging for somebody's reputation that it is indeed a public thing. To me it makes more sense than homosexual acts interpretation.
Salaam
True. Prostitutes are often the victims of crimes. Quite a few of the prostitutes in developed countries come from third world countries and these prostitutes were tricked into prostitution. Many of them were desperate to find work, so they trusted people who told them that they'll find them respectable jobs like waitressing etc., but when they were taken abroad, they were beaten, raped and then forced to become prostitutes. I think God wants us to put them under protective custody till they can find respectable jobs, or find any other way out of prostitution.