New Salat Article
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Thanks Wakas for the link.
Peace Layth
In the Quran the fajr and isha salat and the night salat are described quite specifically with relation to their timing.
Wusta means middle. Middle is not a time period of a day. Your timing of Wusta is your opinion without support from the Quran. The timing you specify, is not middle of day.
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Salam Layth
Excuse me for jumping into this thread again.
I just noticed verse 2458, in which salat fajr and isha are mentioned by name, designates the time period you have specified for salat al wusta as the time for resting. It seem quite unlikely if there was a salat around noon, the Quran would have given priority for mentioning "taking your clothes off and resting" over describing the salat during that period.
Again like to remind you wusta/middle is not a time period of a day. While the Quran seem quite accurate/detailed in specifying time periods for 3 other salat ( fajr , isha and additional night salat in 1779) will it casually mention "middle" for the most crucial salat ?
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Salam Wakas,
Thanks for the reminder )
For your view to hold
- you consider the zenith of the sun to be an edge of the day (I dont think anyone would subjectively call this an edge of the day, in fact, I would be very surprised if you asked anyone "how many edges of the day are there? and they mentioned the zenith, or more than two etc)
The Qur'an confirms that the day has more than 2 "parts/edges".
20130 So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during
the night glorify; and at various parts (atraaf) of the day perhaps you may be content.Therefore, the statement that a part other than dawn/dusk is a "part" is completely correct.
- you do not consider the sun setting to be an edge of the day, thus would have to explain why the sun rising is considered an edge and not the latter. I personally cannot see how this can be answered well.
That is an incorrect asumption. The setting/dusk is a part/edge, just like dawn is a part/edge. What I am saying is that, according to the Quran, there are more than 2 such parts - which makes 11114 show in a different light.
- "and the near/adjacent parts of the night" suggest they are in relation to the two edges just mentioned due to the use of "near/adjacent", whilst your interpretation does not.
The 2 parts/edges are independant from the near/early night in the verse - so to relate them is an assumption.
- you take 1778 to state a time-range (which you take as "wusta" and interpret that to mean one does it anytime in this time-range (I assume) even though the verse does not say such a thing
The verse says "till" which is not the case with the other 2 Salat times given. So, you have x till y in the verse - that is a time range.
- you are forced to take "wusta salat" to last until "darkness/ghasaq of the night" as per 1778 but this results in a contradiction in your view for the "isha salat" timing which you state "lasts until deep darkness". This is impossible unless you can clarify the difference between "ghasaq/darkness of the night" and "deep darkness" from The Quran.
The contradiction comes from mistranslation. Ghasaq is not "darkness" of the night, but "darkenning" which is the area of twilight. The Isha Salat is the early part of the night - total dark being night.
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Salam Warner,
I just noticed verse 2458, in which salat fajr and isha are mentioned by name, designates the time period you have specified for salat al wusta as the time for resting. It seem quite unlikely if there was a salat around noon, the Quran would have given priority for mentioning "taking your clothes off and resting" over describing the salat during that period.
Again like to remind you wusta/middle is not a time period of a day. While the Quran seem quite accurate/detailed in specifying time periods for 3 other salat ( fajr , isha and additional night salat in 1779) will it casually mention "middle" for the most crucial salat ?
The "resting" you refer to has no contradiction at all when you see that the Wusta Salat can be held from noon-dusk. Thus, if the Quran linked it with noon, then the range that has been given fades away in relevance. The Wusta is the middle of the 2 Salat's, not the middle of the day.
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Peace,
I'm about 8 years late to the party, but just out of curiosity, are the views in the original post still upheld by anyone here including Layth? Or have they since changed? I'm only inquiring as I see the salat articles are all back to a physical daily act, unless I'm not seeing this one there and more people have contributed their views since.
Just wondering where people stand, that's all.
May peace be with you all.
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Salam,
I'm about 8 years late to the party, but just out of curiosity, are the views in the original post still upheld by anyone here including Layth? Or have they since changed? I'm only inquiring as I see the salat articles are all back to a physical daily act, unless I'm not seeing this one there and more people have contributed their views since.
My view on Salat has always been that it is physical. The only change on the article at the begining of this thread is with regards to the timing - I had incorrectly assumed the Quran spoke of 2 times, when a more careful look shows 3 (the error was mainly in assuming the day only had 2 parts/edges).
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Peace,
I'm about 8 years late to the party, but just out of curiosity, are the views in the original post still upheld by anyone here including Layth? Or have they since changed? I'm only inquiring as I see the salat articles are all back to a physical daily act, unless I'm not seeing this one there and more people have contributed their views since.
Just wondering where people stand, that's all.
May peace be with you all.
happened to me the same
the 1st post was great, made perfect sense, and it s exactly what i think, but than i see different posts , in the 1st post salat isn't a ritual at all, but than it sounds like a ritual
well, salat isn't a ritual at all, that is my conviction. and salat to me is where we see the senat arguing about the problems of the nation. remarq that in the muslim countries, the mosques are full of believers in the salat rituals, and the senats/congresses the rooms are empty of deputies /representatives/congressmen, while full of a few corrupt people, who ignore that, it is the real salat they are using to serve westerners and to opress their own people.
I believe this was the whole point of making the Salat a religious rituel, and it was invented by westerners frensh?british when they destroyed the largest muslim empire in history, they did it so never muslims serve their copuntries and their people , and thus, looses salat -
That is an incorrect asumption. The setting/dusk is a part/edge, just like dawn is a part/edge. What I am saying is that, according to the Quran, there are more than 2 such parts - which makes 11114 show in a different light.
This is an incorrect assumption. In Arabic plural can be used for dual as you can see here in "qolubukoma" where qolub is plural despite that it is talking about two entities and would have normally been "qalbykoma".
There are many other examples.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Layth,
Your article on Salat was very interesting. I am still a little confused though. Are you saying that Salat is only conducted when there are issues to sort out? It's interesting because your article coincides with a question I asked about whether Salat should be said alone or in a group or either. I asked this, because I normally pray with my husband, but when I have my own private issues to sort out, I am loathe to say them in an audible voice. Besides, our voices would clash, were he also to have his own private issues to voice. Therefore, I feel your interpretation must be on the right lines.
As I said, I am confused. If we only hold Salat in a group to discuss issues, does this mean the ritualistic Salat is not required. I ask this, because of the verse about when Solomon forgot to pray before sundown. There is no mention of anyone else taking part in this prayer with him.
Peace.
Dawn.
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Muhammad is the Messenger of God. Those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers merciful one to another. You see them bowing, prostrating, seeking blessing, bounty and good pleasure (of God). Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows strong and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them it may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage(4829)
Genesis 171-4 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Deuteronomy 56-9 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before Me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them nor serve them...
Psalm 956 O come, let us worship and bow down let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
Revelations 711-12 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Joshua 76-7 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. 7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord God, wherefore hast Thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? Would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side of the Jordan!
Numbers 1620-22 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt Thou be wroth with the all of the congregation?
Numbers 206 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.
Matthew 2636-39 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gesthemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be very sorrowful and heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death; tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou Wilt.
Then the man bowed down and worshipped the Lord. (Genesis, 2426)
...So they sang praises with gladness and bowed their heads and worshipped. (2 Chronicles, 2930)
and I bowed down and worshiped the Lord. I praised the Lord?(Genesis, 244
.... Then the people bowed down and worshipped...did just what the Lord commanded Moses and Aaron. (Exodus, 1227-2
and they believed. And when they heard that the Lord was concerned about them and had seen their misery, they bowed down and worshipped. (Exodus, 431)
and bowed down...three times, with his face to the ground. (1 Samuel, 2041)
Ezra praised the Lord, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground. (Nehemiah, 86)
Abram bowed with his face touching the ground...(Genesis, 173)
When Abraham's servant heard what they said, he bowed down to the ground before the Lord. (Genesis, 2452)
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshipped. (Exodus, 34
When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. (Numbers, 164)
the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened. (Numbers, 244)
Then Joshua bowed to the ground in reverence...(Joshua, 514)
When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The Lord?He is God! The Lord?He is God!"(1 Kings, 1839)
when I bow down in the temple...may the Lord forgive your servant for this. (2 Kings, 51
they bowed low and fell prostrate before the Lord. (1 Chronicles, 2920)
they knelt on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshipped and gave thanks to the Lord...(2 Chronicles, 73)
... the king and everyone present with him knelt down and worshipped... ordered... to praise the Lord. So they sang praises with gladness and bowed their heads and worshipped. (2 Chronicles, 2929-30)
Then he fell to the ground in worship and said ?Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.? (Job, 120-21)
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salam to all who contribute to this important article.
i am sorry to express my ignorance about all this fact from QURAN and still practicisng the same old way.
i need to come to the right path , is there any person can help me by providing the step by step method and timing of
prayer , how could i pray . i have not read all the reply and the texts but i do read quite a number and found in a confused situation .
this is because the whole thing is a great change for me and still are not satisfied with the facts that what ever we known are wrong .
please someone/ wise one/ senior members do some help. now i cannot perform my salat and i am feeling guilt that i am not thanking my creator ALLAH THOUGH I REMEMBER HIM every time.
peace to all brickwall -
Peace Sahush,
I know exactly how you feel, hence my last post. However, what I have done so far is my husband and I had an issue to sort out between us and we discussed it through salat. We arranged to meet having done wudu etc. We followed all the rules of prayer, low voice etc., and quoted the words we are supposed to quote. Instead of the normal falling out, we found ourselves observing very carefully and being very aware of the rules of salat. Result? An exremely productive outcome in the name of God. Like you though, I am acutely aware and conscious that I am not doing the 'normal' contact prayers. I do find myself remembering God more though, because I am not doing it 3 times daily in a ritualistic manner. I find I am remembering him appropriately. Thanking him automatically when good things happen, calling on him in times of danger, asking for his help when I am nervous etc - I do all this in my head or under my breath.
It would be useful and interesting to hear what others do.
Peace,
Dawn.
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ASA Layth, great article! opened my eyes to a better understanding of salat. I recently had a close friend call and state to me during a recent visit for morning prayers, that he spoke with a Hafiz and scholar who told him there are (5) prayers mentioned in the Qur'an and he would share with me soon.
The Hafiz told him that to establish salat means more than just prayer. I wish I could have spoken with the scholar myself.
Thanks for all of the wonderful things you have done over the years. May Allah reward you in this life and the next.
Charles A.S. Hawkins Jr.
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i have read post 1 and i am amused.. however i dont agree.
sometings i get the feeling that this crazy generation is intent on making up new age translations or rules regarding worshipping god - we forget to look to our history to help us find the truth of the creator.
the Quran is all we need.this word sillah is the bone of contention - someone has come up with it to say this is the root word for salat - meaning assembly..
the hadith mention at the start - All this is irrelevant ? since we cannot honestly and with truth confirm this. What is a fact by my limited understanding is that we are enjoined to uphold the deen of ibraham ? 4213, 2135, 16123.
Practices have been given to mankind since the time of Abraham - so It makes no logical sense for me that salat is a new introduction and by implying for muhammed to bargain the number of salat per day for the people. No where in the Quran can I find a verse concerning itself with frequency in terms of number of salat other than frequency in terms of when to perform salat. ? which based on my current understanding is 3 ? fajr wusta and ishah.we are also caught up with the duality in translation of the word - salat and dua.
It is a matter of interpretation for want of better words trying to find words that people can connect with - if this error was not made or simplistic generalised word used for Arabic in the Quran maybe we wont be having this thought - Dua( which is regarded as prayer) and Salat( which is also generally regarded as prayer) are two different things.for me dua is a call/ request/wish/supplication
salat is prayer in the sense of an obligation/directive to God.Dal, ayn waw.
The triliteral root dl ayn ww ( و occurs 212 times in the Quran, in seven derived forms
? 170 times as the form I verb da (ا
? three times as the form VIII verb yaddau (ُ
? 22 times as the noun du (ء
? four times as the noun daw (ٰ
? six times as the noun dawat (ة
? three times as the active participle d (ع
? four times as the active participle d (ىsee link for the full gist
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dEwsalat on the other hand
The triliteral root d lm ww ( و occurs 99 times in the Quran, in four derived forms?12 times as the form II verb all (ٰ
?83 times as the noun alat (ة
?once as the noun muallan (ى
?three times as the form II active participle mualln (نhttp//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Slw
once we have the two put in their place then their is no issue in seeing that - one can call - Dawata - on God for anything at anytime for God is omnipresent and everywhere,
where salat on the other hand whose purpose is rembrance of God - salata kanat ala-l -muminina kitaban mawqutan - is done at prescribed times - 4103.2441 - Alam tara anna Allaha yusabbihu lahu man fee alssamawati waalardi waalttayru saffatin kullun qad AAalima salatahu watasbeehahu waAllahu AAaleemun bima yafAAaloona
Do not see you that Allah ? Glorify Him whoever (is) in the heavens and the earth and the birds (with) wings outspread? Each one verily knows its prayer and its glorification. And Allah (is) All-Knower of what they do.
In this verse ? you have translated safaat ? as perched together ? but I am more inclined t the usage of word ? wings outspread.
safaat is found in 371 - Waalssaffati saffan-
By those lined (in) rowsand
6719 - Awalam yaraw ila alttayri fawqahum saffatin wayaqbidna ma yumsikuhunna illa alrrahmanu innahu bikulli shayin baseerun
Do not they see the birds above them spreading (their wings) and folding? Not holds them except the Most Gracious. Indeed, He (is) of every thing All-Seer.
It is a hypothesis that is made in my view without any proof ? In no way does the verse imply that when birds are perched together they ARE ACTUALLY IN SALAT/ASSEMBLY OR WHATEVER ELSE.
Human beings and birds are not the same ? because a human being can bow does not mean a bird has to bow. ? this is wrong reasoning by my understanding ? birds have two legs, they fly, they have wings - humans can?t fly and have no wings. The mannerism of a bird and a human is not a just comparison ?
What of the issue of glorification? ? why is there silence on it ? salat and glorification for me goes hand in hand as the purpose of salat is to Glorify God.(rememberance of God).with regards to shuyaib - another theory - which everyone is entitled to ? all I will say is do not take the verse out of context to suit whatever purpose/agenda. ? read from 1184 to 1195 to get a true grasp of the lesson from this revealation.
Sillah - what root arabic is being used - sad or sin? - i cannot find anywhere of its use in the Quran of the word sillah -
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Death (5106) ? this verse just states to detain the witnesses after salat to get them to swear on God that they will be equitable/just ? in no way does it infer as you indicate.
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War (4101-102) - gives guidance re travelling and one fears for his safety ? just states prayer can be shortened ? verse 100 talks about emigrating in the cause of God ? and I guess 101/102 follows in that same thread.
Again I will advocate - do not take the verse out of context ? from 4100 to 4104 - there is the issue of verse 103 which is not addressed ? after prayer ? remembrance of God. -
Treason (9-1-5) ? notably for me 95 talks of the requirements/tennents of God ? Belief( in this case repenting by the mushriks) establish Salat and establish Zakat ? same with the directives from 985
the purpose of salat has been stated as remembrance of God - which involves ruku and sujood.
sujood - sin, jim, dal
The triliteral root sn jm dl ( د occurs 92 times in the Quran, in four derived forms?35 times as the form I verb sajada (َ
?six times as the nominal sujd (د
?28 times as the noun masjid (د
?23 times as the active participle sjid (د
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=sjdrukuh - ra, kaf, ain
The triliteral root r kf ayn ( ع occurs 13 times in the Quran, in two derived forms?five times as the form I verb yarkau (ُ
?eight times as the active participle rki (ع
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rkEall in all interesting read which is amusing - nevertheless - to God belongs all praise and all worship -
to those that want - call an assembly and dont bow or prostrate and discuss affairs amongst yourselves - as long as it is dedicated to God alone - Good for you
to those that want - bow and prostrate - as long as it is dedicated to God alone - Good for you
to those that want - sone assemble, dont bow and prostrate - as long as it is dedicated to God alone - God for you.Each choses which path to follow - we all want to race towards righteousness - God all knowing knows those who are serving him and trying to follow his words.
one last note - our faith/religion/worship is not a new thing - this started with Abraham. Our God is one God - why does it seem to me that we are not bothered with what was before in trying to reconcile our practices/obligations but we are intent on coming up with new found idealogy.
there is nothing new under the sun... look back to pave way for the future - look at the jews and prayer - they always bowed/prostrated - was there any such thing as a assembly for discussion.
we inherited what was given to them - we were not given anyhting new... we were asked to uphold and worship God... -
