Did the word Qur'an exist before the Glorious Qur'an
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A slight digression so I apologize in advance - mods, if you want to fork (branch) this discussion, please do so,
Judging by the terminology used in this thread, I am guessing this discussion may have triggered around some elements in the Text of the Poets (surat-ush-shu'araa)? What I would want to know is why does the mention of poets pop out all of a sudden in the chapter? Any insight would be appreciated by both bro Ayman and sis Samia.
PS to bro Ayman I understand the "decent of the 'devils' upon fabricators" symbolism in comparison to the "revelation", but is the Quran somehow alleging that it is the divine/supernatural counterpart of human poetry? And why would the poets be followed by the deceived... is poetry a bad thing? If it were poetry in those times, was it being composed in the nomadic language (lisaan il-3rab) which is very likely, such as what we know from the hymn of Qaniya. Perhaps folks in the pagan/sabian population may have known it at that time...
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Word AL-Qur'an as A proper noun, that we know today could not have exsisted at that time. Based on Jezm/Sukoon concept this is a phrase meaning
Al="the"
Qur, is next word, not Qura as there is Jezm on Ra= One establish(usually used for one with authority)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000027.pdf
Aan= I
Hence meaning of phrase should "The one I established".
Badar Kanwar MD., FCCP.
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Peace Badar,
Word AL-Qur'an as A proper noun, that we know today could not have exsisted at that time. Based on Jezm/Sukoon concept this is a phrase meaning
Al="the"
Qur, is next word, not Qura as there is Jezm on Ra= One establish(usually used for one with authority)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000027.pdf
Aan= I
Hence meaning of phrase should "The one I established".The form QuR'AN is of the form Fu3LAN, which is a fairly common form in the Arabic language. The Q, R and the Hamza are the strong letters of the root. Its root is not QRR or QUR (I don't even think that such root exists), otherwise it would have been the non-existent words QuRRAN or QaWRAN without a Hamza. It is an intensified noun form like, for example, SuLTAN (intense authority). So the word QuR'AN means intense reading. The Arabic for I is ANA not AAN, although some vernaculars particularly in rural Egypt have it as AANI and it is never attached to another word (exactly like the English "I" is never attached to another word).
1778 and many other passages make it clear that the word "QuR'AN" is a common noun that simply means something like "intense reading/recitation"
017.078
YUSUFALI Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
PICKTHAL Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
SHAKIR Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed.
KHALIFA You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.Out of the above translations, Shakir's is the most accurate. This is why he didn't have to put anything in parentheses. Other translators had to put "recital/recitation" in parentheses because "Quran at dawn" is meaningless nonsense.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Maxq,
A slight digression so I apologize in advance - mods, if you want to fork (branch) this discussion, please do so,
Judging by the terminology used in this thread, I am guessing this discussion may have triggered around some elements in the Text of the Poets (surat-ush-shu'araa)? What I would want to know is why does the mention of poets pop out all of a sudden in the chapter? Any insight would be appreciated by both bro Ayman and sis Samia.
PS to bro Ayman I understand the "decent of the 'devils' upon fabricators" symbolism in comparison to the "revelation", but is the Quran somehow alleging that it is the divine/supernatural counterpart of human poetry? And why would the poets be followed by the deceived... is poetry a bad thing? If it were poetry in those times, was it being composed in the nomadic language (lisaan il-3rab) which is very likely, such as what we know from the hymn of Qaniya. Perhaps folks in the pagan/sabian population may have known it at that time...I think that you need to ask what faculty or part of the human psyche poets use to compose poems? You will find the clear answer there. This has nothing to do with the particular time, language or style that they compose it in.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam,
The word qara is used in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic and means the SAME thing in all languages to call out/recite/proclaim....etc etc.
Yes, the word EXISTED before Muhammad received the "Quran."
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
The word qara is used in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic and means the SAME thing in all languages to call out/recite/proclaim....etc etc.
Yes, the word EXISTED before Muhammad received the "Quran."
Salam,
ArnabNo I asked did the word Qur'an exist not qara. For example did people have their own qur'ans (recitiations) about anything, before the Qur'an? Do you have any Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic books called the Qur'an by title that predate the Qur'an? My understanding is they did but when God's Qur'an came, it became THE Qur'an, the defining recitation.
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No I asked did the word Qur'an exist not qara. For example did people have their own qur'ans (recitiations) about anything, before the Qur'an? Do you have any Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic books called the Qur'an by title that predate the Qur'an? My understanding is they did but when God's Qur'an came, it became THE Qur'an, the defining recitation.
Salam,
The root of the word QURAN is Qaf-Ra-Alif. Which is why I stated what I did.
This is from project Root list http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Qaf-Ra-Alif = to recite/read, compilation, collection, reading, recitation, explanation, study, investigation.
But here is the root Qaf-Ra-Nun (also from PRL) in case you are interested.
Qaf-Ra-Nun = to join one thing with another, couple. qarnin/qarnan - generation, century. qarn (dual qarnani, oblique qaraini, plu. qurun) - horn, trumpet. Often used to symbolise strength/power/glory. qarunun (pl. qurana) - mate, comrade, intimate companion. muqarranin - bound together. muqrinina - capable of subduing. muqtarinin - those formed in serried ranks, accompanying ones.
Dzu al Qarnain (Zulqarnain/dhul-qarnayn) - the two horned one, one belonging to two century, or two generation, master of two states/kingdoms. The surname of Cyrus (Darius 1) the ruler of Media and Persia which were combined into a single kingdom under him.
Qarun (Korah) - he was fabulously rich and stood high in favour of Pharaohs.Both roots mean EXACTLY the same in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic.
Salam,
Arnab -
Cool but I am not asking for the root word, It's been shown several times in this thread. Was the word Qur'an used in literature before THE Qur'an. I asked for examples of Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic books before the Qur'an that were also called the Qur'an. So to be more specific, was the word Qur'an used as a title for a book or any recitation before the Qur'an. Or is the Qur'an the only "book" with such a title?
Peace
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Salaam soof. There is a reason why the root word is being referred to in many replies. Allow me to explain.
Let us take the word "run" and the word "runner" One is a verb the other is a noun. The noun runner is derived from the verb run.
Obviously there were runners before, if people had run previously
Let us take the word "qara" and the word "Quran" One is a verb the other is a noun. The noun Quran is derived from the verb qara.
Obviously there was Quran before, if people had made qara previously.
Let me say this another way, obviously there were recitations before, because people were reciting previously.
If all the seas were ink, the seas would be exhausted, and the word of your Lord would not be complete.
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Peace, unless we realise the proper root of the word based on The Concept of Jezm and Sukoon we will continue to go in circles like this.
There is a Jezm on Ra after Qaf with Dhamma, hence Teshdeed of Ra is not written. Jezm here indicates last letter of the word.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000027.pdf
Hence, QafRaRa becomes QafRa due Jezm meaning "established by someone with authority"
Alif with Medda and Nun with Fetha = "I"
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000148.pdf
See lane above for meaning of Aana = I
Hence meaning one "I established".
Badar Kanwar
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Badar Saahab and Sis Arnab
I do not think you are correct in your respective analyses. With the shaddah (which has magically disappeared right before a hamzah) for the supposed QRR root, or for the root QRN it would again have to contend with the hamzah, since the word reads Qur'aan.I contend that it is leading back to QRY, form which the work Iqra' is derived. Even if you were to take it from an Aramaic perspective (where a religious document would be called Quryaan) the Yaa turns into a glottal stop in Arabic to take into account the Faa-Oyn-Laam form FuOLaan...
This word is non-Classical Arabic IMO, meaning it is from before the time Arabic was standardized, and may very well have been naturalized into the spoken/wild/untamed/NOMADIC language (al-Arabiyyah) through Nabataean A close cousin of Assyrian Aramaic.
Regards,
maxqPeace, unless we realise the proper root of the word based on The Concept of Jezm and Sukoon we will continue to go in circles like this.
There is a Jezm on Ra after Qaf with Dhamma, hence Teshdeed of Ra is not written. Jezm here indicates last letter of the word.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000027.pdf
Hence, QafRaRa becomes QafRa due Jezm meaning "established by someone with authority"
Alif with Medda and Nun with Fetha = "I"
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000148.pdf
See lane above for meaning of Aana = I
Hence meaning one "I established".
Badar Kanwar
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When I have learned Arabic my understanding all along is that the sukoon is not there to signal the end of a word but to signal that there is no short vowel on the letter, which can hapen anywhere in the word.
Also indeed Qura'an is Q-R-hamzaalif, which is in no way the same as merely alif, since hamza represents a consonant sound and the alif is merely supporting it, so the root Q-R-R doesn't seem to be warranted.
Salaam
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Badar Saahab and Sis Arnab
I do not think you are correct in your respective analyses. With the shaddah (which has magically disappeared right before a hamzah) for the supposed QRR root, or for the root QRN it would again have to contend with the hamzah, since the word reads Qur'aan.Salam maxq,
There are no diacritics in the ancient written forms of the Quran that the world has in its possession.
I contend that it is leading back to QRY, form which the work Iqra' is derived. Even if you were to take it from an Aramaic perspective (where a religious document would be called Quryaan) the Yaa turns into a glottal stop in Arabic to take into account the Faa-Oyn-Laam form FuOLaan...
The root of the word is Q-R-A and the root has retained the same meaning through out the Semitic languages.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam maxq,
There are no diacritics in the ancient written forms of the Quran that the world has in its possession.
Salam sis,
It has been a while since we've discussed on the forum.
I agree with you here, however there must have been some way of pronouncing words the way they were.The root of the word is Q-R-A and the root has retained the same meaning through out the Semitic languages.
Salam,
ArnabYes, I agree. No argument there. QRY/QRA is the same root from what I understand, hence I gave the example form of Quryaan from Aramaic. My argument was with regards to the grammatical operator which from a Classical (late Umayyad to para-Abbasid period) POV makes the word confusing, all the more reason to believe that this word is actually directly derived and imported from a liturgical language into a spoken language (much like many words from Arabic, Persian and Turkish were imported into Urdu that started as a spoken language 400-500 hundred years ago - since pre-Islamic Arabic was a semitic language, its was able to relate to the roots, whereas Urdu does not do this naturally since it is Indo-Iranian)...
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Maxq and Arnab, reason Hemza on Alif in
is changed to Medda is under poetic license. It is called changing Hezet el-Kata into a Hamzet el- wasl. Please see discussion from E.H Plamer's Arabic Grammar. Point being, in word there is a syllable/morpheme and Jezm indicating last letter followed by
http//books.google.com/books?id=gdHjvHF-E2kC&pg=PA377&dq=arabic+grammar+by+Edward+H+palmer#PPA376,M1Badar
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Quran did not create or added to the already exisitng Arabic language. It is says "Quran in your language, O Muhammad". Arabic is the language of the Messenger.
Quran certainly coined certain terms to explain the scientific facts taking recourse to the Roots and the perceptions infolded in those Roots. For vocal cord, Quran used "Hablil Warid" the perception infolded in the Roots of these two words was the most precise to explain the vocal cord. Similarly it uses "Alrehae lewaqeh" it was most precise and open/naked to describe the phenomenon carried out by these winds.
I appreciate the vastness of the Arabic at that point of time from the word which they employed to refer to paper. The concept infolded in this Root apparently does not seem to transcribe paper; but the method adopted for last 2500 years for the manufacture of paper; and shall remain so; exactly corresponds to the concept of the Root.
This shows Arabs not only used paper but even knew its technology of manufacturing though they did not manufacture themselves. -
Assalaam Alaikum...
Quran existed PRIOR to Humans development.....as spiritual revelation
? (Allah) Most Gracious!
? It is He who has taught AL-QURAN.
? He has created man.
? He taught him the intelligent and distinct speech.Jinn the hidden/spiritual aspect of our development and construction was created initally PRIOR to our physical construct....
Say. It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!