A very humble call/request for help with Qur'nic interperatation

bkanwar2

Dear friends, I am new to this forum. I am a very basic learner of the AlQur'an. I am bringing forwards my questions and some understanding from another forum to learn more.

I have just found out that Gezm/Sukoon use in Qur'an implies the separation of words from each other. This grammatical fact could have huge implications for understanding Qur'an. Would like more knowledgeable to comment please.

Badar Kanwar

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bkanwar2

Joined 24 Jan 2007
Posts 27
Location Iowa

PostPosted Fri Jul 11, 2008 940 am Post subject Reply with quote
Just a correction. It appears from the post that Gezm and Sukoon are one and same. However, to my understanding they are not. Gezm is used to indicated declinable words attached to other words. However, a Sukoon is to indicates a Non Mutherick consonant in a non-declinable word. Still waiting for some comments, further elaborations on the issue. Thanks.

Badar Kanwar
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UmeAimon

Joined 28 Jan 2007
Posts 107
Location UAE

PostPosted Fri Jul 11, 2008 1237 pm Post subject Reply with quote
Salam brother,

For what I had learned during my recitation lessons in my childhood and what my children's' teacher taught my kids, the difference between gezm and sakoon is that gezm is the "mark" and letter on which it is on is called sakin. So it's the same, we have to stop/sakoon at the letter on which there is Gezm in order not to attach it to the next letter in the same word and is for pronunciation only. So sakoon on a letter represent that when pronouncing the word letter is attached to the preceding letter not to the next one in the same word.

Like in the word Ikhlaaq, sakoon also called gezm sometimes is on letter "kha" and "qaf" means while pronouncing we have to to say ikh, ie stop at kha and not attach it with next letter "la". So the word is pronounced ikh-laaq while sounding not ikh-khal-laaq like in tashdeed.

Similarly if it's on the letter that is at the end of the word then that end letter won't be attached to the next word's letter and is of course a separate word! Thats all in my humble knowledge.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable in Arabic grammar can help.

UmeAimon
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bkanwar2

Joined 24 Jan 2007
Posts 27
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PostPosted Mon Jul 14, 2008 955 am Post subject Reply with quote
Very Respected Sister, thanks for the reply. What you are saying is common prevailing wisdom. However, this has to do a lot with Muslim mentality of Qur?an just a book for recitation and otherwise too complicated to understand and hence of no use for guidance. This mind frame has led us to be in condition of being "Mahajoor" with it.

Here is relevant discussion from Lane's about this issue.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000057.pdf

It appears that a Gezm is indicative of last letter of a declinable word attached to another word. The declinable words from English are

Articles. declinable word, companion to the substantive; there are distinct and indistinct articles.
Pronouns. declinable word, companion or substitute of a substantive
Adjectives. declinable and comparisable word signifying a quality or a feature, used as an attribute or a complement.

Whereas Sukoon is to indicated quiescent letter in an indeclinable word. However, I am still searching the significance of Sakoon in an indeclinable word.

Furthermore, an interesting question is if the declinable words of classic Arabic match with above English ones or not?

William Wright also concurs with this interpretation in his Grammar Book.

Hence for example Word ALQur?an is a combination of Al, Qur and Aan. Hence, not a proper noun as we know today but should be Al=the, Kur= established and Aan=I.
?THE ONE I ESTABLISHED" (usually used for one with authority).

Would still like comments as it is a relatively new area.

Badar Kanwar
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bkanwar2

Joined 24 Jan 2007
Posts 27
Location Iowa

PostPosted Wed Jul 16, 2008 229 pm Post subject Reply with quote
While still waiting for further enlightenment. I would like to share this. A sukoon in an indeclinable word implies that first couple of letters in a word carry the actual meanings. Let me further elaborate by some examples.

Let us take an example of word Jezm itself. In this word there is a Sukoon after Jiim on Zal and Miim is seperate. Hence the basic unit of this word that conveys meaning i.e., morpheme is Jez. It can not be broken further. Please see meaning of Jez from Lane's Lexicon, "he cuts"

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000052.pdf

A similar example/concept, but not exactly the same in English. A basic word "at" can become cat by adding "c" at beginning, bat by adding "b" , pat by adding "p" and so on.

Badar Kanwar

Layth

Peace and welcome,

Arabic words do not get cut off by gazm or sukoon! The words are written in the equivalent of cursive in English, that is how you know a word ends (it is disconnected from the word after it).

The tashkeel or dialectal marks are merely to help in making the correct pronounciation - I would not dwell too much on that part of the language.

Samia

This is a quick definition of the difference (and relation) between sukoon and gezm. I hope I am not confusing you further!!

The "tashkeel" is the diatrical signs which either work as short vowels in the word or as a grammatical sign generally at the end of the word. One of these "tashkeel" sign is the "sukoon", indicating absence of a short vowel after a letter, such as in "maktab " sukoon will be above the letter "kaaf".

"Gezm" is a grammatical function and has different signs, one of which is the sukoon. It affects verbs, pronouns and prepositions. In the case of pronouns and prepositions, some of them are permanently in gezm, such as (3ann ), some are permanently in "fat7", such as (thumma ) and some are permanently in raf3 (such as na7nu ) and some are permanently in "jarr" such as fii .

Signs of Gezm for verbs are either sukoon or elimination of a letter.
Example lam yaktub (the sign of jezm is a sukoon above the last letter which is the baa)
lam yaktubuu (the sign of jezm is the elimination of the nuun in and replacing it with an alif)
lam yajri and lam yanam (the sign of jezm is the elimination of the final yaa of the verb (yajrii &#1610 and (yanaam )and replacing it with a short vowel of its nature i, a (kasra and fat7a)

bkanwar2

Thanks Samia, little confusing. Could you please elaborate further if possible. Also a reference would be greatly appreciated.

Badar Kanwar

bkanwar2

Dear friends, I am new to this forum. I am a very basic learner of the AlQur'an. I am bringing forwards my questions and some understanding from another forum to learn more.

I have just found out that Gezm/Sukoon use in Qur'an implies the separation of words from each other. This grammatical fact could have huge implications for understanding Qur'an. Would like more knowledgeable to comment please.

Badar Kanwar

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View user's profile Send private message
bkanwar2

Joined 24 Jan 2007
Posts 27
Location Iowa

PostPosted Fri Jul 11, 2008 940 am Post subject Reply with quote
Just a correction. It appears from the post that Gezm and Sukoon are one and same. However, to my understanding they are not. Gezm is used to indicated declinable words attached to other words. However, a Sukoon is to indicates a Non Mutherick consonant in a non-declinable word. Still waiting for some comments, further elaborations on the issue. Thanks.

Badar Kanwar
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UmeAimon

Joined 28 Jan 2007
Posts 107
Location UAE

PostPosted Fri Jul 11, 2008 1237 pm Post subject Reply with quote
Salam brother,

For what I had learned during my recitation lessons in my childhood and what my children's' teacher taught my kids, the difference between gezm and sakoon is that gezm is the "mark" and letter on which it is on is called sakin. So it's the same, we have to stop/sakoon at the letter on which there is Gezm in order not to attach it to the next letter in the same word and is for pronunciation only. So sakoon on a letter represent that when pronouncing the word letter is attached to the preceding letter not to the next one in the same word.

Like in the word Ikhlaaq, sakoon also called gezm sometimes is on letter "kha" and "qaf" means while pronouncing we have to to say ikh, ie stop at kha and not attach it with next letter "la". So the word is pronounced ikh-laaq while sounding not ikh-khal-laaq like in tashdeed.

Similarly if it's on the letter that is at the end of the word then that end letter won't be attached to the next word's letter and is of course a separate word! Thats all in my humble knowledge.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable in Arabic grammar can help.

UmeAimon
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bkanwar2

Joined 24 Jan 2007
Posts 27
Location Iowa

PostPosted Mon Jul 14, 2008 955 am Post subject Reply with quote
Very Respected Sister, thanks for the reply. What you are saying is common prevailing wisdom. However, this has to do a lot with Muslim mentality of Qur?an just a book for recitation and otherwise too complicated to understand and hence of no use for guidance. This mind frame has led us to be in condition of being "Mahajoor" with it.

Here is relevant discussion from Lane's about this issue.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000057.pdf

It appears that a Gezm is indicative of last letter of a declinable word attached to another word. The declinable words from English are

Articles. declinable word, companion to the substantive; there are distinct and indistinct articles.
Pronouns. declinable word, companion or substitute of a substantive
Adjectives. declinable and comparisable word signifying a quality or a feature, used as an attribute or a complement.

Whereas Sukoon is to indicated quiescent letter in an indeclinable word. However, I am still searching the significance of Sakoon in an indeclinable word.

Furthermore, an interesting question is if the declinable words of classic Arabic match with above English ones or not?

William Wright also concurs with this interpretation in his Grammar Book.

Hence for example Word ALQur?an is a combination of Al, Qur and Aan. Hence, not a proper noun as we know today but should be Al=the, Kur= established and Aan=I.
?THE ONE I ESTABLISHED" (usually used for one with authority).

Would still like comments as it is a relatively new area.

Badar Kanwar
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bkanwar2

Joined 24 Jan 2007
Posts 27
Location Iowa

PostPosted Wed Jul 16, 2008 229 pm Post subject Reply with quote
While still waiting for further enlightenment. I would like to share this. A sukoon in an indeclinable word implies that first couple of letters in a word carry the actual meanings. Let me further elaborate by some examples.

Let us take an example of word Jezm itself. In this word there is a Sukoon after Jiim on Zal and Miim is seperate. Hence the basic unit of this word that conveys meaning i.e., morpheme is Jez. It can not be broken further. Please see meaning of Jez from Lane's Lexicon, "he cuts"

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000052.pdf

A similar example/concept, but not exactly the same in English. A basic word "at" can become cat by adding "c" at beginning, bat by adding "b" , pat by adding "p" and so on.

Badar Kanwar

bkanwar2

Samia, while waiting for you response, here is what I have learned from your post. I thank you very much for that. Please correct me, if I am wrong. You could delete above post which appears as a qoute, it was by mistake. I do not see any option to delete my post.

"Taskeel" as a term is applied for Aarabs, applying vowels to letters, hence not relavent to the discussion. Although a discussion by itself. Please read relavent page from Lane under "Shakala alkitab"

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000310.pdf

Whereas diacritical points/signs are called I,Jam. These are dots like on ta, saa etc. Please see Lane below again. Please see middle grid at close to bottom for discussion

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000251.pdf

Both of these do not deal with Gezm and Sukoon. For them please further see below, in addition to Lane above, from William Wright's Grammar book.

http//www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol1.pdf

Any comments, referances will be appreciated in this respect. Thanks.

Badar Kanwar

Samia

Sorry for the late reply.

What I see in Lane's is that tashkeel means i3jaam adding diacritical points. But since "diacritical" means distinguishing/make distinctive, I do no see why diacritical signs cannot be used for vocalization and diacritical points for adding dotts.

Anyway, just replace vocalization for "tashkeel", although tashkeel is not used for dotting a letter, "i3jaam" is, which roughly means to clarify.

"Taskeel" as a term is applied for Aarabs, applying vowels to letters, hence not relavent to the discussion.

Your question is about "sukoon" and "jezm", one of which is a sign of tashkeel /vocalization "the sukoon" and the other is a grammatical state which may lead to the sukoon, one of the signs of jezm "the jezm". How is this not relevant to the discussion?

As for references, I cannot give you a reference all in Arabic, and I do not use references for Arabic grammar in English. But you can surely find many books explaining Arabic grammar in English. I recommend that you look for one for native speaking children, which explains this very clearly (because it is a basic knowledge for native speakers). Books for adults are hardly designed for the non native speaker, and can be a bit complicated, or taking unknown points for guaranted.

bkanwar2

Thanks Samia for belated answer and furthering the discussion. I would like to request that please read the concept of Jezm from Lane specially in right grid at bottom where he is describing jezmata. I have read it several times and may still need to read few time more.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000057.pdf

Why it is important? Here is a brief example as to what it does to meanings of Al Qur'an

The word Bismi Allahi

Almost all translators assumes the root word for "Bismi" is "ASM" with preposition "Bi" attached to it. If a Jezm indicates last letter of a declinable word as Lane is indicating. The break down of "Bismi Allahi " should be as follows,

Bi= a preposition, could have several meaning depending upon usage, here would mean "a"

ASS= with a teshdeed, and "A" is a of wasela, hence could be missing from writting= meaning, a foundation for man/mankind, please see Lane

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000093.pdf

Mi= Min, and will join with Allah i.e., Min Allahi.

Hence, meaning of the part of verse should be " A foundation (A heart, Arabs believed that is the first part that come into exsistence in womb) for men/mankind from Allaha".

Would like your comments please.

Badar Kanwar

Samia

This is against the universal grammar ruling both spoken and written Arabic prepositions are not suffixed to nouns; they may only be prefixed. Thus mi (even if such a preposition exists) cannot be suffixed to the ASS.

What law makes "min" "mi"? Is there any (other) occurence of this "mi" in the qur'aan?

bkanwar2

Samia, first of all Grammar rules were developed much later to understand Al Qur'an, when linguistic chaos was already taking place.

Furthermore, where did I imply that it is suffixed to a noun. It is not. It is a prefix to a noun i.e., Allahi. It is we who have some how assumed that Arabic is cursive in script exacltly like English as Layth suggested above. It is only cursive partly in script. However, words can be written in cursive joined together, but seperations are indicated by marks of "jezm and "sukoon". Hope this helps.

Badar Kanwar

bkanwar2

What law makes "min" "mi"? Is there any (other) occurence of this "mi" in the qur'aan?

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore this question. The law for shortening the Min to Mi is from Arabic poetry, same as ala can be a. Examples are mil-ibili "from the camels", and al-mai mening "on the water (RefA GRAMMAR OF CLASSICAL ARABIC by Wolfdietrich Fischer 3rd edition page 152). Furthermore, here is the referance from Lane.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000270.pdf

Does it occur in Qur'an? most likely. But you have a task cut out for me for several days. Thanks for it, this is how learning is enhanced and thats what we as believers, should be doing. Al-Furqan will be the ultimate criteria.

Badar Kanwar

Samia

Samia, first of all Grammar rules were developed much later to understand Al Qur'an, when linguistic chaos was already taking place.

I was speaking of universal grammar that rules the sentence construction, not the grammar.

Furthermore, where did I imply that it is suffixed to a noun. It is not. It is a prefix to a noun i.e., Allahi. It is we who have some how assumed that Arabic is cursive in script exacltly like English as Layth suggested above. It is only cursive partly in script. However, words can be written in cursive joined together, but seperations are indicated by marks of "jezm and "sukoon". Hope this helps.

Badar Kanwar

I wish you could write your senetnce in Arabic. Is this what you mean ?

What law makes "min" "mi"? Is there any (other) occurence of this "mi" in the qur'aan?

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore this question. The law for shortening the Min to Mi is from Arabic poetry, same as ala can be a. Examples are mil-ibili "from the camels", and al-mai mening "on the water (RefA GRAMMAR OF CLASSICAL ARABIC by Wolfdietrich Fischer 3rd edition page 152). Furthermore, here is the referance from Lane.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000270.pdf

I know of something like "mil__ for min al__" in the Cairo dialect only.
But what I understood from Lane is that he was talking about "min" following another preposition such as another min, ila, 3an, etc..; as in mimma; ilaama; 3amma... all used as interrogation articles. As for "rubba rubbama", this is not an interrogation article. These have occurences in the qur'aan, but not mi

. for the interrogative ; immediately following
a prep.

So, in Arabic, here are the two connected preposition, ending with for

bkanwar2

I was speaking of universal grammar that rules the sentence construction, not the grammar.

Thanks Samia for this clearification.

I wish you could write your senetnce in Arabic. Is this what you mean ?

No, what I am understanding using the concept of sign "jezm", indicating the final letter of a word is as follows that a portion of written script could have more than one word combined together. However, this sign demarks word seperation. Hence not should only be read seperatly, but as well be understood seperatly as regards meaning. This would obviously lead to diffrent roots.

BiAss Mi Allhai or once "Mi" is seperated from BiAss it should be written as BiAss Min Allahi. It is only issue of Morphology or Al Surf, of written scripture. I have not seen lot of work from Arabs on this issue, have you. Please share.

How are you able to type in Arabic? Please teach me.

Also Lane has referances for the concept of Jezm from Arabic lexicons. If you have access to those could you please, confirm or refute his understanding with referances. Thanks

Just to continue verse's understanding further

becomes

Ar reh Mani= "Ar="The" , Reh "ample and easy state of life that man can not think by himself (see Lane)

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000216.pdf

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000217.pdf

MAani= from one who undertakes your sustinance and maintenance.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000270.pdf

Badar Kanwar MD., FCCP

bkanwar2

Hence so far verse

Becomes like this

"a" " A foundation (A heart, Arabs believed that is the first part that come into exsistence in womb) for man/mankind from Allaha" for "The" "ample and easy state of life that man can not think by himself" "from one who undertakes your sustinance and maintenance".

unknownuser

Peace bkanwar2,

http//www.indiana.edu/~arabic/typing_arabic.htm

Type a word, and then copy-paste..

bkanwar2

Thanks, a million.

Badar Kanwar

bkanwar2

Samia, while waiting for your help about the issues indicated in the previous post. Let me continue to share my understanding that stems from concept of Jezm/sukoon

Ar=Al "the" Rahimi= "Mercy"= The mercy
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000221.pdf

Al= "the" Ham= "the decree"

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000271.pdf

Du= "in the land"

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000094.pdf

Li= "on account of" Allahi

so this part of verse should read as " The decree for the land on account of Allah"

Badar Kanwar MD., FCCP

Samia

Salaam Badr

I see RHamsa took care of the typing issue, thanks to him.
Now, would it be too much if I ask you to type the Arabic portions in Arabic? That makes it easier for me to understand what you mean.
But before that, would you please tell me about this concept of "jezm & sukoon" and where you read about it?

bkanwar2

Samia, sorry for the late response. Do you have any specific questions about concept of Sukoon and Jezm, that I can try to elaborate further. I have posted with referances right from the start of this thread. I realise this is a totally new understanding it needs further confirmation and research, that involves referance that are old and in Arabic. Do you feel any intrest to be a part of this. I understand that your native language is Arabic, as well you have implied that you may have access to some of the Arabic books i.e., old grammar and lexicon.

Badar Kanwar

bkanwar2

I just want to bring this topic to forefront again. It is important as it has huge implication regarding Qur?anic understanding. I know that lot of contributors on this forum are doing very important work. One such work being assigning roots to the Qur?anic words. This concept of Jezm and Sukoon is very important in this respect.

Let us elaborate this with an example.
In translation of Sura Fatiha, the word

Almost everyone says, it's root to be . However, I could not find a word like this in Lane under this root; nor could I find a grammatical explanation of any inflections. Although, if we separate it into two based on understanding of Jezm and Sukoon It becomes and . Now it becomes very easy and clear. IS PRESENT UNDER ROOT and UNDER

Badar