The 5 stages of a Muslim turning Quran Aloner
-
peace Soof,
NB I use the term "Quran Alone" and "Quran Aloner" only to act as a reference, not as an endorsement of the term.
peace Ramzi,
I am sure there will be flexibility with "salat" according to The Quran, within limits. And my statement probably got deleted with the forum server move hence you couldn't find it but it is unlikely I would have described islam as a religion, and it is not "fear" of flexibility, it is not appreciating flexibility, i.e. not seeing the wisdom in it......... but you got the gist of my statement right.
-
Peace "ramzi",
As i told you the "salat" issue has also confused me in the beginning. I dont think either that it is a very big problem if you think that GOD preserved the salat via Abraham and the ppl in the "masjidul haram" in mecca know how these are performed, hence youlook at them and copy that. RK was also still stuck with that view. HOWEVER you must not stop thinking. Thats the important thing. DO NOT INSIST that this is the right method and look at the evidence on the other side. Qs why when you look at the root meaning of mecca the meanings would be "destruction" and similar and not the name of a city. Qs whether there was a city named mecca before the rev of the Quran. Qs also the same for the term "kaaba" and "masjidul haram". Only then will we all ultimately find the truth. GOD Bless! -
Salam,
No I cannot provide evidence from The Quran, as I never took it from The Quran.
Then why do you use the words
MuslimandQuran alonein your opening statement?Shouldn`t your post more accurately be
The different stages Wakas thinks are signs of enlightement
Because, taking for example you point # 5, we can clearly see from the Quran the total opposite as a person who rejects/denys the existence of any tenents of faith (God, angels, scriptures, messengers, and J-day) has gone astray - 4136
-
peace,
Then why do you use the words
MuslimandQuran alonein your opening statement?When I use "Muslim" with a capital I mainly use it to reference what is commonly known as a "Muslim". Secondly, see the following
NB I use the term "Quran Alone" and "Quran Aloner" only to act as a reference, not as an endorsement of the term.
Shouldn`t your post more accurately be
The different stages Wakas thinks are signs of enlightement
No, because this would be inaccurate. As stated in my original post, it is not my list but it is one I consider good enough to post as "food for thought".
Because, taking for example you point # 5, we can clearly see from the Quran the total opposite as a person who rejects/denys the existence of any tenents of faith (God, angels, scriptures, messengers, and J-day) has gone astray - 4136
Stage 5 does not say anything about rejecting God etc. This is your own strawman argument.
I prefer to discuss what is actually said.
-
Dear Wakas,
Stage 5 does not say anything about rejecting God etc. This is your own strawman argument.
I prefer to discuss what is actually said.
There is no strawman argument here. Let us discusus what you actually said
Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level
- Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).
Now, the Quran tells us that people who deny the messengers have gone astray.
Therefore, there is a clear contradiction between what you suggest are
signs of enlightenmentand what the Quran describes asgoing astray. -
- Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
- Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
- Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
- Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
- Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).
These are roughly the stages I went through, with a slight difference in stage 1 and stage 5.
I would say I had a pre stage 1 from a very young age questioning customs and traditions (not hadith). Later, when I started questioning hadith itself, I found in it the basis for those customs and traditions. In beteen was the stage 1.Stage 5 I do not question the existence of historical personalities such as nabi and rasool, simply because the quraan tells us about them. However, I do not think that this is what meant by "believing in His messengers" but "believing in His MESSAGES". The word "rasool" also means message. Moreover, God says that He did not tell us about all the messenger, and at the same time we are not supposed to differentiate between the messengers. How can I believe "equally" in the existence of messengers I was not told about?
-
Regarding the Prophets I think we are being to I-centric. The messengers are all the same even if we do not see them. They know, God knows, we... what does it matter... we may be also know there are all the same, because the are one, all the messengers are one, because one is the message, and the messenger knows that the message is one, and therefore doesn't see Himself as apart from this unit of messengership, add to that they are humble, so the problem, if there is one, is there is a not in them but in us.
Precisely, because they are one, it doesn't matter if we speak about 3isa or Abraham or any unknown (to us) messenger, through any one we think we are acknowledging all of them. They are not distinguishable, which is why we may not know of many -and there must have been very many if they were sent to all peoples and to the jinns- and that is also why we do not need to know too many particulars about any (which foot the shoed first, or things like that), if it is not to highlight some part of the message.
Salaam
-
peace Layth,
Now, the Quran tells us that people who deny the messengers have gone astray.
I dont think it is possible that one can deny the messenger AND accept the message, thus it is likely you have misunderstood what stage 5 means. It is not my list so I cant be certain what it means either.
Therefore, there is a clear contradiction between what you suggest are
signs of enlightenmentand what the Quran describes asgoing astray.What I suggest? I suggest re-reading my posts.
-
Dear Wakas,
There is no strawman argument here. Let us discusus what you actually said
Now, the Quran tells us that people who deny the messengers have gone astray.
Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level
- Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).
Questioning doesn't automatically means denying.
Rejection can come after questioning, but not all the time. -
Peace Katara,
Questioning doesn't automatically means denying.
Rejection can come after questioning, but not all the time.I agree with your comment. But my problem with this list was not the questioning aspect, but questioning the Quran`a authenticity on the subject which is what is being implied from point # 5
- Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
- Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
- Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
- Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
- Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).
You see, if you already have questioned/rejected the hadiths as per point # 2, then the only source left for you to draw information from is th Quran. Therefore, if, by point # 5 you are questioning the existence of the prohets/messengers, that means you are doing so based on what has been written in the Quran - which is questiong/doubting God`s rendition of these accounts.
It may be I am misunderstanding the meaning of point # 5, however, no alternative understanding has been provided.
It is not my list so I cant be certain what it means either.
-
peace Layth, all,
I would think it means something along the lines of the messengers being beyond our concern, i.e. scope of verification, i.e. we cant verify them we can only verify the message. It is probably related to the previous stage of de-emphasising historical places and stage 5 is de-emphasising historical personalities.
I cannot be sure.
When I originally recalled the list, I thought stage 5 was "demeccafication".
-
Ha ha. Funny list, but a little inaccurate, I think. 1 and 2 are false for me, and as for 5, I never took much interest in them beyond the descriptions of what they did e.g. Partin seas(Moses), dreamin (Joseph). I don't think no.5 can actually be called the highest stage.
Peace
Sarah -
I would say the highest stage of the process ("muslim" turning "Quran Alone" is pondering the existence of Allah, that is, questioning the main point of Quran's message (e.i.,fear and obey God).... and then submission to Allah by believing in the quran...
Just some food for thought
...Those items in the list, rather than being ordered in stages, those items might be connected to one another in a circle. A person could reach "Quran Alone" by starting at any point/item. -
peace all,
Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level
- Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
- Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
- Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
- Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
- Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).
I disagree with your list brother Wakas. Any person can create such a list and put his current position as the highest level.
Any person who reaches at your 5th level has just moved from one extreme, that is, from gullibility in believing every story to another extreme, that is, gullibility of denying the existence of facts.
Besides, the list could be an accurate depiction of the path of some people, but I think it is an exaggeration. I have come to know thousands of the so-called Quran aloners and those who reach the 4th station are a minority, though a loud one. As for the 5th station, I have seen only a few who have lost their compass together with their common sense.
Your 5th station, which is disorienting, might lead to the 6th station, which is one below the highest questioning the existence of French-speaking purple frogs. As for the highest 7th level ask the jedi jedi
Peace,
Edip -
Your 5th station, which is disorienting, might lead to the 6th station, which is one below the highest questioning the existence of French-speaking purple frogs. As for the highest 7th level ask the jedi jedi
D amused
That could be a possibility,too... more so for extreme philosophers who entered insanity-reality. hehe.
-
Interesting post with highly revealing responses although predictable.
The list is an accurate observation although I would add 6. Questioning the Quran.
This may manifest itself (but not limited to) in the following ways.
a. Getting fed up and leaving the Quran/God
b. Changing meaning of words to create suitable answers.
c. Metaphoric/Literal interpretations.It would be good to grow Wakas' list, I think there are several branches from each step that take us to different destinations.
Whatever stage you are at, if you are still alive, the test isn't over so keep thinking.
-
I call myself Koranist, cause thats what I am. Islam means different things to different people. Everyone can know what is a Koranist since there is only one Koran. My stages I went through is complicated because when I was younger I was religious and influenced by the Salafi brand of Islam as this was what was preached in the mosque I attended in Florida. Then I stopped being religious for almost 8 years till 9-11 when i started talking with non Muslims in forums. This introduced me to the net world where I met Sheikh Google, the grand mufti of the net. peace
I then started reading about wahhabism. Then I started studying Sunni Islam, then sufi Islam then I came across the website of Herbert Berg where he discussed hadith criticism. The article about Goldziher and Schacht opened up my eyes to new information. I then spent almost 6 months in hadith debates. Then I came to this website. I would also visit Sunni forums where in the end I realized their brand of Islam is something I no longer want to be a part of. I do not consider myself following the same religion and if they chose to call themselves Muslims than they can have that name. I ain't them. This journey started from 9-11 to about one year ago when I started trusting the Koran and realized it covered my back in any debates I had, even with atheist.
So definently the net played a very important role.
-
Edip your avatar is the funniest thing I have ever seen. Thank you.
Yes, it is an avatar made by a Turkish artist. She made many more, but I liked this one the most for the following reason it is a ladybug which is also called luckybug by some. It is a living divine sign delivering a numero-literal sign, which bugs the unappreciative. It puts a smile on gardeners' face as volunteer pest control worker. But, I may soon retire it and replace it with a lion.
Glad to hear that you think that you haven't lost your "sense of common sense," but unfortunately, all who lose it never doubt of their possession of it. (I confess that I have lost a portion of it .
Peace,
Edip -
The problem I have is the concept of submission. I can see in the Koran Aloner the hard work to shrug off so many beliefs and try to reconcile the Islamic faith with your morality/rationality. But lingering there is always the thought of submission, that silent whisper, "Stop fighting. Just give up. Submit or die."
My vote is that we wrestle with God and see who wins. I think it is what God wants. He wants us to struggle with him and force ourselves to get to know him and admit we are bested. There is nothing wrong with this approach and it can in fact encourage the love and respect we seek and God deserves.
As a metaphor look at the world of Tennis and Roger Federer. Many of his opponents recognise his greatness in defeat. After having exerted all their strength against Roger and being bested with apparent ease they are often truly gracious in defeat.
When we submit I fear that we never really get to know how great God is and we never really grow ourselves because we never test and push ourselves.
