The 5 stages of a Muslim turning Quran Aloner

Wakas

peace all,

NB I use the term "Quran Alone" and "Quran Aloner" only to act as a reference, not as an endorsement of the term.

A former member (mq) used to discuss different stages of growth/thinking of a Muslim turning to the "Quran Alone" mindset. I do not agree with it in terms of such a defined manner but it is definitely food for thought and often observed, based on my experience.

Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level

Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

You may recognise some of the stages in yourself.

marleya

Peace to you too Wakas.

I recognize your list.And the steps was scary sometimes.To look behind my vail,and start to realize that the message,has been distorted,out of various reasons.But definitly,I have more peace,after walking this steps.And learned a great deal,and really got to know my Lord,so that I can worship Him.
Thanks.

Soof

Peace

Fortunately for me I never came into contact with Hadith, I went straight to the source, So I did not inherit the culture, historical influence of the Stories when investigating devotion to God alone.

Alen

Peace,
With all due Respect,

I also never believed in tzhe hadeeth lies. I mean, i always found something shady regarding them, they always contradicted The Quran and what always bothered me is the fact that prophet Muhammad portrayed in the hadeeth books is soooo different then the prophet Muhammad protrayed in The Quran.

Glory be to our God, The MOST Merciful.
Peace. jedi

Katara

There are definitely many routes to "Quran Only".. (cuz i didn't went through those stages...) but surely all routes make us at some point of time &, and require us to hmm and hail ?

I wonder what will i do if i encounter these three hadiths

Bukhari, Book 41, Number 7147
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri

Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should efface that and narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me - and Hammam said I think he also said "deliberately" - he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.

Book 25, Number 3640

Narrated Zayd ibn Thabit
Al-Muttalib ibn Abdullah ibn Hantab said Zayd ibn Thabit entered upon Mu'awiyah and asked him about a tradition. He ordered a man to write it. Zayd said The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) ordered us not to write any of his traditions. So he erased it.

Muslim Book 007, Number 3163

Ibrahim al-Taimi reported on the authority of his father 'Ali b. Abi Talib (Allah be pleased with him) addressed us and said He who thought that we have besides the Holy Qur'an anything else that we recite, he told a lie. And this document which is hanging by the sheath of the sword contains but the ages of the camels, and the nature of the wounds.

phoenix1

That is actually a good sketch of what I went through. But in my case there were 3 more steps.

Questioning God (not the existence but the type)
Questioning the Quran.
Questioning the very existence of God.

Layth

Peace,

Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level

Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

Can you please provide evidence form the Quran for your list?

Wakas

Peace,

Can you please provide evidence form the Quran for your list?

No I cannot provide evidence from The Quran, as I never took it from The Quran.

Such evidence would not be explicit in The Quran anyway as it would not talk about the made-up religion to come in the future (i.e. Traditional Islam) then discuss the problems/thoughts/discoveries/mindset related to returning to the original form. Not in a direct manner at least.

AlFajr

Peace all,
Is the underlying assumption that stage 5 being the highest is also the "best"?

Wakas

peace al,

The way of the numbering system is that stage 5 would be considered the highest/best. That is not to say the position of stage 5 is correct, it simply implies a higher level of discovery/penetration into "Quran Alone" thinking/growth, as observed by the list maker.

Soof

peace al,

The way of the numbering system is that stage 5 would be considered the highest/best. That is not to say the position of stage 5 is correct, it simply implies a higher level of discovery/penetration into "Quran Alone" thinking/growth, as observed by the list maker.

Peace Wakas

Isn't it incorrect to refer to it as discovery into Qur'an Alone. It should be the return to Islam. Islam's source is the Qur'an, so any other source is not the practice of true Islam. When a title like "Qur'an Alone" appears it generates a sect mentality, rejoicing in one's own knowledge. Saying I'm a Qur'an Aloner is no better than saying I'm a Sunni, I'm a Sufi, I'm a Shi'a. Everyone needs to unite as God says and say "I am devoted to God alone" that is the true title and meaning of Muslim. Isms and titles need to be removed in religion, we need to recognise that everyones understanding will vary regardless of the Scripture but what will stay the same is the devotion to the Supreme being.

Say, 'People of the Book, let us arrive at a statement that is common to us all we worship God alone, we ascribe no partner to Him, and none of us takes others beside God as lords.' If they turn away, say, 'Witness our devotion to Him.'
364

I'm not saying you are incorrect in you're post, that's just my two cents on the Qur'an Alone title. A more fitting topic title would be 5 Stages of a Sectarian turning to a Muslim.

Peace

ramzi

Salam Wakas,

Yet another post of yours that made me smile!

The different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery you described are exactly the journey I have been on/through these last few months.

If you recall from my introduction/my story, it was my questioning of shariah, and woman's rights with regard to marriage (4 wives), divorce (my mum), and hijab. That was my first step that made me 'wake up'.

Then came the rollercoaster of hadith. Having been taught Hadith for 12 years, it was shocking to hear, yet awakening with a sense of satisfaction of discovery!

Now these past few days, it has been of the rituals, (mainly salat). I am very confused atm, as I see light down both tunnels and I can convince myself to follow 2 paths atm with regards to salat. I still pray the way I used to, growing up. Some people on this forum call it the 'sunni' way. I prefer to call it the way our muslim brothers pray in Masjid Al-Haraam in Mekka.

I see the sense in your article. http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htm
And in the article http//members.aol.com/Mamalek2/qbook11.htm

I do not agree however with the view that the current method of Salat as observed at Masjid Al-Haraam is meaningless practices and prostrations., as mentioned by a few people on the forum (If I remember correctly).

The act of Rukoo3 and Sujood (bowing and prostration) reminds a muslim that he/she is mortal and that God is geat. Reminds him/her to fear God, reminds him/her that God knows everything, reminds him/her of the fear he/she once felt when thinking of Judgement Day and Hell. It takes you out of your everyday human life and establishes that connection that reminds you of your purpose on this earth.

Now I'm sure the argument will come, please read what RKA and SJD mean in every occurence in the Quran. As in read all the verses mentioned in the articles. Reading them in Arabic and English, there's a big difference. The different English translations use different words for SJD in different verses. Only the Arabic Quran has the same word and that is SJD.

Wakas, I have been thinking about Salat a lot these few days, and going back to a statement you made earlier......

I believe this was the gist of your statement (I can not find it atm, though I did include it in a pm to you a few weeks ago) - 'Islam is a flexible religion, it is the muslims' fear of this flexibility that makes them seek out strict rules and details from people forming the sects we have today'

How about this view
'Islam is a flexible religion, and that is shown by the survival of different sects and madhabs that are present today. They all live together and pray together towards one Qibla, aiming to worship God.'

The different sects differ in their methods of prayer, and doesn't this show that there is not one correct method for praying. They pray differently, yet side by side in Masjid Al-Haraam. The differences are small. The main aim, worshipping God, is the same

Now, the topic of Shirk can arise here, as who exactly are the following by performing Salat this way? Are they following their interpretation of what God has said, and perfected it to the best way they believe a salat can be done? Is it all Shirk? Or is it all just following an interpretation aiming to worship and please God alone?

Isn;t that what the people on this forum are doing? Following their own interpretation? Some believe that the 'sunni' salat is meaningless rituals/movements. That is their opinion.

What if I want to pray the way some of the people here do, at Masjid Al-Haraam? Sure I can!!! No one is forcing me to pray the way the 'sunnis' do. I can pray my 2 salats at the edges of the day if that is what I believe God has ordered me to do. And indeed the way I want. I can bow then prostrate then bow then stand and recite then bow again!

Isn't that the beauty of Islam?

As I said before, I am still confused and stuck on the rituals. These last few days have been hard as they have seriously challenged me. I am asking God to guide me to the Straight Path.

I would love to write a post if/when I see the light at the end of the tunnel regarding this topic, but for now just a little post to confirm what Wakas said by starting this thread!

Regards

Ramzi

P.S Please read what is in red twice!

And as always..... I hope I am not repeating any questions previously asked, if so, then please link me to the thread and I will love to read the whole debate in my own time!

Many Thanks!

Wakas

peace Soof,

NB I use the term "Quran Alone" and "Quran Aloner" only to act as a reference, not as an endorsement of the term.

peace Ramzi,

I am sure there will be flexibility with "salat" according to The Quran, within limits. And my statement probably got deleted with the forum server move hence you couldn't find it but it is unlikely I would have described islam as a religion, and it is not "fear" of flexibility, it is not appreciating flexibility, i.e. not seeing the wisdom in it......... but you got the gist of my statement right.

jonny_k

Peace "ramzi",
As i told you the "salat" issue has also confused me in the beginning. I dont think either that it is a very big problem if you think that GOD preserved the salat via Abraham and the ppl in the "masjidul haram" in mecca know how these are performed, hence youlook at them and copy that. RK was also still stuck with that view. HOWEVER you must not stop thinking. Thats the important thing. DO NOT INSIST that this is the right method and look at the evidence on the other side. Qs why when you look at the root meaning of mecca the meanings would be "destruction" and similar and not the name of a city. Qs whether there was a city named mecca before the rev of the Quran. Qs also the same for the term "kaaba" and "masjidul haram". Only then will we all ultimately find the truth. GOD Bless!

Layth

Salam,

No I cannot provide evidence from The Quran, as I never took it from The Quran.

Then why do you use the words Muslim and Quran alone in your opening statement?

Shouldn`t your post more accurately be

The different stages Wakas thinks are signs of enlightement

Because, taking for example you point # 5, we can clearly see from the Quran the total opposite as a person who rejects/denys the existence of any tenents of faith (God, angels, scriptures, messengers, and J-day) has gone astray - 4136

Wakas

peace,

Then why do you use the words Muslim and Quran alone in your opening statement?

When I use "Muslim" with a capital I mainly use it to reference what is commonly known as a "Muslim". Secondly, see the following

NB I use the term "Quran Alone" and "Quran Aloner" only to act as a reference, not as an endorsement of the term.

Shouldn`t your post more accurately be

The different stages Wakas thinks are signs of enlightement

No, because this would be inaccurate. As stated in my original post, it is not my list but it is one I consider good enough to post as "food for thought".

Because, taking for example you point # 5, we can clearly see from the Quran the total opposite as a person who rejects/denys the existence of any tenents of faith (God, angels, scriptures, messengers, and J-day) has gone astray - 4136

Stage 5 does not say anything about rejecting God etc. This is your own strawman argument.

I prefer to discuss what is actually said.

Layth

Dear Wakas,

Stage 5 does not say anything about rejecting God etc. This is your own strawman argument.

I prefer to discuss what is actually said.

There is no strawman argument here. Let us discusus what you actually said

Basically, it means the different stages a Muslim who turns to the "Quran Alone" view goes though on their journey of increasing knowledge/discovery, with stage 5 being the highest level

Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

Now, the Quran tells us that people who deny the messengers have gone astray.

Therefore, there is a clear contradiction between what you suggest are signs of enlightenment and what the Quran describes as going astray.

Samia

Questioning of sharia laws (but not of rituals and hadith)
Questioning of hadith (but not of rituals)
Questioning of rituals (but not of existence of those rituals, merely a revision of them)
Questioning of the very existence of rituals (including Mecca itself)
Questioning the existence of historical personalities (like nabis and rasul).

These are roughly the stages I went through, with a slight difference in stage 1 and stage 5.
I would say I had a pre stage 1 from a very young age questioning customs and traditions (not hadith). Later, when I started questioning hadith itself, I found in it the basis for those customs and traditions. In beteen was the stage 1.

Stage 5 I do not question the existence of historical personalities such as nabi and rasool, simply because the quraan tells us about them. However, I do not think that this is what meant by "believing in His messengers" but "believing in His MESSAGES". The word "rasool" also means message. Moreover, God says that He did not tell us about all the messenger, and at the same time we are not supposed to differentiate between the messengers. How can I believe "equally" in the existence of messengers I was not told about?

huruf

Regarding the Prophets I think we are being to I-centric. The messengers are all the same even if we do not see them. They know, God knows, we... what does it matter... we may be also know there are all the same, because the are one, all the messengers are one, because one is the message, and the messenger knows that the message is one, and therefore doesn't see Himself as apart from this unit of messengership, add to that they are humble, so the problem, if there is one, is there is a not in them but in us.

Precisely, because they are one, it doesn't matter if we speak about 3isa or Abraham or any unknown (to us) messenger, through any one we think we are acknowledging all of them. They are not distinguishable, which is why we may not know of many -and there must have been very many if they were sent to all peoples and to the jinns- and that is also why we do not need to know too many particulars about any (which foot the shoed first, or things like that), if it is not to highlight some part of the message.

Salaam

Wakas

peace Layth,

Now, the Quran tells us that people who deny the messengers have gone astray.

I dont think it is possible that one can deny the messenger AND accept the message, thus it is likely you have misunderstood what stage 5 means. It is not my list so I cant be certain what it means either.

Therefore, there is a clear contradiction between what you suggest are signs of enlightenment and what the Quran describes as going astray.

What I suggest? I suggest re-reading my posts.