Who are the people of the book?
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Salaam pvb
samia - you know nothing about Jesus by reading just the Quran and not reading the Gospel. The Quran confirms a scripture and you don't want to read it?
Like what? His temptations for example? The qur'aan tells about Jesus more than it tells about Muhammad or many other messengers. It tells me what is necessary to know. It's not a biography. Give me one confirmed and important detail that the qur'aan overlooked regarding the story of Jesus (or any other prophet/messenger for that matter). Ironically, it's only in hadith that we find details of the life of Muhammad. If I am not concerning myself with details of one messenger, why should I bother about details of other messengers' lives?
Salam,
I took for granted that it would not be difficult to understand the story. I see from your post above that I was mistaken.
An Elephant belonging to a traveling exhibition had been stabled near a town where no elephant had been seen before. Four curious citizens, hearing of the hidden wonder, went to see if they could get a preview of it. When they arrived at the stable they found that there was no light. The investigation therefore had to be carried out in the dark.
The elephant represents scripture.
One, touching its trunk, thought that the creature must resemble a hose pipe;
the second felt an ear and concluded that it was a fan.
The third, feeling a leg, could liken it only to a living pillar;
and when the fourth put his hand on its back he was convinced that it was some kind of throne.Each person is only reading ONE part of scripture. In some the case of some people they ONLY read the Quran.
None could form the complete picture;
When one does not read ALL the scriptures, they cannot FULLY understand the information contained therein.
and of the part which each felt, he could only refer to it in terms of things which he already knew.
IF all you read is the Quran....you will try to find answers that the QURAN. But the QURAN itself tells you to look elsewhere The previous scriptures.
The result of the expedition was confusion.
Each was sure that he was right;Those who only read the OT are SURE they are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.
Those who only read the QURAN are sure they are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.But they are still confused on many points. Why? Because they are not SEEING the Elephant. They are just feeling around in the dark.
none of the other townspeople could understand what had happened, what the investigators had actually experienced.
"You follow NO GOOD until you KEEP UP the TORAH and INJEEL"
Salam,
ArnabSalaam Arnab
Yes, you have to put a sign for each part of your story so that it is twisted to your understanding. The qur'aan tells me to believe in previous scriptures (you did not have to cite all the verses), but it also told me that it had copied what is valid in the qur'aan and replaced what is no more valid by better ones. It did not even mention the fabrications and unnecessary additions (which, of course are to be disregarded, no matter which "religion" they emanate from). The qur'aan tells us about messages, not just from the time of Jesus and Moses, but back from Noah. The message is one, revealed in parts and confirmed in the qur'aan . The qur'aan tells us about what was revealed to Noah and the other messengers down to the last one. Please tell us of ONE imporant and indispensible detail revealed in other scriptures that the qur'aan has overlooked.
The word QURAN means "that which is recited" You do yourselves a great WRONG by making a claim that "a particular writing" is Quran.
Salaam Al Araf
Your definition applies to "a qur'aan a great recitation". What we have is the great recitation AL qur'aan, or as Ayman puts it The Great Reading, because the pattern "fa3laan" is an emphatic pattern. The non-emphatic/standard pattern is "qiraa'a recitation". So, yes, you are partially right the other scriptures are recitations, but Al qur'aan is THE great reading/mother of all readings. -
Salaam pvbLike what? His temptations for example? The qur'aan tells about Jesus more than it tells about Muhammad or many other messengers. It tells me what is necessary to know. It's not a biography. Give me one confirmed and important detail that the qur'aan overlooked regarding the story of Jesus (or any other prophet/messenger for that matter). Ironically, it's only in hadith that we find details of the life of Muhammad. If I am not concerning myself with details of one messenger, why should I bother about details of other messengers' lives?
Have you READ the Gospel in ARAMAIC to make this statement or are you reciting only what others have told you?
Salaam Arnab
Yes, you have to put a sign for each part of your story so that it is twisted to your understanding.
rotfl No, its a well established story that has been told for centuries to illustrate similiar examples and the meanings are clear.
Even Wikipedia has an article on it LOL
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Men_and_an_Elephant
The qur'aan tells me to believe in previous scriptures (you did not have to cite all the verses), but it also told me that it had copied what is valid in the qur'aan and replaced what is no more valid by better ones.
No, it does not say that.
It did not even mention the fabrications and unnecessary additions (which, of course are to be disregarded, no matter which "religion" they emanate from). The qur'aan tells us about messages, not just from the time of Jesus and Moses, but back from Noah. The message is one, revealed in parts and confirmed in the qur'aan . The qur'aan tells us about what was revealed to Noah and the other messengers down to the last one.
The Quran summarizes, reminds, and confirms (among other things). The details are in the previous scripture. You cannot be REMINDED if you do not have the FULL stories to be reminded about. You cannot understand the summaries if you don't know the FULL stories that are summarized and you do not know what is being confirmed or corrected if you have no other basis for your information other than the correction of confirmation itself.
Please tell us of ONE imporant and indispensible detail revealed in other scriptures that the qur'aan has overlooked.
The KEY WORD in that above statement is DETAIL. The DETAILS for many things are in previous scripture.
Prayer, and observation DETAILS of Holy days to name two very important DETAILS that are in previous scripture. Not to say that the Quran does not mention them. But the DETAILS are in the previous scriptures.
The following is directed to the readers of this thread
When someone makes a statement about a subject without having knowledge about the subject other than heresay, they are only parroting what others have told them.
Let me be more specific
When someone says that the previous scripture is filled with lies, has been changed, or is not revelation
AND
They have not read these scriptures in their ORIGINAL languages,They are speaking about that which they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE and merely parroting what others have told them.
Now, if someone says that they have read the previous scripture in Hebrew and Aramaic an intelligent discussion can ensue.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
By your reasoning then the Quran is not to be followed entirely either...(which is not true)
...Say "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah and the Injeel, and what was descended to you from your Lord (the Quran)."
Exactly WHERE do you SEE that the WHOLE of the previous scriptures is not to be followed. It does not say this in THIS verse or the others. This is your imagination.
Where exactly do you see that the WHOLE of the previous scriptures refers to the Catholic cannon books minus selective exclusions like the letters of Paul?
That is your imagination and belief ? It reads follow the Torah and the Injeel and what was descended to you from your Lord, i.e. Quran which contains Torah and Injeel in it.
Again, which previous scriptures; according to Mark, Mary, Thomas, Peter, et al...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
12111
In their narration (stories there) had been an example to those of the pure minds/hearts (it) was not an information/speech to be fabricated and but confirmation (to) which (is) between his hands and detailing/explaining/clarifying every thing, and guidance, and mercy to (a) nation believing.This verse actually supports my statements.
No it does not ? in their narration is referring to Quran which confirms what the previous scriptures contained, not that it?s the same thing as contradicting hearsay fabrications floating around or details how to perform pagan rituals.
Peace
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Have you READ the Gospel in ARAMAIC to make this statement or are you reciting only what others have told you?
No. I read The qur'aan in its original language.
rotfl No, its a well established story that has been told for centuries to illustrate similiar examples and the meanings are clear.
No. This is your story. The "well established story" speaks of blind men, not a light that went out or was not there. Just to show you how the slightest change, even unintended or innocent, can change the message. Can you guarantee us that the Injil and Torah you speak about, even in their original language, are word to word of what God revealed? Or they just reflect the way their authors understood them? Why don't you accept translations? Isn't it for the ame reason?
You also deducted your own conclusion that agrees with your agenda. according to Buddha, it represents people blindly following an old textNo, it does not say that.
There are two statements. Which one do you refer to?
The Quran summarizes, reminds, and confirms (among other things). The details are in the previous scripture. You cannot be REMINDED if you do not have the FULL stories to be reminded about. You cannot understand the summaries if you don't know the FULL stories that are summarized and you do not know what is being confirmed or corrected if you have no other basis for your information other than the correction of confirmation itself.
Haven't you ever come in accross the word "remember athkur the story of so and so when ...." in the qur'aan? Haven't you ever come accross a statement like "that was what We told people before you?". It's called reminder because it RETELLS stories and some commandments.
1317 "as for the foam, it withers away and dies out, and what benefits the people stays in the earth"
Ironically, this verse was the rendition of Rumi for the story of the elephant and the blind men.The KEY WORD in that above statement is DETAIL. The DETAILS for many things are in previous scripture.
So God did not know how to correctly phrase His statement when He spoke of this book as detailed, complete and contains every example? Where did He tell us to look up details in other scriptures?
Prayer, and observation DETAILS of Holy days to name two very important DETAILS that are in previous scripture. Not to say that the Quran does not mention them. But the DETAILS are in the previous scriptures.
I do not know what "prayer" you talk about. If you mean "salaat", this is what God tells us
1958-59 "Those are whom God gave them of His bounty prophets from the progony of adam and from the progony of those whom we carried with Noah and from the progony of Ibrahim and Israel and from those We guided and chose, those who when verses of the Almighty are read to them fell down in obeience and tears* Then came after them descendants who lost the salat and followed their desires..."
So you think God is entrusting us to those people who lost salaat to teach us salaat?
Holy days? Never heard of that!! Nor what to eat during those days ;D -
Where exactly do you see that the WHOLE of the previous scriptures refers to the Catholic cannon books minus selective exclusions like the letters of Paul?
I have NEVER EVER said that. This is your misunderstanding.
It reads follow the Torah and the Injeel and what was descended to you from your Lord, i.e. Quran which contains Torah and Injeel in it.
You are wrong. The Quran does not contain the Torah and Injeel (although it references it). Please read the entire thread.
Salam,
Arnab -
No. I read The qur'aan in its original language.
But NOT the Gospels in Aramaic? So, then why do you say they are corrupt if you have NEVER read them?
No. This is your story. The "well established story" speaks of blind men, not a light that went out or was not there. Just to show you how the slightest change, even unintended or innocent, can change the message.
Samia, your not reading what I wrote obviously.
The story I quoted was from Idries Shah (in 1964). I did not write it. If you re-read my original thread you will see that.
Second, if you ACTUALLY READ the wiki article you would see that the story has taken on many forms through the years all to relay the SAME message. But those who have trouble understanding analogies will never get it I guess.Can you guarantee us that the Injil and Torah you speak about, even in their original language, are word to word of what God revealed? Or they just reflect the way their authors understood them? Why don't you accept translations? Isn't it for the ame reason?
Because, the Torah is the SAME Torah we have today that Isa had and Muhammad had in their time. The Injeel is the SAME Injeel that Muhammad had. How do I know this? Because we have archeological evidence that these writings are THE SAME. They have been carbon dated and analyzed.
You also deducted your own conclusion that agrees with your agenda. according to Buddha, it represents people blindly following an old text There are two statements. Which one do you refer to?Haven't you ever come in accross the word "remember athkur the story of so and so when ...." in the qur'aan? Haven't you ever come accross a statement like "that was what We told people before you?". It's called reminder because it RETELLS stories and some commandments.
1317 "as for the foam, it withers away and dies out, and what benefits the people stays in the earth"
Ironically, this verse was the rendition of Rumi for the story of the elephant and the blind men.So God did not know how to correctly phrase His statement when He spoke of this book as detailed, complete and contains every example? Where did He tell us to look up details in other scriptures?You would KNOW where Allah told us to READ other scriptures if you ACTUALLY READ the verses I listed before.
I do not know what "prayer" you talk about. If you mean "salaat", this is what God tells us
1958-59 "Those are whom God gave them of His bounty prophets from the progony of adam and from the progony of those whom we carried with Noah and from the progony of Ibrahim and Israel and from those We guided and chose, those who when verses of the Almighty are read to them fell down in obeience and tears* Then came after them descendants who lost the salat and followed their desires..."
So you think God is entrusting us to those people who lost salaat to teach us salaat?Salat is following closely. If you do a word study on the usage in the Quran you would know that.
Holy days? Never heard of that!! Nor what to eat during those days ;D
Well of course you have never heard of it, you limit your study and rely on others to tell you what THEY SAY is not scripture. It doesn't surprise me at all.
Salam,
Arnab -
I have NEVER EVER said that. This is your misunderstanding.
You are wrong. The Quran does not contain the Torah and Injeel (although it references it). Please read the entire thread.
I did read the thread and your other posts which you claim the Injeel is supposedly according to Mark, John, Luke, and Matthew whoever these people are and you are asking us to read those books in Aramaic and neglect the countless other writing according to so and so. Is this correct?
If not, then please answer and tell us exactly which scriptures do you want us to read?
Which previous scriptures is the word for word Injeel; according to Mark, Mary, Thomas, Peter, et al...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
They all contradict and if it contradicts it cannot be from God.
We can discuss one verse in context at a time for it's obvious you read Torah and Injeel in Quran and auto associate that to mean what was agreed to by whichever Church and Jewish sects as their books.
Nice summary on the topic...
http//ebrahimsaifuddin.wordpress.com/2007/03/08/a-detailed-paper-refuting-christian-claim-that-the-quran-testifies-the-bible-to-be-uncorrupted/
Peace
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I did read the thread and your other posts which you claim the Injeel is supposedly according to Mark, John, Luke, and Matthew whoever these people are and you are asking us to read those books in Aramaic and neglect the countless other writing according to so and so. Is this correct?
If not, then please answer and tell us exactly which scriptures do you want us to read?
Matthew Mark Luke and John yes that is correct.
Not the whole of what Catholics or Christians regard as scripture minus selective writings as you stated earlier.
Which previous scriptures is the word for word Injeel; according to Mark, Mary, Thomas, Peter, et al...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
They all contradict and if it contradicts it cannot be from God.
Again, like I tell everyone else who argues with me about this, If you HAVE NOT read them in Aramaic, then HOW can you say that they contradict?
Which, in fact, they do not.
If you have not read them....you are merely quoting heresay....not something of which you have knowledge of.
We can discuss one verse in context at a time for it's obvious you read Torah and Injeel in Quran and auto associate that to mean what was agreed to by whichever Church and Jewish sects as their books.
Those are your words and your misunderstanding.
Salam,
Arnab -
But NOT the Gospels in Aramaic? So, then why do you say they are corrupt if you have NEVER read them?
Please show me where I said they are corrupt. I do not want arguemnet, just quote my message where I said that.
Samia, your not reading what I wrote obviously.
The story I quoted was from Idries Shah (in 1964). I did not write it. If you re-read my original thread you will see that.
Second, if you ACTUALLY READ the wiki article you would see that the story has taken on many forms through the years all to relay the SAME message. But those who have trouble understanding analogies will never get it I guess.You are neither reading what I wrote, nor are you reading the link of wiki you provided. No matter who quoted the story (from Buhdda to Rumi), they ALL referred to 6 BLIND men, not 4 men and there WAS NO LIGHT. And my response was based on your statement, not the actual story. People can understand the story in many different ways (that's what your link says). But to retell the story with rong details then claim to have reached the same understanding is quite amusing.
Because, the Torah is the SAME Torah we have today that Isa had and Muhammad had in their time. The Injeel is the SAME Injeel that Muhammad had. How do I know this? Because we have archeological evidence that these writings are THE SAME. They have been carbon dated and analyzed.
Why would God command us to read scriptures in aramaic, an almost dead language? People read translations of the qur'aan and they understand it very well, in spite of the not very accurate translation. Why do you insist that people should read those scriptures in their original languages? This means people should not just study the language, but master it. I read them in Arabic. It was a comparative study between the OT, the NT and the qur'aan in more than 500 pages. This is just that you stop saying you have not read this you have not read that. Those who read them in their own language are not spared your criticism because "they did not read it in aramaic"!!
Why are there so many sects in Christianity? Marriage between them is even not allowed. Do they ALL follow the same injeel? If not, which one follows the "same" injeel revealed to Isa?You would KNOW where Allah told us to READ other scriptures if you ACTUALLY READ the verses I listed before.
Now you are forgetting your own post? The verses say "believe" not "read". You yourself wrote
Part of being a ?believer? is believing in that which is revealed and that which was revealed BEFORE
Salat is following closely. If you do a word study on the usage in the Quran you would know that.
bravo At last we agree on something. Then what "details of prayer" you are talking about?
Well of course you have never heard of it, you limit your study and rely on others to tell you what THEY SAY is not scripture. It doesn't surprise me at all.
I am referring to the qur'aan. Don't beat around the bush and stop contradicting yourself Does the qur'aan or doesn't it contain details of holy days? If it does, then you were lying, if it does not, then you are lying now.
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Matthew Mark Luke and John yes that is correct.
Again, like I tell everyone else who argues with me about this, If you HAVE NOT read them in Aramaic, then HOW can you say that they contradict?
Which, in fact, they do not.
Then translate these literal translations and tell us how this is revelation/Injeel given to Jesus?
Matthew 27 >>
38 Then crucified with him are two robbers, one on the right hand, and one on the left, 39 and those passing by were speaking evil of him, wagging their heads, 40 and saying, 'Thou that art throwing down the sanctuary, and in three days building it, save thyself; if Son thou art of God, come down from the cross.'Mark 15 >>
24 And having crucified him, they were dividing his garments, casting a lot upon them, what each may take; 25 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him;Luke 23 >>
33 and when they came to the place that is called Skull, there they crucified him and the evil-doers, one on the right hand and one on the left.John 19 >>
17 and bearing his cross, he went forth to the place called Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha; 18 where they crucified him, and with him two others, on this side, and on that side, and Jesus in the midst.Peace
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Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
But NOT the Gospels in Aramaic? So, then why do you say they are corrupt if you have NEVER read them?
Quote from Samia
Please show me where I said they are corrupt. I do not want arguemnet, just quote my message where I said that.Here it is
Salaam Arnab
Yes, you have to put a sign for each part of your story so that it is twisted to your understanding. The qur'aan tells me to believe in previous scriptures (you did not have to cite all the verses), but it also told me that it had copied what is valid in the qur'aan and replaced what is no more valid by better ones. It did not even mention the fabrications and unnecessary additions (which, of course are to be disregarded, no matter which "religion" they emanate from). The qur'aan tells us about messages, not just from the time of Jesus and Moses, but back from Noah. The message is one, revealed in parts and confirmed in the qur'aan . The qur'aan tells us about what was revealed to Noah and the other messengers down to the last one. Please tell us of ONE imporant and indispensible detail revealed in other scriptures that the qur'aan has overlooked.
Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
Samia, your not reading what I wrote obviously.The story I quoted was from Idries Shah (in 1964). I did not write it. If you re-read my original thread you will see that.
Second, if you ACTUALLY READ the wiki article you would see that the story has taken on many forms through the years all to relay the SAME message. But those who have trouble understanding analogies will never get it I guess.Quote from Samia
You are neither reading what I wrote, nor are you reading the link of wiki you provided. No matter who quoted the story (from Buhdda to Rumi), they ALL referred to 6 BLIND men, not 4 men and there WAS NO LIGHT. And my response was based on your statement, not the actual story. People can understand the story in many different ways (that's what your link says). But to retell the story with rong details then claim to have reached the same understanding is quite amusing.Samia, it is painfully obvious that you have an inability to understand analogies. I am no longer going to discuss this aspect of the subject with you.
Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
Because, the Torah is the SAME Torah we have today that Isa had and Muhammad had in their time. The Injeel is the SAME Injeel that Muhammad had. How do I know this? Because we have archeological evidence that these writings are THE SAME. They have been carbon dated and analyzed.
Quote from Samia
Why would God command us to read scriptures in aramaic, an almost dead language?Because, like I?ve said repeatedly, the Gospels were written in Aramaic. Please don?t confuse this with the Torah which should be read in Hebrew.
Quote from Samia
People read translations of the qur'aan and they understand it very well, in spite of the not very accurate translation.That is absolutely untrue. They come away with many misconceptions and misunderstandings when they only read a translation of the Quran. The Quran must be read in Arabic.
Quote from Samia
Why do you insist that people should read those scriptures in their original languages? This means people should not just study the language, but master it.So that they can properly understand what God is commanding.
To free themselves from others biases and untruths in translations.
And to receive a PURE understanding of the teachings of the Prophets.
Once someone relies on translations they are allowing someone else tell them what who and how to believe and they are not relying on God to teach them.
These are only a few reasons.Quote from Samia
I read them in Arabic. It was a comparative study between the OT, the NT and the qur'aan in more than 500 pages.Then you read a translation and not the scriptures in the original language.
Furthermore if it was a book ABOUT the scriptures it was filled with biases. sigh
Quote from Samia
This is just that you stop saying you have not read this you have not read that. Those who read them in their own language are not spared your criticism because "they did not read it in aramaic"!!If they did not read it in ARAMAIC?.the language it was written in?THEN HOW does reading them in THEIR OWN language make any difference? IT IS STILL A TRANSLATION.
Quote from Samia
Why are there so many sects in Christianity? Marriage between them is even not allowed. Do they ALL follow the same injeel? If not, which one follows the "same" injeel revealed to Isa?Why are there so many Muslim sects? Why are there so many Jewish sects? The list can go on and on.
Do you want to discuss scripture or ?what people do??
?People do? all sorts of things that are not commanded to them.
AND they call themselves Christians, Muslims and Jews.We are not discussing what ?PEOPLE DO? because the list of what ?PEOPLE DO? is endless.
Just focus on the scriptures.Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
You would KNOW where Allah told us to READ other scriptures if you ACTUALLY READ the verses I listed before.
Now you are forgetting your own post? The verses say "believe" not "read". You yourself wrotePart of being a ?believer? is believing in that which is revealed and that which was revealed BEFORE
Samia, don?t be ridiculous. I gave you a HUGE list of verses. Besides, for someone to BELIEVE wouldn't they have to have knowledge of what they were believing?
Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
Salat is following closely. If you do a word study on the usage in the Quran you would know that.
At last we agree on something. Then what "details of prayer" you are talking about?I am working on a comparison and I will post it in its on thread soon, insha Allah.
Quote from Samia Holy days? Never heard of that!! Nor what to eat during those days
Quote from Arnab on Today at 121234 PM
Well of course you have never heard of it, you limit your study and rely on others to tell you what THEY SAY is not scripture. It doesn't surprise me at all.To which you said in your last post
I am referring to the qur'aan. Don't beat around the bush and stop contradicting yourself
I DID NOT beat around the bush. NOR did I contradict myself. Stop blatantly lying and making slanderous accusations that are untrue.
Does the qur'aan or doesn't it contain details of holy days? If it does, then you were lying, if it does not, then you are lying now.
You aren?t even pay attention to the words in ENGLISH let alone do a competent examination of the Arabic words.
Here is what I said
Quote from Arnab
The KEY WORD in that above statement is DETAIL. The DETAILS for many things are in previous scripture.
Prayer, and observation DETAILS of Holy days to name two very important DETAILS that are in previous scripture. Not to say that the Quran does not mention them. But the DETAILS are in the previous scriptures.
The Quran mentions, refers to and reminds?THE DETAILS (please look up the word, I?m not confident that you understand the meaning) are in the PREVIOUS SCRIPTURE.
Salam,
Arnab -
Here it is
Samia, it is painfully obvious that you have an inability to understand analogies. I am no longer going to discuss this aspect of the subject with you.
Because, like I?ve said repeatedly, the Gospels were written in Aramaic. Please don?t confuse this with the Torah which should be read in Hebrew.
Here is what I said
The Quran mentions, refers to and reminds?THE DETAILS (please look up the word, I?m not confident that you understand the meaning) are in the PREVIOUS SCRIPTURE.Salam,
ArnabSalaam Arnab.
I do not speak or understand Aramic and here in front of me I have The Hebrew Bible in English according to the JPS 1917 Edition, I need your help to understand it properly
Please explain to me this
Genesis Chapter 19, verses 30-38
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar; and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 31 And the first-born said unto the younger 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.' 33 And they made their father drink wine that night. And the first-born went in, and lay with her father; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the first-born said unto the younger 'Behold, I lay yesternight with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.' 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose, and lay with him; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37 And the first-born bore a son, and called his name Moab--the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38 And the younger, she also bore a son, and called his name Ben-ammi--the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. {S}Are we supposed to believe that prophet Lut impregnated both his daughters or is it different in Aramaic?
Best regards
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Salaam Arnab.
I do not speak or understand Aramic and here in front of me I have The Hebrew Bible in English according to the JPS 1917 Edition, I need your help to understand it properly
Please explain to me this
Genesis Chapter 19, verses 30-38
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar; and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 31 And the first-born said unto the younger 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.' 33 And they made their father drink wine that night. And the first-born went in, and lay with her father; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the first-born said unto the younger 'Behold, I lay yesternight with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.' 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose, and lay with him; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37 And the first-born bore a son, and called his name Moab--the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38 And the younger, she also bore a son, and called his name Ben-ammi--the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. {S}Are we supposed to believe that prophet Lut impregnated both his daughters or is it different in Aramaic?
Best regards
Salam,
I think you get the idea of the story from this translation.
Key things to consider are
31 And the first-born said unto the younger 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth.
The first born thought that there was no men left on the earth.
These are HER thoughts and the thoughts of her sister who agreed with her.This is NOT a commandment. This is a history of what happened.
And for the record this is from the Torah and should be read in Hebrew.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
I think you get the idea of the story from this translation.
Key things to consider are
31 And the first-born said unto the younger 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth.
The first born thought that there was no men left on the earth.
These are HER thoughts and the thoughts of her sister who agreed with her.This is NOT a commandment. This is a history of what happened.
And for the record this is from the Torah and should be read in Hebrew.
Salam,
ArnabSalaam
If this is not what happend then why is it cited in the book of God and why should one even read such a story? I though its for us to follow so why write the thoughts of girls who apparently had no faith in God? And if its not a commandment and what is the objective of this?
ALSO
I see contradiction in the character of David here and the one we are familiar with in the Qur?an. So which one is the true David, the one who is shown to be an adulterer and fornicator and betrayer and murderer of his loyal captain Uriah or the David presented to us in the Qur'an, Or the translation is distored?Is it the same in Aramaic?
2 Samuel Chapter 11
1 And it came to pass, at the return of the year, at the time when kings go out to battle, that David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the children of Ammon, and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried at Jerusalem. {S} 2 And it came to pass at eventide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house; and from the roof he saw a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon. 3 And David sent and inquired after the woman. And one said 'Is not this Bath-sheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?' 4 And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness; and she returned unto her house. 5 And the woman conceived; and she sent and told David, and said 'I am with child.' 6 And David sent to Joab 'Send me Uriah the Hittite.' And Joab sent Uriah to David. 7 And when Uriah was come unto him, David asked of him how Joab did, and how the people fared, and how the war prospered. 8 And David said to Uriah 'Go down to thy house, and wash thy feet.' And Uriah departed out of the king's house, and there followed him a mess of food from the king. 9 But Uriah slept at the door of the king's house with all the servants of his lord, and went not down to his house. 10 And when they had told David, saying 'Uriah went not down unto his house', David said unto Uriah 'Art thou not come from a journey? wherefore didst thou not go down unto thy house?' 11 And Uriah said unto David 'The ark, and Israel, and Judah, abide in booths; and my lord Joab, and the servants of my lord, are encamped in the open field; shall I then go into my house, to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife? as thou livest, and as thy soul liveth, I will not do this thing.' 12 And David said to Uriah 'Tarry here to-day also, and to-morrow I will let thee depart.' So Uriah abode in Jerusalem that day, and the morrow. 13 And when David had called him, he did eat and drink before him; and he made him drunk; and at even he went out to lie on his bed with the servants of his lord, but went not down to his house. 14 And it came to pass in the morning, that David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15 And he wrote in the letter, saying 'Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him, that he may be smitten, and die.' {S} 16 And it came to pass, when Joab kept watch upon the city, that he assigned Uriah unto the place where he knew that valiant men were. 17 And the men of the city went out, and fought with Joab; and there fell some of the people, even of the servants of David; and Uriah the Hittite died also. 18 Then Joab sent and told David all the things concerning the war; 19 and he charged the messenger, saying 'When thou hast made an end of telling all the things concerning the war unto the king, 20 it shall be that, if the king's wrath arise, and he say unto thee Wherefore went ye so nigh unto the city to fight? knew ye not that they would shoot from the wall? 21 who smote Abimelech the son of Jerubbesheth? did not a woman cast an upper millstone upon him from the wall, that he died at Thebez? why went ye so nigh the wall? then shalt thou say Thy servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also.' 22 So the messenger went, and came and told David all that Joab had sent him for. 23 And the messenger said unto David 'The men prevailed against us, and came out unto us into the field, and we were upon them even unto the entrance of the gate. 24 And the shooters shot at thy servants from off the wall; and some of the king's servants are dead, and thy servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also.' {S} 25 Then David said unto the messenger 'Thus shalt thou say unto Joab Let not this thing displease thee, for the sword devoureth in one manner or another; make thy battle more strong against the city, and overthrow it; and encourage thou him.' 26 And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she made lamentation for her husband. 27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and took her home to his house, and she became his wife, and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD. {P}Also see 2 Samuel Chapter 12
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Salaam
Also see 2 Samuel Chapter 12
I hope you noticed similarity in Chapter 12 in the story .... 'There were two men in one city the one rich, and the other poor. Which is mentioned in the Qur?an as a test for David.
So my question is why was this story mentioned in the Qur?an and the other one left out, which should have been of importance as it relates to the parents of Suleiman.
My logic says that Qur?an only relates those verses from previous scriptures which were authentic and, yes we believe in the previous scripture but only so far as it does not contradict the Quran, the final edition of God?s word.
Salaam
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I hope you noticed similarity in Chapter 12 in the story .... 'There were two men in one city the one rich, and the other poor. Which is mentioned in the Qur?an as a test for David.
Salam,
I have studied these verses extensively.
I was just about to go into a very very long post on the subject.
But since you already see the similarity....that saves me a lot of time. bravo
We can just move on to your next question.So my question is why was this story mentioned in the Qur?an and the other one left out, which should have been of importance as it relates to the parents of Suleiman.
Because the Quran has stated many many times how important previous scripture is.
The assumption is that the reader is already familiar with the stories and only needs a reminder, clarification or correction of common misconceptions/misunderstandings or something similiar.
My logic says that Qur?an only relates those verses from previous scriptures which were authentic and, yes we believe in the previous scripture but only so far as it does not contradict the Quran, the final edition of God?s word.
SalaamThere are no contradictions in the original languages.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
I think you get the idea of the story from this translation.
Key things to consider are
31 And the first-born said unto the younger 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth.
The first born thought that there was no men left on the earth.
These are HER thoughts and the thoughts of her sister who agreed with her.This is NOT a commandment. This is a history of what happened.
And for the record this is from the Torah and should be read in Hebrew.
Salam,
ArnabPeace.
You can't base the example of Lut on this Biblical account. This is what led many Jews to believe that Lut was a drunk, a false accusation. According to the Torah and Talmud, there were actual commandments given to Noah, a prophet according to al-Qur'an, and Lut and his children followed these commandments, one of which forbade them from committing this type of act... Al-Qur'an doesn't cite that story about Lut impregnating his own daughters, so how do you know it's true???
Because the Quran has stated many many times how important previous scripture is.
The assumption is that the reader is already familiar with the stories and only needs a reminder, clarification or correction of common misconceptions/misunderstandings or something similiar.
If this is true, this would form a contradiction of Scripture, since al-Qur'an refers to Mohammed's people as "gentiles", and people unlearned in Scripture. So, how would they know all the details of this story? ??? It reminds them by re-reciting the stories to the people, to make them aware of "what they did not know"... If you ask the Jews about the Torah, they say the one written by Moses was lost, and that Ezra the scribe re-wrote the commands for the Jews so they would follow the Law, mostly doing so from memory. So, if this is the case with regard to the Torah, how do you know that everything you read in the Bible about the Torah is correct?
My logic says that Quran only relates those verses from previous scriptures which were authentic and, yes we believe in the previous scripture but only so far as it does not contradict the Quran, the final edition of Gods word.
The Scriptures tell us that God is not "short of words" - everything we need is in al-Qur'an-majeed. The only way we can truly agree with the Biblical stories that al-Kitaab backs up is by believing in the stories that it restates. It confirms the previous Scriptures by restating them. If it doesn't restate them, how do we know that particular Scripture is confirmed?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Matthew Mark Luke and John yes that is correct.
Not the whole of what Catholics or Christians regard as scripture minus selective writings as you stated earlier.
Again, like I tell everyone else who argues with me about this, If you HAVE NOT read them in Aramaic, then HOW can you say that they contradict?
Which, in fact, they do not.
If you have not read them....you are merely quoting heresay....not something of which you have knowledge of.
Those are your words and your misunderstanding.
Salam,
ArnabPeace.
Regardless of whether you THINK the stories don't contradict, which many verses of them do in Aramaic, why would we be commanded to read these books, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? God tells us through al-Qur'an that we should follow the "light" that He sent down to us, and it has been completely agreed upon that these Biblical accounts of Esa's life were NOT sent down by God, they were written by men. Studying these and blindly following them amount to believing in the sunna and hadeeths of Mohammed. These are all man-made books, used to idolize God's messengers and exalt them against their will. Don't mistake these for the Injeel that al-Qur'an confirms, the one that was SENT DOWN to Esa - these are not the same thing.
Peace.
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Peace.
You can't base the example of Lut on this Biblical account. This is what led many Jews to believe that Lut was a drunk, a false accusation.
You're right, I have seen no evidence of Lut being a drunk (by drunk I mean someone who often drank to get drunk).
According to the Torah and Talmud, there were actual commandments given to Noah, a prophet according to al-Qur'an, and Lut and his children followed these commandments, one of which forbade them from committing this type of act...
Sodom and Gomarrah were just wiped off the face of the earth. They ran to the mountains. For all they knew there were no more Humans anywhere (remember the oldest voicing her thoughts on the subject?). In this crisis situation, they acted as they thought was necessary to preserve the human race.
Al-Qur'an doesn't cite that story about Lut impregnating his own daughters, so how do you know it's true???
If you have been reading this thread...you must know what my answer is going to be....
Do I have to say it again? I'm guessing by your question that I probably do.....
Because the Quran tells us to observe the Torah given to Moses. The Torah is the same today as it was in the time of MUHAMMAD. This story is within the Torah.
If this is true, this would form a contradiction of Scripture, since al-Qur'an refers to Mohammed's people as "gentiles", and people unlearned in Scripture. So, how would they know all the details of this story? ???
It reminds them by re-reciting the stories to the people, to make them aware of "what they did not know"...Oh, your referring to the false understanding that Muhammad was illiterate. This is a subject for another thread but I see NO evidence to believe that Muhammad was illiterate.
If you ask the Jews about the Torah, they say the one written by Moses was lost, and that Ezra the scribe re-wrote the commands for the Jews so they would follow the Law, mostly doing so from memory.
You are making an absolute statement about something you know nothing about.
There are many MANY....let me say it one more time for emphasis....MANY....people of Judaism that do NOT believe that.
So, if this is the case with regard to the Torah, how do you know that everything you read in the Bible about the Torah is correct?
Because, it is absolutely NOT the case.
The Scriptures tell us that God is not "short of words"
Then why do you have trouble believing, reading and following previous scripture? Are you going to limit God's words to the revelation given to Prophet Muhammad? When he himself relayed to you that others were given scripture and others had Al Kitab and others had been following it for generations before? Are you believing in part of the book and disbelieving in the other?
- everything we need is in al-Qur'an-majeed.
Yes, that's true and.....
in the Quran containing everything.....it says...uphold the Torah and Injeel and previous scripture....
it also tells you that there are signs in the moon and stars....
and they are outside of the physical book you hold in your hand just as the previous scripture is outside of the physical book.The only way we can truly agree with the Biblical stories that al-Kitaab backs up is by believing in the stories that it restates. It confirms the previous Scriptures by restating them. If it doesn't restate them, how do we know that particular Scripture is confirmed?
The Quran does not recant the histories word for word. I would say that in the Quran stating that one is to read and follow previous scripture that the assumption is that the reader is already familiar with the stories.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace.
Regardless of whether you THINK the stories don't contradict, which many verses of them do in Aramaic, why would we be commanded to read these books, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? God tells us through al-Qur'an that we should follow the "light" that He sent down to us, and it has been completely agreed upon that these Biblical accounts of Esa's life were NOT sent down by God, they were written by men. Studying these and blindly following them amount to believing in the sunna and hadeeths of Mohammed. These are all man-made books, used to idolize God's messengers and exalt them against their will. Don't mistake these for the Injeel that al-Qur'an confirms, the one that was SENT DOWN to Esa - these are not the same thing.
Peace.
Salam,
You are wrong.
Salam,
Arnab