Who are the people of the book?

Muslimtruthrevealed

Well if my literal and word for word translation is wrong... then the simplest thing you can do is to give the right translation of this phrase... If you look at 7155 - 156 ... You will see that the verse are referring to Musa and his people... the people who we know as Ahl-ul-Kitab... However, I still cannot get your way of thinking...

If I want to say this in arabic..

the news is written in the news paper

I will say...

Al Akhbaarou matooban fil jareedati...

In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel'

The meaning of this phrase is PLAIN... Moubeen...Clear... Why are you trying to make us see what is not written there??

The Quran is a guide for humanity in complete.... Its not intended only for high thinkers... Do you think the farmer/labourer etc... I mean those who did not pursue big studies will know about these details and weird gramatical rules... They will have to understand the Quran plainly as Allah says in many times in the Quran, Al-Kitab Al moubeen...

@Wayfinder Maktooban is a passive participle, which means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Subject of the verb, NOT active, but acted upon; receiving impressions or INTERNAL influences

Wayfinder, its impossible to 'write' something in past tense, using a passive participle or for that matter to 'write' something in a literal or active sense, a passive participle is just that, passive, internal influence NOT something 'actively' written on papers.

@Wayfinder your reference to the ayah is incorrect...

"In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel' "

Correct transliteration....

Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli

The question still remains to be answered, What is the subject/object that maktooban, the passive participle is influencing?

Samia

Salaam MTR

Still you are unable to prove me wrong.

Hans Weir entry is corrupted by you when you mix entries of two different words to add to the meanings of one word.
Tantawi was referred to in his "Grammatical Analysis of the Glorious Qur'aan" for a completely wrong grammatical analysis of a word.

Nope, sorry, Al Tawrat and Al Injeel are NOT the 'object' of the passive participle Maktoob.

Now tell me, where did you study that a passive participle must have an object, or may even have an object?

Muslimtruthrevealed

@Wayfinder Maktooban is a passive participle, which means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Subject of the verb, NOT active, but acted upon; receiving impressions or INTERNAL influences

Wayfinder, its impossible to 'write' something in past tense, using a passive participle or for that matter to 'write' something in a literal or active sense, a passive participle is just that, passive, internal influence NOT something 'actively' written on papers.

@Wayfinder your reference to the ayah is incorrect...

"In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel' "

Correct transliteration....

Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli

The question still remains to be answered, What is the subject/object that maktooban, the passive participle is influencing?

maktooban / written AAinda / on (Object) hum / them

The Tawrat and Injeel was 'revealed' BEFORE Muusa, as and Essa,as .....

It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel

(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.

There is no 'writing' of 'previous scriptures'

You wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself / olaika kataba fee quloobihimu al-eemana wa ayyadahum biroohin minhu. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.

WayFinder

@Wayfinder Maktooban is a passive participle, which means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Subject of the verb, NOT active, but acted upon; receiving impressions or INTERNAL influences

Wayfinder, its impossible to 'write' something in past tense, using a passive participle or for that matter to 'write' something in a literal or active sense, a passive participle is just that, passive, internal influence NOT something 'actively' written on papers.

@Wayfinder your reference to the ayah is incorrect...

"In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel' "

Correct transliteration.... <---- <---- <---- yay

Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli

The question still remains to be answered, What is the subject/object that maktooban, the passive participle is influencing?

You have said on and on that the translation is not correct... however, I asked you for the correct translation and you have not given it yet and you keep saying the same thing and same verses on and on.... So first thing to do if you want to post a reply for this post is to translate this verse 'correctly' in your view...

Regards

Muslimtruthrevealed

yajidoonahu / they find maktooban / written, described, whose example is defined AAinda / near, on, with hum / them fee / in Al-Tawrati wa Al-Injeeli

Confirmed....

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks / seemahum fee wujoohihim , the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

seemahum means a sign, a characteristic, outward characteristic, feature , trait, stamp, impress, character, facila expression, features, character traits;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1255-1256 (wasama) Page 501-502 (sami?a)

wujoohihim means direct face

unknownuser

There is no 'writing' of 'previous scriptures'

Are you sure, then what was sent to Sheba other than a previous Quran?

Qalat ya ayyuha almalao innee olqiya ilayya kitabun kareemun
2729 She said "You, you the nobles, that I, is thrown to me (an) honored book

Innahu min sulaymana wainnahu bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
2730 That it truly is from Soliman, and that it truly is by God's name the almighty, the most merciful.

Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
5677 That it truly (is) a Quran, honored

Muslimtruthrevealed

Are you sure, then what was sent to Sheba other than a previous Quran?

Qalat ya ayyuha almalao innee olqiya ilayya kitabun kareemun
2729 She said "You, you the nobles, that I, is thrown to me (an) honored book

Innahu min sulaymana wainnahu bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
2730 That it truly is from Soliman, and that it truly is by God's name the almighty, the most merciful.

Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
5677 That it truly (is) a Quran, honored

You answered your own question!

Quran Kareem!

Sulaiman,as sends the Kitab to Saba....

"Go you, with this Kitabi of mine, and deliver it to them. then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return"...

Ithhab bikitabee hatha faalqih ilayhim thumma tawalla AAanhum faonthur matha yarjiAAoona

There was, for Saba, aforetime, a Sign in their home-land - two Gardens to the right and to the left. "Eat of the Sustenance (provided) by your Lord, and be grateful to Him. a territory fair and happy, and a Lord Oft-Forgiving!

Then they rejected....Quran Kareem

But they turned away (from Allah), and We sent against them the Flood (released) from the dams, and We converted their two garden (rows) into "gardens" producing bitter fruit, and tamarisks, and some few (stunted) Lote-trees.

That was the Requital We gave them because they ungratefully rejected Faith. and never do We give (such) requital except to such as are ungrateful rejecters.

WayFinder

yajidoonahu / they find maktooban / written, described, whose example is defined AAinda / near, on, with hum / them fee / in Al-Tawrati wa Al-Injeeli

Confirmed....

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks / seemahum fee wujoohihim , the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

seemahum means a sign, a characteristic, outward characteristic, feature , trait, stamp, impress, character, facila expression, features, character traits;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1255-1256 (wasama) Page 501-502 (sami?a)

wujoohihim means direct face

Peace MTR

I see that you are making another attempt to bypass the 7157 and redirecting our attention elsewhere on other verses and you are therefore arousing a lot of confusion around... The 7157 is so plain and clear, however, your biased view is urging you to use the other verse as a confirmation... the very same verse which you keep pasting on and on... Whats wrong with you? Whats wrong wrong with your logic?

However, what I can find very wrong with you is your arabic grammar....

You are using all kind of words to describe the state of these words.... Can you use arabic words themselves to define these words?

MAKTOOBAN --> Haal, Mansoob (Do you know what this means?)

HAAL is a state of a word which denotes a state of something... Same as RAAKI3AN(bowing or humble state), QAA'IMAN (standing state) etc...

HAAL are always MANSOOB.... And this is the proof that MAKTOOB(AN) is a HAAL here....

MAKTOOB means written down... Can you find another meaning from the dictionaries? The object on which it is written down is clearly stated in the 7157 itself... Its written down 'FEE / in" At Tawrat and Al-Injeel.... But no idea why this is not fitting in your head.... Although its plain and clear...

The fact is, this 7157 alone proves that Al-Tawrat and Al-Injeel were written down... We all know that something written down cannot happen in the present... Since the Quran was currently being revealed, it cannot link back to mean the Quran.... This 7157 alone make your whole theory collapse....

I advice you to stop bringing so much confusion in the minds of people....

IF YOU WANT TO REPLY AGAIN, PLEASE, MAKE A WHOLE LONG POST ON THE 7157 ALONE AND NOT GO PASS IT IN 1 LINE.... IF VERILY, YOU ARE AMONG THE ONES WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...

Regards

Muslimtruthrevealed

Excuse me what is wrong with you?

You folks are so fixated on condemning and vilifying me that you cant see the forest for the trees....

Again....

Al Tawrat and Al Injeel is REVEALED!!!! NOT written

Get over it!!!!!

You tried to ignore the preposition AAinda and the pronoun 'hum' in a previous post, because thats the ONLY way you can suggest that the subject/object of the passive particle maktooban, can 'write' to Al Tawrat and Al Injeel.

That did'nt work.

Then someone wants to 'play' and 'manipulate' the grammatical rules by suggesting the passive particle does NOT require a subject/object. Just so you all can say Al Tawrat and Al Injeel was 'written', unbelievable.

That did'nt work either.

Ok Lets see If the 'Hal' works for you....

Define the accusative case in 7.157.....The Object...The Subject...The Verb

Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAinda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli

I await your answer.....

WayFinder

Excuse me what is wrong with you?

You folks are so fixated on condemning and vilifying me that you cant see the forest for the trees....

Again....

Al Tawrat and Al Injeel is REVEALED!!!! NOT written

Get over it!!!!!

Why to get over it? Because you are saying so? Even if it is in clear contradiction against the Quran... Also, its not of my intention to vilify you or whatever... It is just about proving your assumptions to be wrong when compared against what the Quran has to say...

You tried to ignore the preposition AAinda and the pronoun 'hum' in a previous post, because thats the ONLY way you can suggest that the subject/object of the passive particle maktooban, can 'write' to Al Tawrat and Al Injeel.

That did'nt work.

Then someone wants to 'play' and 'manipulate' the grammatical rules by suggesting the passive particle does NOT require a subject/object. Just so you all can say Al Tawrat and Al Injeel was 'written', unbelievable.

That did'nt work either.

Ok Lets see If the 'Hal' works for you....

Define the accusative case in 7.157.....The Object...The Subject...The Verb

Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAinda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli

I await your answer.....

I told you... stop using these terms such as accusative/active participle or whatever... Use the original arabic terms as we learn in the NAHOU classes... For instance a noun can be marfou3,mansoob, majroor... same for a verb, but the verb can also remain mabnii...

MAKTOOBAN is HAAL... the proof is from the grammar rule that haal is always mansoob... mansoob means it ends with fatha/fathataan/yaa-noon

INDAHOUM is 'in their possession'... in whose possesion? definitely in the possession of the subject of this phrase, therefore 'those who are following the gentile prophet'... these guys are the subject of this phrase... INDAHOUM links back to them... Therefore, they have it written in their possesion... Now written in WHAT?? Again in same phrase... FII means IN... do u this meaning? Now in WHAT? At-Tawraat and Al-Injeel....

A phrase as simple as this ' Those who follow the gentile prophet/rasool whom they find written in their possesion in the tawraat and the injeel....' is so difficult to understand?

Again you fail to understand what Allah has revealed clearly and you are focussing on blurry parts... check this verse...

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Also in your previous post... you brought the verse from Aal Imran to confirm this verse... However the 7157 itself is a confirmation verse, it is confirming the prophethood of Muhammad... So do we need another verse to confirm another confirmation verse? What about another verse to confirm the confirmation verse of the confirmation verse .... Endless loop.... When a verse is confirming something... It is stand alone...

I think I did not tell this anywhere, but I work in primary school and I teach Arabic language... Before becoming Arabic teacher, I studied arabic at school, then college, then institute before I get my teaching license... One of the main things we learn is the GRAMMAR or NAHOU and it is very important for the language... learning Arabic through english is not the right/best way... Arabic should be learn through arabic itself... same for the grammar and the grammatical lingo... So if you want to discuss this verse grammar-wise... you should discuss it using ARABIC lingo as we are dealing with arabic grammar which is very special compared to most other languages... So the ball is on your side....

Muslimtruthrevealed

@Wayfinder......

What? Why all the minutia?

All I asked for was to identify the Hal accusative case in 7.157

Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban A'inda-hum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli

Let me assist you.....

Hal Accusative must be accusative or finite verb and must be placed AFTER the direct object. By the way, the Hal Accusative is 'nearly' ALWAYS an active participle, but may be a passive participle or even a verbal noun.
Language of the Holy Quran by Nadwi page 347 - 348

@Wayfinder You have to consider the function both of the verb and of the preposition demanding the accusative in 7.157 (maktooban AAinda / -hum / &#1585

maktooban is NOT a finite verb, its a passive participle / , non-finite verb

@Wayfinder, Now you have to identify the Hal Accusative, because obviously maktooban does NOT meet the Finite Verb qualification.

Then your NEXT problem is trying to 'position' the Hal Accusative AFTER the direct object, that YOU claim are Al-Tawrat & Al-Injeel

@Wayfinder Again, Identify the Hal accusative case in 7.157 and position it correctly AFTER a direct object NOT subject, but object

I await your response.

WayFinder

I have no idea what haal accusative /positive/negative or whatever you are talking about... Can you give me the arabic term of this please... it will make more sense for me and what I have to look for...

Well, let's just forget 7157 for this time and focus on this little sentence...

--> I found the news written in the newspaper

In Arabic --> wajad tou al-akhbaara maktooban fil jareedati

Is this phrase correct? If not... then don't just post your grammar rules, BUT also correct this and re-phrase it as it should be...

Thank you....

Muslimtruthrevealed

Peace MTR

I see that you are making another attempt to bypass the 7157 and redirecting our attention elsewhere on other verses and you are therefore arousing a lot of confusion around... The 7157 is so plain and clear, however, your biased view is urging you to use the other verse as a confirmation... the very same verse which you keep pasting on and on... Whats wrong with you? Whats wrong wrong with your logic?

However, what I can find very wrong with you is your arabic grammar....

You are using all kind of words to describe the state of these words.... Can you use arabic words themselves to define these words?

MAKTOOBAN --> Haal, Mansoob (Do you know what this means?)

HAAL is a state of a word which denotes a state of something... Same as RAAKI3AN(bowing or humble state), QAA'IMAN (standing state) etc...

HAAL are always MANSOOB.... And this is the proof that MAKTOOB(AN) is a HAAL here....

MAKTOOB means written down... Can you find another meaning from the dictionaries? The object on which it is written down is clearly stated in the 7157 itself... Its written down 'FEE / in" At Tawrat and Al-Injeel.... But no idea why this is not fitting in your head.... Although its plain and clear...

The fact is, this 7157 alone proves that Al-Tawrat and Al-Injeel were written down... We all know that something written down cannot happen in the present... Since the Quran was currently being revealed, it cannot link back to mean the Quran.... This 7157 alone make your whole theory collapse....

I advice you to stop bringing so much confusion in the minds of people....

IF YOU WANT TO REPLY AGAIN, PLEASE, MAKE A WHOLE LONG POST ON THE 7157 ALONE AND NOT GO PASS IT IN 1 LINE.... IF VERILY, YOU ARE AMONG THE ONES WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...

Regards

I have no idea what haal accusative /positive/negative or whatever you are talking about... Can you give me the arabic term of this please... it will make more sense for what I have to look for...

You brought it up!!!!

;D laughrotfl

Im not forgeting Sura 7.157, you can go read newspapers. I will continue to read and study the Quran and the language of Allah.

WayFinder

You brought it up!!!!

;D laughrotfl

Im not forgeting Sura 7.157, you can go read newspapers. I will continue to read and study the Quran and the language of Allah.

Are you making a joke of yourself or what? Its not about reading the newspapers... Its about you and how you apply your weird grammar rules.... Do you think shooting smileys like this make you and your theory foolproof Can never be... Burst your bubble... smileys cannot help you...

You said you are not forgetting the 7157 but however YOU DID FORGET IT since I asked you to give a proper translation for this verse... So go on, give it... and lets see how its translate into english... is it difficult? Or will you again take the round about and start with your accusatives, participles and other stuff to fill this thread.... I am just asking for a proper translation on 7157.. thats all... And since YOU ARE STILL ARGUING on HAAL... therefore this is the reason why I brought up the 'newspaper' phrase so that you may CORRECT the phrase and the USAGE of the HAAL as you are saying PER YOUR RULES.... So you got another chance... You can translate the 7157 or the newspaper... nevermind, since both are using the HAAL maktooban... just wanna get your translation on the HAAL...

Ball on your side... will you shoot smileys again

Muslimtruthrevealed

@Wayfinder, I didn't ask you to fall in love with me, its fine.

Next time you engage me, please know what your talking about.

Lets summarize and end this argument your having with the Quran.

Yajidoonahu imperfect verb meaning "they perceive". I would suggest that its a Verb Form III, indicating the object of the verb is ?accompanied by someone or something." It indicates a participation between the subject (Messenger) and the object (Those/They who follow the Messenger).

Maktooban (written) is a passive participle, which according to formal rules of modern Arabic, the passive voice can only be used when the agent / doer is not expressed (Majhool / Unknown?).

Passive means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Object of the verb (Those/They who follow the Messenger), Passive Verb denotes the act is taking place among someone discoverable, and the act is done either through a human agency or through an unknown inner cause (Reference ?Learn the Language of The Quran? page 248

The Preposition A'inda is influencing or governing the verb Maktooban, bringing the influence of the passive verb, Maktooban 'near the presence' of the Object (Those/They who follow the Messenger), defined by the pronoun 'Hum / Them or They'

Its Allah who 'writes' upon the heart of the Believer and the Messengers influence the character and behavior of those who follow them, which this character and behavior is exemplified and defined in the Tawrat & Injeel

Sorry, no 'written scriptures' in Sura 7.157

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks / seemahum fee wujoohihim , the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

seemahum means a sign, a characteristic, outward characteristic, feature , trait, stamp, impress, character, facila expression, features, character traits;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1255-1256 (wasama) Page 501-502 (sami?a)

wujoohihim means direct face

WayFinder