Who did Prophet Ibraham tried to sacrifice, Ismael or Isacc, according to Quran?

dc2

But it is from genesis in fact that at one point I discussed this question with a Christian, and I can't remember where, it says concerning the sacrifice, that it was Abreham only son, which to me is clear that his only son was Ismael, since Isaac was never his only son.

this is gen 22.2 and i first became aware of this debate through yusuf ali's translation in note 4101 who claims the jews acted to gorify their branch of the family by distorting the scripture and name issac as the son and this use of "only" catches them at their game

The Jewish tradition, in order to glorify the younger branch of the family, descended from Isaac, ancestor of the Jews, as against the elder branch, descended from Ismail, ancestor of the Arabs, refers this sacrifice to Isaac (Genesis 22.1-1. Now Isaac was born when Abraham was 100 years old (Genesis 21.5) while Ismail was born to Abraham when Abraham was 86 years old (Genesis 16.16). Ismail was therefore 14 years older than Isaac. During his first 14 years Ismail was the only son of Abraham; at no time was Isaac the only son of Abraham.

i agree with huruf though that the identity of the son is perhaps as meaningless as the question of the number of sleepers in the cave which the quran rebukes as not being as important as the moral of the story while also chiding those who posed it. and perhaps really it was the arabs who acted to glorify their branch of the family and name ishmael as the son.

if it is a point to claim the invalidity of the quran by non-muslims then they must be assured that the quran leaves this question unanswered and the verse 37111 "And We gave him the good news of Isaac a prophet one of the Righteous" (which is the only quranic proof offered by those who name ishmael as the son) might not be referring to the "good news" of the subsequent birth of issac but rather his acension into prophethood.

i have also remember when researching this topic before that gen 2.22 is not always translated as "take your only son", particualry in the jewish torah translations (not old testament versions) though they may have been ammended having been made aware of this arguement. i would be interested if anyone here could translate the actual hebrew and refer to the root word for this "only". or if anyone has any old torahs lying about could they look it up and see what it says. the one i checked was in a bookstore and im not near one right now. i cant remember what it was. perhaps it was just "one" as mentioned by arnab.

there is also an article here about the debate
http//www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol2/4d.html

i just scanned it (kinda busy right now) and i think it was going on about how ishmaels mother was a slave and therefore he is not considered a legitimate son...so the use of "only" for issac is validified this way...not sure if that was the gist but i'll read it up later
anway
peace
dc2

unknownuser

Salaam Arnab, all

What does (thine own bowels) mean?

Salam,

It seems an odd translation to me, since bowels in English is usually associated with defecation and feces. It would not have been my first choice.

The root word that is translated as bowels by the translators is meem-ayin-ha

Strong?s number H4578

meeh
may-aw'
From an unused root probably meaning to be soft; used only in plural the intestines, or (collectively) the abdomen, figuratively sympathy; by implication a vest; by extension the stomach, the uterus (or of men, the seat of generation), the heart (figuratively) - belly, bowels, X heart, womb.

From Brown Driver Briggs
H4578

meeh
BDB Definition

internal organs, inward parts, bowels, intestines, belly
1a) inward parts
1b) digestive organs
1c) organs of procreation, womb
1d) place of emotions or distress or love (figuratively)
1e) external belly
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from an unused root probably meaning to be soft

Does this mean Ismael was not from Ibrahim's own bowels?

The verse where Eliezer of Damascus is referenced is in Genesis Chapter 15 does not refer to Ishmael or Isaac.

That verse was before either of them were born.

In Chapter 15, since Abraham has no children, he is asking who the heir will be.

He asks is this Elizier of Damascus to be the heir? And God corrects him

Gen 154 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying 'This man shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.'

Ishmael was an Heir and he was circumsized with the household and under the covenant and blessed etc etc..
The only difference is that he was not the one that Abraham attempted to sacrifice.

This does not to take away from the importance of Ishmael. There are many verses blessing Ishmael. Specifically Genesis Chapter 17

God's covenant with Abraham AND Ishmael (Isaac was not born yet)...

Gen 171 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him 'I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.

Gen 172 And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.'

Gen 173 And Abram fell on his face; and God talked with him, saying

Gen 174 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.

Gen 175 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.

Gen 176 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Gen 177 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 178 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.'

Gen 179 And God said unto Abraham 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.

Gen 1710 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee every male among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 1711 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you.

Gen 1712 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed.

Gen 1713 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Gen 1714 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'

Gen 1718 And Abraham said unto God 'Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!'

Gen 1719 And God said "Indeed, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

Gen 1720 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Gen 1721 And My covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.'

Gen 1722 And He left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Gen 1723 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

Gen 1724 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Gen 1725 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Gen 1726 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

Gen 1727 And all the men of his house, those born in the house, and those bought with money of a foreigner, were circumcised with him.
Because this seems to be the only justification for Ismael not being the heir.

Several things that I want to point out here are

Ishmael IS under the Covenant. And this is SO important that he is singled out.
Isaac was NOT born yet, so God is assuring Abraham that the covenant will be with Isaac also. The one who is going to be born a year later.
The only reason Isaac is singled out in this verse is because HE WASNT BORN when God was making the covenant with Abraham and Ishmael. So, that there could be no confusion as to whether or not Isaac would also be under the covenant.

Gen 1719 And God said "Indeed, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

This does NOT mean as many so-called scholars would have one believe that Isaac is under the covenant and not Ishmael.

There are many many verses dedicated to Ishmael being UNDER the Covenant and ALSO there are two verses that specifically point out that Ishmael and Abraham were circumcised ON THE SAME DAY.

Which leads us to this

2127

And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing

This is not the RAISING of a PHYSICAL building.

This is the covenant that Abraham and ISHMAEL accepted on the SAME DAY. THE raising of the foundations of the beyt.

According to previous scripture Was Ismael considered a prophet?

I don?t think that he is specifically called nabi.
But, Noah or Lut, are not specifically identified as nabi but we KNOW that they are.
Obviously they were given commandments by God and fulfilled them in both Genesis and the Quran.
Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

I see that there is an insistence in saying that Genesis is the word of God. It is not. Genesis is not revealed by God, Genesis is a narration of stories in some of which God is quoted, whether faithfully or not I do not know, but Genesis is not the word of God. The quotes of What God says are the only thing that should be of interest to compare with the Quran id indeed they are reliable, and that I do not know.

read http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596838.msg173954#msg173954

But it is from genesis in fact that at one point I discussed this question with a Christian, and I can't remember where, it says concerning the sacrifice, that it was Abreham only son, which to me is clear that his only son was Ismael, since Isaac was never his only son.

That's an incorrect translation it says one son. NOT ONLY SON. And it was only ONE son that was about to be sacrificed NOT two or three or four.

That aside, I do not think it is very important to know which son it was. The gist of the story is not in whether it was the one or the other. Both sons were good. The gist of the story was in the story itself not in which persons were involved, apart from the moral qualities of those persons, and those qualities all those who could have been involved did have them.

It is extremely important to analyze EVERY story that is given to us. No matter how insignificant it may seem. It's an intellectual exercise that leads to wisdom.

For example One small misunderstanding of a single word leads one to read and understand a verse in a completely different way.

Consider how much greater one's misconceptions will be if that person misunderstands a group of verses.

Its a domino effect.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

this is gen 22.2 and i first became aware of this debate through yusuf ali's translation in note 4101 who claims the jews acted to gorify their branch of the family by distorting the scripture and name issac as the son and this use of "only" catches them at their game

i agree with huruf though that the identity of the son is perhaps as meaningless as the question of the number of sleepers in the cave which the quran rebukes as not being as important as the moral of the story while also chiding those who posed it. and perhaps really it was the arabs who acted to glorify their branch of the family and name ishmael as the son.

Some want to glorify Isaac and some want to glorify Ishmael. But the FACT is that BOTH were under the covenant. BOTH were blessed DIRECTLY BY GOD, several times. I don't see how one is better than the other.

These are their distortions not what GOD says.

there is also an article here about the debate
http//www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol2/4d.html

i just scanned it (kinda busy right now) and i think it was going on about how ishmaels mother was a slave and therefore he is not considered a legitimate son...so the use of "only" for issac is validified this way...not sure if that was the gist but i'll read it up later
anway

Their claim is ludicrous. First they rely on a mistranslation and second they try to make excuses for the MISTRANSLATION.

There is no such thing as an illegitimate child in scriptures. This is something that was invented later.

Therefore, Ishmael is NOT illegitimate.

Consider that many of the sons of JACOB were from his HANDMAIDS/SURROGATE MOTHERS.

AND these children were not deminished in their status at ALL. They are NOT called illegitimate. So that claim is nonsense.

Salam,
Arnab

huruf

Arnab,

I didn't say that it was not important to examine and try to find out however there is to find out, and I usually do that within my means, what I meant was that for the moral of this story is not changed if it is one or the other. So to find out is more of an intellectual need than a need to understand the moral of the story. Or do you see a different meaning of it if it was one and not the other?

Salaam

unknownuser

Arnab,

I didn't say that it was not important to examine and try to find out however there is to find out, and I usually do that within my means, what I meant was that for the moral of this story is not changed if it is one or the other. So to find out is more of an intellectual need than a need to understand the moral of the story. Or do you see a different meaning of it if it was one and not the other?

Salaam

Salam huruf,

yes, I know what you mean.

There are many stages of belief and truth seeking.

For the ones finding faith They need to only understand the moral of the story.

Those here who are discussing the details of the willingness of Abraham to sacrafice Isaac are past that stage. They already understand the moral of the story.

So, now we are analyzing the details.

Salam,
Arnab

dc2

Their claim is ludicrous. First they rely on a mistranslation and second they try to make excuses for the MISTRANSLATION.

There is no such thing as an illegitimate child in scriptures. This is something that was invented later.

Therefore, Ishmael is NOT illegitimate.

Consider that many of the sons of JACOB were from his HANDMAIDS/SURROGATE MOTHERS.

AND these children were not deminished in their status at ALL. They are NOT called illegitimate. So that claim is nonsense.

having read the article i am sorry i posted the link, i should have discounted it as soon as i saw muslims being referred to as "mohamedans". interesting though that they didnt raise the points here regarding issac as the "one". as you can expext though this topic is a point of consensus for them to dismiss the quran as a devine work even though it shouldnt be.

unknownuser

Salaam,

He didn't try to sacrifice anybody- I think. Gods people don't do such things they actually as you believe oppose such nonsense, don't they?

The translation you are reading is the biblical story embodied into the quranic translation.

Try researching- if you want to wisely use your time.

Here is the start for you. hmm if you want to try as many people here already have.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913

Salaam.

unknownuser

Salaam,

He didn't try to sacrifice anybody- I think. Gods people don't do such things they actually as you believe oppose such nonsense, don't they?

Salam,

Did you not read the above verses? It's there in the Quran. Are you telling me that you don't believe in the story that is THERE in the QURAN?

The fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his child is not called into question by any of the Abrahamic faiths (Jewish, Christian, or Muslim).

The translation you are reading is the biblical story embodied into the quranic translation.

Read it again. I purposely listed verses from the Quran and Genesis. I stated at the beginning that it was a comparison.

Try researching- if you want to wisely use your time.

Here is the start for you. hmm if you want to try as many people here already have.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913

Simple... I read the Tanakh in Hebrew, the Injeel in Aramaic and the Quran in Arabic. The only research anyone needs to do is read Allah's scripture in the ORIGINAL languages.

Perhaps YOU are the one who should do more research.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Salaam,

He didn't try to sacrifice anybody- I think. Gods people don't do such things they actually as you believe oppose such nonsense, don't they?

The translation you are reading is the biblical story embodied into the quranic translation.

Salaam.

peace

Soof

Peace

The Tanakh is not a revelation from God nor is the current Torah, which was rebuilt by the Jews after it was "destroyed in a fire". The Injeel you refer to is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no Scripture we can call Gospel of Jesus Christ (ie direct revelation from God to Christ like the Torah or the Qur'an) that we know of. There is only The New Testament that is called the Peshitta. The translation of Abraham sacrificing his son is an ABROGATION of Christian/Jewish Teaching. Try looking for the root word for sacrifice. One other word from the root is slaughter, but they specifically chose SACRIFICE to fit in with what is being taught before. There is no SACRIFICE in God's religion, why would God order Abraham to sacrifice or slaughter his Son. God never orders to do wrong. The dream came from non-Godly means, God stopped him from doing it and saved Abraham's son from the great slaughter (which is the same words used in arabic but understood as ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice). Just because many Jews, Christians, Muslims believe God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son does not mean they are right. But we all believe in the God, so peace be upon you.

unknownuser

Peace

The Tanakh is not a revelation from God nor is the current Torah, which was rebuilt by the Jews after it was "destroyed in a fire".

The Tanakh is the SAME today as it was over 1900 years ago. Not to mention 1429 years ago in the time of Muhammad. There is scientific PROOF of this.

Dead Sea Scrolls are proven to be from BEFORE 100 CE

The Injeel you refer to is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no Scripture we can call Gospel of Jesus Christ (ie direct revelation from God to Christ like the Torah or the Qur'an) that we know of. There is only The New Testament that is called the Peshitta.

The WORD of ALLAH was with Isa and the WORD of ALLAH is protected. Not to mention that MANY MANY verses of the Quran are identical to Quotes of Isa. AND the stories related to Isa in the Injeel are retold in the QURAN.

The translation of Abraham sacrificing his son is an ABROGATION of Christian/Jewish Teaching.

This statement is baseless and false.

Try looking for the root word for sacrifice. One other word from the root is slaughter, but they specifically chose SACRIFICE to fit in with what is being taught before. There is no SACRIFICE in God's religion, why would God order Abraham to sacrifice or slaughter his Son.

At this point you are not arguing with me you are arguing with ALLAH. You can believe or disbelieve.

God never orders to do wrong. The dream came from non-Godly means, God stopped him from doing it and saved Abraham's son from the great slaughter (which is the same words used in arabic but understood as ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice).

These are YOUR words. I showed you the verses. Now YOU show me where it says that the dream was from "un-Godly" means!

That is a flat out fabrication on your part.

BOTH the QURAN and GENESIS specifically say that it was a TEST from GOD.

Just because many Jews, Christians, Muslims believe God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son does not mean they are right.

THE WORDS in the QURAN and TORAH say it! This is not some Hadith. This is Scripture.

Like I said, you are not arguing with me....you have an issue with Allah's words.

Are you claiming that you DON'T believe the WORDS that are in the Quran?

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Peace belalhammad,

Is my understanding of these verses right or wrong? and Why?

It was the first born son...

Rabbi hab lee mina alssaliheena
My Lord grant me from the righteous.

The above implies there were no sons, thus it was announced...

Fabashsharnahu bighulamin haleemin
So We announced good news to him with a clement boy.

So when he reached the struggle/endeavor with him...

Not a boy for he reached the age to endeavor with him (i.e. suffer and forbear).

"That I, I see in the sleep/dream that I, I slaughter you.?

This is symbolic (as most dreams) for taking up hardship living a prophet life.

So when they submitted and he followed him to the foreheads (i.e. they prayed).

And We called him "That you Abraham."
You had confirmed the dream, We, like that We reimburse the good doers.
That truly that it is the test, the clear/evident.

Test is if one summits themselves to God.

And We substituted him with a great slaughtered.
And We left on him in the others/lasts.
Peace on Abraham.
As/like that We reimburse the good doers.
That he truly is from Our worshippers/slaves the believers.
And We announced good news to him (of) Isaac a prophet from the correct/righteous.
And We blessed on him and on Isaac, and from their (B)'s descendants, (are) good doers...

Abraham substituted by Ishmael, Isaac, and others (a great slaughtered) to carry on.

Peace

unknownuser

Salam nun de plume,

One only arrives at those assumptions if they don't read the previous scriptures. The QURAN assumes that the reader already KNOWS the previous revelations AND believes in them. THIS is part of the description of a BELIEVER in 24.

I'm reposting the following from the another thread so that those reading may consider

IF you read the previous scripture in THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGE you would KNOW that the previous scriptures ARE from ALLAH.

Often times there are people who insist on reading the Quran in Arabic and then settle for a mistranslated version of the previous scripture.

Therefore I repeat
You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revealation.

But the authority on the Subject is ALWAYS ALLAH so, Let's see what is written in the Quran

Previous scripture is REVELATION from ALLAH

33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

544
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

545
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

546
And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

547
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

YOU follow NO GOOD until you Keep up the Torah and Injeel

568
Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

The ones who are GUIDED?.BELIEVE in what was revealed BEFORE?THIS is how we know who is guided as said in al baqarah....

24
And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

And this is what is said of those who do NOT believe in previous revelation?..

4136
O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

625
The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

566
And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

The common claim is that previous scripture has been lost or altered.

Those who make such claims are also claiming that THEY DISBELIEVE in the Quran when we are TOLD to uphold previous scripture.

I have given several verses as evidence regarding previous scripture. However, there ARE MANY MORE.

Allah clearly states that HE KNOWS BEST what is in the Heavens and the EARTH (that would include knowing that previous scriptures are STILL here for us to UPHOLD as COMMANDED).?

1755
And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to Dawood We gave a scripture.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Peace Arnab,

Was Genesis part of the Torah and Injeel?

365-66

O people of the Scripture! Why do you dispute about Abraham, while the Torah and the Injeel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.

unknownuser

Peace Arnab,

Was Genesis part of the Torah and Injeel?

Yes, the first book of the Torah.

365-66

O people of the Scripture! Why do you dispute about Abraham, while the Torah and the Injeel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.

You forgot to add the next verses which clearly identify that the people being referred to in the above verses are those saying he was a JEW and some are saying he was a CHRISTIAN

367-68
Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

I am not disputing. You are.
Nor am I saying he was a Christian or a Jew.

Scripture does not say such nonsense.
Only those who create sects in the perfect religion of ALLAH say that.

The Tanakh, the Injeel and the Quran are all revelations of Allah and we are not to make differences therein.

4213
He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Yes, the first book of the Torah.

You believe this is part of the earlier revelation?

http//nasb.scripturetext.com/judges/19.htm

22 While they were celebrating, behold, the men of the city, certain worthless fellows, surrounded the house, pounding the door; and they spoke to the owner of the house, the old man, saying, ?Bring out the man who came into your house that we may have relations with him.? 23 Then the man, the owner of the house, went out to them and said to them, ?No, my fellows, please do not act so wickedly; since this man has come into my house, do not commit this act of folly. 24 ?Here is my virgin daughter and his concubine. Please let me bring them out that you may ravish them and do to them whatever you wish. But do not commit such an act of folly against this man.? 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and brought her out to them; and they raped her and abused her all night until morning, then let her go at the approach of dawn. 26 As the day began to dawn, the woman came and fell down at the doorway of the man?s house where her master was, until full daylight.
27 When her master arose in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, then behold, his concubine was lying at the doorway of the house with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, ?Get up and let us go,? but there was no answer. Then he placed her on the donkey; and the man arose and went to his home. 29 When he entered his house, he took a knife and laid hold of his concubine and cut her in twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent her throughout the territory of Israel. 30 All who saw it said, ?Nothing like this has ever happened or been seen from the day when the sons of Israel came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Consider it, take counsel and speak up!?

You forgot to add the next verses which clearly identify that the people being referred to in the above verses are those saying he was a JEW and some are saying he was a CHRISTIAN

The Tanakh, the Injeel and the Quran are all revelations of Allah and we are not to make differences therein.

If they had the real Torah and Injeel (not pieces) why were they informed of this?

Why Quran to set things straight?

Peace

unknownuser

Hi Arnab,

You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revelation.

I do believe 100% in what I said previously.

The Saudi?s have been reading the quran in their mother language for the past 1400 years and been chopping people's hand, heads and other things off besides- so much for the ORIGINAL language.

Believe in your self and don't follow followers- do for others what you would have them do for you.

Thanks. peace

Soof

Peace Arnab

When was the Tanakh first revealed? are you trying to tell me the Tanakh is another revelation from Moses as well?
Yes I agree that the stories of Christ are retold in the Qur'an, but I disagree when you say there is an Injeel of Christ that we can pick up and read (at the moment)

Now on to the debate of Abraham, this is the guidance from God that we follow regarding our offspring

Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah hath provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance.
6140

Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners" made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so But leave alone them and their inventions.
6137

Why would God say these things in the Qur'an and then order Abraham to slaughter his Son? I am not arguing with God about his words because the english translation of the Qur'an is not the Qur'an. It is a translation where errors can creep in unawares. When we are given something from ANYONE on Earth we must verify it using our senses and brains, if I come to a different understanding than you, that does not mean what I am saying is false, it is my understanding, only God knows the true meaning, not you. My belief in the God and the cornerstones of the Qur'an does not change so you should not treat me as a person trying to dismember God's scripture. I am only coming of understanding, like you.

Ok lets get to work muscle, I hope you will read through

Thal-Ba-Ha
to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.

dhabaha vb. (I)perf. act. 271impf. act. 267, 2721, 37102perf. pass. 53

Why is sacrifice used specifically in 37102?

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said "O my father! Do as thou art commanded thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
37102

Note Abraham does not say I gained a revelation from God. There is nothing in the statement of Abraham to tell you it is from God! All he says is he has a vision, how many people of modern day have visions that they claim is from God? What makes you believe this vision is from God and not the Devil? and note this translation does not even use sacrifice

And when he attained the age of, running with him, he said O my son! verily I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering thee; so look, what considerest thou? He said O my father! do that which thou art commanded; thou shalt find me, Allah willing, of the patients.
37102

So why is sacrifice used in one but not the other, why is sacrifice so important when there is no need for it anywhere in the Qur'an? Why os sacrifice used elsewhere for killing animals, when it is slaughter (BECAUSE OF 2237).. interesting.

Now we are understand that God said "thou hast confirmed the vision; thus We recompense the good-doers." But the vision was the actual SLAUGHTER of his son, the son is not dead yet, so how can the vision be confirmed? Lets look at 37105 in more depth

37105 Of a surety thou hast fulfilled the vision. Verily We! thus We recompense the well-doers.

105 Qad saddaqta alrruya inna kathalika najzee almuhsineena

Qad is a particle that can be used with the perfective verb for emphasis, priority, as a result of something and expected information. For reference please look at this link http//books.google.co.uk/books?id=NYPnI8_LpZQC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=qad+particle+emphasis&source=web&ots=D6aaxleeEi&sig=fAV09pJVnObvEtJhJn54bpZc-ME&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

saddaqta (prf. 2nd, p.m. sing. II.) Thou fulfilled.

Together with Qad it can mean Thou Hast fulfilled the Dream, Verily!
Hast Thou Filled the Dream?
You were going to fulfill the dream!

Now for the reward/recompense part. More than 5 of the main translations use recompense, not reward. Why would God reward Abraham for fulfilling a vision that did not come from Him? Now what does recompense mean

the act of compensating for service or loss or injury
amends made, as for damage or loss

Abraham was in the midst of a mighty test, which he was about to fail, being a good-doer and a close friend of God, God stopped him from acting out the vision sent to him from a non-Godly source (USING THE UNDERSTANDING THAT GOD DOES NOT ORDER US TO KILL OUR CHILDREN, HE DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF 2052). By stopping Abraham from killing his Son He recompensed Abraham.

So my understanding from going straight to the source and not the translation is

Hast thou fulfilled the dream? Thus we recompense the good-doers.

Now for the ransoming with a great sacrifice

And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
37107

Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin
37107

350 Fa-Dal-Ya

he gave a thing, ransom, purchase, he loosed him or set him free, mufadat - giving a man and taking a man in exchange, a collection.

Fa-Dal-Ya

perf. act. 37107
n.vb. 474
fidyah n.f. 2184, 2196, 5715

It is used in 37107 to mean ransom whereas in 474, 2184 it is used to mean ransom as well when it is actually different grammatically. Why?

It is a perfect action being used in 37107, an action being done/completed. In this case "He set him free".

Ayn-Za-Miim

mighty, glorious, a man of moment, All-mighty, All-glorious, grievous, bounty/abounding, magnify/increase.bone.

The word AAatheemin used in this ayat is an exaggerative adjective used to give an understanding that something will be great/terrible/grievous/might/momentous. The EXACT same word has been used to refer to J-Day many times throughout the Qur'an, in many different translations it is used as grievous or terrible. In some it is used as mighty/great. (759, 9101, 3174, 615, 7116, 1015, 1937, 26135, 26156, 26189, 2879, 3913, 4135, 4621, 684, 835). By using the next word in the ayat we can come to an understanding of what words are more suitable for description.

1357 Thal-Ba-Ha

to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.

Here it is used again. Let us look at the word

bithibhin is a masculine noun. so it will not be used as an action or an adjective in this ayat. It will. be used as the slaughtered one, or the slaughter, the throat cutting. The slaughter would indeed have been Grievous or terrible, because he was going to kill his own son which is against the guidance of God! So we use the exaggerative adjective grievous or terriblePutting it together we understand it to mean

And we loosed him/set him free from the grievous/terrible slaughter/throat cutting.
37107

This is what I have come to understand using StudyQuran.org and its links, several transliterations and translations and linguistic journals. The reason for this study is because I believe there is a contradiction in the belief that God gave Abraham the vision of slaughtering his Son with the whole of the Qur'an, including the fact that God mentions quite bluntly that neither the blood nor the meat of the slaughtered reaches God, but the piety of our hearts (2237). I understand the story to be that Abraham was tempted by the devil, the fallible MAN that he was, and was almost led astray. God intervened and asked him if he has fulfilled his vision (rhetorical) and from this action (as God does not normally intervene) Abraham was recompensed for the loss of having followed the vision. And then his son was set free accordingly from the grievous sacrifice. I hope this does not seem baseless/false as it did before. If you disagree, peace

Soof

Hi Arnab,

I do believe 100% in what I said previously.

The Saudi?s have been reading the quran in their mother language for the past 1400 years and been chopping people's hand, heads and other things off besides- so much for the ORIGINAL language.

Believe in your self and don't follow followers- do for others what you would have them do for you.

Thanks. peace

Agreed