Who did Prophet Ibraham tried to sacrifice, Ismael or Isacc, according to Quran?

[unknownuser]

Salam nun de plume,

One only arrives at those assumptions if they don't read the previous scriptures. The QURAN assumes that the reader already KNOWS the previous revelations AND believes in them. THIS is part of the description of a BELIEVER in 24.

I'm reposting the following from the another thread so that those reading may consider

IF you read the previous scripture in THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGE you would KNOW that the previous scriptures ARE from ALLAH.

Often times there are people who insist on reading the Quran in Arabic and then settle for a mistranslated version of the previous scripture.

Therefore I repeat
You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revealation.

But the authority on the Subject is ALWAYS ALLAH so, Let's see what is written in the Quran

1. Previous scripture is REVELATION from ALLAH

33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.

544
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

545
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

546
And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

547
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

2. YOU follow NO GOOD until you Keep up the Torah and Injeel

568
Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

The ones who are GUIDED?.BELIEVE in what was revealed BEFORE?THIS is how we know who is guided as said in al baqarah....

24
And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

And this is what is said of those who do NOT believe in previous revelation?..

4136
O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

625
The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

566
And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

The common claim is that previous scripture has been lost or altered.

Those who make such claims are also claiming that THEY DISBELIEVE in the Quran when we are TOLD to uphold previous scripture.

I have given several verses as evidence regarding previous scripture. However, there ARE MANY MORE.

Allah clearly states that HE KNOWS BEST what is in the Heavens and the EARTH (that would include knowing that previous scriptures are STILL here for us to UPHOLD as COMMANDED).?

1755
And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to Dawood We gave a scripture.

Salam,
Arnab

[unknownuser]

Peace Arnab,

Was Genesis part of the Torah and Injeel?

365-66

O people of the Scripture! Why do you dispute about Abraham, while the Torah and the Injeel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.

[unknownuser]

Peace Arnab,

Was Genesis part of the Torah and Injeel?

Yes, the first book of the Torah.

365-66

O people of the Scripture! Why do you dispute about Abraham, while the Torah and the Injeel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.

You forgot to add the next verses which clearly identify that the people being referred to in the above verses are those saying he was a JEW and some are saying he was a CHRISTIAN

367-68
Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.

I am not disputing. You are.
Nor am I saying he was a Christian or a Jew.

Scripture does not say such nonsense.
Only those who create sects in the perfect religion of ALLAH say that.

The Tanakh, the Injeel and the Quran are all revelations of Allah and we are not to make differences therein.

4213
He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.

Salam,
Arnab

[unknownuser]

Yes, the first book of the Torah.

You believe this is part of the earlier revelation?

http//nasb.scripturetext.com/judges/19.htm

22 While they were celebrating, behold, the men of the city, certain worthless fellows, surrounded the house, pounding the door; and they spoke to the owner of the house, the old man, saying, ?Bring out the man who came into your house that we may have relations with him.? 23 Then the man, the owner of the house, went out to them and said to them, ?No, my fellows, please do not act so wickedly; since this man has come into my house, do not commit this act of folly. 24 ?Here is my virgin daughter and his concubine. Please let me bring them out that you may ravish them and do to them whatever you wish. But do not commit such an act of folly against this man.? 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and brought her out to them; and they raped her and abused her all night until morning, then let her go at the approach of dawn. 26 As the day began to dawn, the woman came and fell down at the doorway of the man?s house where her master was, until full daylight.
27 When her master arose in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, then behold, his concubine was lying at the doorway of the house with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, ?Get up and let us go,? but there was no answer. Then he placed her on the donkey; and the man arose and went to his home. 29 When he entered his house, he took a knife and laid hold of his concubine and cut her in twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent her throughout the territory of Israel. 30 All who saw it said, ?Nothing like this has ever happened or been seen from the day when the sons of Israel came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Consider it, take counsel and speak up!?

You forgot to add the next verses which clearly identify that the people being referred to in the above verses are those saying he was a JEW and some are saying he was a CHRISTIAN

The Tanakh, the Injeel and the Quran are all revelations of Allah and we are not to make differences therein.

If they had the real Torah and Injeel (not pieces) why were they informed of this?

Why Quran to set things straight?

Peace

[unknownuser]

Hi Arnab,

You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revelation.

I do believe 100% in what I said previously.

The Saudi?s have been reading the quran in their mother language for the past 1400 years and been chopping people's hand, heads and other things off besides- so much for the ORIGINAL language.

Believe in your self and don't follow followers- do for others what you would have them do for you.

Thanks. peace

[Soof]

Peace Arnab

When was the Tanakh first revealed? are you trying to tell me the Tanakh is another revelation from Moses as well?
Yes I agree that the stories of Christ are retold in the Qur'an, but I disagree when you say there is an Injeel of Christ that we can pick up and read (at the moment)

Now on to the debate of Abraham, this is the guidance from God that we follow regarding our offspring

Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah hath provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance.
6140

Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners" made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so But leave alone them and their inventions.
6137

Why would God say these things in the Qur'an and then order Abraham to slaughter his Son? I am not arguing with God about his words because the english translation of the Qur'an is not the Qur'an. It is a translation where errors can creep in unawares. When we are given something from ANYONE on Earth we must verify it using our senses and brains, if I come to a different understanding than you, that does not mean what I am saying is false, it is my understanding, only God knows the true meaning, not you. My belief in the God and the cornerstones of the Qur'an does not change so you should not treat me as a person trying to dismember God's scripture. I am only coming of understanding, like you.

Ok lets get to work muscle, I hope you will read through

Thal-Ba-Ha
to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.

dhabaha vb. (I)perf. act. 271impf. act. 267, 2721, 37102perf. pass. 53

Why is sacrifice used specifically in 37102?

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said "O my father! Do as thou art commanded thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
37102

Note Abraham does not say I gained a revelation from God. There is nothing in the statement of Abraham to tell you it is from God! All he says is he has a vision, how many people of modern day have visions that they claim is from God? What makes you believe this vision is from God and not the Devil? and note this translation does not even use sacrifice

And when he attained the age of, running with him, he said O my son! verily I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering thee; so look, what considerest thou? He said O my father! do that which thou art commanded; thou shalt find me, Allah willing, of the patients.
37102

So why is sacrifice used in one but not the other, why is sacrifice so important when there is no need for it anywhere in the Qur'an? Why os sacrifice used elsewhere for killing animals, when it is slaughter (BECAUSE OF 2237).. interesting.

Now we are understand that God said "thou hast confirmed the vision; thus We recompense the good-doers." But the vision was the actual SLAUGHTER of his son, the son is not dead yet, so how can the vision be confirmed? Lets look at 37105 in more depth

37105 Of a surety thou hast fulfilled the vision. Verily We! thus We recompense the well-doers.

105 Qad saddaqta alrruya inna kathalika najzee almuhsineena

Qad is a particle that can be used with the perfective verb for emphasis, priority, as a result of something and expected information. For reference please look at this link http//books.google.co.uk/books?id=NYPnI8_LpZQC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=qad+particle+emphasis&source=web&ots=D6aaxleeEi&sig=fAV09pJVnObvEtJhJn54bpZc-ME&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

saddaqta (prf. 2nd, p.m. sing. II.) Thou fulfilled.

Together with Qad it can mean Thou Hast fulfilled the Dream, Verily!
Hast Thou Filled the Dream?
You were going to fulfill the dream!

Now for the reward/recompense part. More than 5 of the main translations use recompense, not reward. Why would God reward Abraham for fulfilling a vision that did not come from Him? Now what does recompense mean

the act of compensating for service or loss or injury
amends made, as for damage or loss

Abraham was in the midst of a mighty test, which he was about to fail, being a good-doer and a close friend of God, God stopped him from acting out the vision sent to him from a non-Godly source (USING THE UNDERSTANDING THAT GOD DOES NOT ORDER US TO KILL OUR CHILDREN, HE DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF 2052). By stopping Abraham from killing his Son He recompensed Abraham.

So my understanding from going straight to the source and not the translation is

Hast thou fulfilled the dream? Thus we recompense the good-doers.

Now for the ransoming with a great sacrifice

And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
37107

Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin
37107

350 Fa-Dal-Ya

he gave a thing, ransom, purchase, he loosed him or set him free, mufadat - giving a man and taking a man in exchange, a collection.

Fa-Dal-Ya

perf. act. 37107
n.vb. 474
fidyah n.f. 2184, 2196, 5715

It is used in 37107 to mean ransom whereas in 474, 2184 it is used to mean ransom as well when it is actually different grammatically. Why?

It is a perfect action being used in 37107, an action being done/completed. In this case "He set him free".

Ayn-Za-Miim

mighty, glorious, a man of moment, All-mighty, All-glorious, grievous, bounty/abounding, magnify/increase.bone.

The word AAatheemin used in this ayat is an exaggerative adjective used to give an understanding that something will be great/terrible/grievous/might/momentous. The EXACT same word has been used to refer to J-Day many times throughout the Qur'an, in many different translations it is used as grievous or terrible. In some it is used as mighty/great. (759, 9101, 3174, 615, 7116, 1015, 1937, 26135, 26156, 26189, 2879, 3913, 4135, 4621, 684, 835). By using the next word in the ayat we can come to an understanding of what words are more suitable for description.

1357 Thal-Ba-Ha

to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.

Here it is used again. Let us look at the word

bithibhin is a masculine noun. so it will not be used as an action or an adjective in this ayat. It will. be used as the slaughtered one, or the slaughter, the throat cutting. The slaughter would indeed have been Grievous or terrible, because he was going to kill his own son which is against the guidance of God! So we use the exaggerative adjective grievous or terriblePutting it together we understand it to mean

And we loosed him/set him free from the grievous/terrible slaughter/throat cutting.
37107

This is what I have come to understand using StudyQuran.org and its links, several transliterations and translations and linguistic journals. The reason for this study is because I believe there is a contradiction in the belief that God gave Abraham the vision of slaughtering his Son with the whole of the Qur'an, including the fact that God mentions quite bluntly that neither the blood nor the meat of the slaughtered reaches God, but the piety of our hearts (2237). I understand the story to be that Abraham was tempted by the devil, the fallible MAN that he was, and was almost led astray. God intervened and asked him if he has fulfilled his vision (rhetorical) and from this action (as God does not normally intervene) Abraham was recompensed for the loss of having followed the vision. And then his son was set free accordingly from the grievous sacrifice. I hope this does not seem baseless/false as it did before. If you disagree, peace

[Soof]

Hi Arnab,

I do believe 100% in what I said previously.

The Saudi?s have been reading the quran in their mother language for the past 1400 years and been chopping people's hand, heads and other things off besides- so much for the ORIGINAL language.

Believe in your self and don't follow followers- do for others what you would have them do for you.

Thanks. peace

Agreed

[unknownuser]

Peace Soof,

How do you read/understand this verse?

37103 Falamma aslama watallahu liljabeeni
So when they submitted and he pulled/pushed/followed him to the foreheads.

Also, who does ?him? refer to below?

37107 Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin
And We substituted him with a great slaughtered.

37108 Watarakna AAalayhi fee al-akhireena
And We left on him in the others/lasts.

37108 Salamun AAala ibraheema
Peace upon Abraham.

[Soof]

peace Nun de plume

I believe him in this case is his Son. I do not think it is Isaac because God refers to him in 37112 straight after, which leads me to believe it is a new topic and the previous "vision" story is about another son - "We gave Abraham the good news of Isaac"; Earlier God says "so We gave him the good news that he would have a patient son" referring to a different son that grows up and is taken for a mighty test with Abraham. It may well be Ishmael.

Peace

[unknownuser]

You believe this is part of the earlier revelation?

http//nasb.scripturetext.com/judges/19.htm

22 While they were celebrating, behold, the men of the city, certain worthless fellows, surrounded the house, pounding the door; and they spoke to the owner of the house, the old man, saying, ?Bring out the man who came into your house that we may have relations with him.? 23 Then the man, the owner of the house, went out to them and said to them, ?No, my fellows, please do not act so wickedly; since this man has come into my house, do not commit this act of folly. 24 ?Here is my virgin daughter and his concubine. Please let me bring them out that you may ravish them and do to them whatever you wish. But do not commit such an act of folly against this man.? 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and brought her out to them; and they raped her and abused her all night until morning, then let her go at the approach of dawn. 26 As the day began to dawn, the woman came and fell down at the doorway of the man?s house where her master was, until full daylight.
27 When her master arose in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, then behold, his concubine was lying at the doorway of the house with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, ?Get up and let us go,? but there was no answer. Then he placed her on the donkey; and the man arose and went to his home. 29 When he entered his house, he took a knife and laid hold of his concubine and cut her in twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent her throughout the territory of Israel. 30 All who saw it said, ?Nothing like this has ever happened or been seen from the day when the sons of Israel came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Consider it, take counsel and speak up!?

Yes, I believe every word of it took place.

This is a record of what was happening at that time. Notice there is no commandments being given in these verses.

These are deeds and happenings that took place at that time.

It is no wonder that Prophets and messengers and wise ones spoke out about a portion of the Children of Isreal and their wicked deeds. They acted in a way that they were never commanded to act. Many times flat out ignoring the Torah.

All through the scriptures we read about how a portion of the children of Isreal turned away from God and his Commandments.

These passages should be no surprise.

They should also help you understand how the revelations that came to David, Isa, Muhammad and others were verses were God spoke about their disobedience.

There are many other atrocious deeds that we are told about in scripture.

They are not commandments as to what to do.

They are not examples of how to act.

They are examples how NOT to act.

And also an example of how horribly disobedient a portion of the beni Israel became. And it gives you an understanding of WHY so many other PROPHETS were sent afterwards to later generations.

If they had the real Torah and Injeel (not pieces) why were they informed of this?

They were warned over and over. Surely you have read this in the Quran at least.

They followed Talmud (the Jewish form of Hadith), their so called ?rabis? and scholars.
They started following their low desires and disregarding the words of God.
They were going astray! Not all of them, of course, but large numbers.

Why Quran to set things straight?

Quite simply It was needed for many reasons. One reason, is to show us what is real scripture.

The Quran is a guidance and a mercy. It corrects mis-conceptions, reminds, discriminates between truth and falsehood and many other things. If we didn?t have the Quran we may be following Hadith, Talmud, writings of Paul and many other misguidances.
The Quran tells us what is TRUTH and what is falsehood.

If they had the real Torah and Injeel (not pieces) why were they informed of this?
Why Quran to set things straight?

We have the real Quran as well and yet many of our brethren are still following hadith, and worshipping Muhammad instead of God.

There are those who call themselves Muslim but do the most Horrible things that they were never commanded to do.
Just the same as there were those who called themselves beni Israel then and did the most horrible things.

Salam,
Arnab

[unknownuser]

Peace Arnab

When was the Tanakh first revealed? are you trying to tell me the Tanakh is another revelation from Moses as well?

The Tanakh is another name for the old testament.

The Torah is also called the five books of Moses and is the first five books of the old testament.

I am not talking about anything new. I just used a different name to refer to the same thing.

Now on to the debate of Abraham, this is the guidance from God that we follow regarding our offspring

Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah hath provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance.
6140

Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners" made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so But leave alone them and their inventions.
6137

Why would God say these things in the Qur'an and then order Abraham to slaughter his Son?

It was a test. This is said DIRECTLY in the QURAN.

I am not arguing with God about his words because the english translation of the Qur'an is not the Qur'an. It is a translation where errors can creep in unawares.

I read the Quran in ARABIC. I've said this many times.

We are discussing the Arabic verses using the English lanugage.

Ok lets get to work muscle, I hope you will read through

Thal-Ba-Ha
to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.

dhabaha vb. (I)perf. act. 271impf. act. 267, 2721, 37102perf. pass. 53

Why is sacrifice used specifically in 37102?

Because that is what is meant. The word was chosen because GOD meant to use that word.

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said "O my father! Do as thou art commanded thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
37102

Note Abraham does not say I gained a revelation from God. There is nothing in the statement of Abraham to tell you it is from God! All he says is he has a vision, how many people of modern day have visions that they claim is from God? What makes you believe this vision is from God and not the Devil? and note this translation does not even use sacrifice

Because visions are from God.Shaitan cannot give you vision. He brings one to darkness (where we cannot see) out of light. God brings us to light (where we can see) out of darkness.

To be more specific The root ara is also used in 4029, 848, 1243, 1184, 843 And it refers to visions that Prophets had. I have not seen it used in a sense that was deceptive. In other words, I have not seen it used referring to "false" visions or "visions" from Shaitan.

And when he attained the age of, running with him, he said O my son! verily I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering thee; so look, what considerest thou? He said O my father! do that which thou art commanded; thou shalt find me, Allah willing, of the patients.
37102

So why is sacrifice used in one but not the other, why is sacrifice so important when there is no need for it anywhere in the Qur'an?

I would imagine the assumption is made that if you read the first verse it would lead you to the next and therefore there is no need to repeat the word.

Why os sacrifice used elsewhere for killing animals, when it is slaughter (BECAUSE OF 2237).. interesting. Now we are understand that God said "thou hast confirmed the vision; thus We recompense the good-doers." But the vision was the actual SLAUGHTER of his son, the son is not dead yet, so how can the vision be confirmed?

That?s what made it a test.
Does he (Abraham) obey God unquestionably?
Does he bow COMPLETELY to his will?
Does he TRUST his God?s visions no matter what the commandment is?

Remember that by this time, Abraham was very used to having visions, revelations etc by God. So, he ABSOLUTELY knew that it was God telling him what to do in his vision.
The test, therefore, was would he do ANYTHING that God asked, even kill his own son.

The deed was never meant to be carried through

why do I say that? Because if God had meant for it to be carried through it would have happened.

Now for the reward/recompense part. More than 5 of the main translations use recompense, not reward. Why would God reward Abraham for fulfilling a vision that did not come from Him? Now what does recompense mean

the act of compensating for service or loss or injury
amends made, as for damage or loss

Abraham was in the midst of a mighty test, which he was about to fail, being a good-doer and a close friend of God, God stopped him from acting out the vision sent to him from a non-Godly source (USING THE UNDERSTANDING THAT GOD DOES NOT ORDER US TO KILL OUR CHILDREN, HE DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF 2052). By stopping Abraham from killing his Son He recompensed Abraham.

So my understanding from going straight to the source and not the translation is

Hast thou fulfilled the dream? Thus we recompense the good-doers.

Now for the ransoming with a great sacrifice

And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
37107

Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin
37107

350 Fa-Dal-Ya

he gave a thing, ransom, purchase, he loosed him or set him free, mufadat - giving a man and taking a man in exchange, a collection.

Fa-Dal-Ya

perf. act. 37107
n.vb. 474
fidyah n.f. 2184, 2196, 5715

It is used in 37107 to mean ransom whereas in 474, 2184 it is used to mean ransom as well when it is actually different grammatically. Why?

It is a perfect action being used in 37107, an action being done/completed. In this case "He set him free".

Ayn-Za-Miim

mighty, glorious, a man of moment, All-mighty, All-glorious, grievous, bounty/abounding, magnify/increase.bone.

The word AAatheemin used in this ayat is an exaggerative adjective used to give an understanding that something will be great/terrible/grievous/might/momentous. The EXACT same word has been used to refer to J-Day many times throughout the Qur'an, in many different translations it is used as grievous or terrible. In some it is used as mighty/great. (759, 9101, 3174, 615, 7116, 1015, 1937, 26135, 26156, 26189, 2879, 3913, 4135, 4621, 684, 835). By using the next word in the ayat we can come to an understanding of what words are more suitable for description.

1357 Thal-Ba-Ha

to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.

Here it is used again. Let us look at the word

bithibhin is a masculine noun. so it will not be used as an action or an adjective in this ayat. It will. be used as the slaughtered one, or the slaughter, the throat cutting. The slaughter would indeed have been Grievous or terrible, because he was going to kill his own son which is against the guidance of God! So we use the exaggerative adjective grievous or terriblePutting it together we understand it to mean

And we loosed him/set him free from the grievous/terrible slaughter/throat cutting.
37107

This is what I have come to understand using StudyQuran.org and its links, several transliterations and translations and linguistic journals. The reason for this study is because I believe there is a contradiction in the belief that God gave Abraham the vision of slaughtering his Son with the whole of the Qur'an, including the fact that God mentions quite bluntly that neither the blood nor the meat of the slaughtered reaches God, but the piety of our hearts (2237). I understand the story to be that Abraham was tempted by the devil, the fallible MAN that he was, and was almost led astray. God intervened and asked him if he has fulfilled his vision (rhetorical) and from this action (as God does not normally intervene) Abraham was recompensed for the loss of having followed the vision. And then his son was set free accordingly from the grievous sacrifice. I hope this does not seem baseless/false as it did before. If you disagree, peace

All of those misunderstandings are corrected when you read the Torah in the Original language.

The misunderstandings come from having a puzzle in front of you. You are staring at one piece of the puzzle and asking what the picture is.
If you look at all the other pieces together with the piece you have You will see the whole picture.

Salam,
Arnab

[unknownuser]

Hi Arnab,

I do believe 100% in what I said previously.

The Saudi?s have been reading the quran in their mother language for the past 1400 years and been chopping people's hand, heads and other things off besides- so much for the ORIGINAL language.

Believe in your self and don't follow followers- do for others what you would have them do for you.

Thanks. peace

There are those have been twisting the language of the Quran believing in false hadiths and doing horrible things all in the name of God.

Do not compare the unrighteous to the studying of the Glorious Quran.

Salam,
Arnab

[Soof]

Peace

I thought the first 5 books of the Old Testament was the apparent Torah. The Tanakh is the Torah along with the Nevi'im. The Jewish Bible. Not the Torah.

No you are ignoring what I am saying. I am saying God does not err nor does he forget (2237) So he would NOT order Abraham to do something that is clearly against his teachings. Unless God forgot what He was saying. God says that the vision was a test as is EVERYTHING in life. That is what is directly in the Qur'an

How do you know that is what God meant by the word when it is used in other ways, when other translators fluent in Arabic use SLAUGHTER (as I have shown you)? This now sounds like your own opinion/understanding. Which I respect, but what makes you say that the interpretation as sacrifice is the correct one when there is NOTHING in the Qur'an that is pro-sacrifice at all, there is not even a context for you to say God uses sacrifices in this sense in the Qur'an so we can argue He can mean it here. God does not guide us to sacrifice. The only way to forgiveness is to mend our ways and repent. Not to sacrifice, so sacrifice being used in this parable is not true to the Qur'an. Abraham was going to Slaughter his son.

Satan can deceive you. In many ways that are beyond your knowledge. Note God does not say all the ways in which Satan can deceive. God gave satan leave to try and misguide human beings, BUT the obedient servants will not be misguided (hence why God intervened for Abraham). How can you say "sacrifice your son" is guidance to light when God tells us it is incorrect to sacrifice/kill/slaughter offspring? interesting.

"To be more specific The root ara is also used in 4029, 848, 1243, 1184, 843 And it refers to visions that Prophets had. I have not seen it used in a sense that was deceptive. In other words, I have not seen it used referring to "false" visions or "visions" from Shaitan."

You do know that the word Wafadaynahu is only used once in the Qur'an, does that also mean you have not seen it used to refer to ransom anywhere in the Qur'an? So how do you understand it then? Explicitly it is not said that the vision is from Satan, but because the vision is NOT akin with the Guidance of God AND God does not contradict/lead us to do evil/is evil then the vision must be from another source e.g a Shaytan.

"I would imagine the assumption is made that if you read the first verse it would lead you to the next and therefore there is no need to repeat the word."

What are you talking about? The point I was saying is several translations say SACRFICE, several say SLAUGHTER...why?

"Thats what made it a test.
Does he (Abraham) obey God unquestionably?
Does he bow COMPLETELY to his will?
Does he TRUST his Gods visions no matter what the commandment is?

Remember that by this time, Abraham was very used to having visions, revelations etc by God. So, he ABSOLUTELY knew that it was God telling him what to do in his vision.
The test, therefore, was would he do ANYTHING that God asked, even kill his own son.

The deed was never meant to be carried through

why do I say that? Because if God had meant for it to be carried through it would have happened."

Before all else, lets not forget Abraham was a MAN and he was FALLIBLE and susceptible to mistakes/misguidance as was Muhammad (who is even chastised in the Qur'an!). If Abraham obeyed the infallible God unquestionably, He would not be lead astray. God says if you turn to Him, you will be guided. If you turn away you will be lead astray. So why would God give Abraham incorrect guidance when he is devoted to Him? Through your points you are saying that God can change his ways and command evil, when He says specifically you will find no change in God's ways, he commands good, he urges all mankind and Jinn to strive for the Garden, therefore there would be no change in these righteous commands. 4823

"All of those misunderstandings are corrected when you read the Torah in the Original language.

The misunderstandings come from having a puzzle in front of you. You are staring at one piece of the puzzle and asking what the picture is.
If you look at all the other pieces together with the piece you have You will see the whole picture."

I cannot read the Torah because it has been corrupted, it is not even alleged by Jews to be the ORIGINAL from Moses' time. The original text of the Torah, as revealed to Moses had been destroyed at the time of the sack of Bait-ul-Maqdas (Jerusalem) in 6 BC during the Babylonian Era... Why should I read the Torah when the Qur'an is the DIFFERENTIATOR, it tells us what is fabrication and what is the Truth and it is also complete guidance for us now. Why should I read the Torah when the story of Abraham is in the Qur'an in sufficient detail, is the Qur'an not sufficient for those devoted to God anymore?

Peace

[unknownuser]

Peace

I thought the first 5 books of the Old Testament was the apparent Torah. The Tanakh is the Torah along with the Nevi'im. The Jewish Bible. Not the Torah.

Yes, but there are places where I refer to the WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT and others just the five books of Torah. Besides what does it matter the story is in Genesis which is included no matter any of the above names used.

No you are ignoring what I am saying. I am saying God does not err nor does he forget (2237) So he would NOT order Abraham to do something that is clearly against his teachings. Unless God forgot what He was saying. God says that the vision was a test as is EVERYTHING in life. That is what is directly in the Qur'an

I'm not ignoring you. No, God does not forget. But I already went in depth with this explaination.

How do you know that is what God meant by the word when it is used in other ways, when other translators fluent in Arabic use SLAUGHTER (as I have shown you)?

Use Slaughter or sacrafice. IT is the same thing. Why do I say that? Because a slaughter is to kill something. Does this apply? YES
A sacrafice is a killing for God. Does this apply? YES
Abraham recieved a vision from God as to what to slaughter.

This now sounds like your own opinion/understanding. Which I respect, but what makes you say that the interpretation as sacrifice is the correct one when there is NOTHING in the Qur'an that is pro-sacrifice at all, there is not even a context for you to say God uses sacrifices in this sense in the Qur'an so we can argue He can mean it here. God does not guide us to sacrifice. The only way to forgiveness is to mend our ways and repent. Not to sacrifice, so sacrifice being used in this parable is not true to the Qur'an. Abraham was going to Slaughter his son.

What is the problem with the word sacrafice? Use the word Kill/slaughter instead. It is the same meaning.

here is the definition of sacrifice

1 an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially the killing of a victim on an altar

2 something offered in sacrifice

3 a destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
b something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>

Satan can deceive you. In many ways that are beyond your knowledge. Note God does not say all the ways in which Satan can deceive. God gave satan leave to try and misguide human beings, BUT the obedient servants will not be misguided (hence why God intervened for Abraham). How can you say "sacrifice your son" is guidance to light when God tells us it is incorrect to sacrifice/kill/slaughter offspring? interesting.

I'm not saying that to sacrifice a child is a guidance towards light. Don't be ridiculous. I already explained that it was A TEST given specifically to ABRAHAM.

"To be more specific The root ara is also used in 4029, 848, 1243, 1184, 843 And it refers to visions that Prophets had. I have not seen it used in a sense that was deceptive. In other words, I have not seen it used referring to "false" visions or "visions" from Shaitan."

You do know that the word Wafadaynahu is only used once in the Qur'an, does that also mean you have not seen it used to refer to ransom anywhere in the Qur'an? So how do you understand it then?

Because I also understand Hebrew and Aramaic in addition to Arabic and the ROOT is the SAME in All three languages.

Explicitly it is not said that the vision is from Satan, but because the vision is NOT akin with the Guidance of God AND God does not contradict/lead us to do evil/is evil then the vision must be from another source e.g a Shaytan.

Again, it was a test....simply a test....

"I would imagine the assumption is made that if you read the first verse it would lead you to the next and therefore there is no need to repeat the word."

What are you talking about? The point I was saying is several translations say SACRFICE, several say SLAUGHTER...why?

So, now you are asking me to explain to you why different translators, whom I have never met are translating the word differently? How in the world can I answer that?

"That?s what made it a test.
Does he (Abraham) obey God unquestionably?
Does he bow COMPLETELY to his will?
Does he TRUST his God?s visions no matter what the commandment is?

Remember that by this time, Abraham was very used to having visions, revelations etc by God. So, he ABSOLUTELY knew that it was God telling him what to do in his vision.
The test, therefore, was would he do ANYTHING that God asked, even kill his own son.

The deed was never meant to be carried through

why do I say that? Because if God had meant for it to be carried through it would have happened."

Before all else, lets not forget Abraham was a MAN and he was FALLIBLE and susceptible to mistakes/misguidance as was Muhammad (who is even chastised in the Qur'an!).

Of course Abraham was just flesh and blood. I'm not trying to say otherwise.

If Abraham obeyed the infallible God unquestionably, He would not be lead astray. God says if you turn to Him, you will be guided. If you turn away you will be lead astray.

God Praises Abraham continuously and does not tell us that he was lead astray.....Quite the opposite.

So why would God give Abraham incorrect guidance when he is devoted to Him?

God was testing Abraham. He was not commanding evil. This was not incorrect guidance it was a test. brickwall

Through your points you are saying that God can change his ways and command evil, when He says specifically you will find no change in God's ways, he commands good, he urges all mankind and Jinn to strive for the Garden, therefore there would be no change in these righteous commands. 4823

I am absolutely NOT saying that God is changing his ways and commanding evil. NOT AT ALL.

it was a test given to Abraham. This is clear.

"All of those misunderstandings are corrected when you read the Torah in the Original language.

The misunderstandings come from having a puzzle in front of you. You are staring at one piece of the puzzle and asking what the picture is.
If you look at all the other pieces together with the piece you have You will see the whole picture."

I cannot read the Torah because it has been corrupted, it is not even alleged by Jews to be the ORIGINAL from Moses' time. The original text of the Torah, as revealed to Moses had been destroyed at the time of the sack of Bait-ul-Maqdas (Jerusalem) in 6 BC during the Babylonian Era... Why should I read the Torah when the Qur'an is the DIFFERENTIATOR, it tells us what is fabrication and what is the Truth and it is also complete guidance for us now. Why should I read the Torah when the story of Abraham is in the Qur'an in sufficient detail, is the Qur'an not sufficient for those devoted to God anymore?

Then you disbelieve in all the verses that say to follow the Torah. Fine. You've said that.

But, you are not even believing in the Quran when IT CLEARLY says these things

1. Abraham recieved a VISION to slaughter his son (and visions are from Allah)

2. That it was a TEST from ALLAH

Salam,
Arnab

[huruf]

One explanation I have read of the "sacrifice" and which is supported by the bible is that Abraham had a profetic dream in which he was told that he would have to "sacrifice" his son Ismael, which according to the Bible que he did sacrifice, since he left him with his mother in the desert. The dream was meant to reassure Him that God would take care ofthe mother and the child.

On a more symbolical level, we are all told to sacrifice our children, that is our own figments and ideas of reality to God, let go of them and love and cherish and bring up only his consciousness and what He tells us is that upon doing so we well discover that in fact that there is no loss, that what we sacrificed finally was nothingness, all that is real reamins with us.

Salaam

[farida]

The Quran is a guidance and a mercy. It corrects mis-conceptions, reminds, discriminates between truth and falsehood and many other things. If we didn?t have the Quran we may be following Hadith, Talmud, writings of Paul and many other misguidances.
The Quran tells us what is TRUTH and what is falsehood.

We have the real Quran as well and yet many of our brethren are still following hadith, and worshipping Muhammad instead of God.

There are those who call themselves Muslim but do the most Horrible things that they were never commanded to do.
Just the same as there were those who called themselves beni Israel then and did the most horrible things.

Salam,
Arnab

Salaam Arnab

I am so pleased to read the valuable contributions from you, In the Quran important misconceptions, like clearing Eve of responsibility for Adam's sin and rebutting the lies about Jesus. However if its not mentioned which of Abraham's sons was to be sacrifised than maybe it is to avoid discriminations between two prophets and its not important just as it was not important how many the occupants of the cave were.

2106 Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
I came across the verse below this morning and wondered what it actually meant but reading this discussion the mist cleared.

peace

[unknownuser]

Salaams Arnab,

Abraham received a vision from God as to what to slaughter.

What vision?

The following Ayah has been changed in the present day quran ? check out the Uzbekistan quran!!! I gave you a link already.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913

37103
Wa Ma Aslama ??..? And not he submitted??..

The test or trial- read the following Ayah.
249
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

Abraham refused to carry out the orders of a tyrant (37103) ? so Abraham passes the test.

Moses was thus saved ???.and ransomed by God with a most pleasant, educational 30 years in the tyrants own backyard.

The quran is indeed clearing up the falsehood but has been misunderstood- I believe.

(My thought)
Thus Abraham Opposes Infanticide ? the slaughtering of infants ? but Moses will bring the subject up when he is fully grown and ask the tyrant, did you really do such a heinous act?

Good hunting to you.

[dc2]

here is a video of a jewish person's analysis of the jewish text referring to this debate...some good points.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BAwVgaip34&feature=related

[unknownuser]

Salaams Arnab,

What vision?

The following Ayah has been changed in the present day quran ? check out the Uzbekistan quran!!! I gave you a link already.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913

37103
Wa Ma Aslama ??..? And not he submitted??..

The test or trial- read the following Ayah.
249
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

Abraham refused to carry out the orders of a tyrant (37103) ? so Abraham passes the test.

Moses was thus saved ???.and ransomed by God with a most pleasant, educational 30 years in the tyrants own backyard.

The quran is indeed clearing up the falsehood but has been misunderstood- I believe.

(My thought)
Thus Abraham Opposes Infanticide ? the slaughtering of infants ? but Moses will bring the subject up when he is fully grown and ask the tyrant, did you really do such a heinous act?

Good hunting to you.

Simple....thats ridiculous.

Salam,
Arnab

[unknownuser]

However if its not mentioned which of Abraham's sons was to be sacrifised than maybe it is to avoid discriminations between two prophets and its not important just as it was not important how many the occupants of the cave were.

Salam,

Here's an example.....lets say that someone writes a book Called "Cinderella Three" and its a continuation of the Life of Cinderella.

In this book the author writes

"Remember when Cinderella lost her shoe on the stairs.
Before the hour struck.
If she did not return she would be exposed......"

Let's say nothing else is said about the original Cinderella story in the book "Cinderella Three" except these lines.

If we did not read the Original story of Cinderella we would not know

Why Cinderella lost her shoe or Where she was when she lost her shoe. Or even if the shoe is important to the story or not.

Which hour it was or if it was day or night.

Or what was meant by the phrase "if she did not return she would be exposed."

Was she a thief, in danger of being exposed to the police? Where was she going to return to?

The phrases were only meant to remind you of the story in order to make a point about something.

Same thing as in the Quran. The Quran ASSUMES you've read previous scripture. (the Quran states this continuously)

2106 Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
I came across the verse below this morning and wondered what it actually meant but reading this discussion the mist cleared

But the Previous scripture is not Abrogated or Forgotten.....apparently, though, it seems to be ignored.

Salam,
Arnab