Who did Prophet Ibraham tried to sacrifice, Ismael or Isacc, according to Quran?
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Yes, the first book of the Torah.
You believe this is part of the earlier revelation?
http//nasb.scripturetext.com/judges/19.htm
22 While they were celebrating, behold, the men of the city, certain worthless fellows, surrounded the house, pounding the door; and they spoke to the owner of the house, the old man, saying, ?Bring out the man who came into your house that we may have relations with him.? 23 Then the man, the owner of the house, went out to them and said to them, ?No, my fellows, please do not act so wickedly; since this man has come into my house, do not commit this act of folly. 24 ?Here is my virgin daughter and his concubine. Please let me bring them out that you may ravish them and do to them whatever you wish. But do not commit such an act of folly against this man.? 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and brought her out to them; and they raped her and abused her all night until morning, then let her go at the approach of dawn. 26 As the day began to dawn, the woman came and fell down at the doorway of the man?s house where her master was, until full daylight.
27 When her master arose in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, then behold, his concubine was lying at the doorway of the house with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, ?Get up and let us go,? but there was no answer. Then he placed her on the donkey; and the man arose and went to his home. 29 When he entered his house, he took a knife and laid hold of his concubine and cut her in twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent her throughout the territory of Israel. 30 All who saw it said, ?Nothing like this has ever happened or been seen from the day when the sons of Israel came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Consider it, take counsel and speak up!?You forgot to add the next verses which clearly identify that the people being referred to in the above verses are those saying he was a JEW and some are saying he was a CHRISTIAN
The Tanakh, the Injeel and the Quran are all revelations of Allah and we are not to make differences therein.
If they had the real Torah and Injeel (not pieces) why were they informed of this?
Why Quran to set things straight?
Peace
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Hi Arnab,
You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revelation.
I do believe 100% in what I said previously.
The Saudi?s have been reading the quran in their mother language for the past 1400 years and been chopping people's hand, heads and other things off besides- so much for the ORIGINAL language.
Believe in your self and don't follow followers- do for others what you would have them do for you.
Thanks. peace
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Peace Arnab
When was the Tanakh first revealed? are you trying to tell me the Tanakh is another revelation from Moses as well?
Yes I agree that the stories of Christ are retold in the Qur'an, but I disagree when you say there is an Injeel of Christ that we can pick up and read (at the moment)Now on to the debate of Abraham, this is the guidance from God that we follow regarding our offspring
Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah hath provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance.
6140Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners" made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so But leave alone them and their inventions.
6137Why would God say these things in the Qur'an and then order Abraham to slaughter his Son? I am not arguing with God about his words because the english translation of the Qur'an is not the Qur'an. It is a translation where errors can creep in unawares. When we are given something from ANYONE on Earth we must verify it using our senses and brains, if I come to a different understanding than you, that does not mean what I am saying is false, it is my understanding, only God knows the true meaning, not you. My belief in the God and the cornerstones of the Qur'an does not change so you should not treat me as a person trying to dismember God's scripture. I am only coming of understanding, like you.
Ok lets get to work muscle, I hope you will read through
Thal-Ba-Ha
to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.dhabaha vb. (I)perf. act. 271impf. act. 267, 2721, 37102perf. pass. 53
Why is sacrifice used specifically in 37102?
Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said "O my father! Do as thou art commanded thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
37102Note Abraham does not say I gained a revelation from God. There is nothing in the statement of Abraham to tell you it is from God! All he says is he has a vision, how many people of modern day have visions that they claim is from God? What makes you believe this vision is from God and not the Devil? and note this translation does not even use sacrifice
And when he attained the age of, running with him, he said O my son! verily I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering thee; so look, what considerest thou? He said O my father! do that which thou art commanded; thou shalt find me, Allah willing, of the patients.
37102So why is sacrifice used in one but not the other, why is sacrifice so important when there is no need for it anywhere in the Qur'an? Why os sacrifice used elsewhere for killing animals, when it is slaughter (BECAUSE OF 2237).. interesting.
Now we are understand that God said "thou hast confirmed the vision; thus We recompense the good-doers." But the vision was the actual SLAUGHTER of his son, the son is not dead yet, so how can the vision be confirmed? Lets look at 37105 in more depth
37105 Of a surety thou hast fulfilled the vision. Verily We! thus We recompense the well-doers.
105 Qad saddaqta alrruya inna kathalika najzee almuhsineena
Qad is a particle that can be used with the perfective verb for emphasis, priority, as a result of something and expected information. For reference please look at this link http//books.google.co.uk/books?id=NYPnI8_LpZQC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=qad+particle+emphasis&source=web&ots=D6aaxleeEi&sig=fAV09pJVnObvEtJhJn54bpZc-ME&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result
saddaqta (prf. 2nd, p.m. sing. II.) Thou fulfilled.
Together with Qad it can mean Thou Hast fulfilled the Dream, Verily!
Hast Thou Filled the Dream?
You were going to fulfill the dream!Now for the reward/recompense part. More than 5 of the main translations use recompense, not reward. Why would God reward Abraham for fulfilling a vision that did not come from Him? Now what does recompense mean
the act of compensating for service or loss or injury
amends made, as for damage or lossAbraham was in the midst of a mighty test, which he was about to fail, being a good-doer and a close friend of God, God stopped him from acting out the vision sent to him from a non-Godly source (USING THE UNDERSTANDING THAT GOD DOES NOT ORDER US TO KILL OUR CHILDREN, HE DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF 2052). By stopping Abraham from killing his Son He recompensed Abraham.
So my understanding from going straight to the source and not the translation is
Hast thou fulfilled the dream? Thus we recompense the good-doers.
Now for the ransoming with a great sacrifice
And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
37107Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin
37107350 Fa-Dal-Ya
he gave a thing, ransom, purchase, he loosed him or set him free, mufadat - giving a man and taking a man in exchange, a collection.
Fa-Dal-Ya
perf. act. 37107
n.vb. 474
fidyah n.f. 2184, 2196, 5715It is used in 37107 to mean ransom whereas in 474, 2184 it is used to mean ransom as well when it is actually different grammatically. Why?
It is a perfect action being used in 37107, an action being done/completed. In this case "He set him free".
Ayn-Za-Miim
mighty, glorious, a man of moment, All-mighty, All-glorious, grievous, bounty/abounding, magnify/increase.bone.
The word AAatheemin used in this ayat is an exaggerative adjective used to give an understanding that something will be great/terrible/grievous/might/momentous. The EXACT same word has been used to refer to J-Day many times throughout the Qur'an, in many different translations it is used as grievous or terrible. In some it is used as mighty/great. (759, 9101, 3174, 615, 7116, 1015, 1937, 26135, 26156, 26189, 2879, 3913, 4135, 4621, 684, 835). By using the next word in the ayat we can come to an understanding of what words are more suitable for description.
1357 Thal-Ba-Ha
to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.
Here it is used again. Let us look at the word
bithibhin is a masculine noun. so it will not be used as an action or an adjective in this ayat. It will. be used as the slaughtered one, or the slaughter, the throat cutting. The slaughter would indeed have been Grievous or terrible, because he was going to kill his own son which is against the guidance of God! So we use the exaggerative adjective grievous or terriblePutting it together we understand it to mean
And we loosed him/set him free from the grievous/terrible slaughter/throat cutting.
37107This is what I have come to understand using StudyQuran.org and its links, several transliterations and translations and linguistic journals. The reason for this study is because I believe there is a contradiction in the belief that God gave Abraham the vision of slaughtering his Son with the whole of the Qur'an, including the fact that God mentions quite bluntly that neither the blood nor the meat of the slaughtered reaches God, but the piety of our hearts (2237). I understand the story to be that Abraham was tempted by the devil, the fallible MAN that he was, and was almost led astray. God intervened and asked him if he has fulfilled his vision (rhetorical) and from this action (as God does not normally intervene) Abraham was recompensed for the loss of having followed the vision. And then his son was set free accordingly from the grievous sacrifice. I hope this does not seem baseless/false as it did before. If you disagree, peace
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Hi Arnab,
I do believe 100% in what I said previously.
The Saudi?s have been reading the quran in their mother language for the past 1400 years and been chopping people's hand, heads and other things off besides- so much for the ORIGINAL language.
Believe in your self and don't follow followers- do for others what you would have them do for you.
Thanks. peace
Agreed
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Peace Soof,
How do you read/understand this verse?
37103 Falamma aslama watallahu liljabeeni
So when they submitted and he pulled/pushed/followed him to the foreheads.Also, who does ?him? refer to below?
37107 Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin
And We substituted him with a great slaughtered.37108 Watarakna AAalayhi fee al-akhireena
And We left on him in the others/lasts.37108 Salamun AAala ibraheema
Peace upon Abraham. -
peace Nun de plume
I believe him in this case is his Son. I do not think it is Isaac because God refers to him in 37112 straight after, which leads me to believe it is a new topic and the previous "vision" story is about another son - "We gave Abraham the good news of Isaac"; Earlier God says "so We gave him the good news that he would have a patient son" referring to a different son that grows up and is taken for a mighty test with Abraham. It may well be Ishmael.
Peace
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You believe this is part of the earlier revelation?
http//nasb.scripturetext.com/judges/19.htm
22 While they were celebrating, behold, the men of the city, certain worthless fellows, surrounded the house, pounding the door; and they spoke to the owner of the house, the old man, saying, ?Bring out the man who came into your house that we may have relations with him.? 23 Then the man, the owner of the house, went out to them and said to them, ?No, my fellows, please do not act so wickedly; since this man has come into my house, do not commit this act of folly. 24 ?Here is my virgin daughter and his concubine. Please let me bring them out that you may ravish them and do to them whatever you wish. But do not commit such an act of folly against this man.? 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine and brought her out to them; and they raped her and abused her all night until morning, then let her go at the approach of dawn. 26 As the day began to dawn, the woman came and fell down at the doorway of the man?s house where her master was, until full daylight.
27 When her master arose in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, then behold, his concubine was lying at the doorway of the house with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, ?Get up and let us go,? but there was no answer. Then he placed her on the donkey; and the man arose and went to his home. 29 When he entered his house, he took a knife and laid hold of his concubine and cut her in twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent her throughout the territory of Israel. 30 All who saw it said, ?Nothing like this has ever happened or been seen from the day when the sons of Israel came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Consider it, take counsel and speak up!?Yes, I believe every word of it took place.
This is a record of what was happening at that time. Notice there is no commandments being given in these verses.
These are deeds and happenings that took place at that time.
It is no wonder that Prophets and messengers and wise ones spoke out about a portion of the Children of Isreal and their wicked deeds. They acted in a way that they were never commanded to act. Many times flat out ignoring the Torah.
All through the scriptures we read about how a portion of the children of Isreal turned away from God and his Commandments.
These passages should be no surprise.
They should also help you understand how the revelations that came to David, Isa, Muhammad and others were verses were God spoke about their disobedience.
There are many other atrocious deeds that we are told about in scripture.
They are not commandments as to what to do.
They are not examples of how to act.
They are examples how NOT to act.
And also an example of how horribly disobedient a portion of the beni Israel became. And it gives you an understanding of WHY so many other PROPHETS were sent afterwards to later generations.
If they had the real Torah and Injeel (not pieces) why were they informed of this?
They were warned over and over. Surely you have read this in the Quran at least.
They followed Talmud (the Jewish form of Hadith), their so called ?rabis? and scholars.
They started following their low desires and disregarding the words of God.
They were going astray! Not all of them, of course, but large numbers.Why Quran to set things straight?
Quite simply It was needed for many reasons. One reason, is to show us what is real scripture.
The Quran is a guidance and a mercy. It corrects mis-conceptions, reminds, discriminates between truth and falsehood and many other things. If we didn?t have the Quran we may be following Hadith, Talmud, writings of Paul and many other misguidances.
The Quran tells us what is TRUTH and what is falsehood.If they had the real Torah and Injeel (not pieces) why were they informed of this?
Why Quran to set things straight?We have the real Quran as well and yet many of our brethren are still following hadith, and worshipping Muhammad instead of God.
There are those who call themselves Muslim but do the most Horrible things that they were never commanded to do.
Just the same as there were those who called themselves beni Israel then and did the most horrible things.Salam,
Arnab -
Peace Arnab
When was the Tanakh first revealed? are you trying to tell me the Tanakh is another revelation from Moses as well?
The Tanakh is another name for the old testament.
The Torah is also called the five books of Moses and is the first five books of the old testament.
I am not talking about anything new. I just used a different name to refer to the same thing.
Now on to the debate of Abraham, this is the guidance from God that we follow regarding our offspring
Lost are those who slay their children, from folly, without knowledge, and forbid food which Allah hath provided for them, inventing (lies) against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and heeded no guidance.
6140Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners" made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so But leave alone them and their inventions.
6137Why would God say these things in the Qur'an and then order Abraham to slaughter his Son?
It was a test. This is said DIRECTLY in the QURAN.
I am not arguing with God about his words because the english translation of the Qur'an is not the Qur'an. It is a translation where errors can creep in unawares.
I read the Quran in ARABIC. I've said this many times.
We are discussing the Arabic verses using the English lanugage.
Ok lets get to work muscle, I hope you will read through
Thal-Ba-Ha
to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.dhabaha vb. (I)perf. act. 271impf. act. 267, 2721, 37102perf. pass. 53
Why is sacrifice used specifically in 37102?
Because that is what is meant. The word was chosen because GOD meant to use that word.
Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said "O my father! Do as thou art commanded thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
37102Note Abraham does not say I gained a revelation from God. There is nothing in the statement of Abraham to tell you it is from God! All he says is he has a vision, how many people of modern day have visions that they claim is from God? What makes you believe this vision is from God and not the Devil? and note this translation does not even use sacrifice
Because visions are from God.Shaitan cannot give you vision. He brings one to darkness (where we cannot see) out of light. God brings us to light (where we can see) out of darkness.
To be more specific The root ara is also used in 4029, 848, 1243, 1184, 843 And it refers to visions that Prophets had. I have not seen it used in a sense that was deceptive. In other words, I have not seen it used referring to "false" visions or "visions" from Shaitan.
And when he attained the age of, running with him, he said O my son! verily I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering thee; so look, what considerest thou? He said O my father! do that which thou art commanded; thou shalt find me, Allah willing, of the patients.
37102So why is sacrifice used in one but not the other, why is sacrifice so important when there is no need for it anywhere in the Qur'an?
I would imagine the assumption is made that if you read the first verse it would lead you to the next and therefore there is no need to repeat the word.
Why os sacrifice used elsewhere for killing animals, when it is slaughter (BECAUSE OF 2237).. interesting. Now we are understand that God said "thou hast confirmed the vision; thus We recompense the good-doers." But the vision was the actual SLAUGHTER of his son, the son is not dead yet, so how can the vision be confirmed?
That?s what made it a test.
Does he (Abraham) obey God unquestionably?
Does he bow COMPLETELY to his will?
Does he TRUST his God?s visions no matter what the commandment is?Remember that by this time, Abraham was very used to having visions, revelations etc by God. So, he ABSOLUTELY knew that it was God telling him what to do in his vision.
The test, therefore, was would he do ANYTHING that God asked, even kill his own son.The deed was never meant to be carried through
why do I say that? Because if God had meant for it to be carried through it would have happened.
Now for the reward/recompense part. More than 5 of the main translations use recompense, not reward. Why would God reward Abraham for fulfilling a vision that did not come from Him? Now what does recompense mean
the act of compensating for service or loss or injury
amends made, as for damage or lossAbraham was in the midst of a mighty test, which he was about to fail, being a good-doer and a close friend of God, God stopped him from acting out the vision sent to him from a non-Godly source (USING THE UNDERSTANDING THAT GOD DOES NOT ORDER US TO KILL OUR CHILDREN, HE DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF 2052). By stopping Abraham from killing his Son He recompensed Abraham.
So my understanding from going straight to the source and not the translation is
Hast thou fulfilled the dream? Thus we recompense the good-doers.
Now for the ransoming with a great sacrifice
And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
37107Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin
37107350 Fa-Dal-Ya
he gave a thing, ransom, purchase, he loosed him or set him free, mufadat - giving a man and taking a man in exchange, a collection.
Fa-Dal-Ya
perf. act. 37107
n.vb. 474
fidyah n.f. 2184, 2196, 5715It is used in 37107 to mean ransom whereas in 474, 2184 it is used to mean ransom as well when it is actually different grammatically. Why?
It is a perfect action being used in 37107, an action being done/completed. In this case "He set him free".
Ayn-Za-Miim
mighty, glorious, a man of moment, All-mighty, All-glorious, grievous, bounty/abounding, magnify/increase.bone.
The word AAatheemin used in this ayat is an exaggerative adjective used to give an understanding that something will be great/terrible/grievous/might/momentous. The EXACT same word has been used to refer to J-Day many times throughout the Qur'an, in many different translations it is used as grievous or terrible. In some it is used as mighty/great. (759, 9101, 3174, 615, 7116, 1015, 1937, 26135, 26156, 26189, 2879, 3913, 4135, 4621, 684, 835). By using the next word in the ayat we can come to an understanding of what words are more suitable for description.
1357 Thal-Ba-Ha
to split/rip, cut the throat, stay, sacrifice, rip open, trench, to slaughter/massacre, slay in large number, that which is sacrificed, victim, slaughtered one.
Here it is used again. Let us look at the word
bithibhin is a masculine noun. so it will not be used as an action or an adjective in this ayat. It will. be used as the slaughtered one, or the slaughter, the throat cutting. The slaughter would indeed have been Grievous or terrible, because he was going to kill his own son which is against the guidance of God! So we use the exaggerative adjective grievous or terriblePutting it together we understand it to mean
And we loosed him/set him free from the grievous/terrible slaughter/throat cutting.
37107This is what I have come to understand using StudyQuran.org and its links, several transliterations and translations and linguistic journals. The reason for this study is because I believe there is a contradiction in the belief that God gave Abraham the vision of slaughtering his Son with the whole of the Qur'an, including the fact that God mentions quite bluntly that neither the blood nor the meat of the slaughtered reaches God, but the piety of our hearts (2237). I understand the story to be that Abraham was tempted by the devil, the fallible MAN that he was, and was almost led astray. God intervened and asked him if he has fulfilled his vision (rhetorical) and from this action (as God does not normally intervene) Abraham was recompensed for the loss of having followed the vision. And then his son was set free accordingly from the grievous sacrifice. I hope this does not seem baseless/false as it did before. If you disagree, peace
All of those misunderstandings are corrected when you read the Torah in the Original language.
The misunderstandings come from having a puzzle in front of you. You are staring at one piece of the puzzle and asking what the picture is.
If you look at all the other pieces together with the piece you have You will see the whole picture.Salam,
Arnab -
Hi Arnab,
I do believe 100% in what I said previously.
The Saudi?s have been reading the quran in their mother language for the past 1400 years and been chopping people's hand, heads and other things off besides- so much for the ORIGINAL language.
Believe in your self and don't follow followers- do for others what you would have them do for you.
Thanks. peace
There are those have been twisting the language of the Quran believing in false hadiths and doing horrible things all in the name of God.
Do not compare the unrighteous to the studying of the Glorious Quran.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace
I thought the first 5 books of the Old Testament was the apparent Torah. The Tanakh is the Torah along with the Nevi'im. The Jewish Bible. Not the Torah.
No you are ignoring what I am saying. I am saying God does not err nor does he forget (2237) So he would NOT order Abraham to do something that is clearly against his teachings. Unless God forgot what He was saying. God says that the vision was a test as is EVERYTHING in life. That is what is directly in the Qur'an
How do you know that is what God meant by the word when it is used in other ways, when other translators fluent in Arabic use SLAUGHTER (as I have shown you)? This now sounds like your own opinion/understanding. Which I respect, but what makes you say that the interpretation as sacrifice is the correct one when there is NOTHING in the Qur'an that is pro-sacrifice at all, there is not even a context for you to say God uses sacrifices in this sense in the Qur'an so we can argue He can mean it here. God does not guide us to sacrifice. The only way to forgiveness is to mend our ways and repent. Not to sacrifice, so sacrifice being used in this parable is not true to the Qur'an. Abraham was going to Slaughter his son.
Satan can deceive you. In many ways that are beyond your knowledge. Note God does not say all the ways in which Satan can deceive. God gave satan leave to try and misguide human beings, BUT the obedient servants will not be misguided (hence why God intervened for Abraham). How can you say "sacrifice your son" is guidance to light when God tells us it is incorrect to sacrifice/kill/slaughter offspring? interesting.
"To be more specific The root ara is also used in 4029, 848, 1243, 1184, 843 And it refers to visions that Prophets had. I have not seen it used in a sense that was deceptive. In other words, I have not seen it used referring to "false" visions or "visions" from Shaitan."
You do know that the word Wafadaynahu is only used once in the Qur'an, does that also mean you have not seen it used to refer to ransom anywhere in the Qur'an? So how do you understand it then? Explicitly it is not said that the vision is from Satan, but because the vision is NOT akin with the Guidance of God AND God does not contradict/lead us to do evil/is evil then the vision must be from another source e.g a Shaytan.
"I would imagine the assumption is made that if you read the first verse it would lead you to the next and therefore there is no need to repeat the word."
What are you talking about? The point I was saying is several translations say SACRFICE, several say SLAUGHTER...why?
"Thats what made it a test.
Does he (Abraham) obey God unquestionably?
Does he bow COMPLETELY to his will?
Does he TRUST his Gods visions no matter what the commandment is?Remember that by this time, Abraham was very used to having visions, revelations etc by God. So, he ABSOLUTELY knew that it was God telling him what to do in his vision.
The test, therefore, was would he do ANYTHING that God asked, even kill his own son.The deed was never meant to be carried through
why do I say that? Because if God had meant for it to be carried through it would have happened."
Before all else, lets not forget Abraham was a MAN and he was FALLIBLE and susceptible to mistakes/misguidance as was Muhammad (who is even chastised in the Qur'an!). If Abraham obeyed the infallible God unquestionably, He would not be lead astray. God says if you turn to Him, you will be guided. If you turn away you will be lead astray. So why would God give Abraham incorrect guidance when he is devoted to Him? Through your points you are saying that God can change his ways and command evil, when He says specifically you will find no change in God's ways, he commands good, he urges all mankind and Jinn to strive for the Garden, therefore there would be no change in these righteous commands. 4823
"All of those misunderstandings are corrected when you read the Torah in the Original language.
The misunderstandings come from having a puzzle in front of you. You are staring at one piece of the puzzle and asking what the picture is.
If you look at all the other pieces together with the piece you have You will see the whole picture."I cannot read the Torah because it has been corrupted, it is not even alleged by Jews to be the ORIGINAL from Moses' time. The original text of the Torah, as revealed to Moses had been destroyed at the time of the sack of Bait-ul-Maqdas (Jerusalem) in 6 BC during the Babylonian Era... Why should I read the Torah when the Qur'an is the DIFFERENTIATOR, it tells us what is fabrication and what is the Truth and it is also complete guidance for us now. Why should I read the Torah when the story of Abraham is in the Qur'an in sufficient detail, is the Qur'an not sufficient for those devoted to God anymore?
Peace
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Peace
I thought the first 5 books of the Old Testament was the apparent Torah. The Tanakh is the Torah along with the Nevi'im. The Jewish Bible. Not the Torah.
Yes, but there are places where I refer to the WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT and others just the five books of Torah. Besides what does it matter the story is in Genesis which is included no matter any of the above names used.
No you are ignoring what I am saying. I am saying God does not err nor does he forget (2237) So he would NOT order Abraham to do something that is clearly against his teachings. Unless God forgot what He was saying. God says that the vision was a test as is EVERYTHING in life. That is what is directly in the Qur'an
I'm not ignoring you. No, God does not forget. But I already went in depth with this explaination.
How do you know that is what God meant by the word when it is used in other ways, when other translators fluent in Arabic use SLAUGHTER (as I have shown you)?
Use Slaughter or sacrafice. IT is the same thing. Why do I say that? Because a slaughter is to kill something. Does this apply? YES
A sacrafice is a killing for God. Does this apply? YES
Abraham recieved a vision from God as to what to slaughter.This now sounds like your own opinion/understanding. Which I respect, but what makes you say that the interpretation as sacrifice is the correct one when there is NOTHING in the Qur'an that is pro-sacrifice at all, there is not even a context for you to say God uses sacrifices in this sense in the Qur'an so we can argue He can mean it here. God does not guide us to sacrifice. The only way to forgiveness is to mend our ways and repent. Not to sacrifice, so sacrifice being used in this parable is not true to the Qur'an. Abraham was going to Slaughter his son.
What is the problem with the word sacrafice? Use the word Kill/slaughter instead. It is the same meaning.
here is the definition of sacrifice
1 an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially the killing of a victim on an altar
2 something offered in sacrifice
3 a destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
b something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>Satan can deceive you. In many ways that are beyond your knowledge. Note God does not say all the ways in which Satan can deceive. God gave satan leave to try and misguide human beings, BUT the obedient servants will not be misguided (hence why God intervened for Abraham). How can you say "sacrifice your son" is guidance to light when God tells us it is incorrect to sacrifice/kill/slaughter offspring? interesting.
I'm not saying that to sacrifice a child is a guidance towards light. Don't be ridiculous. I already explained that it was A TEST given specifically to ABRAHAM.
"To be more specific The root ara is also used in 4029, 848, 1243, 1184, 843 And it refers to visions that Prophets had. I have not seen it used in a sense that was deceptive. In other words, I have not seen it used referring to "false" visions or "visions" from Shaitan."
You do know that the word Wafadaynahu is only used once in the Qur'an, does that also mean you have not seen it used to refer to ransom anywhere in the Qur'an? So how do you understand it then?
Because I also understand Hebrew and Aramaic in addition to Arabic and the ROOT is the SAME in All three languages.
Explicitly it is not said that the vision is from Satan, but because the vision is NOT akin with the Guidance of God AND God does not contradict/lead us to do evil/is evil then the vision must be from another source e.g a Shaytan.
Again, it was a test....simply a test....
"I would imagine the assumption is made that if you read the first verse it would lead you to the next and therefore there is no need to repeat the word."
What are you talking about? The point I was saying is several translations say SACRFICE, several say SLAUGHTER...why?
So, now you are asking me to explain to you why different translators, whom I have never met are translating the word differently? How in the world can I answer that?
"That?s what made it a test.
Does he (Abraham) obey God unquestionably?
Does he bow COMPLETELY to his will?
Does he TRUST his God?s visions no matter what the commandment is?Remember that by this time, Abraham was very used to having visions, revelations etc by God. So, he ABSOLUTELY knew that it was God telling him what to do in his vision.
The test, therefore, was would he do ANYTHING that God asked, even kill his own son.The deed was never meant to be carried through
why do I say that? Because if God had meant for it to be carried through it would have happened."
Before all else, lets not forget Abraham was a MAN and he was FALLIBLE and susceptible to mistakes/misguidance as was Muhammad (who is even chastised in the Qur'an!).
Of course Abraham was just flesh and blood. I'm not trying to say otherwise.
If Abraham obeyed the infallible God unquestionably, He would not be lead astray. God says if you turn to Him, you will be guided. If you turn away you will be lead astray.
God Praises Abraham continuously and does not tell us that he was lead astray.....Quite the opposite.
So why would God give Abraham incorrect guidance when he is devoted to Him?
God was testing Abraham. He was not commanding evil. This was not incorrect guidance it was a test. brickwall
Through your points you are saying that God can change his ways and command evil, when He says specifically you will find no change in God's ways, he commands good, he urges all mankind and Jinn to strive for the Garden, therefore there would be no change in these righteous commands. 4823
I am absolutely NOT saying that God is changing his ways and commanding evil. NOT AT ALL.
it was a test given to Abraham. This is clear.
"All of those misunderstandings are corrected when you read the Torah in the Original language.
The misunderstandings come from having a puzzle in front of you. You are staring at one piece of the puzzle and asking what the picture is.
If you look at all the other pieces together with the piece you have You will see the whole picture."I cannot read the Torah because it has been corrupted, it is not even alleged by Jews to be the ORIGINAL from Moses' time. The original text of the Torah, as revealed to Moses had been destroyed at the time of the sack of Bait-ul-Maqdas (Jerusalem) in 6 BC during the Babylonian Era... Why should I read the Torah when the Qur'an is the DIFFERENTIATOR, it tells us what is fabrication and what is the Truth and it is also complete guidance for us now. Why should I read the Torah when the story of Abraham is in the Qur'an in sufficient detail, is the Qur'an not sufficient for those devoted to God anymore?
Then you disbelieve in all the verses that say to follow the Torah. Fine. You've said that.
But, you are not even believing in the Quran when IT CLEARLY says these things
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Abraham recieved a VISION to slaughter his son (and visions are from Allah)
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That it was a TEST from ALLAH
Salam,
Arnab -
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One explanation I have read of the "sacrifice" and which is supported by the bible is that Abraham had a profetic dream in which he was told that he would have to "sacrifice" his son Ismael, which according to the Bible que he did sacrifice, since he left him with his mother in the desert. The dream was meant to reassure Him that God would take care ofthe mother and the child.
On a more symbolical level, we are all told to sacrifice our children, that is our own figments and ideas of reality to God, let go of them and love and cherish and bring up only his consciousness and what He tells us is that upon doing so we well discover that in fact that there is no loss, that what we sacrificed finally was nothingness, all that is real reamins with us.
Salaam
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The Quran is a guidance and a mercy. It corrects mis-conceptions, reminds, discriminates between truth and falsehood and many other things. If we didn?t have the Quran we may be following Hadith, Talmud, writings of Paul and many other misguidances.
The Quran tells us what is TRUTH and what is falsehood.We have the real Quran as well and yet many of our brethren are still following hadith, and worshipping Muhammad instead of God.
There are those who call themselves Muslim but do the most Horrible things that they were never commanded to do.
Just the same as there were those who called themselves beni Israel then and did the most horrible things.Salam,
ArnabSalaam Arnab
I am so pleased to read the valuable contributions from you, In the Quran important misconceptions, like clearing Eve of responsibility for Adam's sin and rebutting the lies about Jesus. However if its not mentioned which of Abraham's sons was to be sacrifised than maybe it is to avoid discriminations between two prophets and its not important just as it was not important how many the occupants of the cave were.
2106 Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
I came across the verse below this morning and wondered what it actually meant but reading this discussion the mist cleared.peace
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Salaams Arnab,
Abraham received a vision from God as to what to slaughter.
What vision?
The following Ayah has been changed in the present day quran ? check out the Uzbekistan quran!!! I gave you a link already.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913
37103
Wa Ma Aslama ??..? And not he submitted??..The test or trial- read the following Ayah.
249
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.Abraham refused to carry out the orders of a tyrant (37103) ? so Abraham passes the test.
Moses was thus saved ???.and ransomed by God with a most pleasant, educational 30 years in the tyrants own backyard.
The quran is indeed clearing up the falsehood but has been misunderstood- I believe.
(My thought)
Thus Abraham Opposes Infanticide ? the slaughtering of infants ? but Moses will bring the subject up when he is fully grown and ask the tyrant, did you really do such a heinous act?Good hunting to you.
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Salaams Arnab,
What vision?
The following Ayah has been changed in the present day quran ? check out the Uzbekistan quran!!! I gave you a link already.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913
37103
Wa Ma Aslama ??..? And not he submitted??..The test or trial- read the following Ayah.
249
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.Abraham refused to carry out the orders of a tyrant (37103) ? so Abraham passes the test.
Moses was thus saved ???.and ransomed by God with a most pleasant, educational 30 years in the tyrants own backyard.
The quran is indeed clearing up the falsehood but has been misunderstood- I believe.
(My thought)
Thus Abraham Opposes Infanticide ? the slaughtering of infants ? but Moses will bring the subject up when he is fully grown and ask the tyrant, did you really do such a heinous act?Good hunting to you.
Simple....thats ridiculous.
Salam,
Arnab -
However if its not mentioned which of Abraham's sons was to be sacrifised than maybe it is to avoid discriminations between two prophets and its not important just as it was not important how many the occupants of the cave were.
Salam,
Here's an example.....lets say that someone writes a book Called "Cinderella Three" and its a continuation of the Life of Cinderella.
In this book the author writes
"Remember when Cinderella lost her shoe on the stairs.
Before the hour struck.
If she did not return she would be exposed......"Let's say nothing else is said about the original Cinderella story in the book "Cinderella Three" except these lines.
If we did not read the Original story of Cinderella we would not know
Why Cinderella lost her shoe or Where she was when she lost her shoe. Or even if the shoe is important to the story or not.
Which hour it was or if it was day or night.
Or what was meant by the phrase "if she did not return she would be exposed."
Was she a thief, in danger of being exposed to the police? Where was she going to return to?
The phrases were only meant to remind you of the story in order to make a point about something.
Same thing as in the Quran. The Quran ASSUMES you've read previous scripture. (the Quran states this continuously)
2106 Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
I came across the verse below this morning and wondered what it actually meant but reading this discussion the mist clearedBut the Previous scripture is not Abrogated or Forgotten.....apparently, though, it seems to be ignored.
Salam,
Arnab -
here is a video of a jewish person's analysis of the jewish text referring to this debate...some good points.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BAwVgaip34&feature=relatedSalam dc2,
Thank you for the reference and linking the video.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab" and "belalhammad",
The reason why the one to be sacrificed has to be Ishmael is because Abraham had only two sons AND Isaac was BORN AFTER THE SACRIFICE EVENT ACCORDING TO QURAN. Here seeWe ransomed him by substituting an animal sacrifice.
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AND we gave him(Abraham) the good news about the birth of Isaac, to be one of the righteous prophets.GOD Bless!
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Yes, but there are places where I refer to the WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT and others just the five books of Torah. Besides what does it matter the story is in Genesis which is included no matter any of the above names used.
Sorry the "old testament" has no relevance whatsoever with the Qur'an. The Qur'an does not mention the Old Testament, it mentions the Torah. The Tanakh is NOT the same thing. And you must remember the current Torah is not the ORIGINAL Torah.
I'm not ignoring you. No, God does not forget. But I already went in depth with this explaination.
Use Slaughter or sacrafice. IT is the same thing. Why do I say that? Because a slaughter is to kill something. Does this apply? YES
A sacrafice is a killing for God. Does this apply? YES
Abraham recieved a vision from God as to what to slaughter.No! They are very different things. Sacrifice is a killing to appease a GOD, a pagan idea still prevalent in modern day religions including Christianity. Slaughter is killing something (usually cases with animals, but can be used elsewhere). But where does it say SACRIFICE is used to appease God in the Qur'an? Nowhere. This is what it says
It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah it is your piety that reaches Him He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.
2237I repeat there is nothing in the Qur'an that tells us to sacrifice anything for Him. There is nothing in the Qur'an to tell us to kill our children under ANY circumstances whether it is sacrifice or slaughter...therefore the vision could not have come from God. Not that God does not give visions, but God only gives guidance to those who believe. He does not lead astray those who believe.
What is the problem with the word sacrafice? Use the word Kill/slaughter instead. It is the same meaning.
here is the definition of sacrifice
1 an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially the killing of a victim on an altar
2 something offered in sacrifice
3 a destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
b something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>I'm not saying that to sacrifice a child is a guidance towards light. Don't be ridiculous. I already explained that it was A TEST given specifically to ABRAHAM.
And I'm saying tests come from everywhere in life. Tests can come from different paths The devil, our friends, family, enemies, but they all ultimately come from God. The point I'm trying to make if you understood rhetoric is that God indeed would not tell him to slaughter his child for any reason because he only gives Guidance to the believers. It was indeed a test I'm not denying that, but the VISION was not from God. That is not the same thing. Our whole lives are tests from God so what is your point? Nowhere in sura 37 does it say Abraham gained vision from God to test him. Because it is something evil (killing a child) and a misguidance, it cannot be from God(who does not change his ways 2237), not EVEN for the sake of a test. The test came from God as do all things, in that he gained a vision from another source and was following it. It is feasible that the devil gave him the vision as a test from God, because the nature of Shaytans is misgudance.
So, now you are asking me to explain to you why different translators, whom I have never met are translating the word differently? How in the world can I answer that?
You can't answer it because there are different interpretations. Sacrifice and slaughter are NOT, the same thing. But some translators chose to use SACRIFICE and some chose to use SLAUGHTER. Now despite how you think they are the same thing, they completely change the idea behind the parable. There would be no replacement with a "momentous sacrifice" if there was no sacrifice in the first place. And indeed there is no necessity for sacrifice anywhere in the Qur'an (in terms of flesh and blood and death)
Of course Abraham was just flesh and blood. I'm not trying to say otherwise.
God Praises Abraham continuously and does not tell us that he was lead astray.....Quite the opposite.
Not the point I was making. Abraham was a MAN who could have dreams like anyone else. Which means the devil could tempt him like anyone else. But only the disobedient/non-believing MAN will be lead astray by temptations. God will KEEP the obedient ones. This is why God intervened, because he saw Abraham was succumbing to temptation of the vision he misinterpreted as being from God and saved him and his son. He later says he makes him an example for later generations to follow and Peace be upon Abraham.
God was testing Abraham. He was not commanding evil. This was not incorrect guidance it was a test. brickwall
I am absolutely NOT saying that God is changing his ways and commanding evil. NOT AT ALL.
it was a test given to Abraham. This is clear.
Yea! I'm not saying it was not a test. wow But you are saying that God is changing his ways because you are saying God gave Abraham a vision to do wrong (killing an innocent, child). But God would have never given this vision in the first place, because God does not misguide or wrong people's souls. Therefore the test indeed was from God as is ALL things, but the vision was not from God because it is not in the nature of God (described in the Qur'an not how I describe him) to do such things. I gave you the aya that God never changes his ways. That is like God telling ADAM to eat from the TREE then stopping him when he was just about to. NO. God said, do not eat from this tree. He only gives Guidance to creatures, humans can be tempted (as was Adam). It does not mean Abraham was weak, or he was evil, or he was full of error. I believe God is showing us in this parable how Abraham made a mistake like Muhammad 6 times throughout the Qur'an. He even chastises Abraham for wishing forgiveness and peace on his Idolating father! We learn from mistakes just as much maybe even more than from excelling in something, which is why God includes Muhammad's mistakes. From Abraham's test we learn as modern day believers that visions we make think are from God may be misleading because they go against the true guidance that is in the Qur'an.
Then you disbelieve in all the verses that say to follow the Torah. Fine. You've said that.
But, you are not even believing in the Quran when IT CLEARLY says these things
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Abraham recieved a VISION to slaughter his son (and visions are from Allah)
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That it was a TEST from ALLAH
Salam,
ArnabCalm down, I never said the Torah is not guidance and that it should be denied. But you cannot deny that the Torah has been changed after it was destroyed. Let's see what the Qur'an says about the Torah
He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
33O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
365And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
350Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
568The Qur'an which is alleged to be free from all error. A claim that is boldly stated in it. If we believe in it, we believe in this statement also. Error cannot assail it from any angle. It is sent as a CONFIRMATION of the Torah before it. Therefore whatever is in the current Torah that is truthful will be in the Qur'an, which is the differentiator. As a result The Qur'an is the primary source now for all Abrahamic religions. Of course you would read the Torah, there is no error in doing so. But the Qur'an will tell you what is truthful when reading the Torah, and what has crept in as error.
Do not claim I am not believing in the Qur'an when I am studying it, you have no leg to stand on uttering that. When all you can say is "it is a test" repeatedly. You put in brackets (and visions are from Allah), yes they ARE as are revelations/scriptures/religious books. But how many religious books are there in the world claiming to be from God? What about the Mormon Bible, The Scientology books, the ancient heiroglyphics on Egyptian monuments? They claim to be from God or a higher power and many people indeed believe so, and we know that God does indeed give knowledge, scripture and religious guidance. So using your logic these must be from God as well. You would say of course not! But then how do we truly discern what is from God and what is not. We know the nature of God in terms of HOW he guides and who he guides and that he never changes his ways e.g. suggests evil deeds for the sake of a dream. From there we can differentiate truth from falsehood.
God does indeed reveal through visions, but just because Abraham gained a vision does not mean it is from GOD, especially when we know the Nature of God in the context of the Qur'an and there is nothing explictly stating the vision is from GOD.
Peace
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