When asked I say I'm muslim or that my family is muslim to those who are not muslim. I am not 'out' to anyone within the muslim community as a Quran Alone believer.
Also, I have thought about calling myself 'Abrahamic'. God says follow Abraham and Judaism, Christianity and Islam are known as the Abrahamic faiths, so maybe that's another way of describing who I am and what I believe in.
Abortion is not Disneyland nor a plessure trip. It is cruel and irreponsible to pound on women because they may decide to abort. God enjoins all people to honour the wombs. Honouring the wombs means that no woman would ever feel conflicted and dreading because of becoming a mother. That no woman would find herself in the dire strait of having to choose between feeding the children she already has or not feeding them because she is taken up with a new pregnancy. That no woman should fear that a baby or a new baby would put her more in the power ao a man that may be mistreating her. That she won't have to prostitue herself to feed achild or find nowhere to live or nowhere to go. That she won't be pointed out at as looser and an irresponsible person or a nuts for having a child. That a woman would always be sure that no matter what, as a mother she will be protected by her community and not insulted nor twatched as if she was a criminal, that she will be honoured as a mother, treated with respected and her freedom respected as something God ordered.
Society is hypocritical with mothers and women in general. Exacts as if women were their property but will not take care of them nor acknowledge their contribution. Those who worry so much about women not getting away with abortion, bark at the wrong tree and start the house with the roof. No. They must acknowledge that women do a sublime and demanding service to society and RESPECT THEM WITH UTMOST RESPECT, not watch over them as if they were contumanmcious kids, nor treat her always as a prospective lawbreaker and troublemaker. Society is too lucky that women still carry on having children, because society deals very arrogantly, very harshly, very pimpishly, very unfairly and unjsutly with women. they claim very much about abortion, but not even one of those who have written in this thread will admit that society and believers must honour the wombs and must safeguard first and foremost the honour and the freedom of women. And by honour I mean not to play continuously with it as if they always offered a ground for mistrust and should pass their exam of trusworthyness over and over. Society is not the owner of women, God is the owner of women and society and men and women are gravely trespassing when they make assaults, verbal or otherwise on the trustworthiness, nonguiltiness and moral honour fo women. This society that watches after women like a hounddog but does not much of its duties to them, does not deserve any consideration nor respect in return from their women nor that the women keep faith with their dirty minds, their moral bankrupty and their egotism. Such societies are indeed getting a gift of a deal and they do not deserve it.
Talk to God about it see what He says. We, present societies, get much better than we deserve. We do not want abortions? Well and good go about it the right way. If it is too much to expect, then it is better not to say anything and not to parade fake moralist grandstanding on abortion when all that is intended to do is patronize about what women should or should not do. Women o not need any of that, they are adults not toys nor dogs nor the property of anybody but the Mighty, Al Quddus, Ar-Rahman ar-rahim.
Say I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn (1) From the mischief of created things; (2) From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads; (3) From the mischief of those who practise malignant crafts; (4) And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy. (5)
Say I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind, (1) The King of Mankind, (2) The god of Mankind,- (3) From the mischief of the Whisperer, who withdraws, (4) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- (5) Among Jinns and among men. (6)
Salaam
Sorry, Man of faith, you indeed did, and you are usually generous in your thoughts. I think I was a bit carried away in the estimation of proportions. Sorry to you an to any other person I might have represented wrongly.
I am sorry that the whole thing about reproduction and males and females mission is being taken piecemeal and not as a whole and therefore any conclusion based on that piecemeal procedure will result in injustice and in futility. Nothing useful or good is likely to come of it. God gives resort to people to solve breaches within a marriage, for humans to pretend to rule on women reproductive behaviour ouside of those parameters are a challenge to God, who kept it for Himself. And a challenge to the own souls of those who would attempt to rule over things of which they have no command nor true knowledge.
Salaam
Having opposition or reservation towards abortion is not about hating or oppressing women. Having read through many pro-abortion arguments and opinion pieces, you seem to have a very 'doomsday' view not shared by the majority. For the most part, in the developed world at least, pro-abortion and pro-choice is about having free & unfettered access to abortion services all the time. Furthermore, at least in the developed world, for the most part those women do no want it because they fear that having a child might result in them having to prostitute themselves to provide for the child. No, they argue for the right to abort a pregnancy, due to the simple inconvenience it causes. Some women find having an abortion harrowing and stressful. Some women are perfectly okay and having an abortion does not impact them or affect them one bit.
Abortions will not help the women in less developed societies or those living in lower socio-economic strata. You want to help women and improve their lives, then they need education and access to contraception. Studies consistently show the better educated the men and women in a society are, the better choices they make in life - i.e. Economic development. Having abortions is not going to give them that, simply because after the abortion, they will go back to whatever situation they were in to begin with. Women need to have access to education, skills development and jobs. If they didn't have it before they fell pregnant then they won't have it after the abortion either.
Regarding your comments on honouring the womb and gods solutions to solving breaches within a marriage
?And the divorced women shall hold themselves for three menstruation periods; and it is not lawful for them to conceal what God has created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And their husbands would then have just cause to return together, if they both wish to reconcile. And for what obligations the women are owed, so similarly must they fulfil their obligations. But the men will have a greater responsibility over them in this. And God is Noble, Wise.? (Quran 222
God does not allow women to conceal what is in her womb. Now if she was aware that she was pregnant, hid it and had an abortion, then does that not violate god's command? God gives the husband a right to now wether his now estranged/divorced wife has conceived. This is in direct opposition to the pro-abortion stance where they argue and believe that the woman has a right to an early abortion because it is her body and her choice and no other person can have a say in it. Why does god not allow the women to conceal what is in the womb?
?You shall let them reside in the home you were in when you were together, and do not coerce them to make them leave. And if they are pregnant, you shall spend on them until they give birth. Then, if they nurse the infant, you shall pay them their due for such. And you shall maintain the amicable relations between you. If you disagree, then another woman may nurse the child.? (Quran 656)
If the husband and wife have not been able to reconcile, then god makes it clear that the woman must complete the full pregnancy term and that the now divorced husband must provide fully for her care. So, what if the woman, now divorced, does not want to have the child. The pro abortion view is that she has every right to abort and not have the child. Yet, I don't see god agreeing.
Peace.
Al.
{No one should be burdened with more than they can bear No mother (or woman giving birth) shall be made to suffer because of her child} 2233
Thanks for this verse. I didn't know about it. Helps with understanding the extreme cases.
@ Man of Faith.
Awareness is an interesting concept.
You say that it is a lump of cells with no awareness of anything. But surely they're must be a level of awareness because otherwise how could it all happen? During menstruation the female body is active in preparing for the next fertile opportunity to get pregnant. Is that not awareness of the body, especially considering and that it is a natural process which the woman has no control over what's so ever??
An example of awareness Take a person who is fully awake and a person is fully asleep. It is fair to say that the former would have much more awareness than the latter, correct? What differentiates their level of awareness is the state in which they are in. By your logic it would mean that harm inflicted upon that person who is sleeping would be lesser in degree because they were in a lesser state of awareness due to being in a state of sleep, compared to harm being inflicted upon the person who is fully wake because they are completely 'aware' of themselves, their surroundings and of what is happening.
The stage of Fertilization The sperm will typically meet the egg in the lower quadrant of a fallopian tube and start to swarm around the egg. The ovum is covered by a protective field known as the zona pellucida, and in order for fertilization to take place, sperm cells must find a keyhole (or receptor) to unlock the zona pellucida, gain entrance, and burrow their way to the oocyte, the genetic core of the ovum. Only one sperm will connect with the oocyte, precipitating genetic combination - signaling that fertilization has just taken place. With fertilization, the ovum becomes the zygote or embryo and now passes through complex phases of cell division and differentiation. You have just conceived!
All the things that are involved in the above process have to be aware of what is happening, or else how can they participate in it and continue the process?? The sperm has to be 'aware' in some sort of form of what is happening otherwise how would it fertilise the egg?? It's not awareness in the way we living breathing humans understand and know it to be. Human creation is not like building a car or a house, because what is developed is not an inanimate object, it is living. And as it is a living creature, it's building blocks are also living. Out body is made of cells which are alive- they require sustenance to stay alive and perform all its functions.
Your words 'Best is to let the fetus be after it starts to develop its brain and autonomous body organs I think in my opinion'.
By the sixth week of foetal development the heart is formed and is pumping blood and by the seventh week the head develops.
Is the level of awareness still low and insignificant of the foetus which has a head with developing facial features and a heart pumping blood?
Foetal development first trimester. http//www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112
The issue really comes down to the fact of 'when does life begin' and whether or not you have the right to 'intervene and terminate that said/possible life'.
? We learn that God has made life sacred
"Now let man but think from what he is created?
?We have honoured the Children of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours above a great part of Our Creation.
"Do not kill yourselves, for verily Allah has been to you most merciful"
"...and (Allah) is the one, who gave you life, then shall He ordain you to die, then shall He give you your life again, truly mankind is ungrateful"
"...Take not life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law. Thus does He command you, so that you may learn wisdom" (6151).
? It is the woman's body and therefore she should be free to do what she deems necessary in any situation
Pro-abortion/Pro-choice will say that what is in the womb is lesser in value and therefore can be treated differently and can be done with how the mother wishes as it is dependent on the mother for all things.
I do not agree on placing a lesser value on what is in the womb. I feel that this view is held firstly because people do not believe in the one true god / creator. Furthermore, it?s easy to treat the what is in the womb differently because you do not see it, nor can it speak or have a say.
God is our creator and to god belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. We are dependent on god for everything; we are not independent. How much of your life or body is yours when you are dependent on god for every ounce of sustenance?
"The one who has created me, He will guide me
"He is the one who feeds me and gives me to drink
"And if I am sick, he is the one who cures me
"And the one who will make me die and then bring me to life
?And the one whom I hope will forgive my mistakes on the Day of Judgement
? The foetus is not a human being yet; it cannot live outside the uterus on its own.
Just as god has created the mother, god has also created what is in the womb.
"We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then from a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed ... and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes".
We see that the process of creation is described as having stages. God created the universe in a staged process. We know that all animals have a gestation period which has a known process. Cells have a stage by stage process of replication, as does DNA. More specifically, god is in control of the process. We know that god does as it wills, that god is capable of all things and that for god all things are easy. If what is inside the womb is a creation of god, then clearly you cannot disregard it or relegate it to an insignificant level and do as you wish with it.
There is a clear process outlined by god for a good reason, and I believe that this indicates that the whole process and what is created during this time is of great significance. I believe the detailing of the creation of the human being by god is to not only meant to highlight the significance of the process but to make us ponder on just about everything which god has created and the power which god possesses which enables it to create such things!
? Letting a baby be born into an unwanted home is cruel and could lead to later neglect.
? Many foster homes and orphanages are beyond capacity, putting a child into the foster care system would way even heavier on already scarce resources.
? All children should be wanted and born into homes that are prepared to love and care for them, emotionally and financially.
The above arguments are not valid as god makes it clear that god is the provider.
You shall not kill your children due to fear of poverty. We provide for them, as well as for you. Killing them is a gross offense.
God makes it clear that not only does God provide for the child but God also provides for the parent(s) ? All are taken care of by god.
? Fear of death for mother if continuing with pregnancy in late stages.
This is interesting to me and I would appreciate further discussion on this. God says that only god knows the appointed term of each soul. So fearing that you may die is not the same as knowing that you will die, and therefore just because you fear or think that you may die does not mean that you actually will die. So if you terminate the pregnancy to save the mother?s life, then it would mean that you believe that death is certain. ON the other hand, the medical opinion is that death is likely if the pregnancy continues and thus the reason why most pregnancies are terminated at very late stages. So how do you reconcile the two matters? Does not terminating the pregnancy on the opinion that you will certainly die, contradict the word of god that only god knows when every soul will ?taste death??
? Cases of rape or incest, a baby could remind the woman of the horrible event she had experienced
This is where my view changes, maybe.
Rape is a gross injustice. I see rape as a type of oppression, and god has said that oppression is worse than killing. I think having a system in place to prevent/terminate the pregnancy would be acceptable as it would be part of seeking justice for the women. To carry to full term a child conceived through an act of violence is incredibly traumatising.
On the other hand, God says that no soul is burdened with more than it can handle. So would terminating the pregnancy concede that you cannot handle the situation, thus contradicting what god says about you being able to handle it?
Also, regarding the raping of women by the people of Pharaoh
And We had saved you from the people of Pharaoh, they were afflicting you with the worst punishment; they used to kill your children and rape your women; and in that was a great test from your lord.
The punishment meted out by the people of the pharaoh here is clearly described as tests by god for the Children of Israel. Therefore is rape, and the resulting pregnancy, also a test from God?
? Family planning ? getting pregnant when trying not to get pregnant
Contraception is not condemned in AQ ? unlike in Catholicism. However, not all contraception prevents conception 100%; they all have flaws. So what happens when you become pregnant? Well I believe that it comes back to the fact that god creates what it wills. God?s command is ?be and it is?. God says not to kill the children out of fear of poverty for god will provide for all. Therefore to seek to terminate the pregnancy would be an act of aggression against gods will. A story of my own I knew a guy once whose dad got the ?snip? as a means of contraception, and his wife still fell pregnant. So the guy ended up having a little sister! Was it not god?s will for that child to be born?
? My conclusion
Judging by what has been sent down it is made clear to us that life and death is a matter for god and that, apart from the taking of a life in the path of justice, we have absolutely no say, nor any power, over life and death and who lives and who dies, epitomised by the fact that we cannot even take our own life in any circumstance.
To intervene and terminate the process of human creation (abortion) would be a gross act of aggression against God?s will to create what he wills. This includes, abortions performed in the first trimester. Foetal development in the first trimester includes- A primitive face takes form with large dark circles for eyes, the mouth, lower jaw, and throat are developing. Blood cells are taking shape, and circulation will begin. I cannot believe that society is OK with intervening and destroying this creature. How much more 'human' does something have to be for people to draw the line and say no more after this?
brickwall
Peace
Al.
Peace Hafiz,
Welcome.
I have completely rejected the hadith and now only believe in the Al-Quran. It is the straight path.
P.S> I'm in Melbourne.
Regards
Al.
Thanks for the feedback.
The Sahih International translation is interesting when i read it compared to all the other translations because while all the others specifically single out monasticism as something that was not prescribed, the Sahih Int. translation doesn't ( to me of course!).
"Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient."
The way i read it is
3 things were put into the hearts of those who followed Jesus - 1. Compassion 2. Mercy 3. Monasticism
Then these 3 things were all 'innovated' by the people. (defn. innovative - being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before).
This to me says that all 3 things were changed in how each was preached and practiced. God then says that what they 'innovated' was not what was prescribed and that what was prescribed was not observed 'with due observance'.
2 groups are mentioned 1. those who believed (i.e those who did not change anything) and 2. the disobedient (i.e those that changed the ways).
When i read 5727 like this then 582 makes sense because there were still those amongst the followers of Jesus who were true believers and had not changed anything, and so god tells the believers that you can find support amongst some of the Nazarene, especially the monks and priests, for some were still holding true to what sent down.
If i look at all the other translations which single out monkery as not being ordained to the people, then why would god specifically mention monks in 582??
**Note I do not know Arabic but troll through the many translations and follow what seems best.
Thoughts appreciated!!
We need to strengthen our own base. We need to come to agreements on topics and issues where we can. Where we cannot, then we must agree to disagree, present the different views and let the people decide what is best for them.
We need to get professional.
I think we need a better website. Something professional - this one will not cut it.
We need to do what the LDS Church have done. Check out their website www.lds.org
We need to present ourselves as the real deal and not amateur.
I suggest we advertise in local / national papers. Maybe a verse or two from AQ, a few words on the oneness of god and the link to this site / forum. We need to increase awareness.
@earthdom
"Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil"
The men of Sodom and Gomorrah approached men and obstructed their road. That means that these men were not from the city but they were outsiders who were passing through the city (i.e. 'travelers' and were blocked by the men of S & G.
I'm not from the U.S but from what i know, San Francisco is a very extreme case. It is important to point out that the U.S. military offloaded thousands of gay servicemen in San Francisco during World War II after they were discharged for their homosexuality; hence why SF has such a prominent gay male population.
Furthermore, U.S cities such as NY, Boston, Seattle, Houston, Dallas, Chicago all have large gay populations, so lets not come to conclusions based on the experiences of only one city.
SF is very liberal - they have a number of 'clothing optional' beaches and events and there were a lot of protests when the city banned public nudity. It's a place where 'anything goes' and attracts a fair few 'misfits' and 'weirdos'.
"If a reasonably attractive man walked up a random woman on the street and said "hey baby let's have sex" would he not get slapped in the face 99% of the time? If the opposite happened, do you really think most men would turn down the offer? So homosexual sex becomes super easy to obtain. Thus, because it becomes super easy to obtain, gay men tend to obtain a lot of it. Thus it becomes a habit. Thus they very easily are lead into a hedonistic life-style of being addicted to such pleasures. This was something I saw with my own eyes. And not only that but they've already rejected sound moral guidance and thus they are left without a moral foundation to protect them from such a trap. In San Francisco, a huge amount of the gay men have become meth addicts because of this. Meth makes sex better and it's hard for them to resist when they're been converted into hedonistic pleasure-seekers with no unbending sense of morality. I remember seeing a former muslim leave his religion and becoming such as I've described. It was especially sad because he had a brilliant mind but it became totally warped by his life-style."
That's a very big stretch. Hedonism, promiscuity, meth addicts, rejecting moral guidance is not something specific to the gay community. Promiscuity is widespread among heterosexuals; especially among the young people of today. Hooking up at parties and clubs is celebrated; The term 'get a room' was not created by gay men as well as 'try before you buy'. The famed 'sexual revolution' of the 60s and 70s was lead by the hetero community.
The main reason that issues are so profound amongst the gay male community is that they have been discriminated against and marginalised by the mainstream hetero community for such along time in the US. They have never been left to live in peace. If you look at the HIV/AIDS epidemics in the gay community of the 80s, while European governments took action to reduce the spread, response was really slow in the America. Outside Africa the issue was most prominent in the US simply due to widespread homophobia of the US. There is a term 'hetero-phobia' given to gay people who are fearful of hetero people because they were subject of many negative experiences and attitudes from straight people.
This has all led to a very closed community with many issues.
My comment from another thread about homosexuality.
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."
This verse clearly indicates that they were married men, and thus heterosexual. Only heterosexual married men would leave their wives for another; a homosexual man would have no wife to leave!!
"Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."
This verse clearly indicates RAPE. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah APPROACHED the male travelers and OBSTRUCTED their path and COMMITTED EVIL.
NOTE That the actions of only one party has been condemned - Those of the men of the city. The male travelers HAVE NOT been condemned - meaning that they committed NO wrong doing!! IF their actions were condemned along with the actions of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah, then this would clearly indicate that the sexual nature of the incidences which took place were mutual in nature. BUT this is not the case - only the actions of the men of the city are condemned as evil and hence THEIR defiant stand against the prophet and almighty god!
The women of Sodom and Gomorrah did nothing to stop the actions of the men. Instead showing solidarity with them in their defiance against the prophet and god; therefore COMPLICIT in the evil and thus destroyed along with their menfolk!
This is why the situation at Sodom and Gomorrah is described by almighty god as one which has never been committed before by any other society - the rape of men by other men.
Peace
Azhar.
The Lord of mankind provides the best examples. So i am reminded of the one where Moses tells his people that god commands them to sacrifice an animal.
And remember Moses said to his people "Allah commands that ye sacrifice a heifer."
They said "Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?"
He said "Allah save me from being an ignorant (fool)!"
They said "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what (heifer) it is!"
He said; "He says The heifer should be neither too old nor too young, but of middling age. Now do what ye are commanded!"
They said "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us Her colour."
He said "He says A fawn-coloured heifer, pure and rich in tone, the admiration of beholders!"
They said "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what she is To us are all heifers alike We wish indeed for guidance, if Allah wills."
He said "He says A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish."
They said "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will.
A simple command made hard - sound familiar???
Read it over and over and over and take heed of the message!!!
Meaning of sujud/sajada lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.
Meaning of ruku' bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.
The problem that continually arises is that people only want to accept on definition or want a definitive answer on what it means. It's like people are just incapable or do not want to accept the fact that maybe you can perform sujud and ruku in more than one way!!
Why can't a person do either of the above mentioned things? Why does only one of the ways have to be right. Why can't I prostrate to god one day and salute god the next? If they both mean that i am performing 'sujud' then what is the problem?
If someone wants to physically prostrate then so be it. If someone wants to mentally prostrate then so be it. Their reward is with the one who created them.
Debating which is correct or which is of greater importance and is better is so trivial its sectarian!!
I basically live a double life so to speak. I'm 22 at the moment but i rejected hadith around the age of 17-18. My family is traditional sunni & my dad is the epitome of a hypocritical sunni. When i pray along with them i go through the motions but i 'tune out' so to speak. Sometimes if i want to avoid having to pray with them in congregation, i will say ' i'm off to pray' and then go into my room and stay in there for around 10mins or so - not praying of course. I don't follow the sunni dietary laws when i am out - i eat to my hearts content what God has made lawful and MY GOD does it feel good; I try all sorts of yummy food!! I go to the friday prayers as when i am home but again i just go through the motions. I have started to donate 1/5 of my monthly income to various charities. I haven't been participating in the traditional fasting - i still have to read up on that as i want to be sure that i am fasting as God has prescribed; but i do go through the motions of wakeing up with family in the morning as well as breaking the fast and 'praying' taraweeh.
I don't feel that i am deceiving my family in any way. I actually feel opressed in my house. I want to be able to submit to God as God has wanted me to, and i feel that i am not being able to do that fully. I think the only way i can do that is to move out, and it is something that i am seriously considering especially as i am getting older. It won't go down well at all with my folks but then i feel like i have no choice; i'm getting tired of the charade.
Peace
Al.
@Jafar
It was in reference to the following verse "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?"
I used the word evil, as that was the word used in the verse that i had posted. In hindsight i should have just posted the above verse....would have made more sense.
It is very easy to be in the majority and condemn a minority.The actions of the societies of which you talk about are in clear violation of what God almighty has decreed in his book. God tells us repeatedly to not transgress the limits and to act in a just and righteous manner. We are never told to impale anyone. So why did they do it??? Well you would have to start with their understanding of Al-Quran - What exactly are they following?? Of course we know where it all comes from.
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk."
This verse clearly indicates that they were married men, and thus heterosexual. Only heterosexual married men would leave their wives for another; a homosexual man would have no wife to leave!!
"Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."
This verse clearly indicates RAPE. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah APPROACHED the male travelers and OBSTRUCTED their path and COMMITTED EVIL.
NOTE That the actions of only one party has been condemned - Those of the men of the city. The male travelers HAVE NOT been condemned - meaning that they committed NO wrong doing!! IF their actions were condemned along with the actions of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah, then this would clearly indicate that the sexual nature of the incidences which took place were mutual in nature. BUT this is not the case - only the actions of the men of the city are condemned as evil and hence THEIR defiant stand against the prophet and almighty god!
The women of Sodom and Gomorrah did nothing to stop the actions of the men. Instead showing solidarity with them in their defiance against the prophet and god; therefore COMPLICIT in the evil and thus destroyed along with their menfolk!
This is why the situation at Sodom and Gomorrah is described by almighty god as one which has never been committed before by any other society - the rape of men by other men- the scale of the evils being committed was just so great!!
Peace
Azhar.
Kingship???? And pass his uncontrolled / unlegislated absolute power to his own progeny??
You must read the "House Of Saud" or "House Of Hashem" or "Bashar Assad" version of the Quran.. rotfl rotfl
The outright rejection over the concept of "Kingship" thus automatically granting power to the king's own son (or whomever else he wishes) without any consultation and agreement from the people is what makes Mr. Hussein Bin Ali got beheaded around 1400 years ago..
2247 And their prophet said to them ?God has sent Saul to you as a king.? They said ?How can he have the kingship when we are more deserving than him, and he has not been given an abundance of wealth?? He said ?God has chosen him over you and increased him in knowledge and physical stature.? God grants His sovereignty to whom He chooses; and God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2716 And Solomon inherited from David, and he said ?O people, we have been taught how to understand the speech of the creatures that fly, and we have been given from everything. This is indeed an evident grace.?
4810 Those who pledge allegiance to you, are in-fact pledging allegiance to God; the hand of God is above their hands. Those of them who violate such a pledge, are violating it only for themselves. And whoever fulfills what he has pledged to God, then He will grant him a great re ward.
459 O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
I really must be reading some other version of AQ.....
I see that there are people who believe that government should not exist and
However does it not say in AQ that God created us into nations and tribes? Nations have governments don't they? Tribes also have their our councils made up of tribal members to discuss issues etc, no?
Also, did God not give Kingship to certain people?
We need governments, from local councils to the the federal level, because we need to have people/systems dedicated to ensure that society is functioning, that basics needs are being met, the laws are being obeyed etc.
And there needs to be someone or a group of people at the top. Just like a principle of a school, the dean of a university the captain of a team, plane or ship. There has to be somone at the top to make sure everything is going the way as planned The buck has to stop somewhere!
And why is it that people always give the example of the US as the prime reason why governments are bad and should not exist. Why not talk about the Scandanavian/Nordic countries or the Benelux countries, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Singapore or Australia??? There are some very bad governments, but there are also some very good ones.
Countries with good government and strong government do well. Its a fact. No society is perfect. But there are some that come close.
Regards,
Al-Azhar.
This might be going a little off topic but could someone kindly explain to me what this verse means
731 You Adam's sons and daughters, take/receive your decoration/beauty at every/each mosque/place of worshipping God,
Regards,
Al-Azhar.
I don't see anything wrong with 'tax', being governed properly taxation shall bring many benefits to society.
Being governed properly; taxation shall bring (among others)
Without good governance and transparency taxation could be a 'one of the mechanism' for accumulating wealth from the masses to the political elite. (Public fund from taxes are being transferred to their swiss bank account).
I intentionally mentioned 'one of the mechanism', as there are many other mechanism to accumulate wealth from the masses and/or public asset towards the political elite's bank account without taxation. (ie Kickbacks from government contract/policy, bribe , Share from oil/gas revenue which flow to their personal account etc..)
The main issue should be "how to govern public fund/money" and not whether 'the taxation' itself are legal or not.
For many of the oil/gas rich countries, they don't need to impose tax upon their citizen to fund the 'state administration' given the state income from oil/gas revenue are more than enough to provide public services and make the 'state administration' work rolling. Nevertheless... such 'public fund/money' from oil/gas revenue should be properly governed with transparency to avoid corruption / misuse / accumulation of wealth towards the political elite.
The type of economy as described above is being called as "rent-based economy" there are positive as well (many) negative side of this type of economy, feel free to research about it on the internet or economy books.
For those countries who are not fortunate enough to have abundant natural resources (ie Japan or South Korea) and in which main economic activities are coming from services and/or human activities, taxation will be a key mechanism to provide 'public fund/money'. Without taxation those countries cannot provide proper public services for the masses.
This kind of economy usually bring more 'transparency' and control by the public towards their government, as the government are being funded by public through taxes. As thus they need to be accountable towards their 'master' (which is the public who paid taxes) on how they use and channel the public money. And the public will demand those transparency because they feel part of their income are being 'taken away' by the government.
Salam / Peace
My thoughtsexactly. I went to a Tax funded public school. My parents could never afford to send me to a private school. Same goes for the public health system. Taxes are used to provide roads to public transport to university research grants to the police force and courts and criminal justice system.
How is all this suppose to happen without adequate taxation?
2256
There shall be no compulsion in the religion.
You've posted this verse a few times now on this thread.
It is clear to me that you have a very different understanding of that verse. My understanding has always been with how the verse has generally been interpreted, and that is that Allah is saying that Religion/Faith is not compulsory. And that Islam is not compulsory. ie You DO NOT have to believe. Thus the verse where Allah says that the right path has been made clear from the wrong path etc.
Anyone else????
Thanks for the replies.
So
20% can be applied as a tax by an Islamic state.
And it says that in the Quran?
I was reading up on those "ask the imam" sites and they were saying there's only a 2.5% tax...not that i put much weight on anything they say.
Also, is it on income or wealth?
I don't mean to sound pedantic..I'm just curious to know.
Peace!
Sorry for the late reply, i forgot i posted this!
I have been searching for the articles which i read on the net and i have found one but its just an article on wiki.answers. I can't find the articles that i had read originally.
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/Concept_of_Taxation_in_Islam