I sent you a PM but I just mentioning again lol I would definitely love to read the e-book/research. please send me a copy.

salam!

Lol Its not that people love destruction, turmoil, and despair. its rather the opposite.

The human brain responds to dire situations, and evokes many responses.

This is why Allah tells us no one who says they believe really believes until they are tested/tried.

Often times it takes dire disasters or destruction to awaken the human soul. Its strength weaknesses, hopes, concerns are all challenged in these moments.

This is why movies like, Brave heart, Avatar, Lord of the Rings, District 9, etc all interest movie goers.

it evokes responses from human emotion. when you see a movie with a innocent person dying your heart is wrenching, you want to help that person you want to do something.

when you see a movie about bubble gum love relationships, you get no response from it.

This world is a trial. everything whether real or illusion tests us.

a man who has never been tried is not equal to a man who is put through trial and error.

rarely in history has any great man ever made it to their point in life whether knowledge or success with sitting down in a pleasant go lucky life.

but almost all mankind has been tried through trials and tribulations big and small.

and it is these that mold individuals. it is these events that distinguish the strong and true, from the weak and false.

as unfortunate as the ills in this world are they are trials and a necessity.

Movies express this. It took the death of Lukes family in Starwars to awaken his purpose to realize what he had to do. It was this trial that set him to cause.

It took the death of William wallaces loved one to realize his trial and job to free Scotland.

No man or woman overcame the trials they faced, nor the obstacles that lay before them, without first tasting loss, and pain.

Unfortunately it is these disastrous things that often times are need to wake mankind from his illusion of slumber.

sometimes people need a kick to wake up.
it is trials that make us. we all say we believe and would do A B C in an X or Y situation. but it is actually going through that situation that our words are put to the test whether they become action or mere hearsay.

Where did I said that ????
It is you who said that...

From easterner perspective;
They find it ridiculous those who think "The Supreme Force of All Universes" is a person who talk, who 'mould creation' with His hands.. who is above looking below, who design first before working.. etc...

Those who think that "God need time to design first before working/creating" is yet putting another 'human behavior / habits / attributes' to the Supreme Force of All Universes...

I concur to what you said, the true god (whatever name you used to call It or Him) encompasses everything.. he/it's everywhere and He/It is THE EVERYTHING.. and this universe with billions of Galaxies is just perhaps yet another universe from billions of other universes.. And He/It never stop working...

Salam / Peace

perhaps you are not understanding me. No where did i say Allah is a man that looks down with hands and legs. that upsurd. Allah is formless. nothing compares to the Creator. Allah surrounds everything be he is not everything. why can you not grasp the gravity of the situation? Allah created everything out of nothing the earth the stars the galaxies that formed from gas and intense heat, all these things matter and anti matter etc are all created properties, everything created will perish..

All the cosmos and many others OBEY Allahs laws that he has place in the universe, gravity, time space etc. all the laws of physics are implemented by the creator.

let me use an example a cheesey one yet it may get the point across. If you have ever watched star wars, "the force" is described much like Allah, a force of intelligence that is everywhere we turn, yet it is unseen, it works through the creation but it is NOT the creation. the force was an immeasurable thing that binded and created all things.

Allah is immeasurable. and everything in creation can be measured, and has divisible quantities. Allah is indivisible. "the one" this is the concept of tawheed.

sadly to many muslims take " i am every where you turn" to literally mean that everything (pantheism) is Allah. in doing so much like suffis and bahais people begin to self glorify and thing THEY are Allah. shirk in the highest degree. there is no comparison to Allah. that goes for all of creation. what does Allah say? when everything is destroyed all that will remain is his face(metaphorical of course) hence quite clear Allah has no begining and no end. he is not the creation but he surrounds and guides and manages it. he works through the creation.

nothing compares to the Lord of the Worlds.

the universe had a begining and it has an end. and the Quran is quite clear that Allah has no begining and no end. so to even associate these things with Allah and say Allah is the universe is a gross assumption.

Salam

@AlboDibran

I have seen that many times you have rejected these thoughts without consideration. I think really, it is the "isms" that scare you most, and prevent you from considering this idea. Since it seems that you are interested neither in philosophy nor in the phenomenons of quantum physics, I will only quote some verses from the Qu'ran to support this view, take off the veil of religion from your mind, and read the following

this has nothing to do with religion. no where is Islam a religion. nor did I make the assertion. again the verses does not say Allah is everything. he encompasses everything however. He is everywhere but he is not everything. he created everything. and when the Universe is rolled up on he will endure and remain.

your spreading conjecture of which you have no authority. your claiming im rejecting something but you are ascribing something you dont know. your calling the earth Allah...Allah created the earth and it obeys his laws he places in the heavens. Allah is above and beyond what any one compares him to.

subhanallah at the verses you posted. but Allah is not the creation. after the creation has perished only Allah will remain. the cause to the effect. Allah is the cause. the universe and creation is the affect. PEACE

But you do witness the creation everyday.. even as we speak..
Or to put it in another sentence.. you do witness 'God's work' everyday..

The whole idea of 'intelligent design' theory and 'resistance' to the "Evolution theory" is due to the fact that human (especially in the west) views God as another human..
He talk, He's angry, He's sad, He need rest etc..
His home or address is on the 'outside' of this universe..
Much worse they used to see God as a "Deity in the sky" looking down below on earth..

Once you understand that the true Supreme Force of All Universes is here, there, everywhere and beyond you'll start to find the absurdity of 'Intelligent Design'... and you'll start to recognize that the word "Nature" / "Natural" and God is nearly synonymous... The "Law of God" is the "Law of Nature", unbreakable by anything...

Thus God (or nature) hasn't finished His (or It) works yet... on this universe... He (or It) still shaping Homo Sapiens and other beings and also other materials to become something new... until He (or It) destroy this universe with it's billion of galaxies....

The kingdom of God come not with observation
Neither shall they say, Look here! or, look there! for, behold! the kingdom of God is within you!.
-- Iashua Ha Nozirith (Luke 1720-21)

Salam / Peace

Allah is beyond a created beings comprehension. and please refrain from turning islam to druidism. Do not say of Allah what you have no knowledge. Allah is not nature, he created it, he is not the universe he created it. and all things in this universe including EARTH obey his LAWS. Allah is far beyond anything. and yes INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Allah is the KNOWING, he has all knowledge. Allah is supremely knowledageable therefore the supreme intelligence.

he governs everything and encompasses all.

but I for one do not jump on this band wagon of ascribing things to Allah. Pagans made the mistake of worshipping stars as God. some nature, etc. And Now everyone likes to say Allah is dark matter, Allah is energy.

Allah created all these things. he sent down no word of what his true being is. and he assured the humanity that he is beyond the perception of a created thing. NOTHING is like unto him. that is the fundamental concept of Tawheed. so be careful before calling Allah nature.

salam

And what if Evolution is intelligent design?
God clearly uses automated systems in the universe, the orbits of planets, the way light works, in computing terms they are macros, why should evolution be any different? You have to remember, the fleshy human body and the soul are two separate things, the human evolved over millions of years, it was only at a certain point were our souls placed into them, that is the point where we gained sentience.

Salam

you are probably referring to "spirit" correct? the spirit is not the soul. Adam was the only one gifted with ruh(discerning right from wrong/true from false)

our "soul/self" would be the nafs. which even most basic animals in the animal kingdom possess. Allah tells us it is the nafs which makes us act upon our animal tendencies. and the nafs inclines to evil. thats why we are to "purify the nafs"

and we will all be raised in the flesh. Allah makes this clear that we will be raised. and it is easy for the Creator.

back onto the topic i do believe in a guided form of evolution by Allahs design of course. Now there are many facets of theories. regardless, I did not witness the creation initially. but one thing is certain we are still evolving. scientific examination has found that over 5000 years from old skeletons to now that the human brain is SHRINKING. it is evolving. shrinking not as in unintelligent. but the brain/skull is shrinking. which they believe is due to the less usage of certain portions of the brain due to industrialization..

oh and I was not an administratior. you must have me mixed with someone else. peace

Hello Hamit.

Probably you have misunderstood, I very much doubt anyone that claims to accept the quran as an authentic message from Allah, says those things. But it's interesting that you point out the 'deceivers' in the community, while you are, or at least were, an administrator of a group of 'quranists' (on facebook) that think the caucasian are jinns, that the black race is pure, that all of the previous messengers were black etc.

yea and I got blocked from that group because I called out on the racism and talking what they dont know. while i do believe jinn are humans, im sure they can be any race. btw I am Caucasian. and yes i have heard some asinign things on this website, but I am talking about in general. salam

Yea I would have to agree with Jack there. If you go on rationalizing something like that, there is something seriously wrong with you mentally and spiritually, I am still heart broken over mistakes i made disrespecting my parents. And trying to rationalize rape after the fact is just twisted.

scary...lol so what are you implying that the mecca of the Quran is this place in yemen? Also I which is the real mecca. and what is the proof that mecca of today is not that old? any carbon dating evidence? because documents are hardly evidence to go by as there is no way to verify. is there any type of carbon dating or somehow to see how old the structure is? Allah knows best. salam

My message was not to you, but to Monotheist.Maverick in fact using his own words, partially, so he could see.
So you have got it all wrong. I guess it wasmy fault since I didnt quote the message I was answering.

I hope this makes understandable what I was trying to say, and it is that you have toknow the Qur'an and the language it uses, Arabic, so that one does not go ahead and assume that any word you happen to think you know is not necessarily a loan word in Arabic, since there are, in the cases know Arabic roots which make senseful its inclusion in the Qur'an, that is, they make sense in the context by themselves, without having to look for any estraneous meaning through loan words.

Salaam

Salam Huruf. No no I wasnt directing this towards you. my apologies for any misunderstanding.

Peace all.

Interesting point AlboDibran...
And yes, could we have this?
yes

Peace

Sure brother, here you are

23. "And they have said (to each other), 'Abandon not your gods Abandon neither Wadd nor Suwa', neither Yaguth nor Ya'uq, nor Nasr

I thought let me check the names of these pagan deities of Noahs people and see what I cant find.

"Wadd was a moon god worshipped in the Minaean kingdom (located in and around modern-day Yemen) of Southern Arabia from the fifth to first centuries BCE. His name meant ?Love? and/or ?Friendship,? and his sacred animal was the snake. "

(http//www.bythegods.net/post/556227042)

Yaguth

yaguth was a idol who was an object of contention among the tribes of Yemen and the name abd yaguth occurs in various parts of arabia, even in the tribe of Taghilib on the north eastern frontier, "had the shape of a lion"

Ya'uq and Suwa pagan deities of Yemen, inscriptions are still bound in temples and amulets in and around this region. Ya'uq was represented by a horse and Suwa was considered to be of antidilluvian times.

why do all these Gods of Noahs people occur in Yemen?

http//www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/The-Pagan-Arab-pantheon-2.aspx

Yes Wadd( not a bastardized word ), was the name of a pagan deity during the Minaen kingdom in and around modern day ----->Yemen<------- Not Iraq as so many Muslims will spew due to their false belief of historical geography by accepting bible stories. If we truthfully believe Quran is complete With nothing left out, then we must take anything not mentioned from any other text with a grain of salt until we can verify it. people like maverick believe the Quranic arabic borrows words from other languages, Allah says "its in a pure arabic tongue" and had it been "foreign" they would complain.

so since muslims believe as christians do that Noah was in Iraq it led them to assert(to justify their false beliefs) that the names of Noahs peoples deities are just "arabic bastardizations" of Iraqi deities. When this is not the case as is noted above.

Not one shred of evidence that these Gods of Noahs people were from Iraq, and better yet to ponder on is why would Allah name them all in order? perhaps as a sign to show his word stands clear of falsehood, and just like for year semetic languages origins have been from the south so to have these deities.

Allah tells us the messengers preached in the towns around the mother of towns, and that ad and thamud and people of Lut and Nuh were all nations succeeding EACH OTHER. but Muslims accept christian history and propagate the lies they are fed by saying they were seaparated by nations. which has left many holes logically and reasonably. In the end Allah knows best. but at the very LEAST anyone who claims the bible is needed to understand the Quran is just a blatant liar no different then one who takes hadith as guidance.

People can take it harsh, I am not trying to sound that way, just telling it straight, but to each their own. I will not ascribe to Allah other things.

Salam

What you have put yourself regarding the Qur'an is a lot of empty rhetoric, lacking anything solid, lacking knowledge of Arabic, not anything scholarly or rational, just preconceived stuff on what th Qur'an should be on not on what it is.

Salaam

really? because proponents of your false ideology wrongfully asserted that all the pagan deities of Noah found in this verse are bastardizations of loan words and not the actual names of his Gods since you believe they are from Iraq.

7121 And Noah said ?Lord, my people disobey me and follow those whose wealth and offspring will only hasten their perdition. They have devised an outrageous plot, and said to each other ?Do not renounce your gods. Do not forsake Wad or Sowa or Yaghuth or Ya?uq or Nasr.? ? They have led numerous men astray. You surely drive the wrongdoers to further error.?

All these Gods exist in Yemen by name to the letter, among its peoples tribes. find me any of these deities in Iraq since you believe you need the bible to understand the Quran. you reason no differen then a hadither. Salam

Perhaps, but as someone who has some experience with the original languages of both the Jewish and Christian scriptures, I see a lot of loan words from Hebrew and Greek. Injil, I believe, is a transliteration from the Greek "Euangel", which means "good news." Another loan word, I believe, that does the switch from "g" in Greek to "j" in Arabic is "Jahanam", from the Greek "Gehenna", which incidentally is a loan word from Hebrew for "Valley of Hinnom". It originally was a place where some Jews burnt their children in fires to the false god Molech, and at the time of Jesus is was the trash dump for Jerusalem, and it constantly burned and stank.

Yeah, I know. But keep in mind Jesus told that parable prior to the Quran.

Anyways, it appears that on this subject I am very much in the minority. So even though I read a translation of the Quran alongside reading Torah and Gospel, perhaps I should continue to refer to myself as a Unitarian or monotheist and not a muslim. I doubt such titles matter too much, but still. Since it appears what I'm saying has more philosophical common ground with hadithers (and I certainly do not like the hadith), perhaps "muslim" or "Quran alone" is not the designation for me.

Peace,
Joel

This is the problem you use other languages to claim words are altered.

The Quran is in a pure arabic tongue with no ajami influence. the fact you would say greek influenced the arabic of the Quran is a gross assertion. but that is the only way to accept the false lies you are being fed. to each their own.

is it any wodner that the pagan deities of Noahs people named in Quran have all been found in ruins of YEMEN? SOUTH ARABIA? looks like the bible fails in Noahs story. its not Iraq.

It really sickens me how some in here have the nerve to attribute the bible to Allah, and go to it to "explain stories"

brother Huruf and others pretty much nailed it on the head. You guys are no different then sectarians who run to hadith to explain the Quran. when you base your understanding of the quran in conjunction with the bible, you get a molded and twisted message.

For example I had a brother twist a verse of the Quran and quote the bible saying muslims have to practice circumscission. THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE ABOUT THAT.

And Maverick SHAME ON YOU for endorsing false bible tales calling solomon a disbeliever. HE WAS NOT. and Al Quran is clear he was a believer.

Isa is not Jesus, get that through your head.

The Quran is clear, and complete, It has been THE SAME message revealed to all the messengers. it is not a book that can be forged.

Allah tells us to disregard contradiction. For any bible thumpin Muslim in here, why did you leave the hadith? because I can quote you every bible verse in complete CONGRUENCE with hadith shariah.

you have exchanged one devil for another. and it makes no difference because your still putting the Quran in the passenger seat, instead of the drivers seat.

Allah knows best,

Salam to all

Salaam

I think there is an ideological pattern. Quranists have a quran-only impulse and after a while, non-Quranic information steps in. You then have ?this scholar said that? and ?this messenger said that? and somehow certain sources become authoritative.

These Quranists tend to believe in earlier scriptures but not hadith even though they are both equal in the eyes of the Quran. Apparently previous scriptures are approved by the Quran and the Quran is the criteria. However, they don?t use the Quran to confirm these ?scriptures? but rather use these scriptures to ?detail? the fully-detailed Quran. Ironic?

Are there earlier scriptures according to the Quran? The Quran says

Nothing is said to you except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is a possessor of forgiveness and a possessor of painful penalty. (41/43)

So if we take this aya above seriously, the Quran contains everything which was said to the messengers before. The double negative in this verse shows great emphasis. Nothing was said to them which wasn?t already said before!

The people who support ?earlier scriptures? would then say ?but the Quran doesnt have the details which the bible has?. I would answer them by saying that?s because its not an earlier scripture! The Quran only acknowledges itself.

Then came to the issue of Mikayl. It was stated the Quran only mentions Mikayl once (in 2/9 and so we need the Bible to supply us details. This sounds very familiar doesnt it, folks? This is a new Traditionalism except it uses the unQuranic ?previous scripture? notion. How do we solve this Mikayl problem?

Firstly, we must trust that everything the Quran tells us enough. But how do we find out what mikayl is? Lets return to 41/43 above. 41/43 anticipates the problem we might face and so the next verse tells us what to do

And if We had made it a faulty Quran, they would have said, ?Why are its verses not explained in detail (41/44)

A faulty Quran (ajami) would not able to supply us the details. The opposite of this word ?ajami? is ?arabi? which means faultless or with nothing sticking out. The Quran further says

Indeed, We have sent it down as a faultless that you might think (12/2)

The systematic and faultless language of the Quran enables us to think about its concepts. Take the mikayl. If one were to root it, it would rescind to W-K-L. This means to take representative in something. Tawakkal is to rely on something. Mikayl is a state in which God represents you. It follows Jibrael which is revelation.

The Quran stands on its own. There are no ?previous scriptures?.

pr Salaam

pretty much nailed it on the head. I too once head the above ignorance and told a brother "the falsehood in the bible is mistranslarted" then when he showed me in the original language text it said the same exact thing he basically shut me up lol. Hadith need no book or paper. just an ignorant mind and rebelious nature to deviate from Allahs way. salam bro

Salaam, ive got a task for you sun

only From the Arabic Qur'an
Get me out of the Qur'an that there was a cross and people was going to crucify Isa...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that Moses had the Torah....nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that history is a divine truth...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an that the bible and Torah is the same of today...nothing.
Get me out of the Qur'an the real explanation of the word "The book"...This is mistranslation of the word "the book" to be compatible with history...we are still affected by the history and the hadiths yet we should expel the history and the hadiths from our selves.

Now for a bigger bomb...Why did god in the Qur'an mention that this book is written by an Arabian TONGUE (not language be careful)...Didn't people of the Arabian desert know that they are speaking Arabic? did they need from god to know that there tongue is speaking Arabic? did God need that?Then there must be something else intentioned from this verse...what about the many contradictions of the language grammar and the grammar (if it is grammar) of the Qur'an???Still unknown errors? no it is not an unknown error it is just, we don't want to face it...yes the Arabic language is NOT the language of the Qur'an...Qur'an's language is an Arabian tongue that no one did explain it till now...

I can explain more but will take time, go search in the Arabic Qur'an if you can the word Moses with the Torah....there is nothing...Moses had "the book" which book? The same book God said that it's contents is included in the Qur'an...The same book the man who had some knowledge from it transported the Queen balkees to Solomon in no time..

Same book Isa knew about it with the Engeel and the Torah....the Engeel and Torah is NOT the Bible and Torah of today...Read the Torah and read the Bible of today...Specially the Torah, after reading the Qur'an...it is just a translation of the content of the Qur'an but a fake one...And since the content of the Qur'an is the book, the book was with Moses and it descended upon humanity...here you have the real deal...These people made up new religions from the Book which has the same content of the Qur'an...

History can't be much dirty? no it can... D

"People where one nation God sent prophets as heralds and warnings and he descended with them the book with righteous to judge (judge hear is returning on the book not the prophets) between people in what they became different in it and And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.

This is the real history... with no elfs hobbits or unicorns peace

Agreed bro. Allah knows best of course as we are not infallible. I have come to the conclusion the message the same message of Al-Quran was given to all the messengers. Let me present an example of the falsehood we still believe, even so called Quran alone Muslims who still fall for false historical lies.

Quran surah 2729

The Queen of Sheba said, ?Counsellors, a gracious letter has been delivered to me.

Whats wrong with this verse translation? that most muslims still fall for? lets look at the arabic

Qalat ya ayyuha almalao innee olqiya ilayya kitabun kareemun

Any person with just a shred of knowledge of arabic language will tell you that Kitabun does not mean letter..but BOOK. Solomon had AL KITAB

moving further

2730

It is from Solomon, and it says, ?In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy,

Innahu min sulaymana wainnahu bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi

the only kitab I know that begins in this way is Al-Quran

2731

Alla taAAloo AAalayya watoonee muslimeena

That do not become high, mighty and dignified over me, and come to me (as) Moslems/submitters .

Muslims? yes because Islam was and is the only deen, and those who submit were always MUSLIM

2740

ut one of them who had some knowledge of the Scripture said, ?I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye.? When Solomon saw it set before him, he said, ?This is a favour from my Lord, to test whether I am grateful or not if anyone is grateful, it is for his own good, if anyone is ungrateful, then my Lord is self-sufficient and most generous.?

the word translated as scripture actually means "the book"

the Jinn had knowledge of Al-Kitab, therefore he knew of this event because he read it.

We see many cases in the Quran even in the story of Yusufs father who told his sons to enter Misr from the separate gates. and said Allah has given me knowledge of what you know not.

Allah knows best but the fact solomon was so badazzled when he saw the throne is I feel he read it in the Kitab Allah revealed to him BEFORE the event took place.

I dont see how Sheba can be so amazed by a glass floor in solomons court that she would give up idolatry. but she submitted because she saw something come to be

It makes perfect sense, Allah says its the SAME MESSAGE and his way DOES NOT CHANGE. It has been consistent from the get go. Allah says what is not from him is full of errors, and the bible and torah are full of them, even in original non english or latin translations. In the end Allah knows best but In my heart I dont believe Allah plays dice with the universe. I believe the message has been the very same revelation.

salam

Bravo Pazuzu keep it up! Allah shower his blessings upon you

salam

Not to fly to off topic, but I appreciate Pazuzus work and he has contributed a lot to dispel the false historical myths. I have seen in his previous threads people bashing his attempts like any sunni or shia would. but the truth is thr Quran is not a book of nations, but of guidance, and mentions names and geography. So any preconceived notions of whereabouts these stories took place can fall under scrutiny and serious critical analysis. Everyone seems to be trying to prove that the names of these things are just bastardizations. Many Muslims claim in the case of Nuah pbuh that the gods of Noahs people are bastardiations of other languages and not their real names. I beg to differ. Allah tells us the Quran is in a pure arabic tongue and cannot be forged. To my amazement I came across this ayat

Surah Noah verse 23

23. "And they have said (to each other), 'Abandon not your gods Abandon neither Wadd nor Suwa', neither Yaguth nor Ya'uq, nor Nasr

I thought let me check the names of these pagan deities of Noahs people and see what I cant find. I am unsure if brother pazuzu has ever come accross this but its one piece of a larger puzzle that only confirms his analysis.

"Wadd was a moon god worshipped in the Minaean kingdom (located in and around modern-day Yemen) of Southern Arabia from the fifth to first centuries BCE. His name meant Love and/or Friendship, and his sacred animal was the snake. "

(http//www.bythegods.net/post/556227042)

Yaguth

yaguth was a idol who was an object of contention among the tribes of Yemen and the name abd yaguth occurs in various parts of arabia, even in the tribe of Taghilib on the north eastern frontier, "had the shape of a lion"

Ya'uq and Suwa pagan deities of Yemen, inscriptions are still bound in temples and amulets in and around this region. Ya'uq was represented by a horse and Suwa was considered to be of antidilluvian times.

why do all these Gods of Noahs people occur in Yemen?

http//www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/The-Pagan-Arab-pantheon-2.aspx

Yes Wadd( not a bastardized word ), was the name of a pagan deity during the Minaen kingdom in and around modern day ----->Yemen<------- Not Iraq....

Keep up the work brother Pazuzu. SALAM!

Tung Shqipe si je?

there are so many theories for where Muhammad actually came from lol. I like to say Allah knows best, in the end righteousness is not turning your faces east or west, but in our actions, our piety and deeds. certain things we may never clearly know, due to the insurmountable amount of corruption of history, from all sides. This is why Allah says "the later generations are in dispute" and "Allah will show them wherein they disputed, and the truth of the matter". So in the end people can dispute until the cows come home, all presenting their evidence, granted we shouldnt turn a blind eye, and of course examine the evidence, and clearly see which has stronger supporting evidence. But even then Allah knows best.

salams