I wanted to clarify that Albruni quoted an aayat but fail to understand
"4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment."

First part "Those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers" First of all we DO believe in ALL messengers And this part talks about all Allah's Messengers not only ONE.

Salaam brother Khan,

Since you request to correct as you are wrong......
First you need to know what is belief ,belief is some thing want we follow and I don't think you follow ALL or even Mohammed as you denie hadiths and denies to follow Mohammed and denies the Quran which ask to obey the messenger.We belive both Quran and Hadiths ,We follow the hadiths of Abraham and we do haj as instructed by Mohammed , We follow all the messangers as instructed in quran and in hadiths.

Second part "and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers" Again, not only Messenger but Messengers . And the important part is, we also believe in "Maiyn yuti-irRasoola fakhat ata'Allah"... that means we are not making seperations, but people who believe in Hadith says that AlQuraan from Allah and AlHadith from Messenger... They are making separations.

Third part "and say, We believe in some and disbelieve in some" We never say so, we say, we believe in the complete book of Allah as a complete guidance for the whole mankind. But people who believe in Hadith say this, when you ask how to perform Salaat, they say some are in AlQuraan and rest details are in Hadith. Thus, they don't believe in any order of Allah completely... be it a Salaat, Zakaat, Hajj, Sadaqaa, Saum, etc... We say we believe in all... but the followers of Hadith say AlQuraan does not contain everything in details, so they deny some of it.

That doesn't mean the separation between the messengers but the separation between Allaha and messangers which is proved by the third part which says ("We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that?)you cant adopt the way of adam by marrying your own sister because its prohibited ,the verse mean that you want to make separation saying only we follow what is in quran and denies the hadiths and wants to adopt a way in between by following the number structure which is not proven by Quran or Hadiths.

Forth part "those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment" No comments. You can understand it... inshaAllah

May Allah guide us all towards the correct path that He has chosen for us.

Regards,
A.Albruni

JK- Correct so how do we know which are the true inspired statements of the messenger and which are the false ones? The true ones must be contained in a completely preserved scripture with no errors i.e. Quran as ive mentioned many times before.

Salam Brother,

If he said about the religion is false then it would be corrected immediately so there is no way that the false information can be recorded moreover in his life time whatever mistakes he made is corrected by god thus been recorded. I have no doughty that the Quran is preserved scripture with no errors but I have also shown how hadtis are preserved and the need to follow it. Jk its the matter of acceptance ,You accept Quran and to understand Quran you take number structure , I accept What god says in Quran and Mohammed says in Hadthis.You say Hadith are not preserved and fabricated , I say its preserved and we can find which hadiths are fabricated and follow the authenticated only.

JK- Wheres your proof for this? Ive never read that in the Quran that theyll remain messengers forever. Your just speculating here.

I have Quoted from quran many times Quran says Moses,Noha,Abraham,Ismail and Isa as messangers though they are not in this world
And Quran say in the day of judgment the messangers will be assembled so the messangers remain messagers forever.

JK- Which "scholars" and which hadith collections are authentic according to you? Surely Bukhari and Muslim cannot be authentic entirely since there are many absurd hadith in them like dipping the fly, black cumin being means to cure all diseases, killing for blasphemy/apostasy, seasons being formed due to hell fire taking two breaths etc etc.

I never denied that Bukhari and Muslim are having fabricated hadiths ,yes they do but we can identify those fabrication and we have to follow only the authentic hadiths.

JK- Partly BUT we ALSO have archaeological evidence showing the Quranic manuscript very close to the Prophet's lifetime is almost identical to the one today.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur%27an#Oldest_copy_known_today
This is not the case for hadith which cannot be traced back further than 200 years after the Prophet.

Yes I have too believe that the quran was compiled after 50 apx after the death of prophet and the hadiths are recorded after 150 years
but that doesn't make any difference the find the truth we can put the authentic hadits in test of science ,logical,and contraindication which we apply on quran to believe the word of god and you will find the hadits pass those test as quran did.

JK- As i mentioned above this order has been maintained and theres both archaeological and numerical evidence to support this. None of such exists for any of the ahadith books.

I do agree that Quran and Hadith do have archaeological evidence as you have mention above with little difference of years but there is no numerical evidence in quran to support this which the prophet haven't thought.

GOD Bless!

The answer is simply NO..

Salam,

Well the answer is very much Yes and the proof's are hadths on how to perform sala , How many rakaths , How much Zakath we have to give , Can we eat human , dog , flesh , Can we drink alcohol etc.,

Peace,
A.Albruni

Quran?s structure is one proof (arrangement of ayats) and was explained by reciting it as such. Similar to the big bang creation of universe and things we've yet to discover.

arrangement of ayats are not done by the prophet its done in usman's era,so how you comment on that.
so the question still remain unanswered (Why did the prophet not explained the structure in Quran when he was the one who has to explain it if its true)

Sure it?s logical ? BINARY, EVEN/ODD, TRUE/FALSE, IF THEN ELSE.

That is the key difference between humans and animals -- we have the capacity to see it...

I have not asked the explanation of logic ,I have shown you why your answers are not logical.

My Question 1.Why to want to divide the Quran in 2 parts each 57 - Where is the proof to do so in quran ?
Your Ans http//www.simetrikkitap.com/subject1.pdf

My Ans I read the whole book but there is not a single verse which talks about the division of quran,the author just divide the quran because he wants to bring the desire result ,If it wants he might have break it in several parts to bring the desire result i.e divisible by 19

My Question 2.Is this a right way to calculate ?

E.G If you have barrowed money from me

Day Morning Noon Night
1 10 20 30
2 10 20 30
3 10 20 30

Total 30 60 90

and if I ask you to pay 306090 will it be fare ? Will anybody accept? Is this the right way to trust Quran.

Your AnsNo idea why you posted the above, this is about Quran?s structure not finance.

My Ans I know you have no idea that's why you depend on others and fails to thing logical.Let it be quran structure is this the way to sum and add thigs,How will you add or sum numbers whatever the method is.even in binary calculation (0 , 1 ) We have LCD , HCD methods and nowhere that a sum and adding is done as you did in your format.

My Question 3.You have mention 6555 = 19 x 345 what about other numbers 6757/19? 3126/19? 3631/19? 3110/19? 6034/19? 2924/19? 6236/19? 12791/19? why you haven?t taken those numbers?Is it because it will not divisible by 19 ,please be fare on your part.

Your Ans That?s how checksums work and NOT everything has to divisible by 19. When you type a post; algorithms do a checksum, send data along with checksum, and after arrival at the other end the checksum is computed/compared to see if the message arrived error free.

My Ans If you say only one number from the list will be divisible by 19 and that's how the checksum works and is the same way the quran is guarded then you are fooling yourself ,Everybody can find from any book that some number are divisible by 19 and for this we don't need any Blue Jinn/Gene

Do you see the perfect symmetry?
It?s like looking at a beautifully constructed building to house the words?

Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd

1............7...............8............8.............
2..........286..........288..........288..........
3..........200..........203.....................20 3
....
110..........3..........113.....................11 3
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........

6555.......6236....12791........6236......6555

1788 Say "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

Perhaps I?ll ask the guys who run Blue Jinn/Gene to try and produce a similar structure?

The structure it self is not beautiful but you have arranged it in such a way that it looks beautiful
you can check with your original posting and check how it looks like.The Christians also claims that a numerical structure is in bible should we believe it - I say No

My Question 4. Moreover when you enter the S+V value you keep changing the position to first ,middle and last why to want to change the S+V position - its just because you want to bring the result as you desire?

Your Ans No, look closely its 1st checksum 1st, mid checksum 2nd, last checksum 3rd ? perfect logic!

6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349

3110 6034 2924 = 19 x 16371596996

6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989

My Ans Is it logical that every time we take 1st checksum 1st, mid checksum 2nd, last checksum 3rd - No it depends on the function and the formula you are using and when i ask what function or Procedure or formula you use to calculate the structure of the quran - your answers is you are still working on it.Please don't try excrement in religion which is not thought by prophet that will only bring confusion.

4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

Your Question Why post this verse?
It pertains to those who believe Quran missing verses ?idle tales? and goat nonsense.

My Ans We should not believe in idle tales or fabricated goat nonsense and we are not,but you The quote is given because you are trying to follow thing which are not thought by messengers and you believe in some and disbelieve in some and trying following your own desire and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers.

Peace
A.Albruni

Peace Albruni

Thanks for the reply!

Please read Layth's article on Calendars and Time. http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htm

Below is a summary of what has been explained above

The year according to the Scripture is Luni-Solar (1712, 105).

The months begin with the full moon (2189, 3639).

The solar year has 4 markers that can be measured (2 solstices, 2 equinoxes).

After a count of 12 lunar months, if a 13th full moon appears before the winter solstice, then such a month is to be ignored and counted as 'month zero'. This average occurrence of this extra month is 7 times every 19 solar years.

(I removed the part about Laylat AlQadr and Ramadhan because that is a different topic).

Salam,

I made it clear from Quran that the sun is to show the time and the moon to show the days,We do things according to quran and Hadiths.

Albruni,

I am not separating between God and His messenger in any way. Unfortunately, you still believe that Hadiths are the words of our messenger. They are not.

When someone disproves a Hadith to you... or indeed shows that it contradicts Quran, you will not see it, because you have the firm belief that the hadiths are the true word of your messenger and can not be wrong. If you open your eyes a little and see that the true words of your messenger are in the Quran, you will feel no discomfort at all disregarding the words of Bukhary and others.

Ramzi , sorry but you are wrong If any Hadith Contradicts with quran we should not believe it even its in Bukhary ,There are Hadiths in Bukhary which Contradicts with Quran and we have to leave it for e.g the one shown in your eg the goat eaten story.

I have already reply about the authenticity of that Hadith in my other post that we are not suppose to follow it.

What about when we get to the lashings for adultey?

1 Surah Number 24, Ayah Number 2
You shall lash the fornicatress and the fornicator each with a hundred lashes. In the religion of Allah, let no tenderness for them seize you if you believe in Allah and the Last Day; and let their punishment be witnessed by a party of believers.

God did not differentiate between married and unmarried adulterer's? Or did he? Am I missing a verse or something? (Honest question, no sarcasm)

Brother,

Yes, God did differentiate between married and unmarried adulterer's and to prove this we don't need Hadtis we can prove with Quran itself, its all about the understanding of the quran.

If you notice the word usage ,you can find the difference.

if you disprove one hadith, you have to disregard them all. It is not for you to CHOOSE what to follow nor for a scholar or imam to choose for you!

It is hard, and I am struggling. but I ask God for patience and to show me the Straight Path.

Brother , As i have mention in my other posts the recorders did collected the hadtis which are fabricated and authentic so that no body can add hadthis in the feature and with little knowledge of hadtis we can identify which is authentic.Dont think we are following the scholar or imam we are following the word of the messanger who deliver the message of god.

I pray to god to show you , me and other to the straight path.

Salam,
A.Albruni

The Quran even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart and uses checksums same as computer systems to ensure the message arrives intact, in order, and uncorrupted with exactly 114 chapters and 6236 verses including all of chapter 91-129...

Quran - 893

WaalshshafAAi waalwatri
And/by the even, and the odd.

60 Even verses = 30 even-even + 30 odd-even

54 Odd verses = 27 odd-odd + 27 even-odd

Surah #Verses S+V 57 Even 57 Odd

1............7............8............8...........
2..........286..........288..........288...........
3..........200..........203.....................203
4..........176..........180..........180...........
5..........120..........125.....................125
6..........165..........171.....................171
7..........206..........213.....................213
8...........75...........83......................83
9..........129..........138..........138...........
10.........109..........119.....................119
11.........123..........134..........134...........
12.........111..........123.....................123
13..........43...........56...........56...........
14..........52...........66...........66...........
15..........99..........114..........114...........
16.........128..........144..........144...........
17.........111..........128..........128...........
18.........110..........128..........128...........
19..........98..........117.....................117
20.........135..........155.....................155
21.........112..........133.....................133
22..........78..........100..........100...........
23.........118..........141.....................141
24..........64...........88...........88...........
25..........77..........102..........102...........
26.........227..........253.....................253
27..........93..........120..........120...........
28..........88..........116..........116...........
29..........69...........98...........98...........
30..........60...........90...........90...........
31..........34...........65......................65
32..........30...........62...........62..........
33..........73..........106..........106..........
34..........54...........88...........88..........
35..........45...........80...........80..........
36..........83..........119.....................119
37.........182..........219.....................219
38..........88..........126..........126...........
39..........75..........114..........114..........
40..........85..........125.....................125
41..........54...........95......................95
42..........53...........95......................95
43..........89..........132..........132...........
44..........59..........103.....................103
45..........37...........82...........82...........
46..........35...........81......................81
47..........38...........85......................85
48..........29...........77......................77
49..........18...........67......................67
50..........45...........95......................95
51..........60..........111.....................111
52..........49..........101.....................101
53..........62..........115.....................115
54..........55..........109.....................109
55..........78..........133.....................133
56..........96..........152..........152...........
57..........29...........86...........86...........

1-57...................6757.....3126......3631 <--------1st checksum 1st half
6757 3126 3631 = 19 x 35564803349

58..........22...........80...........80..........
59..........24...........83......................83
60..........13...........73......................73
61..........14...........75......................75
62..........11...........73......................73
63..........11...........74...........74..........
64..........18...........82...........82..........
65..........12...........77......................77
66..........12...........78...........78..........
67..........30...........97......................97
68..........52..........120..........120..........
69..........52..........121.....................121
70..........44..........114..........114..........
71..........28...........99......................99
72..........28..........100..........100..........
73..........20...........93......................93
74..........56..........130..........130..........
75..........40..........115.....................115
76..........31..........107.....................107
77..........50..........127.....................127
78..........40..........118..........118..........
79..........46..........125.....................125
80..........42..........122..........122..........
81..........29..........110..........110..........
82..........19..........101.....................101
83..........36..........119.....................119
84..........25..........109.....................109
85..........22..........107.....................107
86..........17..........103.....................103
87..........19..........106..........106..........
88..........26..........114..........114..........
89..........30..........119.....................119
90..........20..........110..........110..........
91..........15..........106..........106..........
92..........21..........113.....................113
93..........11..........104..........104..........
94...........8..........102..........102..........
95...........8..........103.....................103
96..........19..........115.....................115
97...........5..........102..........102..........
98...........8..........106..........106..........
99...........8..........107.....................107
100.........11..........111.....................111
101.........11..........112..........112..........
102..........8..........110..........110..........
103..........3..........106..........106..........
104..........9..........113.....................113
105..........5..........110..........110..........
106..........4..........110..........110..........
107..........7..........114..........114..........
108..........3..........111.....................111
109..........6..........115.....................115
110..........3..........113.....................113
111..........5..........116..........116..........
112..........4..........116..........116..........
113..........5..........118..........118..........
114..........6..........120..........120..........

58-114............6034.......3110.......2924 <-------- middle checksum 2nd half
3110 6034 2924 = 19 x 16371596996

Totals 1-114

Surah... #Verses... S+V... 57 Even... 57 Odd
1.............7............8............8.......... .
114..........6..........120.........120..........

6555.......6236.....12791...6236.....6555 <-------- last checksum totals

6236 6555 12791 = 19 x 328245026989

6555 = 19 x 345

12791 is a prime number as is 19 which makes the Quran structure unique.

There appears to be a similar even/odd binary structure for each individual chapter with number of words as well which I'll need to investigate further although the above should be simple and sufficient enough as proof.

Salam Brother,

To prove the Quran is God word it doesnt need any Checksums method there are various signs of god in quran which prove that the quran is god word and if there is a checksum method then why the propet not explained it?

Even the calcualation what you have done is not logical.

1.Why to want to divide the Quran in 2 parts each 57 - Where is the proof to do so in quran ?

2.Is this a right way to calculate ?

E.G If you have barrowed money from me

Day Morning Noon Night
1 10 20 30
2 10 20 30
3 10 20 30

Total 30 60 90

and if I ask you to pay 306090 will it be fare ? Will anybody accept? Is this the right way to trust Quran.

3.You have mention 6555 = 19 x 345 what about other numbers 6757/19? 3126/19? 3631/19? 3110/19? 6034/19? 2924/19? 6236/19? 12791/19? why you haven?t taken those numbers?Is it because it will not divisible by 19 ,please be fare on your part.

4. Moreover when you enter the S+V value you keep changing the position to first ,middle and last why to want to change the S+V position - its just because you want to bring the result as you desire?

5.Are you going to follow the same structure i.e. take the chapter divide in half ,sum the odd and even number etc.,I strongly dought you will not because you can't - It means your are following your own desire or blind following.

4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

Salam.

Peace "albruni",

JK- The example of the title "father" is very different from the title "messenger". Muhammad wasnt even a messenger 24/7 as can be seen in 3337. If he had been a messenger at tht point then Zeid mustve obeyed that statement but obviously it was not meant to be so.
ALSO dont you believe that Muhammad was the last messenger? Because here you are saying that messengers before Muhammad will be messengers when he they come again as in Jesus. So youve just spoken against one of the basic dogmas in hadith "islam".
LAST but not least if hadith are protected then there should be a COMPLETE scripture containing only sahih hadith preserved by GOD so we dont have to pick and choose. THAT IS NOT THE CASE as i can point out a bunch of absurd and scientifically inaccurate hadith from Sahih Bukhari and Muslim allegedly the two most authentic collections. GOD Bless!

Salam Brother,

father is a person who is blessed with a child and as a human being is blessed with prophet hood is a messenger.

3337 being a messenger and humanbeing he did small mistakes which has been corrected by god - Its not that messengers will not do mistakes they did as all humanbeing but not major sins as they are protected by god otherwise there is no need of sending a human as a messenger, The messenger have no divine knowledge or they can do on there own, its god who teach them to deliver it to the mankind.

Not only Jesus all the messengers will remain messengers even in hereafter, Its a honor given by god to the messengers do believe that Muhammad was the last messenger as i stated before in my post and Jesus will also remain as a messenger but the difference is he will not deliver any new message as the religion is complete and there is no need to add in the religion.

Hadith - Its a way of preservation, if you only compile the truth then it will easy for anybody to add.
The scholars collected all the Hadith so that no body can blame that they have left some Hadith.

For the questions about the compilation of Quran you said you can prove with the numerical pattern based on no.19 show me how its correct?

The Questions are - Where does it say in the Quran that Surah Al Baqarah must come after Al Fatihah?
Where does it say in the Quran that Surah An Nas (Qulauzubirabinnas) must be the last Surah (chapter) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?alhamdulillahirabilalamin(0101)? must come before ?Ar Rahman Ar Rahim(0102)??
Where does it say in the Quran that there must be 114 Surah (Chapters) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?Qulhuwallahuahad (11201) must come before ?Allahusamad(11202)?

Peace Albruni,

Ask yourself these questions....

How come the Islamic year is 354 days? Which is 11 days shorter than the solar year?

1712
We appointed the night and the day as two signs. Then, We blotted out the sign of the night and made the sign of the day to see, so that you seek the bounty of your Lord and that you know the number of years and the reckoning. And We have clearly distinguished everything.

Can Ramadan be in winter some years? (1996-1999)

And in the summer some years? (2008-2012)

Peace Ramzi,

The following Quranic verse entails the use of the lunar calendar as the calendar to be followed by Muslims

"He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon a light and measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning." (Surah10 Verse 5)

"They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say They are but signs to make fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage." (Surah 2 Verse 189)

The number of months in each year as directed by Allah was to be 12 as shown in the following verse

"Lo! The number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth." (Surah 9 Verse 36)

The Qur'an,states that time should be reckoned by the moon,Thus we do the same.

Moreover the solar year is not 365.25 days long but 365.2422 days long. This tiny extra fraction of .0078 days a year adds up to approximately three days every four centuries.On timescales of thousands of years, the Gregorian calendar falls behind the seasons drastically because the slowing down of the Earth's rotation makes each day slightly longer over time while the year maintains a more uniform duration. The equinox will occur earlier than now by a number of days approximately equal to ^2. This is a problem that the Gregorian calendar shares with any rule-based calendar.

Does the concept of different sects make sense? I believe they differ over who to follow? Sunnis idolize Muhammed, and the shiites do their 12 imams and the family of Muhammed.

Look at the state of the Islamic countries today!!?!?!?

No human rights,

Stone-age laws!

Racism!

Sexual Discrimintation!

Fighting between sunnis and shiites.

Shall I give you examples? I can cite examples that occur today, in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. I'm sure you are aware of them!

If muslims are indeed following the Straight Path, their state of living would by far exceed the excellence in Europe which is now one community. Working together to make better living conditions for their citizens.

Unfortunately, because Shaitan leads their (European Union) lives, they will cause their own destruction; like

They do not pay Sadaqah (form of Zakat)

Giving homosexuals the rights to adopt kids.

Their corruption will come from inside their own community.

The Islamic counties' corruption has already started.

Hundreds of thousands are fleeing to Europe and States where they are treated like HUMAN BEINGS. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion.

I can go on and on.

Ask yourself those questions.

I hope you are not truly happy with the way things are running/going in Islamic countries these days, and especially the Arab counties.

The Straight Path is far from this.

The Straight Path does not ask us to choose what we follow (choose Sahih over Weak)

The Straight Path does not ask humans (scholars) to decide what we need to do

The Straight Path is detailed in the one Book of Guidance that we have.

I am not going to go into detail in the discussion because I know that if you open your mind you will come to the right conclusion!

Well, What you have said is right..... But it doesn?t mean that following the hadhis has made this sects even the Quran alone followers have different of opinion ...Thing is that what we have follow is to decide be almighty god and as he have clearly mentioned to follow the word of god (Quran) and the explanation given to Quran by the messenger(Not by his own will but a separate revelation by god apart from Quran) (Hadhis)

(2527)The day will come when the transgressor will bite his hands (in anguish) and say, "Alas, I wish I had followed the path with the messenger.

461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.

4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

Ask yourself these questions

Do you want to make separation between Allaha and his messenger by saying you believe in Quran and disbelieve in Hadhis ?

and for your question the answer is - Those who idolize Muhammad or following there own desire they are indeed in a wrong path and they will face hell.

I follow the word of god (Quran) and follow the teachings of the messenger of God (Hadhis) which is preserved in a scientific way.

"Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error." .

May God Guide us in the right path...

Peace "albruni",

JK- Yes BUT the Quran says that in A PARTICULAR CONTEXT WHICH CLEARLY REFERS TO PAST EVENTS. How acn Moses be a messenger now? If that is true then you hadithis followers should accept that Jesus, who according to you is still alive, is also a Prophet and a messenger still hence making Muhammad not the last of either and thus contradicting yourself.
As for me agreeing that Muhammad received other revelation from GOD that doesdnt mean GOD has MEANT THOSE for us. Those are logically only for his time OTHERWISE WHY DIDNT GOD PRESERVE THEM IN A SEPARATE PROTECTED SCRIPTURE OR EVEN INCLUDE THOSE IN THE QURAN? It is very easy for GOD to have done so and the fact that He didnt shows that it is of no significance to us. This is my basic qs to all sectarians. GOD Bless!

Salam Jonny,
If my father died it doesn?t mean that he is not my father , Though the Quran refers to past events it doesn?t mean that he will not be a messenger anymore... Of course we do agree Jesus was a messenger, is a messenger and will be remain as messenger ,Muhammad is the seal of Prophet so there are no more messenger but that doesn?t mean that a messenger before Muhammad will not be the messenger when he again come. Messenger is a person who comes with message from god since the religion is complete there is no need to bring any new message.
How can you say that those revelation are not meant for us ??? It is protected in Scriptures (Hadhis), which god has done. Your basic qs are baseless. God Bless!

GOD thus explains His revelations for you, that you may understand

We thus explain the revelations, and point out the ways of the wicked.

This is the straight path to your Lord. We have explained the revelations for people who take heed.

We thus explain the revelations, to enable the people to redeem themselves

What do these verses mean to you? Is it not clear that GOD is the One who explains?

This is a scientific way to protect the hadith? So my neighbor said, that her friend said, that her uncle told her, that his boss told him, that last week he heard about it from a grocer, etc. etc. Now, keep in mind that my neighbor is righteous. I know that for sure. And, I think her friend is pretty good, and her uncle, maybe. I don't know about the boss and the grocer is a total stranger. Where is the authenticity?

Peace,
dotty

Salam Brother,

Please read my posts I too agree that GOD is the One who explains. God explain to prophet , Prophet explain to people ..outline is said in quran and prophet has teach us how to do it which is preserved in Hadhis and about the authenticity the biography of all narrators are preserved so that we can check the authenticity if there is no biography of a narrators then we are not going to follow it.
Where does it say in the Quran that Surah Al Baqarah must come after Al Fatihah?
Where does it say in the Quran that Surah An Nas (Qulauzubirabinnas) must be the last Surah (chapter) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?alhamdulillahirabilalamin(0101)? must come before ?Ar Rahman Ar Rahim(0102)??
Where does it say in the Quran that there must be 114 Surah (Chapters) in the Quran?
Where does it say in the Quran that ?Qulhuwallahuahad (11201) must come before ?Allahusamad(11202)?

The arrangement of the Quran is a proof that we have to follow the hadhis.

Peace "albruni",

JK- 531,2,3 is only in reference to Muhammad being a messenger and all relevant statements he made as a messenger for all times are only to be found in the Quran as ive stated before. The Quran makes this clear in the following verse
Recall that you said to the one who was blessed by GOD, and blessed by you, "Keep your wife and reverence GOD," and you hid inside yourself what GOD wished to proclaim. Thus, you feared the people, when you were supposed to fear only GOD....

GOD Bless!

I have explaind this in my resent post ........
Quran says Moses as messenger though he died and Mohammed is also the messenger till the world end.
Even you agreed that he recived other than quran from god , then why you are not willing to follow it???

God Bless

Peace "albruni",

JK- Yes and the messenger's explanations which are also GOD inspired ARE IN THE QURAN. Examples
They ask you about the phases of the moon! SAY, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.
They ask you about menstruation SAY, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."

Example of statements being further explained
Say(messenger is to say), "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat* of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Verse is further detailed by this verse which is logically also uttered via mouth of messenger inspired by GOD

Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

Salam Jonney,

Why are you wasting time in righting thing which we both agree ??? I never denied that Quran explains certain thing but the same Quran also referring to prophet for more details

Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.
Then it is We who will explain it.

Allah says in the Qur'an (Surah 751 that the Qur'an will be recited. But then in the verse right after (verse 119) it is also said that then the Qur'an will be explained. If the Qur'an is self-explanatory then the only thing that needs to be done is reciting it out. However, in verse 19 the function of reciting is done and then in the verse right after, the function of explaining is done. Clearly these are two different tasks, which means that just reading the Qur'an alone does not give you the full explanation required. It has to be explained through some other source. What is that other source?

JK- Yes the Quran is for all times and contains all the relevant statements uttered by the messenger. In his ordinary life Muhammad even uttered false statements like in 3337 saying "keep your wife". Also the word "'alameen" only refers to all the people whilst the person is living. Here examples from the Quran

Yes he did say 3337 but it has been corrected by almighty god and this is the proof that Allaha will not let him in the same state. I have already explain this two times let me tell you for the third time "In some cases, however, the origin of the orders is not a revelation. They are based originally on the Holy Prophet's own analysis of the affairs. But they are confirmed by a revelation later on. This confirmation again is of two kinds sometimes it occurs in explicit terms, whereby the decision of the Holy Prophet is upheld by a revelation, and sometimes it happens to be an implied confirmation. If Allah Almighty does not object to a certain act of the Holy Prophet, it necessarily implies that the act has been confirmed by Him.

The reason is obvious. A prophet of Allah, being a spokesman of His pleasure, remains under a constant divine supervision. If he says something or does something, which is not in complete consonance with Allah?s pleasure, he is always warned about it. In a number of verses, the Holy Qur?an has expressed Allah?s disapproval of some acts done or intended by the Holy Prophet. Thus, no act of the Holy Prophet has ever gone unchecked.

Thus, whatever he says or does in his capacity of a messenger, and no revelation comes to the contrary, it is deemed to be an implied confirmation of his saying or act."

• What do you mean "whilst the person is living" if he is alameen when he is alive then he will be alameen after his death as well because after he dies he cant do bad deeds.

The angels said, "O Mary, GOD has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you from all the women(nisaa minal ALAMEEN).
So does it mean Mary was even better than the Prophet's wives?
Or
And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people(alal ALAMEEN).
This verse which starts from verse 83 in context does NOT include Muhammad so are all these Prophets greater than him?
OR
Peace be upon Noah amongst all the peoples(ALAMEEN).
So does it mean Noah is blessed even more than Muhammad?

Yes Mary is better than the prophet's wives and all the messengers are alameen by the grace of god we are not suppose to distinguish between them except in which god has uphold.

JK- Following the messenger is following his true statements which we know for sure he made as a messenger being inspired by GOD and those are ONLY TO BE FOUND in the Quran. As to the rest of the hadith GOD says

The revelation of this scripture is from GOD, the Almighty, Most Wise.
...
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In WHICH HADITH other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

WHICH HADITH, other than this, do they uphold?

GOD Bless!

You are referring to the verses which talk about the followers who believe in there ancients and not following the word of god. what you fail to understand is God refers to follow the messenger which is also reveled by god

In 592 it says "Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil) if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner."
In 6412 it says "And obey ALLAH and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then Our Messenger is responsible only for conveying the Message clearly."

The Prophet not only has to deliver the message but he has to deliver it clearly. The Arabs can understand the Quran as it's in there own language but still it's been said to convey clearly because obviously the Prophet had to explain it to them and elaborate it to the people just as the next two verses indicate...

Salam,

What you call "explaining" I call ADDING to the word of Allah.

Salam,
Arnab

Salam ,

Yes its adding to the word of allah by allah because quran say so

531,2,3 - your companion is neither astray, neither errs, nor does he speak out of desire

Peace

Peace "albruni",

JK- No verses youve quoted show that wer to follow extra Quranic ahadith. Infact the Quran already mentions the relevant and authentic sayings of the messenger one of which is
The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have made this Quran of no account."
THUS if you want to follow the messenger youd have to look into the Quran TOO and not extra Quranic sources. The same is true if you want to look at all the relevant hadith of various other messengers mentioned in the Quran WHICH HAVE ALSO BEEN CITED IN THE QURAN. We dont need to go to other sources for that either. GOD Bless!

Salam jonny,

Once again for your reference I will quote it again

The task of the Prophet to deliver and explain Clearly

"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them."

"Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error." .

We can not limit the Prophethood to 23 years because Quran syas

"We did not send you except as Mercy for all creatures."

"We have not sent you except as a Messenger to all mankind, giving them glad tidings and warning them against sin."

If we disobey Allaha (Quran) and His Messenger (Explanation) we will be in wrong path because Qran says so

"If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong path."

"He that obeys Allah and His Messenger has already attained the great victory." .

Indeed he our beloved messenger will say that because you have disobey Quran by disobeying the Hadhis

(2527)The day will come when the transgressor will bite his hands (in anguish) and say, "Alas, I wish I had followed the path with the messenger.

461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.

4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

May God Guide us in the right path...

First I want to say, that I don't accept these hadith because I feel they distract from the REAL message.

Salam Brother,

Hadith are not to distract from the REAL message but to explain it more clearly for E.g. (Sala)

Secondly, what is the point of having both authentic and weak hadith (for the ones who follow them)?

What was the purpose of collecting and putting to print the weak hadith in the first place?

It?s a very scientific way to protect the Hadith. Only when they have recorded both the authentic and weak Hadith nobody can add new Hadith, moreover when the record a weak Hadith they have mentioned why it?s weak, with that we can also check the biography of the narrators to see the authenticity

Peace "albruni",

JK- This is TOTALLY INCORRECT. Nobody believes what scientists tell us BASED ON TRUST ALONE. Infact their results are published in journals WHICH EVERY LAYMAN can watch, accept if he wills and deny it if he/she fells theres something wrong with it. What rational people do though is compare the findings with other independent researchers and see whether theres a conversion of evidence. Thats exactly what i did whilst reading the "omega point theory". It matched with my own independent research and that of some other bros here including bro "Arnold Yasin". Regarding hadith what weve heard so far from you is very far from science.

JK- Ill be waiting GW. GOD Bless!

Assalamualaikum,

Brother JK so far what we both agreed is that Prophet has received other revelation than quran but you don?t want to add those revaluations to quran because you don?t find any solid proof for it........ But those who can read this discussion can clearly understand that I have shown sufficient proof for the authenticity for the hadhis

461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.

I see you avert with disgust when I say Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle

4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

And you say you believe in some and disbelieve in some, desiring to adopt a way in between this and that

Quran says Moses as messenger though he died alike Mohammed is also the messenger till the world end.

Salam Brother,

When ever we say somthing as a scientific evidence ,we are not the one who does the research or we personally haven't look , smell or feel it.We trust the person who did the research and we accept it.We simply believe that its true because so many people have evidence the research likewise the hadhis are also preserved in a very scientific manner,its just been not bring up to the western world.You have mention a book (the omega point theory) you were not there when it was return or when he made the research or you are not a part in any of his creation then why to believe that book.The chain of narration , the history of the people who narrated , The recording of every hadhis is very much scientific.

Inshallaha i will reply the rest in my next post, since i am bit busy with my work i am not able to reply immediate.

Peace "albruni"

JK- I believe i explained this in the other post that the Quran is self explanatory and only the Quran has scientific evidence of being accurate and consistent.

I too have explained in my other post that Prophets has been send to explain the Quran and the explanation is preserved in hadith with highly accurate and scientific manner.

JK- It is nonsense to claim that GOD taught some explicit ritualistic prayer to the Prophet outside the Quran. What is meant here is ACCORDING TO THE NATURE OF HUMANS. When wer using our hearts and minds to focus on GOD it is He Who is etaching us and in peace times wed naturally prolong our prayers and in times of war and uproar wed shorten them. Also our underatdning of prayer continuously evolves and so GOD is continuously teaching us what we never knew. Many articles have been written on salat at this forum. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13270.0

Brother, it?s not me who claims, I have mention the verse were god claims so please beware of your wordings. Interestingly you have no proof for this ?NATURE OF HUMANS?.I don?t find any relevant article so you read all the articles and reply me back.

JK- I explained the term BYN in one of my posts above already. Please refer to that. Regarding obedience to GOD and His messenger ive already shown that after the death of the physical messenger the Quran itself becomes the messenger.

Since I have replied to this in my last post , I will wait for your answer

JK- GOD's sends messengers in the language of the people so that they can understand the message, obviously. And no GOD did not send send humans as messengers to be taken as a model. The reason IMO as to why he sends human messengers is to test whether the people would beleive in Him even if Hed send a human just like themselves or not. Malaaika or the universal forces of GOD are not send down because then the TEST WOULD BE OVER as is evident from this verse
We do not send down the malaaikah except for specific functions. Otherwise, no one will be respited.
GOD could also make everyone beleive instantly if He wanted as stated in another verse of the Quran. So this nothing but a test.

If the people can understand the message then it?s easy to send a book as the disbelievers preferred.
If I ask, how you say RK is a messenger? Your answer might be that he came to explain the numbers embedded in Quran, which I personally don?t agree

Peace "albruni",

JK- The separate revelation or rather insiration as i said was for him and for his time only. Theres no way we can proof what that is right now and should GOD have wanted us to follow that He would have included that in the Quran. And it has defintely nothing to do with explanining the Quran. The Quran EXPLAINS ITSELF and this is evident from the many verses which repeat the same evident but adding more details.

Salam brother,

Brother don't get confused.. You did agree that there was separate revelation for the messenger. I have explained from quran stating that propet Mohamed was send to all mankind so the revelation will not limit to his life time.
To prove that GOD wants to follow , i have given many verses which ask to follow the messanger also showed how scientifically its preserved , I showed you the verse were GOD says he will explain the Quran to prophet.
So please don't run in circles.we are hear to understand the true religion not to prove ourself.

JK- Ok tell me what about the stoning verse for married adulterers which according to the hadith was EATEN BY A GOAT. Aint this a sick joke of the scholars accepting this? They claim that GOD is able to abrogate His verses by a goat even. So now we ask if that verse is supposed to be abrgated, why do Muslims still follow and practive it? Theyr clearly contradicting themselves here on this issue.
Also the Quran mentions "la ilaaha ilallah" four/five times BUT nowhere in connection with "Muhammad rasoolullah" even in the very sura named Muhammad verse 19. This is considered the most important pillar in Islam and yet it is not stated in the Quran. I challenge you to show me the shahaadah ads you Muslims recite it in the Quran. IMO that even contradicts the Quran because it clearly states to make NO DISTINCTION between the messengers and by repeatedly mentioning his name along with GOD's to the exclusion of all others your doing just that. GOD Bless!

Its a valid argumentI also read the whole article http//www.quranic.org/quran_article/26/rajm_stoning_to_death.htmk
This problem arise due to lack of knowledge about approaching Hadith.Let me brief about this

1. Although the stoning punishment was invented in Abbasid era, it was never unanimously approved. The contemporary Sunnah scholars admit that Al-Mu?tazala and Rejectionist (Khawarej) rejected the stoning. (Sayyed Sabiq, Sunnah Scholarship, 2/347, the Encyclopedia of Scholarship based on the four dogmas, 5/69 written by Abdel-Rahman Al-Jazzeeri).
2. The oldest narrations about stoning were mentioned in Nowata of Malik in a narration by Mohammad Ibn Hassan Sheibani. The narration started as (Malik told us that Yahya Ibn Saeed heard Saeed Ibn Mossayyab said When Omar Ibn Al-Khattab came from Mina ?etc). That means the original narrator of this anecdote was Saeed Ibn Mossayyab. He claimed that Omar delivered an oration claiming the existence of the stoning verse in Qur?an, but it was omitted. However, Ibn Mossayyab was two years old when Omar was assassinated. How can a crawling baby telling stories about Omar. So, it is impossible for Ibn Mossayyab to be the narrator. Also, it is impossible for Omar to say something like that. It means that Omar accused the Qur?an of being forged and this is blasphemy. God, Almighty, said ?We revealed this Qur?an, and we are protecting it.? Al-Hijr 9. So, as far as the subject, this narration is false.
   3.There is another anecdote in Mowata no. 692. This anecdote is completely false under all measures. Malik narrated this anecdote from Ibn Shehab (Al-Zuhry) who narrated this by himself. Al-Zuhry lived towards the end of the Umayyad era and was one of the followers who never met the Prophet, peace be upon him, or lived his time. Even though we read the following in Mowata (Malik told us that Ibn Shehab told us that a man admitted committing adultery during the reign of the Prophet. The man testified against himself and was ordered to be stoned. Ibn Shehab said For this, one can incriminate himself by self-confession.
3. The narrations were iterated after Malik. Shafi?e, Bukhari and Moslem wrote them. Sometimes these narrations claim that certain verses in Qur?an did exist and omitted. Bukhari, died yr 256 A.H., narrated from Omar Ibn Khattab, who died 200 years before him, about verses that were omitted from Qur?an and Omar declared them late. Some of these narrations claim that the stoning rite was stemmed from the monkey?s society before Islam. Bukhari narrated in his anecdote no. 3560? Naeem Ibn Hmmad told us about Hasheem about Amr Ibn Meimoun saying I saw before Islam a bunch of monkeys stoning an adulterous monkey, and I did the same with them. It seems that the monkeys? society before Islam was ahead in applying the stoning. Anybody asked about this monkey?s marital status? Did the narrator discuss this issue with the Clergy of the monkeys and how to prove the occurrence of adultery? Did the monkeys use four witnesses? All of these narrations contradicting themselves.
4. Contradiction in narrations
   Contradiction is the main characteristic of Narrations. Two kinds of contradictory characters appear in narrations partial contradiction in the details of the same story, and major contradiction among different stories. As an example of the latter, Bukhari produced a narration about a man came to the Prophet and admitted committing adultery. The prophet avoided him. The prayer time came and the man witnessed the prayer with the Prophet. He reiterated his confession to the Prophet and demanded to be punished. The prophet said to him did you not pray with us? The man said yes. The Prophet said God forgave your sin. This means that prayer forgives the sins and negates the stoning. This is a stark contradiction with other narrations that are damped with the stoned victims? blood.
   While Bukhari, Shafi?e and Malik narrations emphasized that the punishment for the married adulterer is only stoning, we found that Moslem narrated repeated stories emphasizing in them that the Prophet said The punishment of the single is 100 lashes and one year exile. The married punishment is 100 lashes then stoning. The danger in these narrations that it made the punishment for the married adulterer was 100 lashes before being killed stoning. This is another contradiction with other narrations.
   These stories and anecdotes were written in the books of narrations to become major source of legislation for Moslems. Especially, when the scholars and the storytellers celebrated them and everyone re-iterated these narrations as ?real? and ?rites?. This was emphasized by the application of these narrations that sent many men and women victims to death based on legislation God never authorized.

About shahaadah. Shahaadah is the belife we have declaration "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.",I understand you dont have any problem in accepting the first line which says "There is no god but Allah, You have only problem in the second phase which says "and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah."

As mentioned earlier, Islam teaches that the Prophets were the best of humanity, specifically chosen by God due to their excellent qualities specifically to preach the message of God to humanity.

?The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ?We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers.?? (2285)

Its a declaration were we accept that There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.
Nobody can disagree with this statement because both has been mention in quran which is true.
I agree that we should not make any DISTINCTION between the messengers and we are not.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

Peace "albruni" and all hadith followers,
I think those who follow hadith besides Quran dont understand one basic issue. We at free-minds dont give a damn about chain of narration. CHAIN OF NARRATION, TRUST OF THE PEOPLE OR THEM BEING RIGHTEOUS IN HISTORY HAS NEVER BEEN THE CRITERIA FOR US TO ACCEPT THE QURAN IS THE TRUE WORD OF GOD. We accept the Quran as the true Od of GOD because the rationality it contains, the scientific foreknowledge it contains, it's statements being in agreement with the real world, the mathematical strcuture(which IMO and those of many other bros is the most important criteria also defining the boundaries of the Quran inside the written mushaf", the lack of contradictions and also to this day no statement of the Quran has been falsified by science. So this trust a righteous person and chain of narration is your deal, NOT OURS and it is of no use. I still remember when I was young i was bombarded with statements like the Prophet Muhammad was always the most honest, never lied, always returned all the property entrusted to him even to the Kufaar etc. I personally say now that i dont know whether the Prophet was always honest in his life or not. But lets say he was. Dont you know that some people are so smart they can tell the truth a number of times to make them look honest and then lie in certain regards to gain their own benefit? Ofcourse this can happen. Others might claim the Prophet was just delusion. The only way to be sure is to have the proofs i mentioned above. GOD Bless!

Salam Jonney,

Why you dont give damn about chain of narration ? Now you have started saying that "dont know whether the Prophet was always honest in his life or not" when quran says You (O Prophet) are indeed endowed with a great character (684)

Please jonney dont include your self ih this verse 2202 - Among people there are those, who without knowledge, dispute about Allah and follow every rebel satan.

May god guide us to the straight path.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni