Peace,

To say "arrama/prohibit l-ith'ma/the detriment" is meaningless.
Read in context about causing detriment and tyranny on others.

733 say merely arrama/prohibit lord mine the immorality what apparent therein and what unaware wal-ith'ma/and the detriment and the oppression/tyranny in other than/without the right/justification and that associate ye of with the god what not descended in it authority of and that thou say ye of about the god what not thou knowing

thank you brother Noon. you really solved this problem (and others completely). I really learned a lot from you. keep up your good work!

in everything we do, we have to do it with right justification. even eating pig is okay with right justification defines in Quran 2137 (forced by necessity, without disobedient, and not transgressor).

for other things, right justification can be defined using this logic.

i dont think they are English name. they are taken from Old Testament (OT).

Since the current book of Old Testament has contradictions injected by human led by the devil itself, we should not consider it as a holy book. we should not take any information from it to add up or complete any information we got from Quran under any circumstances, since Quran already state that it is complete. no extra information regarding road of salvation is required.

those names from OT are causing us heavy problems due to

1. that is the way they can smuggle the non existing character of Jesus to become Nabi Isa, so that many of us think Nabi Isa is Jesus and vice versa.
2. that is the way they smuggle the idea of false long timeline of prophets from Nabi Nuh to Nabi Muhammad by changing the name of Nabi Yakub to Israel, so that we will think that Bani Israil is the descendant of Nabi Yakub.

i dont know if there are more evil agenda other than these 2, but these are already bad enough.

please stop using extra-quranic information when we talk about Quran.

thanks for summarizing bro good logic, i think i understand what happened here

Peace All.
I need to summarise this thread for new readers and others who are wavering or still not sure. The thread needs a summary since it has gone on a bit in my opinion
Ju5 claimed 234 and 1649 contradict because of two things
1-Iblees is a Malaika but refused an order from GOD.234
2-Malaika are not arrogant, reverence GOD and obey GOD s orders.

and

Brother Noon gave him the following summary
1-Al Malaika in 1649 are a certain group, It does not say "Kullu" all of them.
2- He gave examples from Qoran to confirm this.
This is another example Qoran saysWa Ma MANAA Al- Naas AN Yuminu...Illa An Kalu Abaatha Allah Bacharan Rasoola" -What has stopped the peole from believing ...because theyb said why does GOD send a human like us as messenger.
In here even though it says "AL-NAAS" it does not mean all the people because surely few always believe.

Ju5 kept sticking to his view that all Malaika obey if Iblees disobeyed ,then there is a contradiction.
Ju5 has also said, as a summary, the following
1-He/She does not know if Malaika have got free will .
2-He/She does not care about other verses in Qoran or context.
3- He/she did not bring a single other verse that confirms clearly Iblees is a Malaika other than 234, yet there is other verses that confirm Iblees is from Jinn.

i agree with ju5 that iblees is malaika, Q 234 is enough to indicate that.

the problem lies in the phrase "wahum la yastakbirna" (and they are not arrogant) in the end of Q 1649. here bro ju5 assume that the word "wahum" (they) is referring to all malaika, thus make this verse contradict with Q 234.

bro Noon already explain that the word "min" means "some of", so the word "wahum" in Q 1649 can not be referred to all malaika, but only to some malaika. but i don't see where bro Noon explain which malaika that are referred in Q1649, if it is not all malaika ( ju5 asked about this question also)

from my understanding "wahum" in Q 1649 refers to sujud-ing malaika and all dabba, not all malaika and all dabba. it fits to bro Noon explanation about the word "min" and fit with the rest of the verse which basically says all dabba and some of malaika in heaven and earth sujud to Allah and they are not arrogant

please let me clarify my understanding.

1. iblees is malaika and a jinn. malaika is a role (role of controller) and jinn is a trait or characteristic (being hidden). so basically iblees is a hidden malaika (just like other malaika). it is similar to a statement ju5 is a teacher and he is smart. ju5 is a smart teacher
2. malaika has free will. iblees is a plain example. other case where freewill is exercise is by bad malaika is the case of harut and marut in Q 2102-103. why else they teach human about something that has no benefit ? other then supporting Iblees plan/promise to mankind? another example is when malaika questions ALLAH's decision prior to creating Adam, which we all are familiar with.

i thank bro ju5 for presenting this case, so that i can learn and expand my understanding about Quran.

if God allowed, i will look up bro ju5 original finding in

I have looked at the skeptic annotated qur'an and found most contradictions debatable/about bad translations/interpretations/blatantly false, but this, i can't refute. Anyone with explanations ?
Don't answer if don't know please, i don't want mental gymnasts and people who follow rumors and speak of what they do not know to pollute the topic. Just plain logic and knowledge in pursuit of truth, and no hate.

Heaven then earth
7927 Are you a more powerful creation than the heaven which He built?
7928 He raised its height, and perfected it.
7929 And He covered its night and brought out its morning.
7930 And the land after that He spread out.
7931 He brought forth from it its water and pasture.
7932 And the mountains He fixed firmly.

Earth then heaven
419 Say "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."
4110 And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.
4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."
4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

Second,
people here say that Injil is indeed an arabic word and not greek words(good news), and that the Injil is not the gospel, and that Isa is not Jesus, but i found a post that make this position very hard to defend, which i am quoting here (by "youssef4342&quot
It would be quite farfetched to say that Isa is not Jesus and that the gospel is not the injil (what would be that injil that is mentioned several times? Why would the gospels would not be mentioned as they are the scriptures of christians ? Wikipedia

The Arabic word Injil (&#1604 as found in Islamic texts, and now used also by Muslim non-Arabs and Arab non-Muslims, is derived from the Syriac Aramaic word awongaleeyoon (&#1826 found in the Peshitta (Syriac translation of the Bible), which in turn derives from the Greek word euangelion (&#957 of the originally Greek language New Testament, where it means "good news" (from Greek " "; Old English "gdspel"

Please note also that Mary in the gospel is not called Miriam, but Mariam (the aramaic form of Miriam). She is also called Mariam in the Qur'an.

Now, if Jesus is Isa -it is quite striking than his mother Mariam has a father called Imran and a brother called Harun (Aaron), while the Miriam of the Torah is also sister to Aaron and daughter to Amram. This may be a confusion between Miriam from the Torah and Mariam from the gospels.

If anyone has the answer please share

and other findings in here

because the article was long, and because i was talking about plural of hands in the thieves and the lies/inventions around this, not about the baseless speculation(you can always speculate and invent things indefinitely), and anyway i answered to those because of you

the real question you should be wondering is why are you all dishonest when the subject is the qur'an? answer because you want to believe

i don't know if its the best website, but it sure does his job referencing the occurences of words in the qur'an

now, as i wage war against the qur'an are you going to cut my feet/hands opposed or crucify me like a good muslim? or will you disobey allah and twist his command?

since noone has correct answsers for my accusations, i will add even more

1 3953 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins
448 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills
One could say he forgives shirk once you repent. But isn't that true of all sins? then why bother saying that allah does not forgive shirk/association?

2 5822 You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred.
3115(about parents) But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in world with appropriate kindness

3 4116 Aad is destroyed in days of misfortune
5419 Aad is destroyed in a day of misfortune
697 Aad is destroyed in seven nights and eight days of misfortune

4 7120 Firaun wizards believe in musa
1080 None believed Musa save the offspring among his people

5 The qur'an is not clear, proof=the existence of all these discussion on this forum.

6 God gave the Gospel To Jesus which doesn't make sense. You can argue all day long about it, it is the most probable meaning injil=good news, the kitab word=book. Christians can find the name of Muhammad in it(qur'an says so). You say it doesn't make sense on the false premise that the qur'an is perfect and true.

7 Israel means "who wrestled with god" as jacob fought him, see the bible story. He called the place "the face of god" because he saw him. And God renamed him Israel. "Who wrestled with god". Unqur'anic to say the least, but still mentioned as Israel.

8 1649 And to God prostrate all those in the heavens and all those on the earth, from the creatures and the angels, and they are not arrogant.
1650 They fear their Lord from above them, and they do what they are commanded.

234 And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
Note if you say iblis is a jinn not an angel, learn grammar. Allah gives an orders to angels and all obey save Iblis. Nothing more, nothing less.

God may very well exist regardless of religions or not.
Maybe there was a perfect qur'an. Maybe there wasn't. One thing is sure, our qur'an is not.

Last hint of this post, if you think the qur'an can not contradict itself. then it will never contradict itself. Because of you. It is all in your mind.

Peace all,

Story of Adam and eve is known to you all and their cast from the garden Aden.Now some say it is Indian because Islamic tradition say that Adam set is foot first on that island and went to arabia to search for Hawwa.

But i came across with the old greek myth of the "Garden of the Heperides" and they locate this Garden far in the West.

what do you think

PsHope you all already know by the scripture that adam and eve where not the only humans when they have to left aden to a populated area.

peace

Salamun alaykum bro,

What is the point or purpose by knowing the exact location Adam and his wife set foot for the first time on earth? I have not find in Quran that they are ever separated, nor that Adam?s wife?s name is Hawa or Eve.

What do you have in mind about this?

I am not saying that knowing the location is useless, because knowing that the location of Nabi Muhammad can not be mecca (because mecca does not have group of sidr trees as describe in 5313-14) is enough to wipe all hearsays about sirah nabawiyah, asbabun nuzul, list of shahabah and tabi?in and eventually all hadits and sunnah.

if the location is not right, i think there is a big possibility that the time is not right too. Just like what they do to nabi Isa and try to convince us that jesus is Nabi Isa by moving his timeline

we know that Nabi Isa is the nephew of Nabi Musa and Nabi Harun as indicated in 1928 and 3614 and jesus never existed and his life story is just a mix between the early life story of Nabi Isa, mid life story of Nabi Yusuf. They even try to convince us that Nabi Isa is replaced by his bad disciple in crucifiction and going up to heaven (not died yet) and will return to earth to set things right near the event of qiyamat, while Quran clearly says that Nabi Isa died after living with his ummah for a while as described in Q 5117

Please let me know your objective, so that i might aid you in this exploration.

Of course homosexuality is a gross sin. How can it be normal? Judging from the year this thread started, i can see that it was related to big campaign of LGBT movement.

415-16, 26165-166, 2755, 2928-29, 780-81,1178-79, 1570-73, 5136 and 7029-30 give me enough information about Quran?s stance on homosexuality. But for people who keep trying to justify homosexuality (regardless of their motives), just read 7031

I wonder why we as muslims still use proper names such as moses, gabriel, pharaoh and so on.

Isn?t it clear from Quran that their names are Musa, Jibril and Firawn?

Please stop using names taken from other than Quran itself, especially from the books that had been twisted and edited by men.

May ALLAH forgive us.

Not to throw salt or always seem to be attacking Amenuel, but look at his argument. There is not a single statement developed from true Quranic knowledge
An animal is an animal is an animal ok we know that. But that does not mean an animal does not have self-awareness, individuality and volition.

Where in the Quran does it say that a human is an animal unless spiritually developed? It is true that those who do not hear or listen are akin to cattle, and if do not repent and reform potentially face Hell, but this does not imply that animals (like cattle) are spiritually undeveloped
That is not how al-mawt is used in Quran

Miim-Waw-Ta = To die, to pass away from the earthly life, to be destitute or deprived of life, deprived of sensation, deprived of the intellectual faculty, to be still/quiet/motionless, to be calm/still, to sleep, lifeless, to be assuaged, dried up by the earth, to cease, wear out/be worn out, to be poor/reduced to poverty, abject/base/despicable/vile, disobedient or rebellious, lowly/humble/submissive, to be soft/loose/flabby/relaxed, lack spirit or life.

Furthermore there is no example to the best of my knowledge which uses this word in reference to animal's lack of "soul", "life", or individuality.
This does not provide any insight into your claim about animals being lifeless. It is a reiteration of a cat is a cat is a cat.
(Fan of Gertrude Stein?)
More guessing, speculation and conjecture.
How do you determine this? Where in the Quran or Torah do you see such indication?
What do hormonal physiological states have to do with individuality or accountability? This is not something that can be addressed or explained by chemical processes or solely in a biologic aspect.

It is more of a philosophical question and we ( those who follow Quran) derive our philosophical responses from the Quran
Where is your proof for the notion that these behaviors are not controlled by the "self"? Do you have any ayaats from the Quran or research studies to provide as evidence?

Again, where do you get this information? That statement is neither scientific nor logical.
Where is your scientific research supported evidence for that?
Where is your evidence for this notion in Quran?
I generally agree with this, but just because someone is more governed by his desires does not translate that animals who appear to be acting based on instinct and primal desires are not individuals

WATCH THIS PLEASE

https//youtu.be/jlR3UVU_nHQ

It is more than mere behavioral differences...

What instinct does a dog have that drive it to risk its own life to save an estranged dog in need, when most dogs bark at each other or ignore each other?

V. O. L. I. T. I. O. N.

Subhanallah, thank you for sharing the video brother. I filled my eyes with tears watching that video. I dont think that the dog owner, if there is any, have ever taught that dog to help another dog lying helplessly in the street. Who have ever taught their dog that way? It must come from the dog itself or directly from God.

Thank you again for sharing that eye opening video.

in your opinion isra and miraj are fake ,,, fair enough the starting of this chapter is telling the believers how (praised one) recieved revelation.. the isra and miraj event started from the middle of this chapter here some points for you to ponder.. and plz before giving opinions verify your opinion in the light of quran,, here is your answer of your opinion, check these verses,,

5313 And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
5314 At the ultimate point. ( ultimate point ,, where about)
5315 Near it is the eternal Paradise.( eternal paradise cant be in earth)
5316 The whole place was overwhelmed. (which place exactly)
5317 The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.(where exactly eyes get trick)
5318 He has seen from the great signs of his Lord. ( which signs , two discussed here as sidra tu muntaha(lot tree) and eternal paradise)..

chapter started from the way how prophet recieved revelation and ,, chapter link in another ocassion where prophet ascends to heavens ,,honestly tell me one thing my brother do you really know how to study quran ,, or you have some doubt about the verses like flat earth...

Salam imran,

I think this discussion about isra miraj deserve its own thread, if it is not discussed already. What do you think?

lol i didnt say anything to you regarding time travelling ,, i was telling to all of you about the roof thingie ,, people are discusssing the roof of God ,, so i was telling them the way God works is out of human calculations.

we have limit ,while God is limitless in anything , for makin you understand he sometimes compare things even when he compare we have no exact calculation ,, for example,,,

if all the oceans become ink and all trees become pens , the praises of your lord will never finsih.. even if you double the supply of ink..

now Allah is talking on a level of human understanding ,, first of all we dnt even know how much water is inn the ocean,, some how we find out the quantity of water ,, we still dnt know what is the limit of God to write praises ,, as he already told my praises will not finish even after you doouble the supply of ink,,, subhanallah

even here we are unable to calculate.. that what i was tryinng to tell you guys.. time travelling just comes there as a example of Allahz power

Yes, i fully agree with you about this. Thank you

You don't have to refuse to accept anything. There is no ill in Quran.
I do not have a solution because there is no problem.

You only have a problem if you assume that We could refer to anyone but Allah.
Just as we should not speculate too much about the soul or follow that which we do not have any knowledge of, we should not speculate or assume there are grammatical errors or that We refers to Allah and the Angels in unison.

We want to say, yes probably it is Allah and the Angels because they obey all of Allah's commands, but that is only an assumption. Allah states that He is the Doer
Perhaps we just cannot grasp yet how the affairs are regulated by Him, but we cannot speculate/assume that We refers to anyone other than Allah alone.

8513 Indeed He, He originates and repeats,
8514 And He (is) the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Loving,
8515 Owner (of) the Throne the Glorious,
8516 Doer of what He intends.

thank you that is very thoughtful of you )

i can see there is no real problem now, just a curiosity "Why does God say We in some places the Quran ?" just like the name of the this thread )

i still wonder if there is a more logical explanation about this curiosity. at this moment, my answer to that curiosity is still the same.

May ALLAH increase our understanding and iman

Hmm.... so because there is a behavioral difference between animals you say they have souls (i.e. are persons = selves) and a unique consciousness. I wonder how you find that the most logical explanation.

Animal is an animal, and also Homo Sapiens is a lifeless (no soul/self) animal unless spiritually developed and undeveloped they are just a more advanced animal primate yet following primitive behavioral patterns just like animals dominated by the instinctive drive. I am not calling that anything to attribute life to but a lifeless automation. Quran calls it "no character" (al-mowt) referring to that it is not an individual. A cat is always a cat even if you give it a name and make a difference between that one and other cats.

It can have personality traits, i.e. different behavior usually affected by the animal's life experiences, but it is not enough to give it a unique self. Its prime drive will be determined by its instinct alone and flow of hormones in the body. A difference in the hormones will affect behavior. Even in humans it is different.

Certain hormones will cause exaggerated confidence, another will cause violent tendencies, another higher socialization drive and this is just not controlled by any spiritual being, no self. An animal cannot change voluntarily their behavior compared to a strong-willed human.

Instinctive impulses can be hard to resist, but it is possible and one can change themselves so they are not like a mindless animal. Those often make it difficult to reason logically without the influence of emotions and superstition. Break the sterotypical patterns and find out how very predictable you are underneath your belief that you are a unique person. Then you might understand the phenomenon of lifelessness and how you are a slave to your own body and its desires. Desires that are vain and you could live without and which are only to release various hormones so you get a physical stimulus but do not logically lead to anything efficiently productive. And productive is not hoarding meaningless wealth

Be well
Amenuel

have you read my post above?

quran implies that that particular ant can differentiate itself from the other ants. doesn't it require uniqueness at least among the ants?
quran implies that Sulaiman wants to discipline or even kill a hoopoe for its nondisciplinary action if it didnot give clear reason, do you think Sulaiman will kill all the hoopoe int the world? or just that particular Hoopoe? again, doesn't it require uniqueness? at least among the Hoopoes?

can you see that animals on that verses are not just acting with primitive instinc? they can reason, they can understand human social condition, they understand about God, Iblis and idolatry, they can have responsibility and also they can lie.

our current understanding about animal and technology about animal communication is very limited due to our ignorance to these verses. not because they are simple and fully dependent on their instinct.

May ALLAH increase our understanding and iman

I asked in a different topic if animals have "individuality"/"soul" and the topic started to lose it's original hypothesis (does God dwell inside of us).
I made this topic so that the other one wouldn't get off-track.

dear brother,

actually i dont know precisely what is the meaning of soul, but if you mean soul is individuality, then my answer is a Big Yes. animal has individuality because they are different to each other and it can differentiate itself to one another. furthermore, they are not as simple as that. my argument is based on these verses

Q 2718
Until they came to a valley of ants, a female ant said O ants, enter your homes else you will be crushed by Sulaiman and his
soldiers while they do not notice.

this verse talks about an ant communication to other ants. this verse implies that an ant is aware that there is a danger situation towards the other ants. this verse also implies that this particular ant aware about the social condition of human i.e these particular human that are marching toward them are soldiers, not merchants, sculptures or antyhing, and those soldiers are led by someone named Sulaiman.

Q 2720 -28
2720 And he inspected the birds, then said Why do I not see the hoopoe, or is he among those absent?
2721 I will punish him severely, or I will kill him, else he should have a clear excuse.
2722 But the hoopoe did not stay away long, then he said I have seen what you do not know, and I have come to you from Sheba with news which is certain.
2723 I found them ruled by a woman, and she was given all possessions,and she had a great throne.
2724 And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.
2725 Will they not prostrate to God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?
2726 God, there is no god except He, the Lord of the supreme Throne.
2727 He said We will see if you are being truthful or are one of those who lie.
2728 Take this letter of mine and cast it to them, then withdraw from them and observe what they respond with.

these verses are really beyond my wildest imagination (and Alhamdulillah God increase my understanding about animal from these verses). these verses imply that

1. Sulaiman demands discipline from a bird and expect clear reasoning/excuses from a bird for its undisciplined action
2. the Hoopoe knows that Sulaiman does not know anything about a human kingdom named Sheba before it reports it to Sulaiman
3. the Hoopoe knows that there is a certainty degree in a news and he had make sure that the news it bring is certain
4. the Hoopoe knows a human kingdom named Sheba, led by a human woman, she has lots of possession and a great throne
5. the Hoopoe knows that human is prostrating to Sun and it knows that they should prostrate to ALLAH (idolatry concept)
6. the Hoopoe understand the role of the Devil to make people believe that their bad work looks goods
7. the Hoopoe understands God's power in heaven and earth and God's knowledge on human hearts.
8. the Hoopoe understand that there is only one God and God has a supreme throne
9. Sulaiman knows that there is a possibility that Hoopoe is lying instead of telling the truth
10. Sulaiman knows that he can entrust a Hoopoe with a letter drooping and eavesdropping task

take a look at the list brother. all those points will surely look crazy in the eyes of non-quran believer. But what really amazed me is point 1, 3, 5 and 9. i wonder why those Quran attackers do not attack these verses ? or have they

what do you think brother ?

Salam Alihawa,

This is particularly in response to the below quote. Truthfully some of the other points you have made hold water but there is no stance against the forgiving argument.

We really have to understand what the Quran is conveying by intercession.

407 Those who bear the Throne and who (are) around it glorify (the) praises (of) their Lord and believe in Him and ask forgiveness for those who believe, "Our Lord! You encompass all things (by Your) Mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repent and follow Your Way and save them (the) punishment (of) the Hellfire.
408 Our Lord! And admit them (to) Gardens (of) Eden which You have promised them and whoever (was) righteous among their fathers and their spouses and their offspring. Indeed You, You (are) the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

The Angels pray to Allah to forgive those who believe. This praying on others account is also known as intercession.

in?ter?ces?sion
in(t)rseSHn/
noun
the action of intervening on behalf of another.
"through the intercession of friends, I was able to obtain her a sinecure"
synonyms mediation, intermediation, arbitration, conciliation, negotiation; More
the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.
"prayers of intercession"

Shiin-Fa-Ayn = to make even that which was odd, make double, pair, make a thing to be one of the pair, adjoin a thing to its like, provide a thing which was alone with another, protect, mediate, intercede, be an intercessor. shaf'un - pair, double. shafa'at - likeness/similarity, intercede or pray for a person.

But the Angels are not as the prayer clearly demonstrate in any position to do any forgiving contrary to what you would presume 252 and 258 are saying.

If you want to make the claim that the intercession is as in protection then that is no longer in support of your argument, because protection is not forgiving. It is true though, that whoever Allah chooses to forgive then the Angels will intercede to protect them from the punishment of the HellFire but that is not actively forgiving.

We understand that this authority of intercession is also given to the prophets as the prophet is encouraged to pray for those who come to him with charities and seek forgiveness from Allah. Although this does not mean that the intercessions of these authorities Prophets and Angels is automatically accepted, it is contingent on the person on who's behalf their interceding's repentance and sincerity. In fact, here are two examples of intercession being addressed in Quran

980 Ask forgiveness for them or (do) not ask forgiveness for them. If you ask forgiveness for them seventy times, never will Allah forgive them. That (is) because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah (does) not guide the people, the defiantly disobedient.
In what possible context can the Angels assist Allah in the forgiving of sins?
He Who Created and Judges is The One Forgives not His creations.

2462 Only the believers (are) those who believe in Allah and His Messenger, and when they are with him for a matter (of) collective action, not they go until they (have) asked his permission. Indeed, those who ask your permission, those believe in Allah and His Messenger. So when they ask your permission for some affair of theirs, then give permission to whom you will among them, and ask forgiveness for them (of) Allah. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

I think this serves to prove that We is not referring to anyone but Allah.
Perhaps we cannot grasp the use of this particular grammar, but it does not mean we should assume anything different than what the Message itself conveys.

There is only One God, He is Supreme, He is the All-Mighty and All-Wise and Has Power and Dominion over all things and He shares no partner in His Dominion and He needs no one to protect Him.

In fact the righteous in their salat pray
17111 And say, "All Praise (is) for Allah the One Who has not taken a son and not is for Him a partner in the dominion, and not is for Him any protector out of weakness. And magnify Him (with all) magnificence."

Again Allah needs no assistance to forgive His creations, He alone is worthy to forgive you.

7456 And not will pay heed except that wills Allah. He (is) worthy to be feared, and worthy to forgive.

Another point is that the Angels themselves will receive judgement. So how can they be partners in forgiving of your sins if they themselves are subject to the Judgement?

Lets take a look at one of the descriptions of Judgement Day.

Disbelievers destination

3971 And (will) be driven those who disbelieve to Hell (in) groups until when they reach it, (will) be opened its gates and (will) say to them its keepers, "Did not come to you Messengers from you reciting to you (the) Verses (of) your Lord and warning you (of the) meeting (of) your Day this?" They (will) say, "Yes!" But has been justified (the) word (of) punishment against the disbelievers.
3972 It will be said, "Enter (the) gates (of) Hell (to) abide eternally therein, and wretched is (the) abode (of) the arrogant."

Fearful/Conscious/Righteous Destination

3973 And (will) be driven those who feared their Lord, to Paradise (in) groups until when they reach it and (will) be opened its gates and (will) say to them its keepers, "Peace be upon you, you have done well, so enter it (to) abide eternally."
3974 And they will say, "All praise (be) to Allah, Who has fulfilled for us His promise and has made us inherit the earth, we may settle (in) Paradise wherever we wish. So excellent (is the) reward (of) the workers."

Angels Judgement

And you will see the Angels surrounding around the Throne glorifying (the) praise (of) their Lord. And (will) be judged between them in truth, and it will be said, "All praise be to Allah, (the) Lord (of) the worlds."

Who knows how thin the line is between recognizing the Angels as a Sign and their abilities and involvement in serving Allah in the regulation of the affairs and making association, but I do not want to find out. This is what I am particularly troubled with, because in the Hereafter this will occur

3440 And (the) Day He will gather them all, then He will say to the Angels, "Were these you they were worshipping?"
3441 They will say, "Glory be to You (are) our Protector, not them. Nay, they used (to) worship the jinn, most of them in them (were) believers."
3442 But today not possess power some of you on others to benefit and not to harm, and We will say to those who wronged, "Taste (the) punishment (of) the Fire which you used to deny."

If you think about it when the polytheists are associating Isa with Allah, they are not worshipping/serving Isa, they are worshipping/serving the shaytan/ or their own desires or the entities responsible for deceiving them. The prophets and Isa will deny the worshipping/serving of them by the polytheists.

So it is possible that in the same way we can be deceived by these shaytan/ desires or entities(jinn) to associate with Allah. Like the example above the Angels will deny the worshipping/serving of them by the polytheists.

At the very least what my argument is conveying is that it is a stretch to assume We refers to Allah and the Angels in these particular cases which deal with Allah's Supremacy and Dominion and Authority.

At the most it is saying that assuming that We is referring to Allah and anyone else might be a grave association worthy of Hell.

Looking forward to your calculated thought-out response

Peace brother

salam HP tech,

thank you for your input. as stated on my previous post in this thread, all my answers before are just my best speculations because i refuse to accept that there are many grammatical or logical error in Quran.

i agree with you about the forgiving judgment must come from ALLAH himself. and i think that the only possible involvement of angel or jibril are in communication process and/or in proposing process (the authority that i mention on the previous post is the authority to propose, not to judge. why proposing needs authority? because nobody can even talk on that day except with His permission and those permission are already approved by ALLAH, because ALLAH keeps his promises).

yes, it might sound pathetic, but it is my best speculation at this moment

if you think those two chance are not possible too, then i have to look for the other options ......

so do you have any other solution to this problem brother? please share me your thought

time travelling is not possible for us but its Allah who can break the law of physics anytime,

reversal of time in the case of birds flight of abraham,
reversal of time in the case of a person who sleep for one hundred years and bones of donkey he see..

but generally laws of physics are going towards fututre same like expanding universe..glass cant be unbroken, we are getting old , time is moving forward, but for him he can change the laws anytimme anywhere he wishes,,

hi brother,

are you seriously thinking that i propose time travelling research or anything?
i am just giving an "if" situation bro

Hi,

Because it totally makes no sense to me.
Not only a little bit but like everything.

A roof? From what is it made? Till this day no one ever saw a roof or a guard with his/her telescope.

RED If the quran speaks the truth and your translation is the truth then show me. Have you ever heard of someone who claimed he saw this roof?
What do you mean with guards and protection?
What roof breachers are you talking about? I seriously have never heard of someone who is on a mission to reach the roof.
How big do you think a star is? I mean if a star is a missile then how big is it's target? To stop me from reaching the roof you seriously do not need a star as a missile?
I do not mock or at least that is not my intention, but sometimes some things are so unrealistic to me that maybe I express myself not in a correct way.
When you read such translations do you not have a feeling that at least it sounds weird?

You should know that the people who translated the quran are just people like you and me.
When they where translating they had not a dictionary included with the quran, they are just guessing like you and me.

When i was a child (around 35 years ago) i read about the meeting of 2 seas in quran. The explanation of that verse at that time is ok with science and common understanding at that time, which is something like the meeting of mediteranian sea and red sea in suez or anything like that.

But now with the advancement of our understanding, we can see that quran is actually talking about the meeting of salty and fresh water in the ocean literally, which was unthinkable 35 years ago.

Can you imagine what will happen to somebody from our time if he go back 35 years ago (or more) and told the people that quran literally talk about the meeting of salty and fresh water in the ocean and they dont get mixed up at all? almost everyone will mock him, unless the ones with the open mind.

If only all our (we as humankind) research is pointed out to dig what the quran literally say, maybe the fact about salty and fresh water have been found much much earlier.

Do you think that the sky as the roof, gates in heaven, and missile for the jinn that quran talk about has similar case with this? Such as animal communication to sulaiman and among themselves. In my perception, it is a big yes.

i will watch them brother. thanks for sharing it

Thank you for this discussion brother.

I hope we can get many useful things from it

salam arman,

With regards to adding additional circumstances or addendum to Quran... no I do not believe I am doing that. I have derived my understanding of iman and kufr based on how these terms have been used in Qur'an. Once the notions of iman and kufr are separated from the notions of believing and disbelieving and properly aligned with acceptance / rejection of our responsibility / relationship with God - The understanding that I am proposing becomes the natural and logical understanding - the jealous God theory rather looks out of place with the message of God's Mercy and Justice in Qur'an.

so you admitted that those additional condition is basically derived form your understanding and logical thinking based on your observation how word iman and kufr are used is Quran, right?

do you think you have enough intellectual capacity to do that brother?
do you think your natural and logical understanding can find the loopholes and finally perfected Quranin in one of its clear and concise verse (muhkamat)?
do you think God forgot to include those things?
do you think God has authorized you to do that?

this is the translation of Q 262
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

this is your "side note" or comment or whatever about what Q 262
"to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity ? faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life.

Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not need to profess the belief in afterlife ? rather faith in the last may be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.."

you said that you did not believe you were doing that, but you just did.

please brother, for your own sake, please repent, i beg you.

even our prophet did not dare to do what you have done because of these verses
Q 69 44 - 47
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

Moreover, the believing (Jwa-nun-nun) is a totally separate topic which also has been discussed specifically in Qur'an. For example in 245-46 we are informed that seeking help through patience and salaat (reverence) is severe/difficult except for those who believe in meeting their Master. Note the use of the word severe here not "impossible". Also, in 278 Qur'an is talking about the uninformed people within the fraternity of books who do not have but their beliefs. "Believing" per Qur'an is like a two way sword - if placed correctly can be helpful to attain taqwa, otherwise can be misleading and even sinful. My understanding is derived based on these verses of Qur'an only - not from out of blue. Furthermore, I find support to my understanding in 2249 which I also discussed in the opening post.

sorry you lost me there. i dont know what you are talking about in this paragraph.

Also, let's try to look at the below verse and discuss how to interpret this

Now imagine a moralist atheist who comes to us in peace - does not bring in hostility / enmity because of our difference in belief - and to the best of our knowledge acts righteously and deals fairly with everyone. Are we then with the above verse in mind authorized to tell them ?You are not a faithful?? Look also how this verse is treating this act of imposing "unfaithful" label as an act of seeking worldly gain. Think about it - when we earmark an otherwise peaceful neighbor as unfaithful based on what he believes - do we really try to please God who is our Master and their Master? Or is it our superiority seeking ego that we serve?

May Allah guide us to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

i think i have made myself clear about our attitude towards them. if they want to know the truth, then we'll share it with them, if they wont, then just disregard them.

it does not mean that we have to be cruel. full of hatred and injustice to them, just apply what the Quran has to say about our attitude towards them. do you have any difficulties finding those verses? once you find them, they are all clear and nothing unusual that needs to be discussed i think.

do you still need to discuss about how you should behave towards those atheist after all this long and wide discussion?

salaam arman

It is good to see that our understandings are gradually merging towards a point of agreement. In sha Allah, with some effort we can understand each other better.

With regards to 548 I believe this applies to the communities within the fraternity of book (ahl-al kitab) only. The you and they refered to in this verse are all different communities within the fraternity of book. I do not see this to imply that every community on earth has been sent down a law and a structure. (BTW my preferred translation for Sharia and Minjhaj is Menifesto and Open path.)

yes brother, i also hope that with discussion we can get greater understanding if Allah's will.

but for the first point about path of God only come to certain people, sorry brother i have to disagree. the straight path of God had come to everyone, my argument is based on these verses

Q1663-64
1663 By God, We had sent to nations before you, but the devil adorned their work for them. So he is their ally today, and they will have a painful retribution.
1664 And We have not sent down the Book to you except that you may clarify for them that in which they have disputed, and as a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

Q 1636
And We have sent a messenger to every nation You shall serve God and avoid evil. Some of them were guided by God, and some of them deserved to be misguided. So travel the earth, and see how the punishment was of those who denied.

Q 137
And those who reject say If only a sign was sent down to him from his Lord. You are but a warner, and to every people is a guide.

how can you come into conclusion that there are still nation or people that has no messenger, thus has no access to the path of God in the form of law and structure? it might not be exatly the same as the teaching of Quran, but least they have to fit to those 3 citeria (and yes those criteria comes from 262). the differences between those paths of God is beatifully described in

Q 2138
Such is the coloring of God, and who is better than God in coloring? And to Him we are in service.

I am not sure if you thoroughly read my opening post. In that post I have already clarified my understanding of these 3 conditions. Per my humble understanding, to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life. Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not need to profess the belief in afterlife rather faith in the last may be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.. (Note, how Quran very selectively uses the terms last day ~ yawm al akhir ~ and afterlife ~ akhirat ~ in different contexts.) And because of this understanding I am unable to claim that moralist atheists cannot meet these 2 criteria.

i think i read them well brother. to make things clear, for the red one, is there any verse that justified this additional circumstances? or is it just based on your thinking and what you think must be covered in Quran? i totally don't remember about any verse implies anything close to that understanding. please be careful in here brother. this is exactly what i mean by surrendering what is right or wrong to God. if you can't come up with any verses, then you have made additional circumstances or addendum to Quran.

please dont insert any humanitarian teaching (or even anything) into Quran. it is already perfect

Yes, I do believe most of mankind do not really know what they say or believe.
When majority of atheist reject the notion of God they tend to reject the notion of a big-daddy deity sitting above the seventh sky directing the affairs of the world per his whims. Because, unfortunately that is the mainstream notion of the concept God. I too reject this notion such a concept is not but akin to placing ones faith upon a tagoot. Very few people actually conceptualize God as the Authority over all beings, without imagining him as another being. Very few people actually conceptualize God as the source and foundation of life without assuming Him to be another living entity.

yes i agree with you. that holy-big-wise daddy image might not help you and me in increasing our iman. but to some people it might work. as long as it works, i see no objection as long as it leads to Tauhid/monotheism. everyone has their own style or approach to spiritualism and it is ok

When it comes to atheists I have seen two clear sub-groups among them. One group does acknowledge that our life on earth has a PURPOSE. They accept the responsibility of behaving righteously and acknowledge accountability. On the other hand there is another group who take the notion of no-God to imply no-responsibility, for them accountability is limited to what is scripted in man-made laws. I have absolutely no objection to acknowledge the second group as kafir. But I do not see how I can claim the first group as such.

i understand your thinking here. there are 2 groups of them, one looks okay and it seems they just dont know the truth yet, while the other is the bad one)

i also agree with you that we should differentiate our attitude towards them. you can see my opinion about this group in here

Yes i agree, there are many cases where people chose to be an atheist because he observes many imperfection/flaws in the behavior of the religious people or religious leaders.

They are disgusted by the behaviour of the munafiqin, espescially the ones that sit on the high places. When they are observing another religion, another sample of munafiq pops up and this particular people are disgusted again. Everywhere they look they only see the munafiqin, until one day he said "that's enough!, no more religion for me!, they all lies!!!"

If this is the case, they are actually an honest and truth seeking people who had bad experience. This is where the reminder from us is really needed. We will remind them that there is still a true path of God open for him and invite him to observe it himself. That is our sacred duty towards these disappointed people. We should be aware that they have been through the bad days and may not believe this one easily because all the previous religions also say they are the right one.

If my understanding serves me properly, then this duty is called Hajj with some clear guidance on how to do it in Quran.

May ALLAH give us strength to do that again and again

We clearly have different understanding of what the verses of Quran say. My point is not about what Quran says, rather what you are saying. You are claiming that all of those, without exception, who fail to pledge their belief in the theological notion of "God" is necessarily placing their desire as their God - even if they act righteously. You are saying that the actions of those who profess goodness for the sake of goodness have no value. Irrespective of how they act they are doomed to hell If these are not propagation of hatred, I really dont know what hatred means.

Sorry brother 488 91 comes in the context of hypocrites who verbally professes faith and alliance to the messenger, but behind the curtain they conspire against the faithful. I do not see how this relates to Moralist Atheists. Rather the Moralist Atheists that we are discussing are exactly the opposite, they do not pledge their belief, but they behave and act like faithful they are honest about their words and they profess fair-dealing and forbid immorality.

You did claim that even a moralist atheist who seems to be righteous in his actions is a kafir and is needed to be treated as such. Why dont you explain for us how you propose to treat them?

Oh ya right, you are not suggesting to hate the moralist atheist you are just stating as a matter of fact your view that they are worse than a rapist who rapes a child.

Hatred has nothing to do with guessing that someone will go to hell because he disregard God. Quran already give clear information about that. If he is truly a good and honest people, i believe God will save him and give him guidance so that he can accept God and enter Heaven in the afterlife. but if God misguides him, then he really deserve it because God can not make wrong decision. God knows what is in their heart. while we are not.

Q 6 39
And those who deny Our revelations, they are deaf and dumb, in darkness. Whoever God wishes He misguides, and whoever He
wishes He puts him on a straight path.

for those moralist atheist, if they repent, then they are our new brother. if they need time to grasp this monotheism concept, that's good. but if they wont, then just disregard them (no hatred, because someday they may change) until they make war on us. i think i have made myself clear about our attitude towards them.

about worse or equal to the rapist, yes. my opinion still stands. they dont know that what they are doing is a major sin, shirk. i think it is larger than rape because

Q 4116
God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed strayed a far straying.

i found these verse that also gives us guidance about how we should behave towards those kafir.

Q 5822
You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day leaning towards those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their kin. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with a Spirit from Him, and He admits them into estates with rivers flowing beneath them; abiding therein. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners.

Q 5814
Have you noted those who befriended people with whom God is angry? They are now neither from you nor from them. And they
deliberately swear to lies while they know!

Q 7164
And a nation from among them said Why do you preach to a people whom God will destroy or punish a painful retribution?
They said A plea to your Lord, and perhaps they may be aware.

Q 1660
To those who do not believe in the Hereafter is the worst example, and to God is the highest example, and He is the Noble, the Wise.

i know that you feel sorry for those moralist atheists, but believe me, i think i have a stronger feeling towards my father that still mushrik until today. i believe that God judgment's is right and we are in no position to question it. furthermore, i love my God more than my father that already worked very hard to grow me up.

i know exactly that if my father die while he still mushrik, then he will go to hell. and of course i am in no position to hate him whatsoever. so please remove hatred from this equation.

may ALLAH gives us greater understanding and iman

Alhamdulillah, i learn alot from this thread about animal.

Previously, i only know they can communicate or exchange complex ideas to sulaiman and to each other like what is said in Quran, but now i know they are more than that.

Just my curious thinking, is it true that the big difference between us and animal is the free-will?
What i mean by the free-will is the option to obey or to disobey the creator.

Why this question is pretty important? Because i think only the ones who disobey the creator that will go to hell, so if animal has no free-will, then i think there is no chance they will go to hell at all. They can have an individual or so called collective soul, but as long as there is no chance for them to do anything wrong, they will be ok in the afterlife.

Please share your thoughts brothers and sisters.