) I just noticed that the story I typed up in the initial post actually has several typos. Please excuse me. I have this weird habit of posting before checking for any errors.

I agree with all the points you guys presented. I guess I am just against the common mutual attacks I have seen people make against each other, and yet they all call themselves Muslims. My point was that we should strive for the common cause belief in Allah SWT, His Revelations and follow Islaam the way it is.

I know what you mean when you say sunnis tend to express more intolerance towards "other" Muslims. Personally, I come from a country where majority of Muslim people were taught that they follow "Sunni" way of Islam. Cannot remember which school of thought, though. So, based on that one can call me a "Sunni" Muslim, but I personally prefer just a Muslim. I have been called "Qur'anist" or "Qur'an-aloner" despite the fact that I have always expressed that Qur'an is my Divine Book of Choice, Hadiths are history with some true and fake stuff mixed in. Like you, I opose what I personally view as anti-islamic practices, such as "honor" murders, capital punishment for apostasy, opression of sisters, opression of minorities, etc. Yet, when I look around the world I see this more as an Arab world problem rather than Muslim issue in general. I always say, the more East one goes the more "Islam" as a way of life turns into opression. The further West you go, the more likely you are to meet Muslims closer to true practice of Islam.

I agree that we need to discuss issues. We need to talk. We need to help each other understand the fallacies of certain practices. But, we need to find a way and do it in a more effective manner. And the best way to approach the situation, in my personal opinion, is to keep bringing attention to the Qur'an and open discussion on its teachings. That is the only, healthy way I see people coming back to Qur'an.

We can learn from the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He preached and taught truth. He challenged false beliefs and practices. And the Noble Qur'an has documented that has caused wars, attacks on the Muslim community, etc. In the end, Islam and Muslims won, but it was a long struggle. Considering that Islam is a peaceful way of life, our approach should be peaceful as well. Telling someone 'stoning is wrong' when we know that they will just go back to their old, "ancient" of ways is not effecting. Telling someone "lets discuss this surah" where adultery punishment is mentioned, and no 'stoning' of any kind found at all, is more likely to open the door for us to help someone understand what the Divine Book actually teaches.

Wasalaam.

Salaam,

I hope you do go back to prayer, Indelwyn. Holy Qur'an is trully a Miracle because I have no problems memorizing surahs in Arabic. Once I learn it, I cannot forget it. It is the native language translation that I have trouble with. Strange, I know, but it is so true. I think because very often translations are not 100% close to the original Arabic words in the Qur'an. Perhaps that is why the Ummah has prayed in Arabic for such a long time.

Anyway. What I have been trying to help myself is to memorize generalized interpretation of each surah/prayer when I recite them during the salaat. For example, what does 'Allahu Akbar" mean. And, as I am reciting words in Arabic, I try to get that general meaning repeated in my mind. I have been struggling with concentration in prayer for a long time, but I found that this does help. You might try it. Also, after each formal salaat I like to say a dua in my own language (sometimes English, depending of my mood) and I express gratitude. This helps too.

Allah SWT should be both, because no one or anything else deserves to be worshiped and served more than He. People worship lots of things. They always have. From fanatical fans of celebrities who pass out in adoration of their human idols, to hindus who worship in adoration elephants and monkeys. But all that is worthless and will lead them to Hell.

Allah SWT is The One to worship and serve. You serve Him in everything you do that is good, including worship.

I already answered you, Producer. When Christians use your logic, they would like to say that if you find one true verse in the Bible, then the whole Bible is true. But Qur'an does not say that. What Qur'an says is this

1. Allah SWT sent Revelations to the House of Israel.
2. Some among the Jews and Christians have forgotten and rewrote some of the Revelations, using something that is of little worth.
3. But, in all they have there is some truth in it.
4. That which correlates with the Last Revelation (Qur'an) is true and Qur'an states that it confirms those.
5. That which is false, Qur'an refutes (such as 'divine sonship' of Jesus, crucifixion of Jesus, trinity, etc.).

And those are my final answers. I say the same thing to Christians who wish to debate such with me, keeping in mind that no matter how my arguments make sense they will still believe what they want.

Tyler gave similar example with hadiths, although I do not agree with the fact that even when a hadith correlates with the Holy Qur'an that people must not follow it. I just think that hadiths we have need serious revisions, drastic reform, etc. And people need to understand that Hadiths are not divine source. The only Divine Word we have is Holy Qur'an. Hadith Qudsi are beautiful, but I feel if they were Divine in origin, they would be in the Noble Qur'an. Hadith writers invented Hadith Qudsi to force the masses to not object to any of the hadiths.

The Holy Qur'an has over 200 verses that correct the biblical ones. I do not need to look into the Bible, although I respect it and believe that Allah SWT sent Revelations to Jews and Christians, in order to be a Muslim. All that I need to believe is in the Noble Qur'an. At least for me. Hadiths, like I said once before, are not all evil. Muslims need revision of hadiths not elimination of them. Hadiths are a history document. And some of them are in accordance with the Noble Qur'an.

The radical populations of Muslim Ummah follow the many horrible biblical teachings (the teachings that I mentioned), and which are served to them as "hadiths" of Prophet pbuh and his companions. Therefore, Muslims engage in behaviors that are not islamic, but rather biblical

1. "honor" killings found in the Bible, no where in the Qur'an.
2. "suicide bombers" the first suicide killer documented was biblical Samson. The bible said that this man killed more of his enemies at the time of his death than he killed in his lifetime.
3. murder of atheists found in the Bible. The Qur'an is specific that there is no compulsion in religion, except when Muslims are attacked first for their Islam.
4. no tolerance of other religions/non-believers and racism found in the Bible, not the Qur'an.
5. marrying children the Old Testament we have today actually has a verse saying one can have sexual relations with a 3 year old
   and many others.

Producer, I think you have problem understanding English. One cannot state that all of the Bible is either true or false (unless one is Christian or a Jew). But as a Muslim you can state not all of the Bible we have is true, as the Qur'an teaches.

Wasalaam.

Also, the current Bible contains many contradictions. Do you still believe all of it is 100% true? If the free-minds.org purpose is to preach that Judaism and Christianity, along with the New and Old Testaments we have today, are 100% true, than everyone on this forum is misled!! Then, it is nothing but another of anti-islam movements attempting to divide and confuse Muslims even more. Nice job!

Producer, you are so stuck on the Bible and Qur'an, equating the current Bible with the Qur'an, that one cannot wonder who are you really Muslim or a Jew/Christian? Regardless who you are, I will respect you. But, please do not push me to provide you with arguments you cannot deal with (in order to prove to you that you are in the wrong if you think that today's Bible, both Testaments, are what Moses and Jesus pbut taught people).

You obviously did not read all of my posts on this forum, for if you did you would not write that I believe Bukhari as 'divine' written text or that I believe Hadiths 100%. But even if I did so believe, there is plenty of evidence from the Holy Qur'an to show you that the Bible we have today is not Torah, Injeel, the Book of Abraham nor the Zabur of David. Nor is it any of the revelations/writings from other Prophets (Isaac, Jacob, etc).

No one said all of the Bible is fake or false. Even the Noble Qur'an states that not all of it is true. But why follow the Bible the way it is today when you have the Noble Qur'an?

Producer, if you want to follow and believe all of the Bible as it is today, then that means you accept Christianity's teaching that Jesus is "son of God" and your "Lord." Also, if you believe that OT and NT are 100% of Divine Origin (I believe some of it might be, but not all of it), then you agree with stoning and burning to death of women who commit adultery (see OT), you believe non-believers in God are to be put to death immediately (OT), no tolerance for religions other than Islaam (OT and NT), that a rape victim should be put to death (OT), , etc.

Qur'an 2
Qur'an 2101 "And when there came to them a messenger from God, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of God behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know."

Qur'an 3187.And remember God took a covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made!

Qur'an 259.But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.

Qur'an 513-14"But because of their breach of Convenant.... they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds) for God loveth those who are kind. 14.From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will God715-A show them what it is they have done."

Those are some of the ayat from the Noble Qur'an telling you that Jews and Christians have changed, added to, hid, etc. the Word of God revealed to the earlier Prophets.

Producer, here is your answer to your repeated Bible and Jesus question. I posted it on the other thread, but since you did not read it, here it is again

The word "Bible" is not mentioned in the Noble Qur'an. What Noble Qur'an mentions is

1. The Book of Abraham (no where found in today's Bible),
2. the Book of Moses or Taurat (which is not the 39 books of today's Old Testament and they are NOT the first five of them called Pentateuch as those have more than one written source),
3. Zabur of David pbuh (In the Old Testament of the Bible, there are Five Books of Psalms comprising of 150 Psalms. Out of these 150, a total of 73 Psalms are ascribed to Prophet David; 51 to anonymous writers, 12 to Asaph or his descendants; 9 to the sons of Korah -temple assistants; 2 to King Solomon and one each to Heman, Ethan (a musician) and Prophet Moses.
4. Injeel/Gospel revealed to Jesus pbuh (which is different from the Gospels from the four apostles because Injeel confirmed Taurat and I already mentioned that Taurat is not all that is written in today's Old Testament)
5. The Revelations to other prophets as stated in this ayat "Say ye "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismai'l, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." 2 136. Today's Bible has no books ascribed to Ismai'l, Isaac, Jacob or the Tribes.
6. The Noble Qur'an Revelation.

The Holy Qur'an states "But because of their breach of their Covenant We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them nor wilt thou cease to find them barring a few ever bent on (new) deceits but forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds) for Allah loveth those who are kind." 5 13

I have met my share of atheists in my life and as a child hearing this story I did not take it to generalize all. What the story told me is that an atheist can be just as fanatical as a believer in their convictions. Also, what I heard from the story as a child is perseverance of a believer, the want from one's heart to believe. And belief in God Almighty SWT must come from the heart. One can follow all the rituals of a prayer, but the heart without belief causes prayer to be empty too. Also, I think the story was told to me because Arabic is not my native language. I found myself not understanding much of what surahs I was reciting. The fact that the little kid did not too, but was shown Mercy by Allah SWT, gave me hope that Allah SWT will show me Mercy too.

Thank you. The ayat 2239 makes me hope. I always have hope. But, I cannot but worry. Regardless of what I do, or if I make a mistake or if I commit a sin, I will always have hope. That is what keeps me going... if I did not have hope that Allah SWT will guide me and help me, then I would feel totally lost. Totally...

I already answered you on another topic regarding Jesus and the Bible. If you are a Christian then why are you on a Muslim forum, Producer? I do not whish to convert to Christianity. Believe me, I had many opportunities if I so chose. But I never will. Please leave me alone.

Salaam Producer,

If you are thinking of the Bible as it is, then I am probably disobeying much of it. Why? Well, here is the truth. The word "Bible" is not mentioned in the Noble Qur'an. What Noble Qur'an mentions is

1. The Book of Abraham (no where found in today's Bible),
2. the Book of Moses or Taurat (which is not the 39 books of today's Old Testament and they are NOT the first five of them called Pentateuch as those have more than one written source),
3. Zabur of David pbuh (In the Old Testament of the Bible, there are Five Books of Psalms comprising of 150 Psalms. Out of these 150, a total of 73 Psalms are ascribed to Prophet David; 51 to anonymous writers, 12 to Asaph or his descendants; 9 to the sons of Korah -temple assistants; 2 to King Solomon and one each to Heman, Ethan (a musician) and Prophet Moses.
4. Injeel/Gospel revealed to Jesus pbuh (which is different from the Gospels from the four apostles because Injeel confirmed Taurat and I already mentioned that Taurat is not all that is written in today's Old Testament)
5. The Revelations to other prophets as stated in this ayat "Say ye "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham, Ismai'l, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." 2 136. Today's Bible has no books ascribed to Ismai'l, Isaac, Jacob or the Tribes.
6. The Noble Qur'an Revelation.

The Holy Qur'an states "But because of their breach of their Covenant We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them nor wilt thou cease to find them barring a few ever bent on (new) deceits but forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds) for Allah loveth those who are kind." 5 13

Prophet Moses pbuh is not refered to until in the third line you cited. Which makes sense because the call is to the people of Moses pbuh (Jews) to believe in Muhammad pbuh (the gentile messenger, the one who comes outside the Jewish Community). And, it says the gentile messanger is mentioned in the Torah and Gospel. Moses did not live in the time of Gospel (the New Testament) revealed to Prophet Jesus pbuh.

Salaam Emil,

Moses cannot be 'gentile messanger' because he was one of the Hebrews. In the Holy Bible, 'gentile' usually refers to someone outside the Hebrew community. This can only refer to Muhammad pbuh.

Salaam Producer,

I am not understanding why are you bugging me about Jesus' Bible? Allah SWT states in the Qur'an that the Holy Bible is previous revelation. Muslims are to respect it and believe it to be one of the Revelations. Now, where the Noble Qur'an states that the Bible has been amended by some Jews and Christians, the Noble Qur'an corrects a lot of it.

So, why are you bugging me about Jesus pbuh and the Holy Bible? You do not believe Bible to be Allah's SWT Revelation or?... ???

Salaam,

Producer, I checked my original post and I did not find anywhere where I mentioned not to follow Jesus. whatever

Assalamu alaikum--

Once again, a very short reply. Student of Allah, thank you for your post. Student of Allah, may Allah SWT bless you forever, because you just hit the nail on the head by reminding us all of the ayat you quoted from the Noble Qur'an 727 O Children of Adam, do not let the devil afflict you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removes from them their garments to show them their bodies. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made the devils as allies for those who do not believe.

Precisely the point I tried to make, but this ayat articulates it way better than I ever will.

Regarding Rashad Khalifa, like I said, I agree with most of his "submitters" arguments but I do not accept the fact that he was a Prophet pbuh. I believe the Last, the Seal of Prophethood, was Prophet Muhammad pbuh. I do see what Khalifa attempted to do, to some degree.

Producer, you keep asking me about a verse from the Noble Qur'an stating where does it state not to follow Jesus pbuh. I have to go back to my previous post, to see what I initially wrote.

In regards to Jesus pbuh, I think the Noble Qur'an is very clear that Jesus pbuh was a Muslim, just like all the Prophets of Allah. One being a Muslim today follows Jesus pbuh, then, as well as Muhammad pbuh and any other Prophets pbut all that came before Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh.

Salaam to all of you--

Thank you for responses. Currently, I am taking a short break at work so I cannot write a longer post. Emil, I certainly do not plan to leave. I think that Muslim Ummah has been long overdue for some rational thinking, if you know what I mean

Anyway, someone commented that they also do not reject all of the Hadiths but does not consider them divine in origin. I, too, am of the same mind. The way I view Hadiths is a useful reference to give us an idea of what the first Muslims were like, what our Prophet pbuh might have been like, etc. It's a history. But, when it comes to anything we might look for as Divine, I believe that is the Noble Qur'an. No question about it!

I grew up in fairly unreligious environment, but the Muslims who were pious around me did not put so much emphasis on the Hadiths as they did on the Noble Qur'an. It is in my later twenties that I came in touch with the way majority of the Arab Muslims approach Islam. In some ways it saddened me to see how much people can be obsessed with Hadiths, how much they are afraid to question it. Even when some of the hadiths are straight out anti-Qur'an in their teachings.

When I started coming back to Islam (I was born a Muslim, always believed in Allah SWT, but was not very good about practicing) someone gave me some books to read. I thought, ok. But I got to tell you that the books scared the living lights out of me!! It's from a Saudi-style "Islam" and I felt like crying like a baby reading those. Why? Because they portraid our Prophet pbuh as a "merciless murderer, child marrier" etc. Everything contrary from what I have heard about Prophet Muhammad pbuh from my childhood, everything contrary from what the Noble Qur'an told me about about him.

Also, some of the hadiths are bluntly rediculous, illogical, etc. One quotes a person seeing a "he-monkey stoning a she-monkey." I was like, what? Are you kidding me? Or another when where someone reported Prophet Muhammad pbuh taking a sip of water and then spitting into another person's mouth. I was floored! To this day I cannot believe that someone, a Muslim believer, would want to believe that kind of c**p.

Anyway. I will try to make it back as soon as I can. Wasalaam to all.

Salaam Tyler--

I think your family are not challenging you enough ) Instead of asking you "what about follow the Messanger of Allah?" I would have asked you "do you believe Islam is the religion of Abraham?" If you answered 'yes,' then my question to you would be "Did Abraham savs perform Hajj, give zekat, etc?" And if you were to say 'yes,' then my next question would be "The Holy Qur'an tells you to follow the religion of Abraham Islaam. It tells you that he performed Hajj, sacrificed a sheep, etc. But how do you--in this age and time--know how to perform these duties of the religion of Abraham? Muslims before you knew, the ones during the Qur'anic revelation. How do you think that knowledge would have reached us if there is not hadiths to tell us about it?"

Those would be my questions. I would support your view that the Noble Qur'an should be absolute textual authority on Islam, but I would say that the hadiths to follow must be in accordance with the Qur'an as evident from the questions I posed for you.