It is not a question of denying that jinn is the white race, or alternatively, that they are offensive beings, as described in hadith. However Satan has gained his reputation.
You did not answer my question? Are black men morally superior?

Mr. Deen,

I'll have to make this my last post tonight. But I think you can answer your own question. Of course black people aren't morally superior, each man woman and child has the free will to be of high moral value whether you are Jinn or Insan. First to be more precise, define black men. Is that anyone of a pure negroid race? Is Obama black etc etc. I think it is pointless to reduce morality to the color of our skin but as has been said before it can be useful in tracing our ancestry.

Second, our morals depend almost completely on our upbringing. Regardless of our skin color or blood line ancestry, if we are raised in a community of good moral values then chances are we will become a person with a strong moral character. Now keeping that in mind, imagine you are born to a very pure line of Iblis or the Jinn. And imagine that your family and peers were very headstrong about following Iblis promise of bringing as many Insan to hell as possible. This would be taught to you and become part of your character, thus you would most likely be of a low moral standard. Now perhaps, because you are of a pure Jinn bloodline, your skin may most likely be of a paler tone, but so what? That doesn't mean we can generalize and say white people are of lower moral stock.

Having said that, you cant deny that the world bankers and royal bloodlines that dominate world policy are almost exclusively white AND they have portrayed qualities of blatant racism, not to mention other Jinn like qualities as told in Quran. They are also strong supporters of eugenics policies. So put the dots together man, So what if the royal family have white skin. So what if they are Jinn. The fact is they are judged by their actions and intentions NOT their skin tone.

Peace and good night.
.....Because, because, because, because, because......because of the wonderful things he does.

Amin.. there are no strawmen here, it is you, who claim some kind of moral perfection of black men, and that white men are the ones, who whisper evil into their minds.
Spawn of satan was your own words. Satan does not reproduce, it is a spirit. Else one would have "children of satan". Where do you find this concept in the Quran?

And if you were to put black men, unmixed, pure race, they would not commit evil, since the presence of satan is not there?

No...YOU build the straw men. You claimed Bush was a vampire not me. You started the spawn of Satan in regards to Obama. I simply followed up sarcastically but now I've had enough of your straw men. Now you have finally made a claim to suggest your own opinion. How long did that take Mr Straw Man? So show me your evidence that Satan is a spirit... I'll wait. Then I will show you the evidence from Quran that Iblis or Satan was a man on Earth, not a spook. What do you follow the silly hadith that say Jinn are invisible spooks who eat feces and live in your toilet?

It's late on this side of the planet so I will try to respond tonight. If not I will soon.

Peace...
....We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of........

George Bush is not a vampire...come one man don't be ridiculous. And quit building straw men out of my claims. Be logical please. And Vlad Dracul wasn't a vampire. His life just inspired the fairy tale. Anyway, I forgot to tell you that I found an article that states Obama is a distant cousin of both Dick Cheney AND George Bush. So claims Lynee Cheney, Dicks wife. So maybe Obama IS the spawn of the devil! Who knew??? Link is below

http//www.nypost.com/seven/10172007/news/regionalnews/dissing_cousins__obama__cheney.htm

Its a mad world brother.

You are kind of funny mister deen. Are you white? Oh oh maybe you are the spawn of the devil...! Quit worrying about races and focus on the facts. Iblis was the father of a white race meaning they had a white skin tone but the race is identified by a God given name, Al Jinn. Insan is for Adams bloodlines. Quit thinking in black and white, this is what breeds racism, just think in terms of two different Fathers of two different families or tribes. The devil is Iblis who was a mortal. I have not explained him away but actually explained him into existence since the mumbo jumbo of spooky jinns and the fiery side of man jinns do the job of explaining away the devil perfectly.

The verses you posted are great. They show what character traits dominate the psyche of the Jinn that are manipulating our world today. Did you know that George bush is a blood line descendant of Count Vlad Dracul or Vlad the Impaler of Romania? Who was indeed a fair skinned man from the same areas that a white race was believed to originate from. Kind of interesting. Bush very well may have strong Jinn genetics running through his blue blood. This is also true for the royal family.

You know you could have Iblis blood running through your veins but so what?! You found God, what have you to worry about?

Peace, don't let thoughts of white Jinn make you lose sleep.

Salaam Ahmad,

I agree. Knowing the skin color helps us understand who is who. What I meant was in the long run it doesn't matter anymore what skin color you have because most of us are all mixed up. You cant rely on skin color alone to know who the Jinn are anymore though it can help. It is best now to trace genetics to find origins of ancestry.

Anyway I believe you are mistaken about the Black race not being able to reproduce a recessive gene. I learned this in High School biology. The black race contains genetic information for both dominant and recessive genes. In fact there is a 7 to 9% chance that two black couples and give birth to a child that displays recessive qualities in one generation. The chances are slim but it is possible. Therefor, the black race could have fathered different skin tones in the long run. This is scientific fact my brother.

However, the white race does not contain the elements of a dominant gene. It is impossible for two white people or two people with recessive traits to give birth to a child containing dominant genes. That is two white people can never have a dark skinned child. This makes it even more difficult to tell who is who nowadays.

I have also heard the theory of Eve procreating with Iblis and it could be true especially if we consider all the stories of Adams eviction center around shame and sexual overtones. An interesting topic.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. This topic really can get people fired up. That is talking about Insan and Jinn and races etc. I like it. Take care.

Peace

Exactly. And Obama is a decendant of Satan, the jinn? He is a jinn? Ok, following this logic.. Obama inherits the qualities of Satan, which would not be a far off relative, since
the earliest abrahamic scriptures we know (judaism) is atleast 10000 years old, and he was still alive at the time of Mohammed (pbuh). This will be the longest president running we have ever had!

Mr. Deen,

I was just kidding about Obama. Anyway, Iblis is dead. He grew old and died just like Adam and all other mortal men on Earth. Iblis has descendants just like Adam did. They know their ancestry and lineage and know where they came from. I also agree about Edip's comment. Iblis was very arrogant and he passed that trait onto his following generations. I also agree that skin color doesn't matter, that's why I prefer to use the words Allah gave us in Quran to describe the two different races. Al Jinn and Al Insan, rather then split hairs over what color their skin was.

Peace

Mr. Deen,

Quote "cough for the sake of argument. And if Iblis has decendants, of which Jesus is not (he is of fatherless origin), who is Iblis contemporary today? Maybe a man named Charles? And why doesn't the Quran warn of this Charles?"

Beats me.... maybe David Rothschild or Prince Charles...or hey,...maybe Obama? The Quran warns us of Al Jinn. If there is reference to a specific person I am not aware of it. But I think its not important to focus on one personality but on the entire families or tribes so to speak.

BTW, whats your take on the fact that Quran ALWAYS mentions Angels in HUMAN form when they mingle with people and prophets??

Peace

http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/4/171/

No, he calls himself Son of Man, is because he is of fatherless origin, like Adam.

What is your commentary on the above verse, where Jesus is said to be a spirit of God? (and according to you, Jesus by this, is a decendant of Satan, and white)

Mr. Deen,

Right now, based on the evidence I have collected, I am leaning more towards the concept that Mary was not a virgin and that Jesus was born the old fashioned way just like the rest of the prophets. But that is another topic. However if this were true than he couldn't possibly be speaking of a fatherless birth when mentioning the Son of Man. I'm quite sure that his Son of Man reference was about his lineage to Adam's blood line. Also, it may have been that his father was Gabriel in human form...hmmmm. I noticed in that link you showed me, that the word for spirit might be equated with Gabriel. If so, perhaps Gabriel was his father, but Mary would have been a black woman and of the Al Insan bloodline which would make Jesus also a Son of Man or a descendant of Adam. Also, if you look at every other reference to Angels in Quran when they interact with people, they are always in the form of Men or humans. As if, once Angels enter the physical world they must take human form. Both Lut and Abraham were fooled into thinking their angelic guests were just human. If this is the case, then it would make sense that when Gabriel visited Mary he was in Human form and perhaps he procreated with her. But Gabriel is not Iblis as Iblis is a completely different personality and came to Earth the same time Adam did and fathered children as Adam did. In other words Iblis was just a mortal man. So I don't see how you equate this with Jesus being white and a son of Iblis. Besides, do we know what color Gabriel's skin was when he came to Mary in human form? Me thinks he would have chosen to appear much like the people of the area and been black, but who knows. Interesting, but now that you have reminded me, I think I have heard of this theory of angelic copulation which lead to Jesus birth before. Have to look into it more.

Peace

Amin74 Jesus was white, in other words?

No Jesus was black and a direct line of Al Insan. Even in the Bible he frequently makes this known by calling himself the Son of Man. The Son of Man means of the lineage of Adam. He also uses the dichotomy of the two races when he confronts the corrupt Pharisees on the Mount of Olives as seen in John 8, who were no doubt of a much paler skin tone. He first makes a strong emphasis on his own origins when asked who he is by the Pharisees by almost sternly proclaiming he is the Son of Man, or of Adams blood line, then he turns to the Pharisees and openly proclaims them to not only be NOT of Jesus' ancestry but children or descendants of the Devil. Read it. Its quite good. It was these Pharisees and their heritage that were responsible for the mammoth tome of Talmud, the idolatrous addition to Judaism, the equivalent to Islam's hadith. The Jinn at work.

Peace

You have followed a mindset that is in conflict with the statement that Iblis refused to bow, because he was of the jinn race. He refused to do the will of God. Any human can be muslim.
And some jinn too. However, satan refused. And this does not support your racist statment. Indeed it is Iblis here, who is the racist.

Hey Mr. Deen,

I don't quite follow what you are saying here, but I do agree that Iblis was the racist. He simply could not consider himself as an equal to Adam and his lineage. This is why he was damned from the get go. And this is why a small minority of people alive today who are very obsessive with their direct genetic line to Iblis are still trying to carry out his plan of trying to drag as many Insan to hell with them. However there are some members of these Jinn families that don't walk the walk of their first father.

Think about it. What is the main form of corruption that has infiltrated every religion? That's right Idolatry or shirk. Remember, the only unforgivable sin if practiced until death? The Hadith, the Talmud, the Straw man of Jesus, all of these things are innovations of the very Human Jinn living among us coercing us all towards idolatry through our ignorance. It's easy to identify them because God revealed their master plan to us all in Quran. They have specific character traits, one being arrogance but over all it is their master plan that will identify them. Anyone who manipulates us towards Shirk on a mass scale willingly is definitely a Jinn. Think United Nations and their call to a New world order and religion of earth worship. It's all there. Thank God for Quran or we might still really be in the dark as to who these people are and what they are up to.

peace brother

Hey Progod,

I understand your reaction to what I said about Caucasians but please don't misunderstand me. I am not trying to promote one race over another. All I'm saying is that in the beginning their were two races. One happened to have black skin and the other white skin. It doesn't really matter what color their skin was. I myself am a mix of European Caucasian, Central American Native and Palestinian Semite. I may very well have blood from the original Jinn race in me. I think we have to stop thinking in terms of race as we understand it today. No one is pure anymore. We should just say their were to types of men created and they had different skin color for whatever reason God chose this to be. Research the origins of the words Al Jinn and Al Insan. You will see what I'm talking about. These are clearly separate titles that God used to describe the different lineages.

Who really cares what color they were in the beginning, except to understand our history. Also notice how I mentioned above that despite the fact that this pair of races were created separately and as enemies, God with his divine sense of humor, made it physically impossible for us not to interbreed. Man I love Gods sense of humor and irony. Despite our different origins, we are forced to interact and work together. However, their still exist some Jinn families who are hell bent on fulfilling Iblis' goal of trying to take as many Insan to hell with him, through idolatry. The only way they can guarantee success.

Yes, many people who you would look at and in first glance call Caucasian are indeed of the Insan bloodline or mostly of it. But what is a Caucasian to you nowadays anyway? Someone who is REALLY white or just a little white? Or do they have to be from Armenia? I think you are getting upset mostly about semantics. The word Caucasian does not stand for either Insan or Jinn or any race for that matter. It is a relatively new word that people generally identify with anyone who has a lighter shade of skin. So yes, some so called Caucasians are Insan AND some so called Caucasians are Al Jinn. It's common sense to see it that way. Besides, even modern science has put a thorn in the side of racism based on skin color because now we can trace our racial ancestries through genetic blood lines and not by our shade of black or white or brown.

The word race is a misnomer today. It really cant describe accurately what race really is because we always connect it with skin color. Race is simply ancestry and bloodlines, or in other words families, tribes etc, and in the beginning there were 2 families. Al Jinn and Al Insan. Everything in pairs brother. I love the way God works.

BTW, its nice to be active again on these boards. Hope everyone is fairing well.

Peace

Mr. Deen

You mean ridiculous right? Anyway what is so ridiculous about it? I was hoping for a more insightful comment. I have been researching this for a long time and the only conclusion of Al Jinn as mentioned in Quran that does not cause contradiction is the one that they are a race of people on Earth. I have followed the claims that Al Jinn represents the so called fiery side of man and the claims that they are invisible spooks but both sides always bring up terrible contradiction when studied from a Quranic perspective. If it contradicts it is not from God, nor is it the truth.

I think one thing people have missed is that Al Jinn and Al Insan are uniquely Quranic words. They have no English equivalent which is why there has been so much confusion in translation. Bashar means a human or humanity and is an Arabic word predating Quran but Insan is not nor is Jinn. The best translation of Al Insan would be 'of the blood line of Adam' and Al Jinn would be 'of the bloodline of Iblis' its quite simple actually. Also, I have found no evidence of Al Jinn as it is used in Quran existing in pre-Islamic Arabia. There are other uniquely Quranic words such as saqar but few people have looked into this phenomenon which is why I would like others opinions on it here. I'm still looking into these things and need some help.

Another thing to consider is that both Insan and Jinn are always prefixed with the definite article Al, meaning they are not a general term but refer to a unique and specific name or title. Of course the silly notion of spooky Jinn comes from pre-islamic paganism and originated first from Armenia (a white race) and migrated to northern Italy and Rome almost 4000 years ago, but the name used for them was Genius in Latin, which later became Genie in French and from that became the English word Genie we know today. The only other existing Arabic manuscript which speaks of spooky Jinn that I know of, and this came after Quran, is the story's of 1001 nights. The one about Alladin and his lamps and other fairy tales from the area. Most of these were written by Persians and this book can be dated to almost the exact same time that the Hadith we read today were being penned. Coincidence? I doubt it.

Even the translator of the most famous English translation of 1001 Nights could find no pre-Islamic Arabic roots for Al Jinn as is found in Quran. The word just did not exist until Quran came around. What happened is that the spooky concepts of Genius migrated East of Rome about 1000 years before Muhammad and penetrated some areas of Northern Arabia. These concepts were known to pagan Arabs as Ginayye. Phonetically very identical to the Genius. These superstitious concepts were only later inserted into Quranic tafsir around when the Hadith were being penned, again at the same time 1001 Nights was being written.

There is an entire Surah in Quran dedicated to Al Jinn. This is because they are a race of men descended from Iblis but have always made their presence hidden to Al Insan. And this is because they consider themselves mortal enemies to Al Insan. Muhammad and his companions who witnessed the revelation of Quran knew very well of this race of people and their origins. They were told to be careful of them.

Allah made everything in pairs including the human race which includes Al Jinn and Al Insan. A black race and a white race. There is a lot of archeological evidence which points to a white race which evolved independently of an African black race and came from the areas of Armenia and the Caucasus Mountains. 6000 year old Nubian writings have also been found which tell of a white race which appeared from the north and caused trouble. So much so that they had to be physically escorted from the area. This white Al Jinn race of course still exists and they exist in their purest form in some of the richest and most dominating families in the world today. These include the blue blooded European Royal families, The DuPonts, The Rothschilds, The Rockefellers, The Van Duyns, The Disneys...to name a few. All of these families still try to only marry cousins or second cousins. They want to keep their blood lines as pure as possible. Remember why Iblis was cursed in the beginning? Because he was so arrogant and believed he was the superior race to Adam. The families of Al Jinn for the most part still think this way. I'm being serious man. This is the way it is. Allah created a pair of races to populate the Earth and one would, in a sense, be enemy to the other.

Some mixing must have occurred. The Jinn only mixed when they were faced with the inevitable consequence of genetic deficiency which occurs through excessive inbreeding. Funny how God created these two races that inevitably would be forced to mix. Anyway, this undesirable effect of inbreeding was felt by a lot of the above mentioned families in the early part of the 20th century and late 19th century when many of their inbred children were still born or born with mental and physical defects. All popular concepts of genome collecting and eugenics comes from these people.

You should really look into this more and take it seriously because I know for sure that the Jinn take it very seriously. BTW, I doubt you or I have much Jinn in us at all if any. They are very selective. And unless you are related one of the 13 richest families in the world I doubt you are a Jinn. If you were you would probably be off creating world policy and manipulating world finances somewhere, not playing around on these message boards.

I have loads of information on these human Jinn so feel free to ask.

peace

And please feel free to talk about what you KNOW.... OR what you THINK. I would hate to censor peoples thoughts. After all how can we come to know anything if we don't first think?

Salaam Al Khidr,

Adam, according to the Qur'an, was indeed a black man. However, theoretically, all men stemmed from Adam, and everyone on the earth is part of his progeny; this also includes the European settlers and nations. So, where do you think the racial divide came from? If all men were originally black people (Nubians), how did white people get here? Are they from another progeny outside of Adam and Eve? Although it's easy to assume that the black Nubians migrated to different parts of the world, becoming isolated from the sun and paling their skin, and developing different languages, as many scientists today claim, there are clear distinguishments between blacks and whites that far surpass the color of skin; their behaviors are completely different as well. In many cases, Nubians and Caucasians (Europeans) seem like completely different species. What do you consider to be the stem of this racial divide, and why do you think black people and white people are so different from one another?

Peace,
Ahmad

Salaam Ahmad,

There was another race on Earth when Adam was alive and they were a white race. They may have appeared first in the regions of the Caucasus mountains in the areas around Northern Iraq, Armenia and Turkey. These were the race of Al Jinn the descendants of Ibliss. The race or descendants of Adam were named Al Insan by God in Quran. There were two races from the start, Al Insan and Al Jinn. Al Insan were black and Al Jinn were white. The father to AL Jinn was Iblis just as the father to Al Insan was Adam. I believe both races are no longer pure however the Al Jinn still alive today are very much into nepotism and purity of bloodlines. They do not like to mix if they don't have to because they, for the most part, believe themselves to be superior to Al Insan or the descendants of Adam.

Peace

Amin

I have to agree with Roshan. Al Quran does not put so much importance on ritual salaat as most Muslims do. If it is not mentioned in detail then their is an obvious reason. Its not that important. Besides salaat is simply a form of zhikir in a more physical sense. It is simply one way a person can remember Allah, and can be done any time any where. True Islam is not a faith of senseless ritual.

Having said that, I still enjoy doing salaat. But I tend to do it when I really feel I need it. Sometimes that is often sometimes not. Nut more important to me is to always try to have a sincere sense of nearness to my creator at all times.

Peace

Maybe......? ??? ???

Salaam,

I came across an article at Answering Islam.org the link is http//www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm

This article goes on to say how the God of Islam is the best makr and tries to tarnish Islam based on this word and it's use in Al Quran when it is used to describe Allah. The word means to plot or scheme and is also used in Al Quran to describe people who try to deceive. This is a doozy. The author is doing serious harm with this article. I think that a good response to it is needed. All we need is another act of tom foolery over weak semantics to cause more misunderstandg in an already misunderstood faith. Please check the article and let me know what you think. I posted here for Wakas and his research but I will also post it as it's own thread somewhere else.

peace

Salaam UC,

From verse 1698 it seems that Allah is definitely speaking of a specific personality namely Satan. See some of the translations from that link below.

Yusuf Ali - When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one.

Pickthal - And when thou recitest the Qur'an, seek refuge in Allah from Satan the outcast.

Arberry - When thou recitest the Koran, seek refuge in God from the accursed Satan;

Khalifa - When you read the Quran, you shall seek refuge in GOD from Satan the rejected.

Free Minds - So, when you study the Quran, you shall seek refuge with God from Satan the outcast.

From the selections above it would appear that Allah is speaking about one individual and this Satan could very well be the same Satan mentioned in verses such as 234 and 711-18. (These verses are speaking of Adams creation and Iblis' refusal to bow to him as well as him being cast out.) But what I noticed about those verses and a number of others that mention the same event, in 5 different translations, it always uses the word Iblis and Satan is only mentioned in brackets. I believe Iblis is the actual name of the Jinn personality that refused to prostrate to Adam and was cast out. However the word Satan may have other connotations or meanings. This i am unsure of. But it is interesting that none of the translations at your link used the name Iblis when it speaks of who or what we need to take refuge from.

I would say that the 'satan' mentioned in 1698 may very well not be the same personality that is Iblis as mentioned in 234, 711 and many other verses which talk about the specific event of Iblis being cast out. What needs to be done is a comparison between such verses to see which Arabic words are used in each one.

If verse 1698 is talking about the specific personality Iblis it would still not refute the argument that Iblis was or is a man. For one thing, Al Quran does not detail much about Iblis except the fact that he was or is a physical being like a man on Earth. We do not know what capacities he maintains while here. Did he grow old and die? Does he contain Ruwh as Adam does? We know he has free choice and we know he had that capacity before he was on Earth. We know he was sent to Earth with Adam. We know he must have a body in the physical world. We know he has offspring and tribes. We know he and his offspring are the avowed enemies of Adam and his offspring. But their are still many unanswered questions, none of which are answered if we make unreasonable assumptions, without evidence, that Iblis and jinn are spirits or spooks.

A lot more research has to go into this.

Peace

Salaam UC,

Thanks for the posts. I couldn't agree more. For example 37 which partially states "But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah".

This is a perfect example of how people have come to believe Jinns are spirits. If you look back at the verses posted in the argument you can see that there is not one verse that clearly says Jinns are spirits. NOT ONE. In fact most of them are saying that Jinn are men. Thanks again for that post. Allah is clear in telling us how people take a clear meaning and distort it like believing Jinns are spooks or spirits. Great stuff.

Verse 37 also confirms how people take allegories and expressions in Al Quran like this one from 2740 and take them literally.

2740
One who had the knowledge of the Book said I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored.

Clearly this is a perfect example of people who "follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings". In the twinkling of an eye is an idiomatic phrase. Anyone who takes this literally, without providing evidence of its supposed literal meaning elsewhere in Quran, is causing discord. There is no evidence in that verse alone that that phrase should be taken literally. Even afterwards it says 'when he saw it settled beside him'. Here it gives no clue as to how much time has passed. To assume it happened in a second is just conjecture. All languages are full of idioms. Like when people say, "I'll be back in a second." Any intelligent person knows this is an allegory or idiom and not to be taken literally. Again good work on showing that verse.

Verse 5515 which tells us of what Jinn are made of is also taken care of in the article I have linked above. Hope you have read it all.

When I first heard of Jinns I was always told they were spirits. But after actually reading what Allah says about Jinns it is clear they are men. Living and breathing, flesh and blood on the earth like you and me. It is so clear in Al Quran. One has to really distort the meaning of the verses and/or follow Hadith to actually believe they are spirits. Even Arnold was closer with his idea that they were a symbol of the fiery side of humans but I showed where he made his mistakes here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13858.msg164834#msg164834
I even posted evidence from the Bible at that link which conforms with Allah's words that Jinn are men and not spirits or spooks.

So what is your opinion on the stuff I posted above about Salaat? Indeed the Jews used to pray like the Muslims do today as Salaat was given to Abraham.

Also did you read all the translations I posted of Mubin I posted above? Yes Iblis and his offspring are a CLEAR enemy to us because they are men. Jesus knew this also as is stated in John 8 in the Bible.

One other thing. You posted a link to verse 1587. What was the purpose of that?

Peace

Salaam UC,

The language was fierce because the article was written as a rebuttal to Arnold Yassin's on 19.org on the same subject. Khidir and Arnold have a history. Insya Allah their is no bad blood running there.

Anyway, you said most of the Quran is meant literally which may be true but can you give me quranic evidence that the verse about the Jinn bringing the throne in the blink of an eye is literal? I believe the arguments that Khidir and I made that say Jinn are men and not spooks is very good and sound using verses from Al Quran to back it up. Could you please look over the argument on Jinn and try to argue using Quranic evidence than just disagreeing with it. Of course you dont have to but if you claim that Jinn are spirirts and that many people believe this you need to supply proof from Al Quran. Otherwise it is just conjecture. You say Jinn equal spirit. Every translation i have seen translates Jinn as a hidden thing or person. Not a spirit. Can you show me where you got this translation of Jinn from?

Surely 'many people believing Jinn are spirits' does not make it true. Many people believe following the sunnah of Muhammad will get them a one way ticket into paradise but we know that this is not true. I must advise to not accept something as truth until you can produce solid evidence for your case. If you can find the time please do so.

I will say again, Jinn are MEN, not spirits no matter how many people believe the latter. Read the evidence in that article, find evidence to support your claim and then reply to me.

As far as the salaat is concerned, that is Khidir's argument not mine. I haven't spent enough time researching that to make a comment. But again you simply disagreed without showing evidence. Why should I believe you if you provide no evidence concerning salaat? And I assure you that no hadith where used to justify the salaat argument.

When you said, "No christian or jew, or indeed other, prays like this." Did you mean as Muslims do in Salaat?

Quoting an article by Rashad Khalifa on salaat

"Quran conforms that Salat was lost after some generations for the people of the book. Losing it involved changing it in every aspect. The Salat as practiced today by most of the Jews and Christians is different than what was given to their prophets. Very few Jews and Christians have maintained the inherited Salat."

"In a book entitled "To Pray as a Jew" I found a lengthy explanation of the Prayers as done by the ancient Jews and few of the contemporary Jews. In this book the author put diagrams showing the movement and positions during the prayer. One look at these illustrations is enough for the Muslims to realize the similarity of the prayers of the Jews then and Salat as practiced by the Muslims." (Below I put the illustration from the article.)

http//i66.photobucket.com/albums/h246/Ali74/salaat.jpg

"In his comment about these positions the author wrote "In most contemporary congregations very few people keep to the tradition of falling prostrate. Sometimes it is only the Prayer leader and the rabbi who does so. In more traditional congregations, however, some worshipers, men and women, will join the Prayer Leader and rabbi in the act of prostrating themselves. In Israeli synagogues, the practice is more widespread than in synagogues elsewhere. Since this is a position that we are unaccustomed to, one who has never done this before might very well demur. But once accomplished, the experience provides such a spiritual uplift that one looks forward to repeating it. Those willing to try this ancient ritual form on the rare occasions that call for it might welcome the following diagrams of the correct procedure"

It is also interesting to learn from this book that the prayers of the Jews involve wash before the prayers, (like Wuduu or ablution for Muslims), and the call for Prayers (like the Azan for the Muslims)."

Whether you have read Khidir's full argument which supports 5 salaat using ONLY evidence from Al Quran I dont know. But it's up to you to decide how many times you will salaat in a day. Just don't overlook the evidence and show your own if you want to refute it.

You also said, "However I think you are making the same mistake as Arnold Yasin, in obscuring the Quran
With talks about physical realm vs spiritual realm. And disregarding, that the Quran says, it will raise man up from the dead. (with body)."

I think your statement makes it clear that you did not read the article. There is an entire peice that argues the existence of a spiritual realm versus a physical realm. Why do you assume that when Quran says man will be raised in body that his body will be physical? Where is your evidence to prove this assumption?

I have shown in my argument on Jinn being men at this thread, http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13858.msg164834#msg164834
That their is two processes of creation clearly described in Al Quran. The first takes place in the SPIRITUAL realm. See the verses below

1528 But when your Lord said to the angels "I am verily going to create a human being from fermented clay dried tingling hard;

1529 And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, bow before him in homage;"

Here we see Adams creation process which took place in the presence of Angels, in the spiritual realm. Allah says he will fashion him, or make his form. Obviously this form is not a physical body but it is a form none the less. This creation process also mentions the spirit or roh. Now if you read the next verse you will see the physical process of creation.

327 Who made all things He created excellent; and first fashioned man from clay,

328 Then made his offspring from the extract of base fluid,
Then He made his offspring from semen of worthless water (male and female sexual discharge).
Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;
Then He made his progeny of an extract, of water held in light estimation.
And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised

329 Then proportioned and breathed into him of His spirit, and gave you the senses of hearing, sight and feeling. And yet how little are the thanks you offer!

In the physical process it also mentions clay as a fashioned form but then mentions fluid or water, spirit and finally senses. Senses and fluid are absent in the metaphysical world but not in the physical world. Notice how both the metaphysical and the physical creations have form. When we are raised in body means we maintain our form but we are no longer physical beings. Again why do you assume that our form will be physical after we are raised and sent to either hell or paradise. Perhaps on the last day we are resurrected in our physical form but that is because we are still on Earth. But once judgment has passed and we are taken to our destined places we become spiritual beings but still maintain form and still have spirit or roh.

Verse 2259 is talking about resurrection in the physical world not in the spiritual world. Look again

Consider the one who passed by a ghost town and wondered, "How can GOD revive this after it had died?" GOD then put him to death for a hundred years, then resurrected him. He said, "How long have you stayed here?" He said, "I have been here a day, or part of the day." He said, "No! You have been here a hundred years. Yet, look at your food and drink; they did not spoil. Look at your donkey - we thus render you a lesson for the people. Now, note how we construct the bones, then cover them with flesh." When he realized what had happened, he said, "Now I know that GOD is Omnipotent."

The process at the end of that verse which mentions clothing bone with flesh is taking place in the physical realm not the metaphysical or spiritual realm. Do you have any better Quranic evidence to support your argument?

You also said, "About 2168 calling Satan a clear enemy. Maybe try a different translation."
Here are translations of the Arabic word Mubin from the link you showed me in verse 2168, keep in mind I also included enemy but that is not Mubin. The word preceding enemy is the word Mubin in each translation.

Literal - '...evident enemy.'
Yusuf Ali - '...avowed enemy.'
Pickthal - '...open enemy for you.'
Arberry - '...manifest foe to you.'
Shakir - '...open enemy.'
Sarwar - '...clearly your enemy.'
Khalifa - '...most ardent enemy.'
Hilali/Khan - '...open enemy..
H/K/Saheeh - '...a clear enemy.'
Malik - '...open enemy.'
QXP - '...an enemy that lays bare even your hidden imperfections.' (No clue how they got this translation)
Maulana Ali - '...an open enemy to you.'
Free Minds - '...a clear enemy.'
Qaribullah - '...a clear enemy,'
George Sale - '...your open enemy.'
JM Rodwell - '...avowed enemy'
Asad - '...your open foe,'

Looking at the various translations I must ask, did you check other translations when considering this verse?
Below is an excerpt from the article you didn't read that shows the meaning of Mubin

http//i66.photobucket.com/albums/h246/Ali74/Openenemy.jpg

I hope this information has helped brother.

Peace

Salaam Uncle Casual,

Would you please go to this link where Khidir has posted an article on Jinn using Quranic evidence as to their true nature. Please read it and then come back here and tell me what you think. Try to point out what you think is wrong or right about the article. lets use Gods words as proof as to what jinn really are.

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd2/jinn.htm

Peace