Have you ever visited Nepal, Recluse ?

Last year I had the fortune. On my first day at Pokhara, early at dawn our travel guide drove us to Sangarkot viewing site. I was wondering what the big deal was. I learned it soon enough. As the tip of the somber Annapurna range suddenly took a glorious golden hue at the moment of day-break, it was a spectacle to behold! Hardly have I ever seen such a marvel of nature with my own eyes. To experience this marvel one has to keep his eyes open for the exact moment of sunrise.

http//bengivenni.smugmug.com/WhatsThis/Aloka-Lekhana/fish-tail-peak/916306489_gTahK-L.jpg
(Photo credit https//alokalekhana.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/annapurna-peak-at-sunrise/)

Have you seen the marvel of the first day-break, Recluse?

By the ?first? day break I do not mean the first ever day-break in the history of the earth. The ?first day-break? happens every time the daylight outstretches the darkness of night. And every time it is a marvel.

Don?t get too weary of the night my friend, for the night gets darkest right before the dawn.

May Allah guide us to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

There is no earning or a free will a predestinated world.
btw. No one is able to lie against Allah, including Iblies. "aghwaytanee" does not mean astray.
What we stand for is then also predestinated. I can not see how you make this logic work for yourself.
btw when the quran says that Allah will be The Judge on the day we rise, what exactly will He judge if He already had decided that I will do exactly what He programmed in me?

Salam Bender.

I see how you are looking for room in Qur?an to support your ideas. I?ll not attempt a rebuttal. Each of us are responsible for our own understanding.

I?ll however try to answer your question above in red; perhaps, this will help you or someone else

God has not programmed anything in you. He has caused you to be. He has caused you to be the way you are. The way you are today, the way you will be tomorrow. The way you are born, the way you die ? all of it. He can and will judge what He causes to be. Like an author judges each of the characters in his novel and decides how each character end up being presented to the audience. Nothing can be held against God, like nothing can be held against the author for doing to the characters he himself caused to be in the first place.

I am, because My Master wants me to be. And my Master has absolute authority to judge me how He led me to be. It is only a mercy from my Master that He has given me the ability to think about the choices that I have and make up my mind about those choices and I own only the choices that I make, not the outcome thereof. But those choices are no more independent of God's will than each wave of the ocean is independent of the ocean. Just like ocean is the platform upon which the waves exist - God's will is the platform upon which this universe exists.

Let me make up a case to illustrate how we are responsible for our choices about our actions but not the predestined outcome of the actions. Let?s say I conspire to kill my boss. I give him a cup of tea with poison. If Allah hasn?t prescribed death for him, one way or another he will skip the tea/poison and survive. But I will be held responsible to my Master for attempting a murder. On the other hand ? consider a different case - maybe I gave my boss a cup of exotic tea with completely benign intensions. My boss has a rare condition of extreme allergy to that drink which even he didn?t know. He drinks it and dies of allergy. That is the death of that person determined by God ? like every death is. Although on strict cause and effect consideration my action has killed my boss ? I?ll not be judged as a murderer. Because I am only responsible for what is in my heart.

The test is real. The test is for us. We are the ones who need to discover ourselves through these tests. God is the one who sets the tests to lead us to the destination that each of us deserve. But yes, on absolute basis God owns the responsibility of every action of every being in this universe. Because He causes everything to be. He owns the crime of the criminal and the suffering of the victim. He created many of us to struggle in His path and then rightfully earn the fruit thereof. He also created many of us to get astray and rightfully earn the result thereof. That?s why Qur?an says that Allah destined many of the men and jins for the hell (Ref 7179). Indeed, He captures every point of observation and participates in every joy and pain through each point of observation that He created to explore His own creation. So, for Him it is a zero sum affair.

? ? ?

I don't recall saying that Iblis lied to Allah. That Allah led Iblis astray is of course a truth - it is all part of His plan. A being getting deviated due to its own choice and due to God's will are the opposite sides of the same truth. Because every being is caused to be by God.

BTW, what is your understanding of the term "aghwaytanee"? I took my understanding from Lane

http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0033%3Aentry%3DAgwAhu

But I am open to learning.

? ? ?

I believe that differences in these kind of subjects is not that important, because we all have different views, if it's not on this subject then for sure there is some other sensitive subject where we will differ in understanding.

This is the point where I do agree with you. The test is not how good we are at theology or how knowledgeable we are. Allah equipped each of us with different level of understanding, so we are only accountable to make the best use of that understanding which we have. Of course there will be differences in opinion and understanding. The real test is whether we can hold on to our faith by acting righteously throughout our life. As long as we agree on that we can coexist and grow together. And that takes me back to the point from where I started this thread.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Salaam Arman,

I am convinced that the quran we have today (in it's totality) is "speaking" the truth.
No. But don't stop reading
This is how I see it.
When you where born God knows that you have a maximum of 200 years to live if you live in the perfect way.
Every cigarette you smoke there will go 1 minute off from your optimal lifespan.
And so with every action.
Thus yes He knows your optimal lifespan but not when you will die, as it's your choice to smoke or not to smoke, of course UNLESS He speaks His word over you that you will die on time x, then you are predestinated.

If you think that God knows when you will die, then why will you take your son or daughter or mother or father or whoever to a doctor to heal him/her.
The doctor is useless, if God has determined that your son will live 87 years than it is even not needed to feed him when he is just a baby. God's word is will and if He decided 87 years of life for you son than do not feed him or take him to a doctor, God will take care of him and he will survive till he reaches 87.

Salam Bender.

Salam Brother Someone? this reply applies for you as well.]

The way I see it is - your views do not add up with the following verses of Qur?an

3154 (And) later, from after the distress, He sent down upon you security ? slumber veiled a faction of you while certainly a faction themselves made their souls anxious believing about God beyond the truth ?assumptions of ignorance ? saying, ?Is there anything for us from the command?? Say, ?Indeed the command ? all of it ? is for God?. They hide in their souls what they do not make apparent to you. They say, ?If there happened to be anything for us in the command we would not have been killed here.? Say, ?If you happened to be in your houses, those upon whom murder was booked would have surely come out towards their death-beds.? And so that God could test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts, and God is Knowledgeable of what (you) have in the breast.

? ?

1049 Say, ?I neither have power to harm my soul, nor to benefit (it) ? except whatever God wills. For every community there is a term ? so when comes their term there is no delaying by an hour, nor is there any advancing of it.?

? ?

7185 Do they not watch over the empire of the heavens and the earth ? and whatever God has created of things ? and perhaps that their term has actually come near? So, in what narrative (&#1613 after this will they put faith?

? ?

3134 Indeed God ? with Him is the knowledge of the hour. And He sends down the rain ? and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul can figure what it will earn tomorrow and no soul figures in which land it will die. Indeed Allah is Knowledgeable, Aware.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)

Especially if one takes your understanding, the claim in 3154 appears like an empty threat. In fact if I go by your logic our birth is also not decided by God ? it all depends on whether our parents chose to mate etc. Exalted be He! Above what they imply of Him.

By the way why are we going to hell if you murder someone? When you stand before Allah, you can defend yourself with
"well I was just helping you God.
I killed him when he was 35 years old and because the poor guy indeed died means that you already had determined that the poor guy will day at 35.
So I do not understand why you are judging me God, I was just helping you. I am killing in Your name."

I know that for some my view on this is shocking as this makes Allah not almighty according to some, but this is not the case.
Almighty is when you can do whatever you will without limits. And that is Allah, He does what He wills, that is Al Mighty.

I think you missed the point. Of course He can give me a brain damage or make me a zombie so that I will loose even to a frog. That is not the question I am asking.

I have clarified my understanding before, doing so once again, perchance someone listens.

Our parents do not create us or determine our birth. It is God who decides when each of us will come to the world. Our Parents just play along God?s will to earn the right of playing the role of parents, which too is predetermined for them. That is why our obligation to God supersedes our obligation to our parents.

The food that we eat is not ?produced? by us. Allah produces everything. We merely toil in the land and seas to earn our living which has been predestined. That is why we eat everything in the name of God.

When our children become sick and we go to the doctor, we are not fighting against death. We are merely playing our role predetermined by God to earn our satisfaction that we tried our best. That is why when our children die in spite of our best effort we have to accept the fate graciously.

Similarly when we earn the destination of the Garden or the Fire, we are not creating our destiny. We are merely earning our destiny. Guidance is only with God. He guides to the straight way whomever He wills.

Of course there will be people who will claim on the day of rising that they only executed God?s will. So did Iblis when he says? ?because you let me astray? (Ref 716)?. But their execuse will not hold any water. While God determined our destiny (including that of Iblis) He gave us the free will to earn that destiny. We are responsible for how we excercised that free will? not the outcome thereof. And God is not unjust by an atom?s weight.

I have a couple of verses for you
3140

3166
3167

5725

2038

And there are so many many more verses like this.
And think about the messengers, think about all the inspirations you get daily.

The word ?? can be translated as ?And to know..? as well as ?And to make known...?. Shahih International follows the second meaning in their translation, for example. I accept the second understanding for these verses because that is the only understanding which is consistent with other verses in Qur'an. God does not need to know anything. He knows what is in our hearts. But He creates the tests so that we can know ourselves what we actually stand for. And so that we can earn our destiny.

? ?

I know that most people of the world will remain confused about predestination because we humans are too arrogant to let go the notion that at the end of the day we are in control. Generally I try to ignore this debate? because this is not so much a question of understanding that can be explained, this is more of a question of humility ? on which we have to put Faith.

The God that I am slave to is not an entity existing In parallel to the entities of this universe ? playing with them some power game. God is the authority that is the ultimate Originator of every bit of information that makes up the universe? He Originates and sustains all matters, all energy, all senses and all consciousness. He is the One who feeds and is not fed (Ref 614). This feeding is not merely in terms of food ? it is in terms of information / decision as well. No one takes a decision and feeds back to God ? it is He who takes all decisions and feeds back to each of the pockets of consciousness that He himself originated. To each of these individual pockets of consciousness (which are we) it appears that they are taking these decisions, but in reality they are merely quarantined parts of the ever flowing consciousness Which has caused the universe to be and Which owns the existence, the actions and destinations of each of those pockets with absolute authority. So, it is not a question for me whether I have a free will independent of God - rather, I submit only to the authority who is driving my conscious experience including my free will. Call Him God, call Him Allah, call Him the Almighty, call Him the Brahman, or call Him the Spirit of the universe ? to that Supreme Authority I am slave to and to Him will I return.

With this I rest my case. May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Arman

Salam brother Bender.

I have been impressed with your understanding and analysis of Qur'an before so this sudden discovery that you believe in human free will independent of God is somewhat shocking to me. Could you please clarify the few points below

Q1 Do you have faith in Qur'an (as we have it with us today) in it's totality (as opposed to believing it is party correct and partly corrupted)?

Q2 Do you believe God knows when each of us will die?

If answer to both of the above is no, I have no farther botheration for you... you can believe whatever you like. But if answer to either of the above questions are yes, I will probably seek some more clarifications... for several things are not adding up.

Brother Someone.. the same questions apply for you.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Arman

---

P.S. With regards to your Tic-Tac-Toe Challenge ... the very fact the you are raising the question whether God can defeat you in a game is itself telling a ton. Perhaps you are missing the point that you do not exist independent of God.

But yet, let me demonstrate that God can defeat you in a TTT game

1. Can you make yourself loose a tic-tac-toe game... for example while playing with a kid... just to give the kid something to cheer about? If you can, then know that it is God who is defeating you. Because God is working through you.

2. Do you believe that your brain can be crippled in a way that you loose all your senses and intelligence? Do you also understand that God has absolute control over every matter in the world including the neurons in your brain? Perhaps you can add these two up?

Peace Arman, one can write a will hence there is the flexibility, otherwise one cannot make stuff up according to what they think it should read and likewise whatever they propose needs to be consist and not contradicting for each of the numerous combinations as in the above examples.

Yes, no confusion it's clearly written...
411 ... so if be nisan/womenfolk fawqa/above two (if 3+ daughters) so for them (f/p) third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) what left

Thanks for clarifying your understanding.

Per my reading however " " translates as "If they are women more than two" rather than "If be women more than two". And the implication is vast.

Best regards,
Arman

Brother Noon

We had this discussions before. I still hold that the inheritance rules in Qur'an can be implemented in several ways with some core principles being hard-coded. The society has the flexibility to implement within these guiding principles. I view your interpretation as one of the several potential plausible interpretations but not the only possible option.

However just to highlight a possible confusion from the above summary.. what is your suggested distribution for 10 sons and 4 daughters assuming no other beneficiaries? Are you suggesting sons would get 1/30 each and daughters 1/6 each? That is what your second chart means for me.

Regards,
Arman

When a people choose their traditions and practices of their parents over their God-gifted sense of right and wrong, they deserve to be deviated. They earn this deviation by engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war.

I think the above statement is what Recluse has been repeatedly saying is unfair. How much do people really chose? If I try to assume more about your response based on "engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war", I could assume you may categorize these people by how much harm (or peace) their actions result in.

Thanks Comrox.

I am not talking about people deserving deviation because of their religion / tradition. It is not the birth of a person to a religion that is to be held against the person - but his/her blind following of tradition especially when such following goes against his/her God-gifted sense of right and wrong. And this applies to people of all religions equally.

Being born of a Hindu family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But burning widows alive in the name of tradition is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Buddhist family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But persecuting Rohingyas in the name of Budhdhist solidarity is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Christian family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But practicing white supremacy ideology (like the KKK) in the name of Jesus is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Jewish family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But persecuting Palestinians in the name of Zionism is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

Being born of a Sunni family is not a sin, nor is it a sin that one follows what one finds best in the tradition that he inherited. But harboring hostility against the Shias (and vice versa) and people of other religion in general in the name of Islam is of course a sin - and whoever supports such view deserves the deviation and suffering.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

No one deserves to be deviated, they earn it themselves. I would opine that guidance is the set path/package for all and by their actions they choose and thereby earn deviation or further guidance.

When the community rejects the signs of God, they deserve to be deviated. Then they earn the deviation by following the footsteps of devil.

When a person takes worldly pleasure and desires as his goal of life he deserves to be deviated. Then he earns his deviation by acting wickedly and by consuming the unlawful.

When a people become heedless about living in sustainable manner and get obsessed with consumption, they deserve to be deviated - they earn the deviation by depleting the natural resources and destroying their own habitat.

When a people choose their traditions and practices of their parents over their God-gifted sense of right and wrong, they deserve to be deviated. They earn this deviation by engaging in sectarian hostility, conflict and war.

Our attitude and priorities decide what we deserve. Our specific choice of actions decide what we earn.

Hope this clarifies what I meant.

Reference verses from Qur'an based on which I am adopting this terminology

3181 Verily God has heard the statement of those who say, ?Indeed God is poor while we are rich.? We will record what they said and the killing of the Prophets without (any) right, and We will say, ?Taste the suffering of burning.?

3182 That is because what your hands have offered and that God is not unfair to His slaves.

... ...

564 And the yahud said, ?The hands of God are shackled?. Shackled are their (own) hands. And they are condemned for what they had said. No! His both hands are fully stretched out ? He spends however He wills. And what has been sent down to you from your Master surely augments many of them in their defiance and (faith) repression. And We have offered among them enmity and hatred till the day of rising. Every time they kindled the fire of the war it was put out by God and they become busy spreading corruption on the earth. And God does not love the corrupter.

565 But if that the fraternity of the book had faith and been conscious, surely We would have suppressed their faults for them and surely We would have admitted them into the gardens of delight.

... ...

730 He guided a group, and (for) another group - the deviation came true/rightful upon them. Indeed they take the devils as patrons from other than God thinking that they are being guided.

...

770 They said, ?Have you come to us that we be slave to God alone and we leave whatever our fathers happened to be slave to? Then bring us with what you promise us if you happen to be sincere.?

771 He said, ?Verily, filth and anger from your Master is due upon you. Do you argue with me concerning names that you have named them - you and your fathers ? (whereas) God has not sent down for them any (delegation of) authority? Then keep watching, indeed I am with you among the ones keeping a watch.?

772 So We saved him and those with him by mercy from Us, and We cut-off the roots of those who denied Our signs ? and they did not happen to be faithful.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Salamun Alaikum.

Although the debate has moved off-topic here, since the discussion is persisting let me share my perspective.

What does the Qur?an say

2255 God ? no god except Him the Ever Living Foundation of Existence. Drowsiness or sleep does not take him over. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belong to Him. Who is the one who can intercede with Him except with His authorization? He knows whatever (happened) up until them (literally between their hands) and whatever (would happen) after them and they do not capture (literally surround) anything from His knowledge except what He wills. His domain encompasses the heavens and the earth and guarding of both does not fatigue Him and He is the Highest, the Greatest!

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)

That God knows our future is a recurring theme in Qur?an, including the famous instance above. Another very clear declaration in Quran is that, God has predetermined where/how each of us will die

3154 (And) later, from after the distress, He sent down upon you security ? slumber veiled a faction of you while certainly a faction themselves made their souls anxious believing about God beyond the truth ?assumptions of ignorance ? saying, ?Is there anything for us from the command?? Say, ?Indeed the command ? all of it ? is for God?. They hide in their souls what they do not make apparent to you. They say, ?If there happened to be anything for us in the command we would not have been killed here.? Say, ?If you happened to be in your houses, those upon whom murder was booked would have surely come out towards their death-beds.? And so that God could test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts, and God is Knowledgeable of what (you) have in the breast.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)

If God does not know whether the murderer/killer will choose to kill.. He cannot predetermine the death of the victim.

So, one can choose to have a view that God does not know the future ? but it would be practically impossible to pass on such a view as ?Quranic?.

Also, that God determines what we will is clearly expressed here

7630 And you will not will accept that God wills. Indeed God happens to be Knowledgeable, Wise.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)

Let?s do a thought-experiment. Let?s hold a loaded gun to our head and plan for a suicide. If God knows when we are going to die, He must know if I am going to decide to pull the trigger or not. Right?

Is it logically possible for God to know the future

Yes it is. This is especially true for those who understand the relativity of time as postulated in modern Physics. Here is an excerpt about what Einstein believed about time

Surprising as it may be to most non-scientists and even to some scientists, Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. In 1952, in his book Relativity, in discussing Minkowski's Space World interpretation of his theory of relativity, Einstein writes

Since there exists in this four dimensional structure no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.

Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now. He believed there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence. His most descriptive testimony to this faith came when his lifelong friend Besso died. Einstein wrote a letter to Besso's family, saying that although Besso had preceded him in death it was of no consequence, "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."

Similar view about time is endorsed by the leading scientists of our time. The above site has more details.

If the Future is already existing and God is the One who created it, then God logically knows it. All of it.

Well then, If God determines my wills and choices then how come I am responsible for my actions

Actually this is the Question which confuses most of us into believing that we make our choices independent of God. To clarify this one needs to fully understand this ? God is NOT A DEITY who magically controls certain events and activities in the universe. God is the One who has caused the universe to be. He is the One who gives all objects their properties and He is the One who gives all living beings their consciousness. Everything that is happening in this universe, including the movements of every electron and proton inside our brain is happening because of God?s will. If God is the Foundation of Existence then rather it is impossible for anything to happen or exist beyond God?s will. If we understand God like this, there is no question that every choices that we are making are determined by God.

Everything that is happening in this universe has two sides of it - one the apparent physical side of cause and effect - the other the God's will in the background like the other side of the coin. The wind brings the cloud, the cloud brings the rain - yet God is the One who brings all of it. God's will and the apparent causal relationships in the universe are always simultaneously true.

We eat food that is not ours ? it is from God ? but still we eat it and satisfy our hunger. We breathe not our air ? the air is from God ? but still we breathe and live on. We operate our body ? though the body is not ours ? it is from God ? but still we run around with this body by our choice. Then very well we should make choices with our free will and take responsibility of such ? yet God is the authority who is making those choices for us.

But why we should be held responsible for our choices then? That is because we are making those choices just as much as God is making those choices. We are, in this very limited scope of personal choice making, acting with the authorization of God (bi idhnillah). God brought us into being and given us the freewill ? so He is the One supremely responsible for all of our actions anyway. The fact that God is supremely responsible for everything that happens in the universe does not take away anything from our personal responsibility of the choices that we make with God?s authorization.

When God created Adam, He knew very well that Iblis would choose not to prostrate to Adam. This was all part of God's plan. And Yet Iblis is responsible for his own choice. And he knows and acknowledges this

712 He said, ?What prevented you that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?? He said, ?I am better than him. You created me from fire and You created him from clay.?

713 He said, ?Then descend from it ? for it would not be for you that you be arrogant in it. So get out ? indeed you are among the humbled ones.?

714 He said, ?Reprieve me till the day they are animated.?

715 He said, ?Indeed you are among the reprieved ones.?

716 He said, ?So because you have let me astray, surely I will sit for them on Your straight way.?

717 (And) later surely I will be brought to them from up until them (literally between their hands) and from after them and unto their right and unto their left and You will not find most of them appreciative.?

718 He said, ?Get out of it disgraced and expelled ? surely whoever follows you ? surely I will fill Hell with you all together.?

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended, emphasis added.)

The best approach to understand our ownership of our choices is to think like this - we do not make the choices to create our destiny. Our destiny is already predetermined by God. We merely exercise our choices to "earn" that destiny that God has already chosen for us. For some of us who deserve to be guided - God has chosen guidance for us and we will earn such guidance by our own choice. For some others - who deserve to be deviated - God has chosen deviation for them and they will earn such deviation by their own choice.

God is your Master and my Master. Everything in the heavens and on earth are slave to Him willingly or under compulsion. Our Master guides to the straight way whomever He wills.

Best regards,
Arman

peace

Arman Yes I consider Rahman a synonym of Rahym, I do not have enough evidence to do it otherwise. Unless you tell me what change in the tense/meaning does the N at the end of roots exactly do , with evidence. And, I actually made a mistake, the Spanish word is correct, but the English translation would be more "Compassionate" than " beneficent".

Salam brother.

My proposition with regards to the name Ar-Rahman is as follows. Please let me know exactly for which step you are looking for more evidence

1. Ar-Rahman as spelled in Qur'an (without the alif in the middle) is not the same as the known Arabic word Ar-Rahmaan (&#1606 which I did agree that it means "Compassionate" - with the ending alif-nun implying an elative form of the word Raheem. But note - to make an elative form the word needs both the letters alif and noon, while Qur'an has skipped the alif.

2. Since I am convinced every word and letter in Qur'an is purposeful - the implication of this different spelling to me is that God has chosen to change the word slightly and hence the best meaning of this new unique Quranic word can only be derived from usage in Qur'an.

3. The usage of the word in Qur'an implies that the word refers to someone with Supreme Authority rather than highlighting His Mercy or Compassion. The article I referred earlier provides detailed review of the usage of the word in Qur'an

http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/gods_system/rahman.htm

4. However, since the linkage of the word to the root R-H-M is obvious, I understand the word as "The One upon whose Mercy we all are absolutely dependent". Thus the link with Mercy is retained and yet the Supreme Authority is implied. Reading it like this on one hand makes the usage of the word meaningful in Qur'an verses (1330, 1918, 1945 etc.) and on the other hand, makes the two frequently paired words Ar-Rahmanur Raheem complementary to each other - God is absolutely Merciful to us and we are absolutely dependent upon His Mercy - rather than being mere repetitions.

5. The word "Almighty" just happens to be the closest approximation of the meaning of "The One upon whose Mercy we all are absolutely dependent" - if I have to choose a single English word. If I find a better word, I am open to accepting it.

This is how I find the word to be the most meaningful in Qur'an. I just wanted to share this with you in case it is helpful to you, or other readers. But of course if you choose to stick to the traditional view that Ar-Rahman is same as Ar-rahmaan (with the center alif) which means same as Ar-Raheem - then of course you are free to understand however you choose. I do not mean to debate with you, my goal is only to highlight the perspective which is often overlooked.

May Allah increase us in knowledge.

Regards,
Arman

Your perception is flawed, Arman. It is logically impaired. I mean it does not matter if you know of right or wrong because it does not really matter as God controls everything. This is the same flaw as in FreedomStands perception.

You have more control than in a novel and it is more like you are a player in the game world of a video game. You still are exposed to the programming of the game, but you choose what to do with the situation at hand. You are pretty much on your own and must use your own willpower to steer right in the world in order to reconcile with your Rabb and even then you are a person of your own.

Following the directives of Rabb you do for your own sanity in order not to succumb to your own flesh of the world, becoming obsessed with the features of the game world and stuck therein. It would be like you were cursed to play the same game over and over again each day and never do anything else ever. Almost like you were once a player but sucked into the screen and placed for real inside the game.

Be well
Amenuel

Sorry I disagree with your understanding above. I do not will except my Master wills. It is like the beauty of rose. Do we perceive a rose as beautiful because we perceive it as such or because the rose is beautiful by its own right? The answer is - both is true. The perception of beauty and the existence of beauty are simultaneous events. Similarly our will and God's will dictating our will are simultaneous. Like opposite sides of the same coin.

We exercise our freewill to earn our destiny, not to create it. We earn our destiny because of what we deserve. Everything is from our Master - we control nothing.

I do not intend to push this into a debate. There are other dedicated threads for the topic of free will and predetermination. Please feel free to discuss there. However, this is a purely theoretical discourse, a correct conceptualization of the simultaneity of free will and predestination is not a prerequisite for a right guidance. What is important is that we understand we are fully accountable for the choices that we make - even if they are predetermined.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Salam Arman,

Just wanted to mention this very common and misunderstood slave-master concept in the Qur'an. I don't believe that we are slaves of God nor that God wants us to be His slaves. These terms should be understood in its proper historical-cultural perspective when human relations were that of master and slave. Especially in Arabia but also in Rome, Persia and so on. The language and rhetoric of the Qur'an is largely directed at those Arabs of 1400 years ago. I mean it is directly related to how those Arabs in that era and region thought, and entirely suited to their socio-economic-cultural situation and understanding. Sorry my English is far from perfect, I hope you understand what I was trying say..

Salam Recluse.

Leaving the Qur'an aside for a moment, even if I contemplate from an independent perspective - I have not caused my birth into this world. I have not chosen my parents - nor my friends and relatives and society - nor even my race or species! The schools and institutions I attended were all chosen because of situational demand. I know I own nothing. Everything is owned by my Master who is running the show. Even my body I don't own. If my Master wishes my heart would stop beating this very moment, OR my body or part of it can be paralyzed. It is not at all a matter of whether God wants us to be His slave or not - it is what it is. Just like the characters in a novel are slave to the novelist - we are slave to the One who has set up this whole phenomenon of physical existence and created us as pockets of consciousness to experience His creation. There is simply no other way. So, I am not reluctant to recognize myself as slave to my Master. Even my thoughts and emotions are synchronized with the events in the outside world upon which I have no control. If my Master willed I could have been born as a crippled child in a penniless family. If He willed from that position I could have conquered the world. Everything in the heavens and earth - from the mighty stars to the tiny atoms - are all slave to the Master of the universe - willingly or under compulsion. Well! For my Master is the creation and the command ? blessed is God the Master of the universe.

Thus, I humbly submit to my Master by upholding my sense of right and wrong that He has bestowed me. If my Master does not guide me I have absolutely no chance. God is your Master and my Master. Let us be slave to Him. That is the straight way.

Regards,

Arman

Peace Comrox,

Of course you may...

I still believe in one Creator based on the evidence I see in the DNA, the laws of the universe and so many other things (too many to mention here), but I have come to the conclusion that all God wants from us humans is to be good and just and that all human beings are equal. I also believe that probably there must be some form of punishment for evil people who murder, invade, plunder, rape etc. But I no longer believe in organized religions claiming that in order to be saved from "eternal Hell" you must join their exclusive "club".

Salam Recluse.

To supplement what you said above. I also put my faith upon the One God who is the Originator and the Sustainer of everything that is in the heaven and earth, and I am convinced that Our Master wants us to carry with us the love (and mercy) with which He created this universe and strive towards collective growth and wellbeing through peace and fair-dealing.

Those who are faithful to this God-gifted responsibility which is imprinted in our conscience, and thereby act righteously ? they are the ones - the society of garden ? they promote mutual peace and well-being like a self-sustaining interdependent ecosystem (a garden with flowing stream underneath) ? and they will be in this state permanently.

But those who seek the path of division and hatred and pursue selfish, or narrow sectarian goals at the expense of others ? they are the ones the society of fire ? they burn down into lower degraded status in the fire of envy, war and ingratitude that they themselves are fuel to. And they too will be in that state permanently.

My Master has guided me to see the above simple message in Qur?an and so in it I put my faith. To me a religion (with its scriptures, rituals and beliefs) is just an organized effort to provide a framework within which one can remain devoted to the cause of God. It is by no way a membership of a club of the salvaged people. Just like we need universities to pursue knowledge in organized manners, or need political institutions to pursue good governance, religion is supposed to provide us an organized framework to practice our piety and consciousness. No university should claim the monopoly of knowledge, no political party should claim the monopoly over good governance - and by the same token no religion can or should claim monopoly over God's mercy or guidance. Unfortunately virtually all religions of the world have been misunderstood and misused for petty sectarian and political gains. But that blame should be put on the people who have misused it, not on religion itself.

So once again ? let me clarify, I do not put my blind faith upon the God of any book or religion. But rather I put faith in the God who has created me and given me my senses. Through Qur?an I heard the call from our Messenger to put faith in my Master ? so I put faith and hope for mercy of my Master. Perhaps this view is better articulated in this verses

3190 Indeed in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and daylight are surely signs for the men of discretion.

3191 Those who remember God standing or sitting or (reclining) on their sides and who ponder about the creation of the heavens and the earth ?Our Master, you have not created this in deceit. Exalted are You! Then preserve us from the suffering of the fire.?

3192 ?Our Master, indeed whomever You admit into the fire, then surely You have disgraced him and there are no helpers for the wrongdoers.?

3193 ?Our Master, indeed we have heard a summoner summoning, towards faith, saying, ?Put faith in your Master.? So we put faith. Our Master, then forgive our misdeeds from us and suppress our faults for us and let us pass away along with the pious.?

3194 ?Our Master, also (please) give us what You promised us through your messengers and (please) not disgrace us on the day of rising - indeed You do not break the (promised) appointment.?

(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking is recommended.)

If you do not see the call towards your God in Qur?an, but rather see a call to worship a foreign deity, I would assume that is most likely because the true message of the book has not reached you yet. Perhaps like so many others to you as well Qur'an is pretty much "lost in translation". Perhaps it is better for you to not discuss something which - as of now - you do not understand. But under no circumstances would I recommend you to put blind faith upon a certain interpretation of the book. Your intellect and conscience is your direct and personal obligation to your Master. So be slave to Him by upholding your own sense of right and wrong. Seek guidance in Qur'an (or any book / messenger for that matter) only when your conscience and intellect demands you to do so.

God is your Master and my Master. So let us be slave to Him. That is the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Salam wrkmmn.

Hope you got a chance to study the article that I referred. If not, I strongly recommend you do. It will greatly help clarify why the translation "Almighty" seem to be a better fit than "Beneficient", which is practically synonymous to "Merciful".

Meanwhile to avoid any confusion let me clarify, if I have to literally translate the word (&#1615 - it would be "One upon Whose Mercy we have absolute dependence." The English word "Almighty" just seems to be the single word which conveys the meaning closest to it. But I agree this "Almighty" - term has more of the notion of "might" than what the Arabic word (&#1615 demands. I am not at all fanatic about which English word is used for translation. The goal of this discussion is to formulate the best understanding.

May Allah increase you in wisdom.

Regards,
Arman

No, there can never be any consensus in religions. Just try to be human, don't do onto others what you don't want others to do onto you. That one rule alone would turn the world into a paradise. If there is a God, which is highly likely in my opinion, then He must be the God of all human beings on earth. Either he loves us all or none of us.

Hope you read the opening post.

Salam wrkmmn.

First of all, thanks for a well spent effort.

One item, I'd like to highlight to you is that the Arabic word (&#1606 does mean Beneficent, but when it comes to the term (&#1615 in Qur'an (note the difference in spelling) it does seem like a unique name for Allah - the meaning of which is closest to the English term "Almighty" - based on the usage of the term in Qur'an. There is a detailed article about this in the article section of this forum which I found very useful and informative.

I strongly recommend this article for you http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/gods_system/rahman.htm

In my view the terms Ar-Rahman (&#1615 and Ar-Rahym (&#1605 both are linked to the root word R-H-M implying "womb of a mother" and they represent two reciprocal relationships between the mother and the child in the womb. The Ar-Rahym (&#1605 denotes the mercy / kindness like the kindness of mother to its child in the womb. This is a special type of kindness because unlike the kindness between friends / spouses this kindness is not generated out of mutual interaction, this kindness generates unconditionally and unilaterally on part of the mother due to the fact that the child in the womb is completely dependent on her kindness. On the other hand, Ar-Rahman (&#1615 denotes the supreme authority which One commands when others are completely dependent upon the One - like the child in the womb is dependent on its mother. The term "Almighty" is perhaps the closest English term to denote this sense.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and wisdom.

Regards,
Arman

Tis is very good, reel, it puts in real perspective the famous "cut the thieves hands".

If the cut the hands were to be taken not as an idiom, but as a physical deed, your perspective might make sense, because cuttin the hands would indeed be contradictory with what goes before and after.

However if the "cut the hands" is taken as an idiom -one more of the many idioms involving hands- the perspective we get in those ayas goes very much with te sense "cut their means of stealing", take from them the capacity to steal, because obviously God is keeping for himself the handing out of hells and other punishments. Nowadays puunishment is practically the alpurpose imprisonment, but probably God, being wise and all powerful can give to each transgressio the appropriate correcting penalty. What would it be for the thieves? I don't know, may be to have their roperty snatched by others over and over again?

Salaam

Salamun alaikum.

My understanding is 100% aligned with what Huruf says above to be the meaning of the phrase - "cut their means of stealing". The word Yad (translated as "hand&quot has been used numerous times in Qur'an and in majority of cases it implies the "means / power / authority", not physical hand.

The essence of the verse is that as part of establishing governance, we must implement a system of judicial process that acts as an "effective deterrent" to the crime of stealing / robbing; and whoever is convicted of such crime - his ability to commit the same crime again must be curtailed - unless he/she repents and reconciles. The goal is to protect the potential victims - not to torture the convict.

And yes, as brother Wakas points out the subject of the verb - plural YOU - does indicate that this is a command for the followers of the Qur'an to implement.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

peace,

I assume you read the links in my post also.

I have done now and I do agree with you.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

salam arman,

so you admitted that those additional condition is basically derived form your understanding and logical thinking based on your observation how word iman and kufr are used is Quran, right?

do you think you have enough intellectual capacity to do that brother?
do you think your natural and logical understanding can find the loopholes and finally perfected Quranin in one of its clear and concise verse (muhkamat)?
do you think God forgot to include those things?
do you think God has authorized you to do that?

For better or worse my intellect is all that my Master has given me to work with and I?ll live or die based on what I understand making the most sincere us of the sense of right and wrong that my Master has bestowed me. If I consider myself incapable and inadequate and hence blindly follow a scholar or even a book, I would be associating partner with my Master. I seek refuge to my Master for being among the ignorant.

this is the translation of Q 262
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

Good at least you recognized that this is a ?translation?. I do not agree to the above translation which translates amana billahi as ?believe in God? rather than as ?have faith in God?. The difference is vast and the implications are far reaching. This is how I translate this verse

262 Indeed, those who have palced faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

this is your "side note" or comment or whatever about what Q 262
"to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity ? faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life.

Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not need to profess the belief in afterlife ? rather faith in the last may be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.."

you said that you did not believe you were doing that, but you just did.

please brother, for your own sake, please repent, i beg you.

I am not adding anything ? what Qur?an says is clearly out there ? I have provided the supporting verses and proofs which you say you don?t understand. I just shared with you my understanding? and my reasoning? accepting or rejecting is up to you.

even our prophet did not dare to do what you have done because of these verses
Q 69 44 - 47
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

These are generic verses. I understand Iman as ?Faith? (as in I am faithful to my Master), you understand iman as believing. I see clear indications in Qur?an that the term Iman CANNOT mean ?believing? and I have shared such proofs in this very thread. Our debate is not about what the Qur'an says in Arabic - our debate is about the meaning and understanding thereof. We each can blame the other for attributing falsehood about God - but the true interpretation is only with God. Let us leave the matter to God then?

sorry you lost me there. i dont know what you are talking about in this paragraph.

Any specific item I can help with?

i think i have made myself clear about our attitude towards them. if they want to know the truth, then we'll share it with them, if they wont, then just disregard them.

it does not mean that we have to be cruel. full of hatred and injustice to them, just apply what the Quran has to say about our attitude towards them. do you have any difficulties finding those verses? once you find them, they are all clear and nothing unusual that needs to be discussed i think.

do you still need to discuss about how you should behave towards those atheist after all this long and wide discussion?

It is not as simple as disregard them. Qur?an gives different treatment for the mu?min and kafir in terms of legal retribution ? for example in case of murder. We need to understand whom can we label as kafir and whom we cannot to correctly apply these rules. Besides in a globalized world we increasingly have to interact with people of non-religious background as our classmates, teachers, neighbors, employers and coworkers. We need clear understanding of whom we can earmark as kafir and whom we cannot.

I submit to my Master who runs the universe with Absolute Mercy and Absolute Justice ? not to the God portrayed by any Book. The book (Qur?an) is not but a wise reminder. It is only the mercy of my Master that He helped me to see His signs in this book. Indeed I have faced my face to the One who framed the heavens and earth in precision and I am not among the ones associating partners with Him.

Guidance is only with my Master, He guides to the straight way whomever He wills.

Regards,
Arman

Salam alihawa.

With regards to adding additional circumstances or addendum to Quran... no I do not believe I am doing that. I have derived my understanding of iman and kufr based on how these terms have been used in Qur'an. Once the notions of iman and kufr are separated from the notions of believing and disbelieving and properly aligned with acceptance / rejection of our responsibility / relationship with God - The understanding that I am proposing becomes the natural and logical understanding - the jealous God theory rather looks out of place with the message of God's Mercy and Justice in Qur'an.

Moreover, the believing (Jwa-nun-nun) is a totally separate topic which also has been discussed specifically in Qur'an. For example in 245-46 we are informed that seeking help through patience and salaat (reverence) is severe/difficult except for those who believe in meeting their Master. Note the use of the word severe here not "impossible". Also, in 278 Qur'an is talking about the uninformed people within the fraternity of books who do not have but their beliefs. "Believing" per Qur'an is like a two way sword - if placed correctly can be helpful to attain taqwa, otherwise can be misleading and even sinful. My understanding is derived based on these verses of Qur'an only - not from out of blue. Furthermore, I find support to my understanding in 2249 which I also discussed in the opening post.

Also, let's try to look at the below verse and discuss how to interpret this

494 O! Those who have put faith ? when you set forth in God?s path then clarify and do not say to those who offer you peace, ?You are not a faithful? seeking (mere) trifle of the life of the world ? then there are larger booties with God. That?s how you used to be from before. Then God favored upon you ? so clarify. Indeed of how you act - God happens to be All-aware.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Now imagine a moralist atheist who comes to us in peace - does not bring in hostility / enmity because of our difference in belief - and to the best of our knowledge acts righteously and deals fairly with everyone. Are we then with the above verse in mind authorized to tell them ?You are not a faithful?? Look also how this verse is treating this act of imposing "unfaithful" label as an act of seeking worldly gain. Think about it - when we earmark an otherwise peaceful neighbor as unfaithful based on what he believes - do we really try to please God who is our Master and their Master? Or is it our superiority seeking ego that we serve?

May Allah guide us to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman