I am going to say "C" for all. Muhammad was the prophet of Allah so I don't believe stating so is shirk. In fact in stating so you are just confirming that you are a follower of the message which he delivered (the Qur'an). Though the shahada is not mentioned in the Quran I don't see how it is forbidden by the Quran as there is nothing untrue in the statement. I do agree that some (not all) Quranist take things that Muslims do that are not in the Quran and advise against them because they are not mentioned in the Quran even though the Quran does not forbid it. While at the same time they criticize the Sunni and the Shia for banning things that are not mentioned in the Quran. (Again I would like to say some not all.)

I think you would be interested in reading this article http//americanunitarian.org/grantshahada.htm It's a Unitarian Christian advocating for a Unitarian Christian shahada. (The rest of the site is really informative too) As they believe in one God and Jesus as the messenger of God (and not God himself) I feel they are also submitters to God, not committing shirk and a part of our brethren.

I have also heard the argument brought forth about a Muslim being one who submits to the one God, regardless of whether they are a Jew, Christian or any other name they go by and a momin (believer) is one who believes in the message of the Quran brought by prophet Muhammad. The justification for this is linguistics based on the use of both words in the Quran. I have not done enough independent investigation to comment on this (maybe someone else here has), but there is a logic to this theory and a difference in shahada could distinguish this. (Though I am not saying it is necessarily required to. Just throwing around ideas.) For more on the Muslim/momin theory I suggest you read 'Notes on Islam' by Sir Ahmed Hussain. There is a free kindle download at Amazon http//www.amazon.com/Notes-on-Islam-ebook/dp/B0082X9Z76

Allah knows best.

SarahY bravo That was a very well written, researched and informative response. I find it interesting when I hear people say Quran guided Muslims are following their "whims and desires". Maybe some do, but for the most part from my experience I've found them to be very sincere in their quest to determine God's will.

Salaam,

There are many small differences among the shia's and sunii's (including the 4 schools of fiqh) concerning the "zakat". All agree to pay once a year 2.5% over all your property. The differences are mostly on when exactly, how to calculate it, which things you can neglect, etc.

The Quranists consider Zakah as the purification of the Soul, and the Sadaqa as the obligatory tax (which traditionalists consider as recommanded)

In regards to Shia/Sunni differences, something interesting I found in he article I posted above was that the Jafari School (not sure about other Shia schools) does not recognize zakat to be paid on paper currency. I did some more research on this and found a Shia website that stated the same thing.

http//www.revivingalislam.com/2011/10/zakat-in-shia-islam.html

As you will see many times various companions of the A?immah ( ) wanted to pay al-Zakh on other than these nine things, but our A?immah ) ( vehemently said that the Messenger of Allh )
( has ?forgiven what is apart from that? ( ). This means that al-Zakh is only obligatory on these nine things and nothing else. We cannot do Qiys (analogous reasoning) and make al-Zakh obligatory upon paper currency or upon anything else.

In this document I will bring only the adth that are considered authentic by our scholars...

From Jaml said, I heard Ab Abd Allh ) ( say about the amount for al-zakh. So he ) ( said ?It is established on nine things, the Messenger of Allh ) ( has forgiven what is apart from that. Al-Tayyr1 said ?We have a grain, it is called rice So Ab Abd Allh ) ( said to him, ?We have many grains also. So he (al-Tayyr) said to him ) ( ?And (is there zakat) upon it? He ) ( said ?Did I not tell you, the Messenger of Allh ) ( has forgiven what is apart from that? From it is ?Gold and Silver. Three from the animals, ?Camels, Sheep and Cows, and from the vegetation of the earth are ?Wheat, Barley, Raisins and Dates

From Abd Allh bin Sinn said, Ab Abd Allh said ?When the verse of al-Zakh was revealed ?Take from their wealth a charity, so you would purify and cleanse them with it? (9103). It was revealed in the Month of Raman, and the Messenger of Allh ( ) commanded a caller to call to the people that Allh has made zakat far (obligatory) upon, just like he has made salat obligatory upon them, so Allh ) ( has obligatory upon them from the Gold and Silver, and has made obligatory charity from the camels, cows, sheep, and from wheat, barley, dates and raisins. And he called for them in that in the Month of Ramam and has forgiven them what is apart from that?

Just interesting that there is such a difference in opinion.

Some possible insight found at http//www.tolueislam.org/Bazm/Mansoor/MA_zakah_i.htm

To which the author, Dr. Mansoor Alam, places the origins with the Abbasids.

'In regard to the prevailing system in many so-called Muslim countries, strangely enough, zakah is based on the way it was set up by the Imams under the direction of the Abbasid kings. Since the Quran does not recognize the existence of kings and priests, they had no authority to develop a Shari?ah for the Muslim masses. Yet, today, we do have a Shari?ah in our hands, which we accept unquestioningly. How was this done? In the first place, the Shari?ah of the Abbasid kings and priests was sanctified by attributing it to the Prophet (pbuh). Secondly, any critics of the time were silenced by the proverbial carrot and stick. This method was just as effective then, as it is now. Those who refused to bow to any form of pressure would be labeled as infidels and put to death; their writings would be destroyed. In this way, the kings and the priests established their version of the Shari?ah as the truth, to the extent that today, many religious Muslims find the following statements very strange only the Quran is sufficient for us; we can implement true Islam based solely on the Quran; the prophet (pbuh) left only the written Quran to the Ummah; the Prophet told Muslims to follow only the Quran; the Prophet gradually abolished slavery; the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) were true Mumins who did not deviate from the Quran and the true faith. Well-meaning religious Muslims will quickly quote Shari?ah to refute the above statements, which are perfectly true and found in the Quran. How ironic that the Quran has been made to appear strange and the man-made Shari?ah made to look like the truth.'

Thank you for your lengthly reply. However, it misses the point entirely because it was the Romans who killed and crucified Jesus/Isa and not the Jews I, as a practising Orthodox Christian, can accept this passage as it is.

You did not comment on the fact that according to Christianity and any unbiased ("You have probably to sacrify something from your old beliefs. &quot reading of history that the Jews did not kill or crucify Jesus/Isa, but the Romans did. Therefore these verses do not go against the historical Christian understanding of the crucifixion!!

Peace!! Can you see what I am saying?

Richard

That is like a Zen koan.

Mattew 65-18 Prayer

5 ?And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues (Mosques) and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on vain repetitions like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 ?This, then, is how you should pray

??Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.?

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting

16 ?When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Beautiful.

I think many people just do not want to make salat, and invent reasons to satisfy themselves.

how many rakats, how many salats, what color heifer, how old.

Peace

bravo

This all changed when I was listening to my favourite sheikh, Khalid Yasin, and he was talking about how to beat your wife... I, being the hardcore feminist that I am, was of course shocked by this, so I listened to him and I was extremely angry.

How many people have had this similar experience? Your feeling good, iman through the roof, on the "straight path", listening to your favorite Sheikh one lecture after another...and then...BOOM..."What did he just say?!?!?!" you say out loud as your iman shatters.

What is a "narcotic painkiller"? I've never heard of this term before.

For example Vicodin is probably one of the best known Narcotic Painkillers which includes Hydrocodone which is derived from opiates. Or Fioricet which has butalbital in it which is a barbiturate. Essentially they contain medical grade narcotic drugs to treat severe pain and are only available by prescription.

And why wouldn't you be satisfied with the Authorized translation of Dr. Rashad Khalifa PhD, the messenger of the covenant?

???

Not everyone accepts Khalifa's translation as "authorized" or him as a "messenger". Some do and some have opinions in between. To each his own.

why do u need to know that ?

Curiosity, maybe some one here is familiar with author.

This shows that 'believing in God' and/or 'monotheist' is not enough...
OBL believes in God, Kayafas believes in God, Hitler believes in God, Idi Amin believes in God..
But that doesn't makes them good either..
However...

All of those gentlemen + Satan has certain common characteristics..

• Arrogance
• Proud
• Hatred
• Dishonest / Lies
• Self centered / Lack of empathy

Salam / Peace

Good point.

I had an interesting theory about Satan dating back to my Pre-Muslim days. Has anyone here ever seen Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? I was always intrigued by the Slugworth character. He is an evil competitor to Wonka trying tempt the children to sell out and betray Wonka's trust. In the end you find out that he is working for Wonka and his job is to test them to find out who's heart is pure.

Might not be the truth with Satan, but always intrigued me.

There is some info (however not nearly as extensive) in Reza Aslan's "Cosmic War" (or "Beyond Fundamentalism" in paperback. A good read...is available on Kindle for fellow kindle users (I love my kindle by the way)

This has been bothering me for a long, long time. I ignored it for a while, deferring my own opinion to the more esteemed opinions of the many translators.

1778

Arberry Perform the prayer at the sinking of the sun to the darkening of the night and the recital of dawn;

Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn.

Yusuf Ali Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading

Shakir Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation;

Asad Be constant in prayer from the time when the sun has passed its zenith till the darkness of night, and recitation at dawn

What I cannot understand is why "li" here in "li-duluuk il-shams" is translated as "at" or "from".

"li" means "to"

To me it always reads as

"perform the prayer to the setting of the sun, to the darkness of the night"

Surely it would say "min" instead if it really meant "from the setting of the sun"? Like "min duluuk il-shamsi ilaa ghasaq..." ?

The problem here is that the Arabic of the time did not have commas. So whereas in English I'd be telling you that I went to the supermarket and bought eggs, milk, and bread; in Arabic I'd tell you that I went to the supermarket and bought eggs and milk and bread and juice and apples and......no commas, you can use AND (wa) as much as you want.

Basically what I'm asking is whether it should be read with commas between 3 different time periods or whether it is 1 time period being described (setting sun to darkness) followed by the fajr part. My belief is that there is no reason to assume it is talking about 1, and that in all likelihood it is indeed talking about 3 different timings the setting of the sun, the darkness of the night, and the reading of Quran at dawn. I believe that one of them (li or ila) could have a sense of time proximity more than the other, but that requires more study.

Your thoughts?

The proper translation of this verse has always been a wonder to me. Unfortunately I do not speak enough arabic, I can only pick out bits and pieces. Also the translation would need to be from a classical perspective and not modern arabic as there may have been some changes in the understanding of particular words.

I have personal messaged Layth a while ago about this thread, but no answer so far.

Anything on this? hmm

The end will come whenever Allah decides. IMO the end of day's prophecies of the Dajjal and Isa (a.s.) are borrowed from Christian tradition and in both case are mythology. Of course over history people had questions about the end and stories were written (with good intentions in some cases) to satisfy peoples interest. We may be living in the end of days, but we may not. If it was important to know then Allah would have informed us.

I no there is certain Hadith that hint to an appointed time for some, this also found in Christian Apocrypha. From a Quran alone stand point this is a little harder to justify but not impossible.

My personal belief which I could be absolutely wrong about is that in the end everything has to balance. Our good deeds and bad, our hardships and blessings, will all be weighed out (inclusive of actions vs. intentions and repentance). If we fall short we will face the fire of hell for an appointed time, much like a prison sentence. However some could face eternal damnation just like some could face life in prison.

On an off topic note, I was listening to a Christian radio station and the host quoted a verse from Revelations about "all liars" being thrown in the fires of hell. He followed this by saying, "See all of you who believe in global warming which is a fraud...the fires of hell are real. So repent from your liberal, left wind ideology and accept Jesus Christ as your savior."

there's a verse that says You see them nowing prostrating
How do you see someone bowing or protrating if they're not doing it physically
As for Salat there's verses that say Aqui salat .....
these verses never spoke of more than three times a day, i believe there is a three times a day, but the exact timings is difficult to get, but if u use wisdom, people used to pray according to the quran, than hadithists came in and started making the religion difficult
but can they taje out the originale one? ofcourse not, because people were real muslims, do they did the trick of adding, how do we find the original one? I am a sunni by birth, so i know how the sunnis pray
here is what we must do to find them from the tradition
1 the praying is times, they cannot change it's timin
2 the prayer has to be done according to the quran, so if they add it has to be different , to claim it on sunnah
3 the prayer according to the quran has to be moderated voice, not too loud and not silently
So in a sunni mosque ; they pray ; Fadjr 2 rakaa with moderated voice ---- correct
dhohr 4 rakaa silently ------- False therefore void
ASR 4 Rakaa siletly ------- False therefore void
Maghrib 3rakaa 2 with moderated voice 1 silently, therefore 2 rakaa correct
Isha 4 rakaa 2 with voice 2 silent therefore 2 rakaa correct

If we go by tradition logic , there's fadjr 2 rakaa , maghrin 2 rakaa and isha 2 rakaa
the only prayer that isn't really correpted is djoumouaa, 2 rakaa with voice
timing of djoumouaa is datime because allah said leave your work when done go back to work

That's what came into my mind, don't know if I'm correct or not

Not sure if this is correct, but it makes sense and is pretty much what I follow anyways. To me though it's not so much finding how to pray, but the sincerity of the prayer. The ambiguity in the Quran may be so we don't get caught up in "how to pray". Stand, bow, prostrate and glorify God, if done sincerely aren't you submitting?

I second Layth's advice, which is pretty much what I do. I tend to favor Ahmed Ali's Al-Quran.