Mumin is someone that has faith and it is just a descriptive term for believers. Muslim is pretty much the same thing when used in the Quran. I don't really see the point in over analysing these terms tbh as I don't think the author meant it to be something so complex that it requires heavy debate over.

Peace Bubbles,

YET AGAIN you have refused to answer my question asking you the exact odds of all the precise values that I mentioned being what they are. That CLEARLY shows your SKIMPY, HASTY, and CARELESS attitude and NOT DOING YOUR HOMEWORK. No wonder you are having difficulty getting to the truth.

What you wrote above does not even come close to the odds I am referring to. If the odds of someone winning the lottery are one in a million or even one in a billion, of course it is possible by random chance. But what if I tell you that a person played 100 consecutive lotteries, each with a one in a million chance of winning, and that person won all of them. Can that happen by random chance? If you go ask this question to a statistician, he/she will calculate the exact odds of that happening, and then after p value testing will tell you that according to the laws of probability, such an event is impossible to happen by random chance alone. The odds of all the precise values being what they are in order for the universe to exist, are much lower than the example I gave above of winning 100 consecutive lotteries, each with a one in a million chance. So it is impossible for that to happen by random chance alone.

It is a very simple task that you are refusing to perform. Why don't you find out the exact odds of all the precise values being what they are in order for the universe to exist, and then test your null hypothesis of "the universe came into existence by random chance", and do the p value testing. The matter will instantly become clear to you once you do all this. Ask a statistician to help you out.

What makes you think that the unverse didn't fail to come into existence 1000 billion billion times before it actually did?
You do realise also that there being a chance by definition means that it isn't impossible?

None of those universes can exist if the fundamental values are not precisely what they are. The above statement of yours shows your utter ignorance on this matter.

hmmm source?

Shows more of your complete ignorance on this matter. It has been shown in quantum physics that reality cannot exist without an external observer. For the universe to be created and come into existence and remain in existence requires an external observer, outside the confines of the universe.

I think you're talking nonsense. Source?

Keep all possibilities in mind and then prove or disprove them one by one, and eventually you will reach the truth by process of elimination.

You cannot disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I have already shown you repeatedly how to know and verify with sincerity but you keep refusing to do the homework required, thereby deceiving yourself in the process. You yourself made the choice out of free will which will result in your state in the life hereafter and then you are blaming God for it?

I don't believe free will exists.

3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

Are you even familiar with the concept of Panentheism?

Yes. Like all theisms there is no evidence, and therefore I don't believe it.

Peace

I fear you are being very very dishonest here... Why not just tell us that you cannot do it?? What conditions are you looking for exactly for this challenge??

CONSIDER THIS!!

I am a great car manufacturer and I made one of the best cars on earth, a car which I know no one will be able to duplicate... And best, I made many many duplicates myself and gifted it to each and everyone... And then I tell them, BRING A CAR LIKE THIS.... If you got some brain, you will definitely know what I mean by this statement...

Since I gave you the car, you should examine it yourself... I will not come and tell you which paint I used, or which type of metal,engine,leather etc... It is up to you do disect the car, do your analysis and then BRING A CAR LIKE THIS... It does not matter where the car will run etc... Just bring a car like this...

When I tell you to BRING A CAR LIKE THIS... will you BRING A LORRY or A TRACTOR??

Is it clear??

If you gave that car to another manufacturer, they could take it apart and figure out exactly how you made it and make a duplicate, I would have thought? Why wouldn't they be able to make a duplicate? It really doesn't matter how great the car is.

Btw thats a horrible anology, it's like telling someone to make a copy of the Quran, which isn't too hard if you have a copier.

The author of the Quran challenges us to produce a surah "like it", but what if someone just put together a short poem, would that meet the challenge? How would you judge whether it is actually "like" the Quran? Like I said before it would just come down to sujective opinion, so it was a rather crap argument for the author of the Quran to use.

Bubbles,

You no longer believe in God, do you believe in devil, iblees, satan, whatever we know him as, If your answer is yes then Please start believing in God, or to be more accurate in Al-La ah The La ah, and also because devil believes in God or Al-Laah.

I don't believe in the devil either.

If your answer is no, meanings you also don't believe in Devil, then lets do an experiment And assume that there is nothing no planets, stars, earth, etc nothing, but who and what is doing this assumption, you your conciseness is doing this assumption so nothing exists but your conciseness, you might argue and say that for my conciseness to exist i have to exist too physically, bodily etc. But what do you think what is the proof of existence, reception and process of data from senses, its a mirage, once before time existed it was not the case HE who is ALONE or Al-ONE thought of time, so did time happen, we whom find our self living are very fortunate to experience LIFE, with all its superiority by being in Hueman from, we will hopefully Evolve, and all who are having life of Para-dies here will have life of paradise there. Don't know how to go further about it, have had quite a bit of faith crisis in life too, from dipping the fly to here was quite a journey. But could not stop believing in a Supreme Will, The Programmer, whom everything is also part of.

I found what you wrote a little difficult to understand, but I think what you were getting at is that our own existence isn't provable. Like you said it might all just be a mirage, then what reason is there to believe in anything besides our own consciousness, like in god? By the way many philosophers bring the existence of our consciousness into question, it isn't inconceivable that thoughts could could exist without a mind to think it.

It is not guilt when we feel bad about others less fortunate than us. It is more like sympathy.

I would say something good should be done for the sake of it. We should do the right thing because it is right, not because it benefits us. Although it does end up benefiting is more often than not.
When we do things for our own good (like most people do), we end up sacrificing our principles when the going gets tough. People are only moral as long as it is easy. That's not how it should be.

If someone helps the poor for the sake of helping the poor, he is not serving himself but serving something higher than himself. I'd say he is a believer.

Reasons for when someone helps another person consciously are always going to be selfish in someway. When someone helps the poor, it may be that they feel bad for them, and as a result they have a sort of lust to help them. If they do not satisfy this lust, they won't be able to relieve themselves of the guilt and of feeling bad for the less fortunate person. They are therefore not doing the good deed for the sake of it.

For example, I often help others, not for the sake of it, but because seeing a smile on their face as a result of what I've done for them makes me feel happy. The goal for me is that feeling of satisfaction and happiness.

Well I wouldn't say Person A is an asshole. Just lacks incentive to do good. Person B however is being illogical because feeding poor people does not fit into the materialistic view of "survival of of the fittest".

Person B through getting praise gets satisfaction and happiness from feeding the poor, so it is perfectly logical that he feed them.

Person A is just an asshole, so he's not important.

Person B is giving food to the hungry. That's a good thing and person B deserves praise. But what if we find out Person B was only doing this so he could get that praise and feel good about himself? Then we wouldn't be so willing to heap praise on him. Your intentions have to be good as well.
Good intentions without actions or wrong actions is bad. And good actions based on wrong intentions is bad, as well.

What do you think would be a good intention?
The way I see it, every good action that someone does has a personal incentive behind it, and often it's to make themselves feel good about themselves, or to relieve some of the guilt that they feel from seeing someone less fortunate.

Peace Lobster,

If you don't want to believe in the code 19, then that is your own personal choice; nobody is forcing anything upon you at all. Some study and follow it because of it's factors representing the divine authenticity of the Quran, while others use it to confirm the pureness of the message, or to confirm the scriptures. Some use it as a way of verifying GOD's existence. And some disregard it altogether. The choice is yours. GOD is enough as a witness over the messengers and their proofs.

Peace,

Ahmad

Two verses had to be removed to make code 19 work, right? It's hardly scientific if data has to be removed for there to be a pattern.

8119 It is the saying of an honorable messenger.
8120 With power and influence from the One of the throne.
8121 Obeyed, and trustworthy.
8122 And your friend is not crazy.
8123 And he saw him by the clear horizon.
8124 And he has no knowledge of the future.
8125 And it is not the saying of an outcast devil.
8126 So where will you go?

??? Whats your point?

Feel for you first you were staunched hadithist and now an enemy of God and the prophet.... what a sad transformation or may be none brickwall

Well I did believe in the Quran alone for a while as well , and I'm not an enemy of Muhammed really. I think he was a rather confused individual that probably had some good intentions, hes no worse than Baha'ullah, Joseph Smith, or any of the other cult leaders that pop up from time to time. As for god, it really depends on the kind of god we're talking about. Any god that allows suffering, despite having the power to stop it, and plans to give eternal punishment to beings that he himself created won't get my respect.

Peace

I was about to post the same Wallace

Bubbles, I give you and your conclusions the benefit of doubt, even though your claims are not backed up by any hard proof that such works of Galen and so on has been found translated in arabic at the time / or prior to the time of the messenger... These are again hypothesis that you like and feel secured with, so keep it for you and TAKE THE NEXT STEP...

You asked me to show you if the information about embryology was known before Muhammed and I did, 500 years prior to him in fact. Considering Muhammed was a merchant who traveled a great deal, he would have known something of the knowledge that was prevalent and believed in at the time. Muhammed even made the same errors as Galen in mentioning that bones were created and then covered with flesh. In short there really aren't any scientific miracles in the Quran, and you've done nothing to argue against this.

You already claimed God's word to be NOT from God... SO TAKE THE NEXT STEP AHEAD PLEASE.... TAKE THE COMPLETE CHALLENGE NOW!

And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to Our servant, then come with a Surah/Chapter like it; and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

Or they may say, "He forged it," Say, "BRING YOU THEN TEN SURAS forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever you can, other than Allah!- If you speak the truth!

1788 Say "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

It should be easy for you and your pals at answering-islam... Share the word

Regards

I commented on this earlier in this thread, and this is what I wrote
This is one of the reasons I believe the Quran is the work of a rather simple minded individual. I wouldn't expect God to use such flawed arguments in support of the book he has supposedly authored. What does it mean exactly when the Quran says "a surah like it"? The author of the Quran fails to provide the conditions of the challenge, and a means to judge whether the challenge has been met. In the end all it comes down to is subjective opinion on whether the challenger had been able to produce "a surah like it".

Hi Bubbles

Firstly, sorry for referring to you as a guy... I missed the sign in haste... P

So, you are IMPLYING that scientific miracles in the Quran were already known from before... check the following verses

2314 and then We create out of the drop of sperm a germ-cell, and then We create out of the germ-cell an embryonic lump, and then We create within the embryonic lump bones, and then We clothe the bones with flesh - and then We bring this into being as a new creation hallowed, therefore, is God, the best of artisans!

This is a rather strange translation, there was no word for germ cell in the 7th century and that is not what "3alaqa" translates to. Also, this verse is kind of inaccurate when it mentions bones being clothed with flesh considering that bones and muscles develop simultaneously from the same tissue.

This verse, among others give a CLEAR description of the gestation stages of the embryo... This could not have been observed in detail until the invention of the endoscopes and some other scopes which have been invented only recently... So do you have an explanation how these has been mentioned in detail in the Quran revealed 1400 years ago...

Since you CLAIMED that these scientific facts were KNOWN from before the Quran... therefore you SHOULD back your CLAIM with some convincing proof... Show us some very very old scriptures/parchments or the like that described these gestation stages... It will be more convincing if you can get us some HIEROGLYPHS which explain all these in details....
Regards

These are the words of a Physician called Galen living in the 2nd century, about 500 years prior to Muhammed

"But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed (Arabic ?a new creation?) ...

... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow"
The bits in brackets were put in by the people on Answering-Islam, but the rest is from a translation of Galen's book by Philip De Lacy.
http//www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html

If you want you can have a look at a translation of his book 'On Semen' which also has the original Greek. It's a great deal more detailed than anything in the Quran in my opinion.
http//books.google.com/books?id=CyK2oKiLDTAC&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq=galen+on+semen+page+92&source=bl&ots=CH8F1sjS0P&sig=n4svJ5qQWUtaj7iCrD9HPyPBIQo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA103,M1

May be you are too dumb hmm
May be your questions are not worth a response hmm
May be you are a stubborn person who is thinks too much of herself hmmHappy exit and good ridden bravo

Maybe you're a brainwashed dummy far too frightened of hell to be capable of questioning the egotistical, tyrannical, sadistic dictator that is god hmm. Would you even give a thought to all those burning in hell with me if your god turns out to be real?

Seriously, I cannot understand why you felt the need to use personal attacks.

Peace Bubbles
I believe an intelligent human being, like yourself, would not believe that this world were created by itself. Therefore, I will not assume that you do think that way.

I do not believe that the universe requires a creator.

Now, I can note that you are not happy that God created us as Free well creatures. You are not Happy that God knew that most of humans will fail the Test, but still created them. And because of that you concluded that God Created and Hardwired the Humans to be either Believers or Disbelievers.

I don't think you quite understand me. I believe that free will is an illusion and that our existence and all of our decisions were determined right from the beginning of the universe. Every decision that we make is only the result of biological or environmental factors, if our biology or environment were somewhat different we would be completely different people. What I don't understand is why god who is supposedly all-knowing allowed for kafirs to even exist. If the end destination of the kafir is to go to hell, then nonexistence is preferable.

Will...Why do you think that some True Believers become True disbelievers? If God Hardwired them, when born, to be Believers, Why they became disbelievers? Why Abraham, whom his Father was a disbeliever, became one of the Strongest Believer? Why Noha Son is a Disbliever, when His Father was not?

People's beliefs often change with time, but all of these changes were predetermined by god if he exists. He already knew that Abraham would die a believer, and that Noah's son would die a disbeliever.

Brother Bubble, make your peace with God and your War with Evil.

(&#65279
Say "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah for Allah forgives all sins for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (39-53)

And if you decide to make your peace with God, Make sure to Submit to Him by following His True Guidance and not making peace with Him and submitting to others Guidance; otherwise, He will never Give you the Peace you asked for.

Bubbles, Listen to Me Make Your Peace With Him.

If I believed in god and actually liked him then I would make my peace with him.

Peace Bubbles
Do you mind to share with us some of your "Faith Crisis"? I think Faith Crisis is a Good Sign, if the person who is experiencing the crisis had a wrong religion; It shows that His Soul did not accept the wrong religion.

Please forgive me if I was rough with you in the Hadith thread, and let us start a new friendly discussion about your doubt in God and Quran.

Well I suppose I just don't see any real evidence that the Quran is the word of a god, or that gods actually do exist. I was a very strong believer, but over time I've found the justifications that I once believed in and used to support the Quran have faded away until I simply couldn't believe. My loss of belief had very little to do with the hadiths, but was primarily the Quran and the whole concept of a god, besides I was a believer in the Quran Alone at one point as well and that didn't last long.

I've also begun to hate the character of the Abrahamic god and am unable to understand why he would create this world that contains so much suffering for both humans and other animals just to make us all play a little game. The worst part is the punishment of hell that awaits those that can't believe in him or follow his at times irrational rules. He didn't even need to create people that would become kafir, yet he did it anyway knowing full well that they would end up burning in hell.

Peace Bubbles,

Good, at least you are taking the right steps. )

Dice has only 6 possibilities. Have you calculated the odds of all those things I mentioned happening with a precise value at the same time? Have you even calculated the odds of just ONE of those values being decided by chance alone? Have you formed your null hypothesis about those precise values and then applied the p value testing?

Have you? Why is chance not sufficient? When people play the lottery the chances that they will win are could be 1 in a million, but in the end someone wins. Nothing divine is involved in them winning because the chances are the same for each person who played the lottery. I'm a bit of a believer in determinism and I see everything that happens as a result of cause and effect including my own existence and even the decisions that I make, if the physical constants were somewhat different then I simply wouldn't exist and that would be that. Our existence is no more amazing than our non-existence.

What about the possibility of Multiple universes? If there are many universes with different physical constants then it is plausible that at least one of those universes would have the physical constants necessary for our existence.

Your answer shows your complete ignorance about those odds, so I would request you to do your research and actually find those odds, and then apply the p value test to find if it is likely to happen by chance over the known time period. Unless you do all that you are skimping the issue and not being sincere in your approach.

The observer has to be outside/external to the reality being observed. For the whole universe to exist, the observer has to be outside the confines of the universe. Please take a course in quantum physics before yet again making hasty remarks.

I think you should take the course. Nothing needs to be outside our universe observing it for it to exist. On the Quantum level however observation has an effect, but if we stopped observing the particles they wouldn't just cease to exist.

What if he doesn't? Why are you forgetting that possibility? If that possibility is true then the approach of not following His words will be very risky. So not all approaches are safe.

I'm not forgetting the possibility of Allah, and I'm not forgetting the possibility of the Flying Spaghetti Monster either who would punish me for worshiping anyone other than him.

I forgot to mention before that you cannot force yourself to believe something, you are either convinced by it or you aren't and I am not convinced of god or the Quran.

Your answers clearly indicate that you are not really being sincere in your quest for the truth and not really doing your home work. Maybe that is why you think that your questions are not being answered by God ! You are asking God to guide you but then you are not making the effort required to know and verify with full sincerity. Hope you are not offended by this but take it as sincere constructive criticism.

How exactly do I "know and verify with full sincerity"? You mention that I haven't done my homework, and although I totally disagree with you, I think it is just abhorrent and evil for god to burn someone in hell for not researching everything related to Islam. A problem that is apparent in both Christianity and Islam is that belief seems to be a major determinant in who goes to heaven and hell. Simply feeling that god's existence is unknowable and lacking belief in god supposedly warrants eternal damnation.

Peace Bubbles,

There is nothing vague. When people mistranslate the clear words of God, it does not mean that God's words are vague, but it means that the people who intentionally mistranslate are crooks/liars/deceivers who twist God's words to misguide others. One word can have many meanings in ANY human language. The context determines the true meaning. That does not mean that the word used is vague.

I find it disgusting that you're calling these other translators who you don't even know liars and crooks. Please provide evidence for your claims that they were all crooks who intentionally mistranslated.

For example, If I say that the paper is light, it means the paper is not heavy, and if I say that light is bright, it does not mean that I am talking about something not heavy as being bright. So just because I used the multiple meaning word "light" does not mean I am being vague, and the context clarifies the exact meaning.

Show me another instance where the word "tara-ib" is used to mean testicles in Classical Arabic literature or give an example of a famous Arabic linguist that has ever used that word to mean testicles.

Penis is not testicles. Your statement above yet again shows hasty and skimpy approach without bothering to study and do research and find out the exact truth.

The Free-mind's translation says the semen comes out from between the backbone and the testicles, and not from the testicles alone.

Please study human anatomy and physiology of the reproductive system, and see for yourself how semen comes out from exactly between the testicles and the sacral spine. Look for yourself where vas deferens, accessory glands, seminal vesicles, and the prostrate gland are situated and how they are all between the testicles and the sacral spine.

I'm well aware of all this. The translation you provided said that semen "comes out from", which I took to mean the penis. The issue here is that the Quran lacks clarity and it isn't as easy to understand as the author of the Quran claims.

Salaam

Its late and I was about to skip replying to you then realised you would complain first God does not reply to you and then God's servents are doing the same so lets see if you are getting any response from god or not hmm

Nope I'm not getting a response because the answers that I want haven't been given.

Well if you pay attention you would noitce that explantion has been given to you in detail via a servent of god, now its up to you to carryon arguing or try and understand what TS11 has been explaining to you. sun

I would rather god did the explaining for himself because right now even if he does exist I still hate him.

Its only difference of opinion and choices, as there is no compulsion so why worry

kk

Now you sound bit positive keep it up bravoThis has been discussed a lot on current affairs may be conversion of Jako will highlight this topic again So keep abreast with current affairs and you may learn bit more. Or just Google ,

So you don't have a source for your claim then?
Wako Jako is someone that converted to Islam, but it is not like people don't leave Islam as well.

Peace everyone,

This is what results from skimpy, hasty study of the scripture. People don't even bother to check the accuracy of the translations and then pass their verdicts based on mistranslations.

867 It comes out from between the spine and the testicles.

??? Does it mean the penis? If so, why doesn't the author just say that to save us the confusion?
I've read plenty of translations and none of the ones I've seen were referring to where the semen comes out of, but rather where it comes from or is produced. Your translation is no more valid than the others. I suppose the varying translations goes to show how vague the Quran really is.

Peace everyone,

That is the proper logical approach. It is also the way of Abraham

Yes there is. Please study astronomy, particle physics, quantum mechanics, human anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry, and statistics and laws of probability. By study, I mean take a university course, not just skimp articles off imam google

How would this help in showing me that there is one god? I'm applying for Natural sciences at university so we'll see if learning all of that makes a difference.

How did the singularity come into existence? What was the reason it began to expand rapidly? Who determined the precise force of the big bang, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between protons and neutrons in an atom, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between electrons and the nucleus, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise force between the quarks, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise vibration of the energy strings which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of the universe? Who determined the precise value of Planck's constant, which even if off by a miniscule amount would not have resulted in creation of universe? What are the odds of all these precise values being what they are by random chance alone?

I think the problem here is that you're asking "who" rather than "what" and "how". If the beginning conditions were slightly different then the universe as we know it wouldn't exist, but that isn't what happened so here we are. Mentioning odds is just silly. If we have a dice with 6 sides, the chances of it landing on the number 2 for example is 1/6. If that is what happens, you're not going to assume that something divine caused it to land on the number 2, you would realise that the chances of it landing on any of those numbers is equal. It's similar with the universe that we inhabit, the big bang just happened the way it did and now we're here as a result.

WHO IS THE OBSERVER THAT CAUSES THE EXISTENCE OF UNIVERSE TO BE POSSIBLE? Without this external observer, the whole universe would collapse in a nano-second! (The Princeton interpretation of the Copenhagen phenomenon)

http//books.google.com/books?id=WEM4hqxJ-xYC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=princeton+interpretation+observer&source=bl&ots=1Vd6LaD_f8&sig=aibmsYnM3XZ2qPSH77Ry7UwI8mU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

From my understanding of that article, we humans are the observers. There is no mention in that article of there being a divine observer.

Following the wrong religion is disbelieving. Following anything other than the absolute truth is disbelieving.

What if the assumption that the disbeliever is punished is true? What if hell really exists? No problem for the other scenarios but what if God exists and disbelievers will be punished in hell for choosing disbelief out of their own free-will? Would that not be a big risk one takes when one does not believe in existence of God and existence of hell? What would be the safer approach?

Believing in God and the Last Day, and doing good deeds would be the safest approach

All approaches are as safe as one another. For all we know god might like bad deeds and disbelief.