I'm sorry for the late relpy...

About your claim that it's not necessary that only Muslims can gain salvation, I didn't say anything because I had no knowledge. But I came across a verse recently so I thought I'd share it on the forum so please let me know what you think

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
(The Holy Quran, Al-e-Imran 385)

Secondly, Bro Wakas, only God knows whats in the hearts of each one of us but honestly, there are six billion people living in the world and there millions of sects, beliefs and ideology. Of course, there are loads of people who deceive and have false agendas but I strongly believe, and I know for sure that each group of people will definitely have followers who have sincerely searched and have come to the conclusion that they have the truth. There's always a chance that they're missing out somewhere, but I'm sure that in every group of people there always those who do try their best.

I know it makes no sense for me to say this because obviously, as far as any of you reading is considered, I could be lying but I personally do believe that as much as I know, I've cleared my mind of prejudices and biases and I really am searching for the truth with all my heart, and I've never rejected anything out of blindness and arrogance. I really don't know for sure what the truth is, I can only hope to be guided. What I'm trying to say is that I'm sure there are so many others just like me but with different beliefs, backgrounds, and in-built mindsets!

Yes, that is one method..... to wait for someone else to do the work.

Believe me, I'm not kidding, I've tried to do the work myself for years now (as a naive, brainwashed kid). I just found myself going in circles! of course, I'm still on the path to increasing my knowledge and wisdom but I would really like to consider the conclusions and opinions of someone who has studied before me and is more knowledgeable than me (It's actually pretty scary to see to what degree people can be more knowledgeable than us). That's a big part of the learning process, we learn from each other.

And anyway, you guys can call me Yamna ;D

CG,

During my years of study I have read many many so-called discrepancies/errors/contradictions/etc. and never found any to be a clear problem.

See, the problem is that they exist. We uphold the Qur'an to be the word of God because we believe it's a perfect book free from all "discrepancies/errors/contradictions/etc.". Whether they're really discrepancies or not, the point is at face values, their clear contradictions. I mean, we can twist anything to mean what we want them to mean, even Hadith- and that's how Sunnis advocate their Hadith.

It may sound far-fetched, but I'm just waiting for one really clever person to come here with an answer that wipes out all the attacks websites like Skeptics Annotated Quran and Answering-Islam make on Islam.

And Sister Sarah, Thanks a lot I'm excited to learn from all of you ! handshake

if you hate bogus chanting why should we pray for you P prayer is supposed to have meaning not just some chant

Cause prayer is something personal, and it comes from within without any restrictions. That's a lot different from a ritual prayer where there's more focus on the physical actions and the words you chant were already pre-planned.

I don't disagree with praying, even the traditional Salah is a beautiful thing to help you calm down and quieten yourself as is kneeling down at a church are walking around a Hindu temple. I'm just confused that it's imposed and that we'll be punished (and according to some, out of the religion) if you omit it.

Anyways, Sarah, I'm just curious- what do you wear when you go swimming? D

I'd love to do these kinds of things, I'd love to skii, try out beach activities, try out at a fashion shows, sing and all sorts of stuff. I don't understand why religion should get in the way... (

I don't know how to explain it. There are certain things which I was raised to find nothing wrong with but I give them up because it's my understanding that I'm not supposed to do this. For example, on family vacations, the women in my family don't go swimming in public because either the swimsuits are too skimpy or too clingy which generally exposes the shape and curves of the body. It's my understanding that a woman isn't allowed to reveal the shape of her body or her skin in public.

There are other things for example looking at men. We're told to lower our gaze (and I understand that it's to enforce modesty and avoid temptation)...But the fact that it's strictly forbidden. I mean it's human nature for people to feel attracted looking at certain people. Especially teenagers, its so common to just have innocent crushes and this kind of stuff goes on a lot.

And there are rituals and prayers which I feel are unnecessary and bogus...I don't see how the creator of the universe is going to punish me if I sleep through the morning without waking up to chant some mantras and bow my head down and prostate to the ground.

Well there's a lot more that are enforced by ahadith but lets not get there P

Anyway to Wonderlouse- I'm still doing my research on accepting vs. rejecting the hadith. Right now I'm a sunni muslim but I'm finding reasons to resent their beliefs every day. I just hope you'll pray that I'll be guided on the right path )

I think it would, because a lot of things I do are things I don't personally feel comfortable with but I only do or believe it because it's my understanding that my religion requires me to do it.

So if you find answers to all those contradictions, but one remains - you will lose your faith in the book simply because it claim to not contain any contradictions?
And I am not a believer myself, I am just interested in learning more of everything.

If these contradictions contradict with science then one really doesn't need to worry oneself, science is everevolving and everchanging, and the Quran might make perfect sense, without any contradictions whatsoever, in a future science.

But contradictions that are drawn from the very content of the book itself might be harder to resolve, which is usually where the persons of an ignorant nature tend to ignore them due to the very same fears that you have, but another method could be to realize that the very language itself might have a meaning on a deeper, non-literal, level which absolves all contradictions.

Those are just my thoughts on the issue and I hope you find it helpful.

You see, what people who point out these contradictions tell us is "Yeah, it's funny how flexible the language of the Qur'an is so that the followers can twist and use it to their own advantage." We are never going to know the deeper, non-literal, level meaning for sure, we can only guess. Besides, the Qur'anic verses are supposed to "make things clear" ,or are from a "clear book"

Well, would it really matter if it turns out that the Quran isn't free from contradictions and paradoxes?
Do you base your faith on the contents of a book and the words it contains, or your feelings and inner connection to God?

Of course it would!!

My "feelings and my inner connection to God" ?! Wow, I'm surprised you seem so comfortable even relying on that. If there's one thing that I've concluded a LONG time ago, it's that my feelings are completely, absolutely human, unreliable and based on my exposure and the environment. There are loads of people who's feelings and instincts have lead them to Christianity, Buddhism, Sufism etc. Please, if there's anything that's going to point to the truth, it's definitely not my "feelings". I've had so many feelings about so many things that turned out to be different to what I "felt".

Inner connection to God? I'm truly sorry for seeming arrogant, but unfortunately I haven't had one yet (Still that's what I ask God in every single prayer. For the connection, for me to feel him so that I know that there's noway in the world he doesn't exist. I never stop asking but I haven't received it yet). Anyway, about your inner connection to God, what is that also based on your feelings? What if it wasn't really God you're connecting to, what if it's just a feeling you're conjuring, what if it's based on what you do and what you see? How do you guarantee that it's the very creator of the universe who's making this connection with you.

You can put your faith in anything, but truth will always have manifestations. I thought Islam tells us to verify everything and not just to blindly believe. Besides, it's pretty clear that blind faith is not the concept of Islam according to Qur'an because the Qur'an puts for it's own challenges and falsification tests for those who base their belief on reason. What I don't get is, one of the challenges or falsification tests is the Qur'an claims that it's divinity is proven because it is free from contradictions.

?Do they not then consider the Qur?aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions.?

Therefore the presence of contradictions would naturally falsify it's divinity. Im not jumping to the conclusion that what is on the internet is for sure contradictions but I'm only considering the possibility. And of course, the content of the Qur'an would matter a lot more than my inherent thoughts.

I don't mean the fashion, but the idea of looking for the deeper, mystical, alagorical meaning of passages.

Salams, god clearly states that only the people "In whose hearts is pervasiveness" go looking for the deeper, allegorical meanings of Qur'anic verses. (In Chapter Aali Imraan) Hope that straightens things out...

And thanks for taking the trouble, anyway ;D

Brother Wakas, thanks I felt that was a really intelligent answer.

peace CG,
If one is sincere in this, humble in this, thoughtful in this, and has tried their best, do you honestly think we will be sent "rollin' to Hell" (as you say) if we get it wrong? As the wisdom goes sometimes the point is not in the accomplishment, it is in the doing.

But Yeah I've thought of that too. But like I mentioned, our lifestyles can be SOO drastically different by just picking a different interpretation. Like I mentioned, whether we follow the Hadith or not (which is definitely a VERY serious issue) is gonna be based on our interpretation of "Obey God and Obey the Messenger". Personally I feel, both viewpoints make a lot of sense!

I thought about it, and its quite shocking that according to our beliefs, anyone who rejects Allah and the Qur'an is surely doomed for eternity. What about those people who were sincere and just ended up with the wrong conclusions? We have so many of those, people who just got the wrong idea, and took a different path as us. They believe that they're correct...But we believe that OUR truth is gonna bite them in the butt one day. Poor them, huh?

I'm sorry, but I guess it's obvious that dancing, running and exercising will expose and emphasize a woman's "hidden beauty" ?

It's all in the heart? So why do we have so many things ordained for us to practice? And anyone practical would understand that sometimes the "heart" is misleading and our instincts only formed by the environment and what we're conditioned to think! I really don't think "following the heart" is the solution...

I understand what you mean, and I even thought of it when I wrote these WORDS struck a chord. But still, we're comparing a simple statement to an ENTIRE SCRIPTURE filled with words. I believe that this statement is pretty clear and unambiguous but, it's not the same with the Qur'an. Various translations and rulings are derived from the same verses. I guess, in plain, you can't avoid unambiguity, especially with texts that were written over thousand years ago.

Secondly, I'm not saying that communicating with words is wrong. It only gives rise to "misinterpretation". The question here is about how we let these words govern OUR LIVES? I'm not trying to reject the scripture or whatever, but I'm just wondering if there's some sort of a surprise in the book, waiting to spring out at me and deal with this problem.

Really, I'm not tryin to pick a fight here, I really am confused ???

I'm sorry I couldn't access the link

What is that supposed to mean? This is supposed to be the challenge of the Qur'an, to produce a Surah similar to Qur'an. But in what way? This sounds vague. The opposite of similarity is difference. And anything that's not the same is different. So anything that isn't identical to a Qur'anic verse is going to be different right? I hope that wasn't confusing.

I just don't understand what producing something "similar to it" means. I mean, I could write a poem about the earth and nature and that would be similar to the Qur'an because they both talk about earth and nature- That's the similarity.

To people who claim that Salat isn't a ritual and is more of a personal prayer (even though I think this makes more sense), or a state of mind, why would we have certain conditions listed out in the Qur'an, for example, to face the qiblah, wudhu, the clothes we wear, the tone of voice, to bow and prostrate? These seem pretty physical and ritualistic to me...

I'm a born Muslim and I've believed in the Qur'an my whole life but I recently came across "The Skeptic Annotated Qur'an" which just f**ked me over. This website really gave me the creeps and I really don't know what to say. They have so many powerful arguments, not just one or two to be interpreted differently. They list out numerous contradictions and absurdities in the Qur'an which forms just a very long list. It pretty much goes against the Islamic claim that the Qur'an is free from contradictions (and even paradoxes) and that it is completely compatible with science.

I tried searching for answers that refuted these Skeptics but I couldn't find anything. This has been nagging at the back of my head for a long time. I really haven't lost faith in my religion and in my book, but that's simply because I'm too afraid to and because of my instincts. I hope someone will clear this up for me!

Ahem...Well I guess it's our beloved Achmed who educated me about the 72 Virgins that righteous men are rewarded in paradise. I'm not sure if the statement is accurate, but there is a lot of info in the Qur'an that talks about pure,fair, wide-eyed maidens, or the Hur al 3ayn hmm wow ...It's a bit embarrassing when my non-muslim friends ask me about this Playboy Bunny Paradise!! What do I say?

And is it true that Prophet Suleiman had 300 wives or something? Wow...how did he manage to treat them all "equally"?

I've been thinking for a long time and this is really driving me crazy. The other day, I managed to read a teeny bit of Conversations with God by Neil Walsch which is a book in which the Author claims to have had a two-way conversation with God. Now, I haven't read enough of that book to judge whether it's the truth or not (well, I wouldn't be in that position even I'd read the entire thing) but I caught a glimpse of something I found very, very interesting.

Basically, the author asks "God" why he doesn't talk to people ,generally. The "god" from the book tells him that he's wrong and that he chooses to use the word 'communicate'. The "god" here tells him that he DOES communicate with people through their feelings and experiences and using WORDS is always his last resort because words and text happen to be the most exploited, abused, misunderstood, misinterpreted means of communication there is. Now these few words, really struck a chord. Whether they were the words of God or not, I felt that couldn't have been said better and they were indisputably, a hundred per cent true.

I mean, that's exactly the problem we have over here. Even within the people who say that the Qur'an is our source of guidance and it contains all the information we need pertaining to the religion, there are sooo many different freakin translations and interpretations to the SAME TEXT. It's frustrating, because at the end of the day, they both have equally strong arguments and there's no way in the world to determine which interpretation is what GOD meant.

People say that these differences do not matter, and that following the one that makes the most sense to us is not a problem because they all eventually lead to god, but puh-lease! I sooo beg to differ! We don't realize how dangerous these difference in interpretations are. To begin with, they created the great divide between Muslims (hadith followers and hadith rejectors) and paved the way for a completely new set of rules and things that have limited Muslim men and women for CENTURIES. Things that have led to people leaving the religion and slandering it's name. These different interpretations can change the we live. Something as stupid and small as these different interpretations can lead to a whole mass of people who don't have hands or pious men who comfortably beat the crap out of their wives. It can change the way we practice the religion or the general outlook on Islam.

It's a scary thing, but its just a true fact that one thing can be translated in so many different ways, and one word can mean a whole list of different things. That's the way things are, and the way I see it right now, a small misinterpretation of a verse can send us rollin' to hell and there's nothing we can do about it! Grrrr...Now, I think that's hella UNFAIR!

So is there anything in the Qur'an that deals with this? What do you think?