I have said before on this forum that the Islamist God is a fake God, Islamist God doesn't exist.
Why?
Because, their God is so weak as such the God need human's help to enforce His own law / decree.
And Islamist God's law is so ridiculous that it governed meticulous thing such as "head covers", "no peeing facing Kabba" etc..

Your reason is strange

Otherwise all of those law will be automatically enforced, such as the law of gravity, the law of thermodynamics etc..
The above is the True God's law.

It's realm of knowledge, even it's true, it's invented by the humans.
If God gave all the formulas of mathematic, physics or other sciences explicitly in the Scripture, then this make human lazy for researches, not productive because already written in Scripture.

How about Man of Faith, should you kill him worst than animals ?

JavaLatte ?

He / She deserved to be killed like animals, right ?

If Man of Faith and Javalette agreeing for repent, then not.

In the grave/barzakh, the punishment people get is more scary from what you think as "worst than animal"
In the hell, people get burnet, mutilated and used for snake's feed.

Is this means God against the human right?? ;D
Is rajm/stoning also against human right?? ;D

Did you know this kind of execution was very common during ancient and medieval era
But since human now already get brainwashed by civilliation with liberal concept, then seeing this kinds of punishment will like a horror for the people especially you.

See ? It is so easy to prove that you are lying. . . rotfl

So as your other statement is BS , and that's why you can never refer to which part that you did not agree.

BS....
You just play dumb ;D, I even already posting the dalil both from QUran and hadith
Search yourself in previous pages,

I'm asking about the "Quranist, RK's followers and hadith rejectors in this forum", not about the Ahmadiyya. . .

They're same with the Ahmadiya >D

and remember . . . the Saudi Arabia have already issued the fatwa in 1980s. . .

Saudi is a Wahabi and perhaps Saudi polis will slaughter the Ahmadiyas even withouth notice

as always, blank accusations and blank denials of the Quran , BS . .

Because this is the fact and clear evidences ;D
You also avoid many parameters

See? another BS, and no proper methodology from the Islamic Jurisprudence . . . as always.

It's you who don't understand what MH Kamali wrote....
In the fact MH Kamali is not a heretic and he just repeat what the previous ulema said in the easy format.

and why are you ignoring this question ?

I'm not ignoring instead I already answered it
Hypocrite?? Please learn your hadith again and how reliable sahabat give punishment to that kind of people

The step is like this

• The muslims will give the ultimatum to Ahmadiya to repent
  And this already did by Moslem NGOs by ask Ahmadiya follower to stop their activities and go back to straight path
  This ultimatum is called "Surat Keputusan Bersama" and one of point said "Ahmadiya will allowed to keep their activities as long as they don't label themself as Islam"

But Ahmadiya refused instead they keep practice their teaching and even dare to started recruiting the new followers.

If you follow hadith which is written not your brain, then you will now if their blood is halal.

Salaam

You are just being a sectarian, lazy and jealous because of their success . .
and you don't believe the Quran. . that success is for the Believers . .

So that kind of Chinese is the believer??

do not be of those who associate others with Allah
of those who have divided their way of life and become sects
every faction rejoicing in what it has
3031

So you started to hijack Quranic verses
Quran is your Scritupre and the hadith is your own brain??

They are apostasy simply because they believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Imam Mahdi ? rotfl

It's like Mohammed cut the hand of a thief, just because he stole one penny rotfl -X

end result, killed, raped and burned people alive

irrelevant issue and please re-read my post about it!!

"...WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND..."

The less than 1% minority want to take over the Indonesia country, just what they did in Singapore and Thailand.

The contention is very sound and logic.

Great Fallacy!!!

To take control of the land, the quality is needed not the quantity.
White minority in South Africa and Zimbabwe capable to take control of the country during the apartheid era.
Their count only few percents in the population

1%?? From where the data you get?? wikipedia?? rotfl

If you want to know the fact, some of Chinese in here disguised as non-chinese because their trauma of New Order's policy.
And some of them until now still refused to be labeled as China or Tionghoa and started to used non-chinese names

This also happens during 2000 cencus, most of Chinese at time still go outside country and some of them still refused to be acknowledged as chinese.
I ever heard the a Christian Chinese family in Medan disguised themself as Minasahan ethnic and adopted Minahasan surnames during that era

According 1930 cencus during the Dutch occupation, the chinese is only 2,30%, and most of them concentrated in Java, Sumatra and Kalemantan/Borneo.

But after the new influx of immigrations for long times, and when the chinese start to became honest to expose their identity
THUS the shocking fact is they're 12 million!!! in 2014 census.
And still...... they're mostly concentrated in western part of Indonesia (Sumatra, Java, Borneo and Greater Riau Islands)

If you think chinese in Indonesia, Malaysia and other SEA countries don't related each other, then you are wrong

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_network

This is the good article about Chinese hegemony in Indonesia (both economy and politically)

http//radennuh.org/2014/02/20/setelah-hegemoni-ekonomi-kini-saatnya-etnis-cina-berkuasa-penuh-di-ri/

I do businnes with some Chinese and I already realized this from the start.I ever go to a chinese party and I found many chinese who speak Mandarin, then I know if they're chinese foreigners (can be from Malaysia or Singapore).

Please open your eyes!!! it's not about dumb nationalities, but for how we behold the balance between chinese hegemony and our identity as muslims.

Simple rules, two sides, if one side is down the other side will raised

http//www.fkpmaritim.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/KonflikLautChinaSelatan2.png

Salaam

Another self contradicting statement ? or. . you mean to say "muslims who kill muslims (from the same sect) like in the Aceh case"

I mean, death sentece is permisable if the muslims do apostasy,

But in the Aceh case, the killings in there is not in the name of Allah but for political reason
Such kind of killing is haram

I believe they make the syahada, pray to the same Allah, fasting, pay zakat . . go to hajj and teach righteousness etc. (refer here). They are muslim as the majority called themselves a Muslim.

There're many heretic muslims during caliphate eras who corrupted Islamic teaching and most of them get punished

Ok thanks for the evidences guys,
Yes I already aware from the start if you guys will see it as hoax since it caming from nowhere,

But I want to ask something

"That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier (barzakhun) until the Day they are resurrected." (23100)

What is the "barzakh" in this ayat??

Salaam

Oh yes muslims who kill muslims like in the Aceh case, the muslim killers cannot be called as muslim

In the past I lived in Indonesia, but it doesn't means I support the government. Government and citizen/civvilian are two different entities
Allah is the most I loyal to and all good muslims whatever their sects, race, countries as long as they're not corrupted Quran and hadith, they're my brother ans sisters.

Embrance Ukhuwah Islamiyah (Islamic brotherhood)

Salaam my brother muslims

I WARN YOU TO SHUT UP IF YOU LACK OF COMPEREHENSIVE AND UNDERSTANDING SKILL

YOUR ARGUMENTS IS NONE BUT PROVOCATIONS

MEANWHILE WHERE IS THE RELATION OF CHINESE and WEST PAPUAN KILLING WITH ME AND ISLAM

DONT BE CHILDISH PAL!!!!!

http//www.mobilbaru.info/2014/04/pemerkosaan-wanita-etnis-tionghoa-di.html

I told you this issue, THIS IS JUST A CONSPIRATIONS CREATED BY SOME CHINESE BASTARDS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND

YOU NEVER MET THIS BASTARDS IN THE COUNTRY BECAUSE MOST OF THEM HIDING IN SINGAPORE, TAIWAN and PEOPLE REPUBLIC CHINA

Remember I write "some" means not all Chinese.There are many good chinese who understand peace and not do bad scheme

BTW why you care so much with the chinese while the main victims is not the chinese, but Suharto oppositions, collegers and looter in Jogja plaza.
They're missing, kidnapped, jailed and get killed during operation code named "Mawar".Most of the killers are organized people by army

Read http//id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penculikan_aktivis_1997/1998
http//id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedi_Semanggi

Most of victims are still moslems ya know, some of them even muslims activist...
Do you know during Suharto regime, the mosques were being watched by government spies and if an imam do khotbah by critize government the imam will face hard punishment

Also during the regime, the muslims was forbidden to used the word Allah

Plus take a look that website, who is the person who wrote that?? LAY CAO LAY, a chinese provokator!!!

I will quoted a stupid claim from that website

Tim relawan untuk kemanusian Divisi Perempuan sesungguhnya adalah tim relawan untuk kemanusiaan yang lebih besar dan dipimpin Romo Sandyawan

"Tim sudah melakukan identifikasi korban-korban kerusuhan yang jumlahnya mencapai 1333 orang, hampir sebagian besar adalah orang Tionghoa. Sekarang, kami sungguh-sungguh sangat marah karena perempuan dijadikan target atau obyek untuk mengintimidasi masyarakat lewat kekerasan seksual. Ini adalah state violence." tegas Romo Sandyawan

Red part Most of victim are chinese

But it's very contradict with the Tim Gabungan Pencari Fakta's data, the legal investigator team purposed to investigate the 1998 incident,

This is their data http//semanggipeduli.com/tgpf/bab4.html

From that data, we know if the rape victims are only 34 people, and some of them are not chinese
So the website you cited are absolutely LIAR!!!

(1) data Tim Relewan 1190 orang akibat ter/dibakar

This is the main victims 1190 people get burned and most of them are looters inside Jogja plaza

If you still disagree, watch this http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6XsTwf9c8I
In that videos, there are two Indonesian chinese give the testimony and straightly tackle your whole arguments

1. Ester Indahyani Yusuf , a member of Tim Gabungan Pencari Fakta and the writer of a book about the incident
2. Christianto Wibisono, his home was destroyed during the riot and he give testimony for what actually happen in minute 10450

So brother....... I think you start to slander your fellow muslims and start to support the devilish provocators.
How can someone like you capable to get the God's salvation??

Oh yes, I will give you the example of Chinese provocators https//www.facebook.com/xiaoyucan?fref=nf
http//yinnihuarendexueleishi.blogspot.com/
http//yinnihuarendeshehuigeming.blogspot.com/

Now what I want discuss is about Ahmadiya, because if I talking with you about chinese you will not connect and always misslead

and it is unjust to kill people and oppressed the minority in Indonesia.

then what is relation with our discussion??
You simply posting baseless videos

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBFhpvEX_O8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxA0Ss01dA

http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Indonesia+oppressed+christians

I only recognized the second video by Aljazeera and this is still the same case with the previous one
Notice a person named Manurung in there, he is a Bataknese

The other videos somewhat the picture is true, but not the dubbing or commentatories
Do you think when Christian do missionary activities, make moslems convert to their religon, we muslims just sit down and do nothing??

Example of Christian misionary activities

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEYCZMlJz1g
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CToQS6zohCM
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWVCT-GeUU

You don't know nothing the situation in this country bro......
But it's time I told you, Christian may minorities in here, but some of their chruch and ministries was backed by international missinaries organizations stationed in some countries like German and America.
The work is simple, if a missionary capable to convert non christian (lost sheep) into their religion, then the misionary will get reward from that organizations.

Watch the explanation from former Christian http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sY4yXI7M00

You get many her videos by type "Irine Handono" in search tab.

The
The issue is not simple as you think, perhaps in Malaysia there is none or lest such a thing since Malaysia adopted sharia in the constitution

You may heard in a video mentioned "Laskar Jihad" right??
The first purpose of this group first is to defend moslems from Christian attack in Sulawesi
But I don't know why this suddenly turned into Taleban-like.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskar_Jihad

Remember the Christians also did many sin against us (muslims) during the Poso and Ambon conflict.

How about Chinese minority?

You rape and burned them alive?

By using the word "you" means you accuse me to attack the chinese.

Sorry to said this, but I WARN YOU!!! to don't so easily play slander to other person

Beside that, I'm not in Jakarta during the riots

http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg
http//kerusuhan-mei-1998.blogspot.com/
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ypwStRa2kw/UsdV1whEbhI/AAAAAAAAC4c/r3hS6CrLN1A/s1600/kerusuhan-mei-1998.jpg
http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jakarta+anti-chinese+riots+

The whole image and video is FAKE

The 1998 protest is Anti Suhato protest not anti chinese and the main victims mostly colleger and protestestors who get shot and annilihated by military forces.
Plus the people who get burned are the looters in Jogja plaza, the story is during the riots some organized groups invite people to loots the goods in that plaza then when the crowd inside that plaze, that organized group burned them alive

I told you, yes the chinese cassualties is exist but they're very little,

More detail http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpW-5ObbKA

You don't understand, what typically chinese is.The chinese is type of ethnic who uphold ethnic chauvinim.
Means you give bad in their name especially their surname and perhaps you do public execution against them then the whole chinese will get anger and using some ways to take revenge.

The picture you posted was very anonymous and don't know who really upload this.

Expecially this http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg

I'm gotta laugh when see this, how can the creator of this image can did easily by matching the victims with the irrelevant photos.

First notice the first photo who see three mens rape alleged chinese girl, if you want to know it's the Japanese porn video

DO YOU EVER REALIZE IT, THE HUMAN RIGHTS BOTH FROM LOCAL AND FOREIGN NEVER RELEASE THAT KIND OF IMAGES NOR THE IMAGE NEVER SHOWING IN THE MEDIA LIKE TV.PLUS THE MOST IMAGE ALWAYS IN CHINESE LANGUAGE.WHY YOU DON"T REALIZE IT INSTEAD BELIEVE THE HOAXS SO EASILY??

What are you saying? This video is fake ? rotfl

I never said the Ahmadiya video is a fake!!!
I said if the second video about HKBP church is a missleading news

NOW MUSLIMS LOOK UPON YOU!!! YOU WHOLE ACTIVITIES IN HERE ONLY PUT SLANDER AGAINST YOUR FELLOW MUSLIMS AND MAKE THEIR POSISTION TO BECAME WEAKENED IN THE PUBLIC

1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder to make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting

Salaam Noon Waalqalami

to make clear

According to you there is no word "you" in there, but please pay notice with ta' in there )
I believe the Quran cannot be translated to literally or per-words

It was a decree revealed to him that Muhammad recited to the people and because the discourse was explicitly received by Muhammad himself then obviously the passage is formulated this way. It is what Muhammad recites in the narration that will bring mankind out of darkness into the light. The information given to Muhammad is what brings people to the Light, and this is in the decree that is being revealed in the Recitation (Qur'an). Because Muhammad at the time was in possession of what was being revealed then obviously the passage is constructed that way.

Salaam Man of Faith
Quran is God's words/wahy to Muhammad not the Bible who contains God's words + Jesus or other Phrophets's hadith

Salaam

There are some missconception of punishment occured inside the buried grave soils, but actually not.

Punishment inside the grave is just a figurative term, while the real punishment happened in the Barzakh realm
This realm existed between this world and the Al-Akheerat world, the word "barzakh" itself literally means barrier or separation, the barrier between this word and Akheerat world.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barzakh

Sadly some Quran Alone follower don't believe it while this had been mentioned in the Quran

"That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier (barzakhun) until the Day they are resurrected." (23100)

"They say Our Lord! Twice hast Thou made us die, and twice hast Thou made us live. Now we confess our sins. Is there any way to go out?" (4011)

Now from 4011, the God make human die and ressurected twice.Now guys you can imagine what this means....

After the human die he will resurrected in the Barzakh realm and face judgement in there
Then the human will die again and will be ressurected again to face the final judgement in the AL-AKheerat.

Now I will summarize the picture

Yes I believe if the body will started to decomposed within the hours and in some certain stages the corpse will turned into greenish especially in the upper areas (neck, head shoulder) after 24-36 hours.

At that stage the body already stopped to produce the blood and perhaps the blood became frozen inside

But notice the picture!!!

(Disturbing Image) http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-OUutUtv87KE/T0kPMdsUlQI/AAAAAAAAAJY/XkZKmL5nMUg/s320/siksa+kubur.jpg
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVxdjmfl8A

• The corpse still bleeding and it's least impossible if he been buried in the state like that

• Second notice the eyes and ask the forensic experts for how can the eyes became destroyed like that with bruishes surrounding on it.
  It's like it been beaten by hard material.

• Also notice the nose is not normally straight maybe the result of beating.

There are another proofs of this punishment

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4NEFQK7DEk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTOAjJ5dy8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-XCCxT7zjM

This is my opinion based on some facts and references.You believe it or not it's up to you

This what you and your scholars interpret, ie . . Muhammad's words is the indirect wahy of God. . .

wow now you spoke like scholar itself and know everything ;D

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed

First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in Ahadith

The tafseer of An Najm ayat 4

Dalam ayat ini, Allah SWT menguatkan ayat 3; yakni bahwa Muhammad saw hanyalah mengatakan apa yang diperintahkan oleh Allah SWT untuk disampaikan kepada manusia secara sempurna, tidak ditambah-tambah dan tidak pula dikurangi menurut apa yang diwahyukan kepadanya.
Abdullah bin 'Amr bin 'As menulis setiap apa yang ia dengar dari Rasulullah saw, karena ia mau menghafalkannya. Tapi orang-orang Quraisy melarangnya. Mereka mengatakan mengapa ia menulis setiap perkataan Muhammad, sedangkan Muhammad itu adalah manusia biasa yang berkata dalam keadaan marah. Maka berhentilah Abdullah bin Umar menulis. Kemudian ia mendatangi Rasulullah saw, dan memberitahukan perihalnya itu. Maka bersabdalah Rasulullah saw

Artinya
"Tulislah, demi Tuhan, tidak ada yang keluar dari perkataanku kecuali kebenaran".
(H.R. Ahmad dan Abu Daud)
Al Hafiz, Abu Bakar Al Bazzar mendapat riwayat dari Ahmad bin Mansyur, dari Abdullah bin Saleh, dari Al Lais, dari Ibnu Ajlan, dari Zaid bin Aslam, dari Abu Saleh dan dari Abu Hurairah bahwasanya Nabi Muhammad saw bersabda

Artinya
"Apa-apa yang aku katakan kepadamu bahwa ia dari Allah SWT, maka tidak ada keraguan padanya".
(HR. Abu Hurairah)
Dari Yunus, Lais, Muhammad bin Said bin Abu Said, dari Abu Hurairah mereka berkata bahwa Rasulullah saw bersabda

Artinya
"tidaklah aku berkata kecuali yang benar".
(HR. Abu Hurairah, Lihat Tafsir Al Maragi, hl. 45, juz 27, jilid IX)

Daripada Ali bin Abi Thalib r.a. berkata telah bersabda Rasulullah saw.;
Sudah hampir sampai suatu masa di mana tidak tinggal lagi daripada Islam ini
kecuali hanya namanya, dan tidak tinggal daripada Al-Quran itu kecuali hanya tulisannya.
Masjid-masjid mereka tersergam indah, tetapi ia kosong daripada hidayah.
Ulama mereka adalah sejahat-jahat makhluk yang ada di bawah naungan langit.
Dari mereka berpunca fitnah (penipuan), dan kepada mereka fitnah (penipuan) ini akan kembali??
(HR al-Baihaqi)

So you accuse me for not getting the hidayah?? pray in heretic masjid??

Sadar diri kau lah... you blame the great scholars like Syaf'i, Hanbali, Hanafi, Al-Ghazali etc and created your own tafseer with has no concept at all.

Hmm perhaps you're the only muslim who survived from punishment in the grave ???

Brother, "authentic scholars" is not a "reason". . . it is appeal to authority, a fallacy

Brother, refute sholars, but using their work (translation, mushaf) is more worst than fallacy ;D

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

The first video is our main issue right now, but not the second....

I'm sad, someone like you believe so easily with youtube videos O0
Yes some videos is authentic/fact and uploaded by formal groups, but you must notice some videos is also fakes, jokes, misslead titles, provocations etc

Example http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM0Ozn52pUc

People who don't understand Malay language will think if Indonesia and Malaysia was in war because East Kalimantan dispute and alleged separatist named "Republic of Sorona".

But actually this video is about Indonesian military drills and Republic Sorona is a fake rogue state and used for dramatized enemy. Malaysia didn't involved in that drill.

Plus the second video about alleged prosecution against Christian is a misslead news.
It's not muslims NGO who destroy the church but the government officials,
The church is HKBP, a Bataknese chruch and it's illegal because has no proper certificate.

If you want to know, there are many illegal buildings in Indonesia and bulldozer in action is common thing in here.

Salaam Man of Faith

Can you please write me the passage in the recitation that says this?

141 Alif, Lam, Ra. a Book which We have revealed to you, , that you might bring mankind out of darknesses into the light by permission of their Lord - to the path of the Exalted in Might, the Praiseworthy -

From this verse we know if Muhammad is the human who have more authority to explain Quran.

also in this verse

1644 with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

Now how to learn Muhammad (saw) explanations is by reading Ahadith, the only records of his sunnah.

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

There are many hadith which properchied someone like @muslims who intepret the Quran by his own desire, including this one

Phrophet sallahu'alayhi wa sallam said You know, actually I was given the Qur'an and something similar to the Qur'an. Know this, there will be a rich man who sat on the plush seat and he said, "Hold you the Qur'an. Whatever is said lawful in the Qur'an , then it's halal, otherwise whatever it is said illicit in the Al-Qur'an, then it's haraam . Surely anything that is forbidden by the Prophet, God also see it as haraam " (Takhrijul Msykat no 163)

Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.? (Sunan Abu Dawud)

Look now in this thread for how brother @muslims intepret the Quran.
He is very confident to intepret it withouth mastering first the hadith, tafseer , classical Arab, .... just like the man in thaat two hadits.

So before we intepret the Quran as the God's word, someone need mastering the Phrophet Mohammed's sunnah first.
If not you will find many speculative , disputable and nonconceptual intepretations like you found in this forum.

This is one of the most abused phrases in the recitation. People forget to think about what exactly is to be obeyed, i.e. what is the decree taught.

Mohammad is not only Naby but also a Rasool.
Naby is simply a person who received the wahy and the Rasool is the naby who became living example for the ummah for how to practice God's teaching.

Example of Rasool Nooh, Abraham, Moses, Esa, and Muhammed (all of them, peace upon them)

It is always possible to apply logic and reason in the interpretation also. It is obviously cadaver found in nature such as those killed by other animals.

It's the sign of speculations

Salaam muslims

I'm not cited the verse based on my own but from some authentic scholars.
Plus there are many evidences, if some heretic and murtadz people been punished both during Phrophet and Caliphate era

Plus for that christian church, it's HKBP (Huria Christian Batak Protestant), the Bataknese church.
This chuch always against the laws a.k.a they always build the church illegally withouth registered the SKBP certificate.

The muslims crowds is just shouting themself and the one who operate bulldozer of course the government agent.

I'm getting boring with your confusion . . do you understand our conversation ? rotfl

We are the first stage, and we are speaking about the Principle of Jurisprudence , Usul al Fiqh . . .

We are the process of identifying the main principle from the Quran, and then we will go to the hadith . .

Further . I am also a hadith followers . . so why you bring up the issue ?

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

Example

2;173 He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

Then with Muhammad knowledge, we will know what that dead animal refers to

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

What repeating ? You don't even passed the first stage. . the Quran . . and you are trying hard to make Allah obey your rules , as your servant !

Dear brother......... someone need to mastering tafseer ,hadith and Classical Arab first before he capable to understand and translate the Quran including the translation you used right now.

I already told you, please answer this Quran explain hadith or hadith explain Quran??

This is related well with this case, but it seems you always avoid for answering.

Of course I'm confident, because it is a clear contradiction with the Quran and common sense . .

There is a shahih hadith

Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.?

(Sunan Abu Dawud 4604)

This hadith is a properchy about you guys who rejecting hadith or just see it as man-made laws.

Plus you who said "Buckhari co".What's wrong with Bukhari co??

The Quran is not silent on the issue and why you want to make the Quran to be silent ? laugh

Quran is silent because it's a record of conversation between Allah and Muhammad (saw) not complete guide like in the Bible.
Quran also confirms if Allah already blessed Muhammad with Islamic knowledges (risalah).
And from that Muhammad risalah, we capable to understand Islam and Quran.

I believe you also reject something like grave punishment, circumcision, forbids for anal sex and etc

That's why I'm asking you . . . where is the ayat ?

I already answer it before...

Look brother.... if you see this discussion as debate then you already lost
The proof is you always repeating the questions which I already answered before

Again. . I think you are just lying , over and over again . .
claiming what you never did, and ignoring verses from the Quran.

Now you accused me as a liar, you starting to lack of common sense
Dear brother you're not scholar, sahaba, mufassir or something, and even Classical fusha of Arabic.
But why you so confidence to intepret Quran with many speculations?? (avoid asbabul nuzul etc)

The Quran is not silent on this issue and look the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

For "Quran is silent", I only cited from the book you used as source (not mine words).

Quran's format is general commandment not protocols.
Al- Hikmah (wisdom, sunnah, some of Allah knowledges) are not written entirely in the Quran, but prescribed inside Muhammad.

I already replied for it http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.You intepret the Quran like that, but other people may have different intepretations.