Bold Poor estimations with low quality.

OK my choice of words isn't reverential but I feel there is no need for it to be.
Do you have a better alternate explanation to the purpose of creation? Quran clearly says its option 3.

5156 And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.

Sounds like ego

4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right)

Sounds like an awful lot of jealousy

Imagine A is all knowing and has prior knowledge about everything. A says to B "B I know you will rebel against me, you will betray me and deny me". Imagine A would judge B solely on the basis of that knowledge.

Now let's turn the tables. There is a way bigger paradox about free will when you leave the above out of the equation. There is no room for free will in a universe that is chaos driven without design. Without a God, without an afterlife, every human is just subjected to his environment and genes. Without the above, you are a darwinian chain in the wheel, only contributing to the survival of species. When you die, the only thing remaining will be in the best case your dna. Where is the self-importance in that?

I think both these arguments say the same thing with one major difference. In the first case an entity that knows what you will do based on his knowledge of the state of the universe at its beginning. In the second one your actions are defined at a molecular level by the state of the subatomic particles at that moment. A person's actions are predetermined in both cases, the only difference being that in a religious context GOD is already aware.

This is an argument which will lead us nowhere as this can neither prove nor disprove the presence of an intelligent and thinking God.

Here is an interesting extract from conclusion of the latest experiments in decision prediction based on brain activity

The implications of this research are obvious by the time were conscious of having made a choice, that choice has already been made for usby our genes and our environmentsand the consciousness is merely reporting something determined beforehand in the brain.

We are the only species with intelligence capable of thinking about the universe. About life and death so many other things all other species on this planet are incapable of understanding. We were given a consciousness that is unique on this planet.

I consider us to be just very advanced computers made of meat and bone. We cant rationally deduce that we are the reason for creation of the universe just because we can reflect upon it. It seems like wishful thinking to me.

The neuro connections in a brain are as numerous as stars in this universe. It's a pretty impossible task understanding the human mind using the human mind as a tool.

Yes but this doesnt stop us from getting an insight into the mind and drawing conclusion based on research. The brain of any organism is simply an advanced parallel processing computer which has evolved over millions of years. The difference between computers and biological brains is of quality over quantity. Biological brains are just very efficient at adapting to its surroundings. Hence the reason that a cockroach is more intelligent than the fastest of computers.

One of the first subjects studied buy neuro-scientists is electricity and its equations

or afterlife to exist there is no necessity for a replica of your soul. To me life in this reality involves a connection between soul and body. A connection that is severed with death. Science is incapable of answering even the simplest question like where does consciousness reside? In the mind? In your heart?

Science does attempt to answer this question. The illusion of reality which we can also call our consciousness is our soul. It is a product of the biological processes going on in the neurons of our brain. It is not separate from our body they are one and the same thing.

Lets assume that soul exists as defined by religion, as in it is an upper level of consciousness that uses the human body as a vehicle. I have never seen nor felt this soul. Where does it go when I am sleeping? Why does it not remember anything about before I was born? God tells us to remember the promise our souls made to him. I don't remember anything like that. What I do remember is that I had the soul of a child when I was a child and it has matured with time. Does this mean that in the afterlife my soul will be more mature than a someone who dies as a child. If an infant dies does he even have a soul?
Will the soul in the afterlife be the same "ME" that I am in this world. Will I remember what I did in this world or will it be just like I dont remember what I did before I was born. If that is the case than even if that soul exists it is not the "ME" which I am in this world today. It wont recognize my wife, kids or parents.

Science is incapable of answering even the simplest question like where does consciousness reside? In the mind? In your heart? There is not even agreement on how consciousness should be defined. Religion offers answers to these topics. It's beyond doubt consciousness is a real thing as it even influences quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics though did nothing to reveal the properties of consciousness, it only deepened the mystery.

Quantum mechanism is the fabric of our existence. It is affected by everything that exists in it. I think it is lazy to delegate to religion anything we don't yet understand or even want to understand in some cases.

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I think it would be a good idea to move this discussion towards divinity of the Quran. Arguments over existence of God has been going on unresolved for centuries and I doubt if our discussion over it is going to lead us anywhere.

My position is that I can concede that although it looks unlikely to me, there is logical and scientific possibility that an an all powerful entity exists.

I will assume that an afterlife for our consciousness also exists and we are one of the if not the sole purpose of the creation of this universe.

That leads us to ask is the Qur'an or any other religion divine in a sense that it was sent down by God or perhaps programmed into our genes for us to be lead to that conclusion.

We should first ask about the nature of such a creator and the purpose of our creation. We can say that we were created either

1. Just for fun
2. As a research experiment
3. To satisfy God's ego and for him to show off to the Malaika or to something else that he had himself created

Can anyone think of a fourth option? The Abrahamic religions tells us in a refined way that it was option 3.

But tone down on the image of God as a grumpy old man with beard that wants ultimate obedience in a slave-like environment as if the god has an ego and instead imagine the most advanced but yet One as a singularity in existence and with us within it. From it we have come and to it we shall return; that phrase is quite old is it not?

I am ready to do that but if you pick any religion the only thing you will find is the same grumpy old man throwing down lightning bolts from the sky.
Although he acknowledges the Human intellect, nowhere in any scripture does he provide any information or reasoning that a person cant arrive at without scripture.

So essentially a scripture is only confirming what is the most pleasing argument to a human (afterlife, heaven etc) and the proof it provides is by telling you that since you already arrived at this conclusion this must be the truth. Classic catch22.

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I have my own idea about how religion must have started

1. Man starts contemplating the concepts of birth and death.
2. He begins to understand the concept of past present and future.
3. Man starts thinking what happened in the distant past, what will happen in the distant future and what will happen if he keeps going up in the sky. Will it ever end?
4. Man suddenly realizes that he can only comprehend finite. He starts to go mad over these ideas. He wants to find out how the first man was created.
5. Another more clever man comes to him claiming to have received a message from a powerful king in the sky who claims to be able to answer all questions. This is how their discussion goes
   Q Creation
   A Easy! the powerful king put the first man on earth

Q After Death
A The same king will take you to a beautiful place if you are good and you fight in his name, if not he will punish you for all eternity

Q So what about the king himself
A It is not you place to ask these questions. You will not be able to comprehend. Next question!

Q How do I know you are not lying
A Me? Lying? Take a look around you. Look at that tree. Can you make something like it. Look at this small ant. Can you ever make something as fine as this. Look at the lamps in the sky. Can you hang anything in the sky. Who do you think did all this stuff? The King did it.

Q Can you ask him how he did it
A Its easy. He did in Six days and didnt even get tired.

Q Wow! that must be a powerful king. What does he want me to do?
A He wants you to remember him all the time and not to think that there may be another king as well, because that is just ridiculous. He also doesnt want you to worship the king that the guys on the other side of the river acknowledge. That king is a false king.

Q Can you elaborate more
A Here take this book. It has everything you need.

Hi good logic.

I am not an expert in existensialist discussion as I have just recently moved from Quranic perspective on life to an agnostic one. I will try to explain my ideas in the best way that I can

To believe is to have confidence in something , or the reliability of something, even without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.
It is the unshakable conviction that something exists whether it is physical or mental, seen or unseen, agreed upon by others or not.

I think your definition of belief is absolutely correct. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Every person has the right to believe in what he wishes to. However that does not change the factual truth and reality which we can observe and measure with our senses.

Where does belief come from in the first place. All belief is related to the presence of powerful deity or deities. Although a deity's existence can be argued it perhaps can never ever be proven. So this will always remain the domain of belief. But where does this unshakable belief come from?

Does it come from the logical argument that there needs to be a creator? which in turns makes a strong case for the need of scripture. Or is it scripture which makes you believe in the deity. Doesn't scripture confirm what you already suspected was the truth? Isn't the God of the Quran essentially the same entity as that of many other religions with just small differences. Is the deity which they believe in something else entirely or is it the same God but with different characteristics than what they claim. What is it then that sets him apart from the god of other religions? If the Qur'an asked you to sacrifice your first born child to prove your belief would you still believe it to be the word of God? Doesn't that mean that you already know what right is from wrong. Hence the reason for the apologist behavior and lectures on the miracles of Quran's analogies and metaphors when some text in the Quran doesn't conform to our sensibilities.

Every religious person has an unshakable belief in his creed. Even Quranist's or God alone (very inappropriate terms but used here for lack a better choice of words) although very open minded about many things, have a certain degree of unshakable beliefs. It does not even occur that there is a possibility that the Quran may not be the direct revealed word of God.

I agree it is futile to convince others that their belief may be wrong. The most devastating part of having one's beliefs being challenged are not that he doesn't want to admit it that his God is the wrong one. Its the fear that he may not find the right religion at all and of the unanswerable existential questions that will arise as a result of it. Moving from one religion to another is not that bad. But going from god to perhaps no god; there is no worse feeling than to look at your children and consider the possibility that one day they will die and that may be the end of their existence.

Hi runninglikezebras. Thanks for your detailed response.

I think this dialogue can be split into four separate but related discussions.

1. Does there exist a creative force

Science does say that it is possible for something like the universe to come out of existence from nothing. But this theory is highly unintuitive and not even 100% mathematically sound at the moment.
A mental block in dealing with these problems is our inability to comprehend the reality of time and space. Physics can draw equations and models of how there can be no time but there is no way for us to imagine a time without time. Mathematically and experimentally proven relationships between space and time, entropy and time, speed of light and time; make it even more difficult to imagine what time is. It is something like trying to imagine what infinite is. You can write it own paper as an equation but its impossible to imagine. Our minds are evolved like other organisms to comprehend finite three dimensions in a unidirectional and regular flow of time.

First of all, God tells us in Quran with a metaphor how the process works. It states God says "Be" and "It is". Furthermore God tells us how easy this is for Him. Requiring little effort.

To me these words don't seem to be something special coming directly from a God trying to explain the intricacies of the universe. Its more like "management speak"; the art of talking without saying anything. It's the kind of statement a human mind will come up with when trying to explain a creator using intuition. Wizards do these kinds of things in fairy tales all the time. It doesnt require the high intellectual ability one would expect from an omnipotent to come up with an explanation like this.

First of all, religion aside, there is no question about wether or not there is a creative force. Time and space are the result of a creative force.

Although intuition is not a sound argument but in the absence of alternate physical evidence I think we can for the time being agree that there is most likely a creative force (not necessarily intelligent).

So I will not say that there is no question about an "intelligent" creator, but for the purpose of this discussion I will agree with you on this, because if I don't then there is no point in moving on to the next question. You can call it a God, I will call it the reason/source of creation that is intelligent but we are essentially talking about the same thing.

2. Does the creative force interact with his creation

This is where religion and science are really at odds with each other. A creator can only interact with his creation through either miracles or by having prior knowledge.

In case of prior knowledge we enter the free will territory which simply put is a paradox. It does not do anything to reassure my self-importance

For miracles science says no. Religion says yes. Miracles that are reported to have happened always have a physical scientific explanation behind them, or they happen behind closed doors or in ancient times.
If we believe in divine scripture then we have to believe that God interacts with his creation.

3. Are we a byproduct or the purpose of the creation of the universe

Add to that the details God gives us on the well balanced system and order of the reality that surrounds us (think of the function of celestial bodies, biological functions etc). It's systematic, with a common goal namely sustain life for mankind.

This is where I think religion comes in with the feel good factor. The earth used to be the center of the universe. That was enough proof that we are the reason for its existence.
That is now changed to the universal constants and finely tuned physical values that are proof of the purpose of our existence. How can we say that we are the reason for creation of the universe. Perhaps its the cat? or any other species for that matter? what's so special about us that gives us a sense of entitlement. We wont even survive a meteorite collision. Isnt it more possible that its a product of mathematical probability that life and as a consequence we humans exist on earth. If the human race is wiped out and in a few generation another species of ape takes our place where would that leave our self-worth?
It seems to be a terrible waste considering the vastness of the universe that we are the reason for its creation. Perhaps there is a reason but we definitely are not it.

There is a remarkable sense of order within a chaotic universe. All elements are provided in exact amounts the puzzle falls into place for us.

There are also billions of planets where this is not true. This could just as possibly be a throw of dice. It is only religion which provides a sense of importance to us. This is a more refined way of trying to find the word "Allah" in fruits and vegetables. Of the billions of fruit and vegetables there are bound to be some where the seeds are arranged to form the words Allah, Muhammad, Jesus or Mary.

Quran even answers the question who created God. No one. God was never created. Creation only makes sense in a time space continuum. If God was restricted to a space time framework, how could God be omnipotent? If something created God, it would be very self-contradicting wouldnt it?

That much science tells us as well but the question remains. Is that creative force intelligent? Is it god? Science says there is something which is not limited by space and time. If it is god or not, that doesnt do anything to prove or disprove that we are something special. It also doesnt prove that religion is divine.

4. Existence of afterlife

This comes inside the area of biology. Modern neuroscience can explain in much detail how our consciousness and reality works. It is more amazing than anything religion has ever come up with. It is purely a product of evolution. There is nothing to suggest that their is a soul inside the human body. We are apes but just a bit more clever than chimps and gorillas.
If afterlife exists it will require a miracle like there being a DVD replica of our souls somewhere else which is activated when we die here on earth, however this is highly unlikely.

There is a verse by Mirza Ghalib, a famous and arguably one of the best Indian poets who lived in the 19th century

we know the reality/truth of Paradise, but
to keep the heart happy, Ghalib, this idea is good

Just wondering, how do you explain what triggered big bang? Did matter exist out of nothing? I wonder how you explain the creation of this universe without a God-factor.

I can't. But neither can religion.

Saying God did it is simply a different way of saying I don't know. There may or may not be a creative force behind the reality of everything. This is a question that will probably remain unanswered. Its a sort of catch22 situation. OK God created the universe, but then who created God? The answer that religion gives is that well you are not supposed to ask that question because you wont understand. This doesn't lead us anywhere.

Consider for example the multiverse theory which tries to explain what was before the big bang. It may or may not be right. If it is then we could ask well who created the multiverse then. The answer can be found again in religion that God created it.

Just because our life has meaning to us doesn't not necessarily imply that it must have a purpose as well. A cat loves its life. We never say, now that the cat has died, its soul is in afterlife. While it was alive the cat had an illusion of reality. Its now dead and gone. It does not exist anymore and we are not concerned. We have the same illusion of reality albeit a more refined one. If there exists a divine, he is perhaps more unconcerned about our afterlife than we are about the cat's. We can hope against hope that there is an afterlife, but there is no reason or evidence for any.

O Those Who believe, Do not take/accept contendedness/gratification(mental) from other than yourselves. They don't have anything for you, but corruption/confusion/hindrance/ruin.

What they wish will distress you OR They wish what distresses you. (not sure which version is grammatically correct but they both seem ok in the context of the verse)

Indeed the hatred from their mouths/discourse has become apparent and what is concealed inside their chests is even greater.

Certainly we made clear for you signs if you use reason.

Thanks everyone.

@Mikebloke
wsalam. I am living in the South East. Can't be more specific because of my (mostly unfounded) paranoia when it comes to online privacy voodoo &

Within a few months of joining this forum I have gone from traditional Sunnism to Quranism and now agnostic atheism/deism. The posts by members of this forum have been invaluable in my journey from faith towards logic. I still consider it possible that there maybe a deity/creative force, but it is non-interacting and there may or may not be any afterlife.

It feels as if a great burden has been lifted off me but a new one has taken its place, which is knowing that my death will probably be the end of my being me. I can't decide which of the two feelings is worse; either i am wrong about religion and I will burn forever in hell for being an unbeliever. Or that this is the only life that I will get to live, I will then cease to exist and there will be nothing after this.

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I think the need for religion came with the evolution of the human mind. At some point during evolution of the mind came self-awareness. What is self-awareness?

Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself repeatedly as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

An extract from wiki

According to Emory Universitys Phileppe Rochat, there are five levels of self-awareness which unfold in early development and six potential prospects ranging from "Level 0" (having no self-awareness) advancing complexity to "Level 5" (explicit self-awareness).

Level 0 Confusion. At this level the individual has a degree of zero self-awareness. This person is unaware of any mirror reflection or the mirror itself. They perceive the mirror as an extension of their environment. Level 0 can also be displayed when an adult frightens themselves in a mirror mistaking their own reflection as another person just for a second.

Level 1 Differentiation. The individual realizes the mirror is able to reflect things. They see that what is in the mirror is different than what is surrounding them. At this level one can differentiate between their own movement in the mirror and the movement of the surrounding environment.

Level 2 Situation. At this point an individual can link the movements on the mirror to what is perceived within their own body. This is the first hint of self-exploration on a projected surface where what is visualized on the mirror is special to the self.

Level 3 Identification. The individual finds out that recognition takes effect. One can now see that whats in the mirror is not another person but it is actually themselves. It is seen when a child refers to them self while looking in the mirror instead of referring to the mirror while referring to themselves. They have now identified self

Level 4 Permanence. Once an individual reaches this level they can identify the self beyond the present mirror imagery. They are able to identify the self in previous pictures looking different or younger. A "permanent self" is now experienced.

Level 5 Self-consciousness or "meta" self-awareness. At this level not only is the self seen from a first person view but its realized that its also seen from a third persons view. They begin to understand they can be in the mind of others. For instance, how they are seen from a public standpoint.

With self-consciousness comes a frightening thought. The realization of the inevitability of your own demise. An organism without self awareness will run from a predator when confronted with the possibility of death. It does not think beyond that moment. As a self-consciousness individual you are confronted by death from a distance in time. There is this primal instinctive fear and it is a very horrible feeling to have, which I can personally attest to.

The way this problem was dealt with was by putting up a sort of mental block and reassuring the consciousness that it will still remain after the body dies and that there is an afterlife. Thus enter religion

The concept of afterlife is the only common thing that every religion in the world has. No religion will ever claim that the consciousness is lost forever because that defeats the purpose of religion. This basic premise is then elaborated upon by many religions, by assigning Gods and Spirits the task of handling the afterlife.

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My journey towards my current understanding started from having problems with Hadith. They were just plain stupid. I then moved to the Qur'an. Out of the religions and holy books in the world only the Qur'an is claimed by its adherents to be able stand up to any sort of scrutiny. But I have been disappointed by it as well.

I will try to take you through the assumptions which has made me arrive at the conclusion that the Qur'an is not divine. These might offend some but I will be unapologetic about it.

Lets assume that the Qur'an is divine. Then either

1. The understanding which we have is the correct one (because God claims that this book is protected and he is the guardian over it). This means that

1.1 God is talking literal

If Qur'an is taken as literal then it is simply a horrible and cruel text, full of unscientific claims like god creating the world in 6 days etc. Every one who has read the Qur'an knows what the literal interpretation is. Jinns, Angels, Virgin birth, Chop hands, lash adulterers, kill apostates, seducing men with free women along with unlimited milk and alcohol in the Jannah, inequality of man and woman, polygamy, story of Moses killing a child because God said so, it goes on. If that is the morality that God of the Qur'an gives then I would rather stay immoral. The literal reading is sufficient to disprove any thing divine in it.

1.2 or God is talking metaphorical

If metaphorical then that is very confusing, as there is a lot of guess work involved. How does a common man understand these metaphors especially as they are intertwined with literal meanings. How do you separate the metaphor from the literal. Do you try to put yourself in Gods place and try to understand what he means. This leads to an apologist view of the Qur'an where you are only defending stuff, you can rarely deduce definite meanings from it. A common man would then need the help of a "scholar" to understand the message which contradicts Qur'an's own advice to steer clear from the "scholars"; the book is self explanatory and clear. The Qur'an then goes on to make mysterious metaphorical claims like the nineteen, the jinns, the Malaika. These are still open to interpretation and no has yet come up with a satisfactory explanation for this. If everyone has their own interpretation based on pre-notions then that defeats the purpose of the book as we have already arrived at those conclusions. The book is just a tool to provide credibility to our conclusions.

Also a metaphor is used when emphasizing a point. A whole book is never full of metaphors. It then changes from the book of God to a book of fairy tales. I am sure meanings can be derived from the metaphorical stories of the boy who cried wolf, the wolf and sour grapes etc, but these surely cant be presented as divine guidance.

2. Or the understanding which we have is the wrong one This leads to

2.1 God does not want every person to receive the real understanding of his message

This is an absurd statement which I think does'nt warrant any discussion. Because this would mean that he made it intentionally difficult and confusing. If God does not wish everyone to receive his message, why pick and choose who to send it to or even send any message at all. Humans could have and occasionally have come up with a similar understanding without any divine revelation. Are the stories of elves and fairies any different from Jinns and Malaika. Why does God want to confuse when he himself say that he wants every thing to be clear. It does not suit an all encompassing entity to be so petty.

2.2 Or He wants everyone to receive his correct message.

If God wanted to send his message to humankind why did it stop with Muhammad. There should have been more prophets especially now that the message has been lost, distorted and people are killed over its interpretations. Why were there so many prophets in the same family in the olden days but none are coming now when they are needed as much as before. Is this because in those days delusions were considered divine? while in modern times they are seen fit for a mental institution?

I would like to use a metaphor of my own here

If it looks like a duck, and it swims like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

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Other random thoughts.

1. The biggest problem for an non-believer (read atheist/agnostic) is existentialism and uncertainty about afterlife if there is any. So what does the Qur'anic God do to help him? He offers free alcohol, milk and unlimited women in the afterlife as a reward for believing in him.

2. Why would a just God give daughters, mothers and sisters half the inheritance of male counterparts? OK you can argue that males are supporters. But why is a woman's testimony half of a mans? Polygamy? A 'Fahash' woman should be locked up for life but two Fahash men can be forgiven if they repent?

3. Why is there not a single statement in the Qur'an that we can point out and say that this is a scientific fact that no one knew at the time. In fact it is the other way around. There are scientific mistakes compatible with the level of scientific understanding of the 6th century. But these are conveniently explained away as being metaphors

4. Also the main theme and purpose of the Qur'an does not seem to be making humanity good and just. This is just a sideshow. The main theme running throughout is the jealousy of God for people having other gods besides him. This is just logically fallacious. Its a case of my God is better that yours when in fact everyone is talking about the same invisible deity but in a different way. Then god asks us to fight the non-believer, what is that supposed to mean in the whole context of things. What intellectual or physical tools does God provide us to take the fight to the non-believers? This all seems more like a political tool for using a certain God as a sort of identifier for tribalism.

5. People claim that the poetry of the Qur'an is a miracle. It simply is not. It may be great poetry and prose in some parts, but it is not "divine great" poetry. There are comparable and even better poets in Persian and Urdu who use even more amazing linguistics expressions, tricks, multiple meanings and metaphors.

6. If you look from a neutral point of view. The Qur'an is not all that. If you take away blind faith in its divinity then there is nothing special that it offers which can't be found elsewhere.

7. Abraham has sons Ismael and Isaac, grandson Yaqub, great grandson Yusuf. Musa and Harun brothers. Dawood has son Suleiman. Ilyas has son Al-yasa. Zakariya had son Yahya. Whats the deal about having all these prophets in one family. Raises many suspicions. Why such generosity with prophets in those days and so much penny-pinching in modern times? Only two prophets in the last 2000 years?

8. Why are all events mentioned in the Qur'an related to the same area in the Middle East when we know that humankind was spread out over a much larger area. What about people of other nations. Hindus, Persians, Chinese? Why did they not receive any modern prophets? Surely the Hindus were worse in paganism than the Arabs? The used to burn alive widows and kill female infants just like the pagans. Some still do now. Why no messengers for them?

I am struggling to understand the last two words of Sura Baqarah 258 ?

wa qooloo hittatun naghfir lakum khatayakum wa sanazeedu al muhsineen
(and) (say) (Repentance) (We will forgive) (for you) (your mistakes) (and) (will increase) (the) (good-doers)

Word-by-word this translates to an increase in the number of Muhsineen. All translations mention in brackets that the increase means an increase in portions or rewards even though there is no link to rewards or portions in the context of the verse. In that case it should have something like been

sanazeedu ni'mata lil muhsineen
(will increase) (favours/any other word signifying reward) for good-doers

or

sanazeedu ila ? al-muhsineen
(will increase) for/preposition the good-doers

Does anyone have any clues? What does God mean by an increase in the number of Muhsineen?

Salams Everyone,

I was born in Pakistan in a relatively conservative Sunni household. During my time in Pakistan I met a lot of peers, scholars, muftis etc you name it. Also spent some time on the road with the Tableeghi Jamaat. I have been deeply involved with and seen from up close the traditional religious setup over there. I moved to the UK in my twenties and have been living here since then. I am now married and a proud father of two beautiful kids.

I have always believed that there is something missing in the traditional understanding of the religion. But I have mostly kept these thoughts to myself as discussing these in the open can easily get you killed no matter which part of the world you live in.

The only place left to discuss and look for answers is the internet, which led me to discover this forum. On some other forums you are quickly shouted down and bullied if you want to clear your doubts about any traditional teachings but here people can talk like rational adults.

I am here to learn, as part of my journey towards the truth, so please be patient with my ignorance.

Peace on you