I came across this thread by chance while doing a search via Google. According to the Quran, the plural form YaTaMa is masculine, since the unambiguous pronouns referring to them are masculine.

2220 (laHUM)
42 (amwalaHUM)
46 (balaU)

Peace,
Edip

If hajj is debate, then why do we need to shave our heads for just a debate???

I have not been here since few years... I came accross this discussion by chance.

Here is my brief answer

Hajj is annual conference where peacemakers discuss social, political and economic issues among themselves. Participants should be groomed. Long hair and beard might be difficult to clean and might create lice, etc problem... The instructions and prohibitions during hajj conference have good reasons RELEVANT to the event.

Peace,
Edip

Thanks Sushi for sharing the link.

Fallen Angel, although the article provides some of the main arguments, it is a little out of date.

The latest arguments showing that muslim=peacemaker can be found in the following Arabic book
www.quran4peace.org

I think that even Edip Yuskel who had founded the Submitters sect with Rashad Khalifa has changed his mind and now believe that the word means peacemaker.

Peace,

Ayman

First my last name is Yuksel.

At a time when I was considering the "peacemaker" as the primary meaning of the word, I read your article, which contained good arguments. I thank you for that, Ayman.

Peace,
Edip

StopS

What is your definition of definition? What does Stop mean? What does mean mean? What is the weight of an average redherring?

Peace,
Edip

From the introduction of the Quran a Reformist Translation

Can One Marry Underage Orphans?

A passage of the Quran has persistently been interpreted as sanctioning marriage to young orphan girls

Disputed passage The traditional rendering suggests that the objects of marital intention are the orphans, not the mothers.

Yusuf Ali

?They ask thy instruction concerning the women say Allah doth instruct you about them And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.? (4127)

Pickthall

They consult thee concerning women. Say Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you (giveth decree), concerning female orphans and those unto whom ye give not that which is ordained for them though ye desire to marry them, and (concerning) the weak among children, and that ye should deal justly with orphans. Whatever good ye do, lo! Allah is ever Aware of it. (4127)

Shakir

And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it. (4127)

Reformist

They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, ?God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the rights of orphans whose mothers you want to marry without giving them their legal rights. You shall observe the rights of helpless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it. (4127)

DISCUSSION OF 4127

Though the Quran permits polygamy for men (43), it severely discourages its actual practice by requiring certain significant preconditions men may marry more than one wife only if the later ones are widows with children, and they should treat each wife equally and fairly. (See 419-20; 127-129.). Unfortunately, verse 4127 has been traditionally misinterpreted and mistranslated in such a way as to suggest that God permits marriage with juvenile orphans. This is clearly not the case.

The Arabic expression yatama-l nisai-l lati in 4127 has been routinely mistranslated as ?women orphans, whom?? The expression is also sometimes translated as ?orphans of women whom?? This later translation, though accurate, makes the crucial reference of the objective pronoun ?whom? ambiguous Does the phrase after ?whom? describe orphans or women?

As it happens, the Arabic plural pronoun in this verse is the female form, allaty (not the male form allazyna), and it can only refer to the women just referenced, not to the orphans. This is because the Arabic word yatama (orphans) is male in gender!

All the English translations of the Quran that we have seen have mistranslated this passage. This is remarkable, because correct translation requires only an elementary knowledge of Arabic grammar. This error is thus much more than a simple grammatical slip; it is, we would argue, willful misrepresentation. The traditional interpretation of this passage offers an apparent justification for marriage with children, which flatly contradicts the Quran.

Like so many passages in the Quran, 4127s meaning was severely distorted in order to gain the favor of rich, dominant males. Over the centuries, male scholars with active libidos have used fabricated hadith to pervert the meaning of this and other Quranic verses relating to marriage and sexuality. (See the discussion of 665, below.)

salaam Edip,

Can you give a summary of the view in the video here, or is it the same as Reformist Quran Translation?

Thanks.

Yes, the same Wakas.

I was interested in reading your article on Masjid al-Haram. But I am currently very busy. Can you please send me its word or pdf version?

Peace,
Edip

Dear Aabdul

Tough the makers of this documentary used my work liberally and though they consulted me frequently, they produced it independently of me and I do not agree with some of the statement in documentary. I would not include the long numbers about al-Fatiha for instance.

I agree with you regarding the problem with such a statement, excluding many others. There were in the past, starting with Muhammad and his close companions who followed the Quran alone. Thus, none of them wrote or compiled hadith books. There were many afterwards, such as Abu Hanifa, Mutazila etc... I am aware of the great work and contribution of Allama Parwez...

On the other hand, I do believe that the discovery of the code 19 made the argument of those who reject hadith much stronger, since we do not need to rely on the trustworthiness of the previous generations for the perfect preservation of the Quran. Besides, it explains many structural features and meaning of many idiosyncratic phrases in the Quran. Furthermore, Rashad's argument for the rejection of hadith in Quran, Hadith and Islam is the strongest argument in the record.

Peace,
Edip

Dear Magnus,

Those who have witnessed the miracle are very few, yet those who cannot witness it are in hundreds of mililons.. And 99.9999 of them reject it without even reading anything about it...

So, I cannot keep up with everyone like you by writing sepcial answers for the same old questions. Your question is not new and I have responded them so many times that I have decided not to waste my time for those who prefer to reject and mock the great sign without bothering to read a book or even an article about it. Besides, knowing that you have very little knowledge about the issue (I can tell from your question) even if I answer your question convincingly, you will come up with many more... And I will end up spenidng AGAIN months repeating myself...

So, if you are an honest researcher of truth, then send [email protected] an EMAIL via your GMAIL account and ask me to send you the PDF version of NINETEEN God's Signature in Nature and Scripture. And also the book, Running Like Zebras.

My answers and refutations to this and many more questions, criticism and excuses are there.

PS Your accusation is not warranted. You can hardly find a writer, professor who is so out there discussing the issues and responding everyone as much as he could afford...

I have had debated this issue in detail on this very forum with someone who had studied this issue much deeper than you. It took several months and I have included those debates in the book, Running Like Zebras.

After reading that book, you will notice that the reason that I am not responding you is simple I have already responded them hundreds of times and I am tired of repeating myself for those who show the audacity to reject and mock a theory without any knowledge and research. (I do not mean you, since I do not know your circumstances)

Peace,
Edip

Finally, the documentary film is posted at youtube. The number 19 which remained a secret in chapter 74 (The Hidden) for 19x74 lunar years until it was unveiled by God in year 1974 to a monotheist scientist! It brought explanations to many verses and secrets of the Quran. Furthermore, it exposed the so-called muslims who have betrayed the only book delivered by Muhammad and their God-given brains by adhering the satanic teachings called hadith and sunna and sectarian jurisprudence. It proved the Quran's divine origin and its perfect preservation. It is "one of the greatest" that will distinguish the "progressive ones" from the "regressive ones" that will remove doubts in the heart of those who seek the truth and people of the book, and will disturb the ingrates and hypocrites who will not be able to witness the miracle; they will escape from it like zebras. (See www.19.org for details)

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2myxJRz58Q

Look at this and then think again.

http//19.org/534/constitution/

Peace,
Edip

Send me an email via your gmail.com address and ask me for the PDF verison of my book on Nineteen.

Peace,
Edip

Yeah... Please write more fable, legend, fantasy, folktale, all sorts of stories ... You are very talented.. Wow. You are super ))

We all like stories; it is better than reading and learning facts. Learning facts is not easy. It also burdens us with the duty to accept it and stand for it. It is very difficult to accept a fact when the majority of people love stories and believe in stories.

So, please write more stories for us... Especially the ones that distorts the facts, the ones that fool the infantalized readers. People love stories.. They are brought up with stories since their baby years. Please do not forget to add some lullabies too... Much better than dealing with numbers!

It is ironic that the Quran likens those who demonstrate allergy to the "one of the greatest" signs to donkeys. The donkey in the story is "projection" )

Peace,
Edip

For those who are interested,

If you send me an EMAIL via YOUR GMAIL account and ask me Runing Like Zebras, I will allow you access to my GMAIL DRIVE where you can download the book for FREE.

The book contains my debate with Ayman and many other critics and skeptics, including Abdul Rahman Lomax, Bilal Phillips, Car Sagan and several other ingrates.

If you are interested in the paperback version, you may order it at

http//www.amazon.com/19-NINETEEN-Signature-Nature-Scripture/dp/0979671590/

Some information about the subject

http//19.org/category/yuksel/19-gods-signature-in-nature-and-scripture/

Magnus, your story is just a story, a literary piece, with no philosophical merit. Besides, it distorts the facts, since 19 is mentioned in the Quran and all the major elements of the Quran (oasis in your example), including the letter/number combinations starting chapters, the first and the most frequent verse of the Quran, the number of chapters, etc are all based on the number 19. Besides its perfect integration of math (the divine language in universe) with human language, it is also an incredible prophecy... In other words, it is you who is confusing real oasis with mirage.

Your fancy words and scenario might impress some people who have problem with critical thinking, who wish to find an excuse, any excuse to escape from "one of the greatest signs" like a zebra, but those who are aware of the fact that "extra-ordinary claims need extra ordinary evidences" will just smile at your fancy.

For those who wish to read some articles on this issue, please visit

http//19.org/category/yuksel/19-gods-signature-in-nature-and-scripture/

Edip, do you believe a muslim has to believe in code 19 to be a proper Muslim and achieve salvation?

"Believe"? It has nothing to do with believing...

What about reading some of the articles here, as a starter?

http//19.org/category/yuksel/19-gods-signature-in-nature-and-scripture/

Peace,
Edip

That is one fancy-looking trailer, very professional!
However, a pig with lipstick applied to its snout is still a pig, just like numerology fancily dressed up with computer graphics still is not science, nor miraculous.

The Quran has prophetically described people like you very well in chapter 74. So, we know you very well.. Your fear and anger is well-understood by us.

Is Edip following this Ayat while inviting people to draw NEGATIVE IMAGES OF PROPHET peace is upon him? What message he is trying to get across and how?
Yeah that's ok buddy.

Thanks for the reminder... I am going to correct that part. I agree with you that such an invitation is not appropriate and I would never publish such disparaging cartoons, especially against any prophet or messenger of God. Knowing that many islamophobes, warmongers and provocateurs have already published many ugly cartoons based on hadith stories, I deleted that paragraph from the terms of the competition.

I know it is hard to understand for the people who have closed their eyes and ears well let us just see

Zulf Your father was a Bastard! do you agree?

First of all, there is an important difference between idiots insulting someone else or their relatives, and insulting to God.

God himself does not want idiots to defend (more accurately, pretend to defend) God against other idiots in the mud.. God wants intelligent people to leave the presence of lowly people. That is it. None can harm God nor can harm dead people.

But, when an idiot insults another living human being, it is another story. It is up to the insulted human being to ignore the idiot or file law suit against the above-mentioned idiot, if he is harmed financially or personally as the direct consequence of such an insult.

My recommendation to Zulf is this Please ignore idiots of all colors and religions, and let them drawn in the filth coming from their mouth.

Peace,
Edip

No. Yousef Estes Just like zakir naik don't debate serious debaters like Edip. That would make them loose "customers" .

I firmly believe that... Not because I am smarter than them nor because I more fluent than them. Because by God's blessing I have discovered the message of monotheism... It is a powerful message. A liberating, unifying, enlightening, humbling, empowering and nourishing both the minds and hearts...

I would be glad to meet any of these two Sunni scholars... These names have been suggested numerous times by people... But, they have not responded to my invitation, so far. What about starting an Internet campaign, petition to invite us for such a debate? I think it might be very useful for the masses to hear the both sides at the same time and place.

Peace,
Edip

True.

The 'crowd' and 'mob' has never shown great wisdom, thought or intelligence throughout history. They've always been controlled by emotion and chaotic dynamic patterns.

And also, Edip is NOT having intentions of instigating violence. He is not out there to insult the prophet (who is anyway dead and cannot be insulted). He is asking for POSITIVE cartoons, not ridiculing ones. That's hell of a difference. The difference lies in the intent. Edip's intention is good. I believe he aims to

1. Lessen the level of taboo that surrounds the cartoons, and thereby, over time, disarm the sheepish, insane and emotional tendencies to misdirected and unjustified violence.
2. By taking the edge off the cartoon taboo... he is taking away power from those who indeed use cartoons in a ridiculing way.
3. Indirectly expose the madness of hadith and show the world that there is more to islam and quran than what people think. That is, to give people a chance to find out about real islam.

There will always be resistance to change. Always. It stems from fear. But change is life and life is change. No change means death. One can never advance and develop by resisting change. When you move forward to grow, you will have to move through your current states. It cannot be avoided. Avoiding cartoons will just mean that we accept the current situation, and accept that it should not change. Truth and the exposure of falsehood will not be realized through fear and avoidance of change.

Edip's work is commendable, no matter the details of his understanding. In my opinion there should be more people having a spirit like that of Edip's. He's doing a wonderful job in promoting the truth and exposing old, stagnant and mad things in religion.

Cheers

Dear Zulf

You have perfectly summarized my intention, better than I could express it. Thank you.. Can you please send me the above message via email and let me know whether you mind if I qoute a portion of it all or of it? Whether should I use your real name or full name... I want to add this to the end of the article...

Peace,
Edip