I see..I just saw your post in the thread that you are American by birth , anyway I hope you see the real face of them behind the mask.
I am, by citizenship but not by birth. It's funny because I can imagine it happening, haven gone to many camaat meetings I know how they are.
Selam Anita,
welcome to forum firstly, it was nice to read your story, hope future will bring you happiness and peace in your journey of being a good muslim. peace
I think in that verse the verb "sacada" refers to "accepting one's upper hand" , not necessarily means physically prostrate, bow down or submit, once said "accepted", "sacada" is performed.
In another verse 375;
?He said O Satan, what prevented you from yielding to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted??
Here "sacada" is used like the opposite of "arrogance", imo emphasis is on not something physical but rather refers to something allegorical...
Hey aynur,
I guess you are also Turkish as your name/nick says so , but what's so funny about this? Have you had similar experiences with feto's community?
rotfl
;D
the following is my proposal (special design for edip yuksel) ;D
http//img.webme.com/pic/7/77depo/untitled.bmp
Yeah sure, American flag with the colors of GS laugh
Male/ Female Male
Age 35
Nationality Turk
Parents background ( if different from nationality) both Turk
Born as a Muslim? ( in a muslim family) Yes but not religious
Level of education M.S
Are you from a city or from the country? city
How did you first come to learn about Quranism ( for a lack of a better word) ? Actually I was like everyone in my society at the beginning, had standard knowledge of Islam, for a while tried to be brainwashed by Gulen supporters, thank God, got rid of them, after then I became only Quran follower but still non practicising. By the way I do not like terms like Quranism and Quranist )
And at what age? 28
Do you personaly know fellow Quranist or are you alone with your view in your social network? alone
Do you primarily reject Hadith on the basis of authority or authenticity? yes both
Selam fbahadir,
man kana yureedu alhayata alddunya wazeenataha nuwaffi ilayhim aAAmalahum feeha wahum feeha la yubkhasoona
1115 Who was/is wanting the life the present/worldly life and its decoration/beauty/ornament, We fulfill/complete to them their deeds in it, and they in it are not being reduced/cheated/caused injustice to.
Also the same usage in verses 1828; 2860; 3328
As to verse 2431 think of breast feeding a baby; OK in front of those persons mentioned.
Thanks Nun de plume, this makes sense )
Salaam Tanweer
I understand "zeenatuhunna" as psrts of the body specific to women, and hair, accordingly, not included. So, if we consider that "private parts" are specific to women ;D .....then we can have this understanding.
Selam Samia
If that is the case, can women show their special parts of body to her male servants who are needless? For example can women show their breasts to male servants who are needless or to ?ma malakat ayman? or to their brothers etc?Because Allah says ?illa? means women can reveal to them.Today how many women(also men) show their special parts of body to whom are listed in the verse except their husband or say doctors(lets say male servants who are needless but you can also take many men into these category)? I am not good at Arabic but i think there is a misconception here. Maybe ?zeenatuhunna? can be bosom of their clothing which can make parts of women?s breasts seen. Im not sure and Allah knows best.
Can anyone explain it please? Hows "zeenatuhunna" used in other verses?
"Muhammad spread religion by way of the sword and Jesus spread religion by way of peace".
simply it was not the sword that spread the word, it was the word that spread the sword... peace
Selam,
I have read an interesting interpretation of 17/1 and I want to share it to you.
It says Mescid-i Aksa was a masjeed near Cirane near Mekke because at that time there was not a temple called Mescid-i Aksa in Jerusalem and the report that Mescid-i Aksa had been near Cirane said and recorded by Vakdi and Ezraki. And says prophet Muhammed travelled between these to masjeeds Mescid-i Haram and Mescid-i Aksa in his vision(dream), also adds the verse 17/1 is an evangel of Hajj and an exam for the followers of prophet.
To strengthen this claim, it points out two verses of Kur?an ;
Other verses of Kur?an about the event of Isra;
?Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger. ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.?(48/27)
?Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,- as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran We put fear (and warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!?(17/60)
And says if these infos are combined and approached logically, that time prophet Muhammed and his followers could not approach to Mescid-i Haram(Mekke) because it was on the land of enemies and Explains; ?They temporarily chose a new masjeed around Cirane near Mekke which was recorded by some scholars namely Mescid-i Aksa but all their desire was Mescid-i Haram in Mekke. Prophet Muhammed travelled spiritually(not bodily) in his vision between these two masjeeds, he saw the verses, the proof of Hajj and tavaf, he announced good news to his followers that they would do Hajj in future and this became an exam for his followers to believe or not to believe and then this vision became real when the time came. The event of Isra occurred as a sign of Hajj and tavaf that would be real soon, not for the prophet to see Allah. Besides Kur?an does not mention anything about Mirac. However we realized that this verse which was shown namely the proof of Allah and is nothing but an evangel of Hajj and tavaf mentioned in 48/27, and this vision is an exam for the followers of Muhammed mentioned in 17/60. Allah knows the best?
95%?????????????????????
Incorrect. Turkey's population is around the 70 million mark. There are 20-30 million Alevi Turks, Alevi's are Shiite.
Selam
You are also incorrect, 99% of pupulation in T?rkiye are muslims, and when you look at sects that you can see 82% of them are sunni muslims, and %5.73 of them are Alevi-Shiite. When you estimate from these percentages, you can find a population of maximum 5 million Alevi-Shiite in T?rkiye not 20 million.
What are the special conditions of Turkey that its version of secularism needs to do away with religion??
The answer is above your post. There are always sheiks, religous leaders to benefit from religion and change to regime into a slamic republic and Sheriah.
Well shouldn't people have the right to have these, to do all that you've said if they choose to????? In Turkey you aren't given this right, you aren't given at all the right to practice your religious beliefs in the public domain. All this are choices for people to make, not the state.
But people do not choose them and protest who uses religion to deceive people in all over the country nowadays. Besides there is an unchangable law in Turkish constitution that mentions ?Republic of T?rkiye is democratic secular republic?. And one of Turkish Army?s duty is to protect these laws and this right given to army also with laws. Turkish army and the people of T?rkiye are the founders of Republic of T?rkiye. Suppose people have choice of this and changed the republic into sheriah and now then you will ask this question ?what will happen to people who wants to work in public but not believe in sheria??. Because there is not a middle way, people are far away from Kur?an, so secularity is suitable for T?rkiye.
Besides I can't believe you're trying to draw comparisons, civil liberties between the US and Turkey seriously can't even be compared!! You won't go to prison and you can't be charged for holding unAmerican views or "insulting" America , but in Turkey you can be charged for "insulting Turkishness". Your Nobel Prize winner Orhan Pamuk highlighted to the entire world the serious lack of freedom of speech and thought within your Republic, all under the guise of keeping your secular state.
You first compared US and T?rkiye so i chose an example like that. And the subject of Orhan Pamuk, he is not only insulted to Turkish identity but blamed the whole nation of made a holocaust but he acquittaned because of freedom of speech, see how democratic T?rkiye is and what do you think about the law(To say there is no Armenian holocaust, is a guilt) that French government accepted? Is it democratic? Now in T?rkiye there are peoples who does not recognize Turkish flag, Turkish identity, Turkish republic also in Parliament or governor of a city and they are free to speak and nothing happens to them, so you see how democratic T?rkiye and cannot be compared to other democratic republics, even T?rkiye exaggerated demoraticness
LET PEOPLE DECIDE for themselves!!!!
Yeah LET PEOPLE DECIDE, and because of this they are marching.
I'd be angry as hell if my state tells me what I can or cannot wear! But that's exactly what's happening in Turkey.
Every state or even every company and firm has its own rules about wearing, and you should have to follow those rules, there is nowhere infinite freedom.
How can you say Turkish secularism does not restrict peoples beliefs? If someones belief is in wearing the Hijab, she's immediately excluded from University/School!! She has no further avenues in the country and is left with the only options of not getting an education or going abroad for studies, America, another secular state doesn't find her wearing a hijab a University a problem, wouldn't even blink, but her native Turkey does because of its version of secularism!! I might not necessarily believe in the hijab but I believe in a persons fundamental right to choose as she fits, a persons rights and liberties.
I gave answer to this question above. You have to follow the rules if you want to obtain rights. If you are a citizen of a country, dont you follow the rules of that country? What do you think about England, the Netherlands or Human Rights Supreme Court of Europe that forbid Hijab or headscarf? Also as i mentioned before there is not a such problem until radical extremists began to use as a political sign, students can go university with headscarfs and people respect them(now people also respect) but now they cant(or they use peruke or they take out headscarf during the lesson and wear when they go outside) because of radical extremists.
Why can't the state let the Turks decide by giving them the freedom? Is wearing a hijab at university as an example such a great threat to your republic?
Wearing Hijab is not problem but the mentality behind is a great threat to Turkish Republic. I think your mind locked at headscarf.
My thoughts on this...
When we talk about secularism, what type of secularism are we talking about here? The Turkish type of secularism seeks to do away with religion, the banning of head scarves in Universities for example. The American version of secularism, guarantees personal liberties foremost, wearing a hijab to university is a personal liberty guaranteed by America's version of secularism, it allows one to practice whatever one wants, there are no limitations to ones practice of religion, whilst in Turkey, the government imposes restrictions on such liberties and practices, you can't be overtly religious in the eyes of Turkish secularism, it tries to do away with religion in the guise for modernity, it seems to be Islamic is not to be modern. Perhaps that's why to me, the proponents of Turkish secularism seem to have a very anti-Western stance and rhetoric, blame the EU, blame the US, I doubt they value Western style civil liberties as much, infact hasn't the Army threatened to government with a coup to "protect" Secularism.
Your comparison between USA and T?rkiye is hilarious. Every counrty has its special conditions. 95% of population in T?rkiye is sunni muslim. And everyone is free in own beliefs and free to practice own religion. Only in public(state) services religous icons, applications are forbidden. So lets see what happens if people of T?rkiye begin to apply own personal beliefs to the public services. For example in T?rkiye the classes of all schools seperated into boys class and girls class, each have its class. Or for example in T?rkiye a woman working in tax office rejects to talk to a man and rejects to do the job of a man because of her beliefs or vice versa,or a male doctor who doesnt want to look after female patient because of his beliefs, or a female diplomat who does not want to shake hand with foreign male diplomat,etc. If one?s personal liberty restricts others personal liberty in public, what will you do? Do you see such examples in USA?s secularism? Let me ask you a question, for instance a conservative christian is a teacher in high school in USA, but she/he does not want students who have different religions, in her/his class, will USA government give rights her due to her/his personal liberty?
There is no headscarf problem in T?rkiye through the history of Republic till 1990?s. Do you think people in T?rkiye did not wear headscarf before 1990?s? When it is begun to use as a political sign then problem occurs and arises.
So Turkish secularism does not restrict people?s belief, everyone is free to practice own belief until it does not restrict others belief.
Peace be upon you too.
Why would god send down the laws in Quran if He wouldn't mind us following the secular law? The punishments described in the Quran for crimes, the laws concerning the testimony, inhertience, etc are there to be followed. You can make Islam a personal religion like christianity or hinduism. Islam is a way of life on both individual and collective planes. You are misguided if you think that the western law and way of life is superior to the islamic law and way of life. Islamic laws are far superior to today's western laws.
What happened in Turkey was a mockery of democracy and people of Turkey. The evil military generals will pay for their anti-islamic policies. People of Turkey have waken up and nothing can put theam back to sleep. The brave sons and daughters of Mehmed II will conquer Constantinople for a second time this time politically. That day is not far.
Selam
First of all sorry for my English,i am new to this forum but i have been following for about a few months...I want to reply to this post.
I think you do not know anything about T?rkiye and interpret like this. In T?rkiye todays government seen to be Islamic but they are hypocrite, and people?s marching is because of this. 4 million people marched in stanbul/?alayan, it is the biggest protest in T?rkiye?s history, yeah people in T?rkiye has waken up. This government is puppets of USA and EU, and people hate this. Do you know how they became government? Let me tell you, USA supported them to become government in order to realize their plan about moderate Islam by buying big medias in T?rkiye.Today?s government(AKP) in T?rkiye used religion to collect vote, they deceived people with God. To see how muslim they are a few examples are enough;
They say ?we will solve the problem of turban(headscarf)?
On the other hand although they have the majority of Parliament, they had no attempt about this, they only talk(exploitation continues).
They say ?we will lay the foundation of Taksim mosque, inallah?
On the other hand they gave permission to opening of first Turkish church
He says ?Mosques are our barracks, minarets are our bayonets, m?mins are our soldiers?
On the other hand he destroyed the Kur?an course which he educated.
They say ?All schools will be changed into mam Hatips?
On the other hand they opened Armenian church.
He says ?I am the Imam of stanbul?
On the other hand he says ? if needed i can also wear priest cloth for my party?(maallah we have got priest Imam at last)
He called and celebrated elif afak who insulted to turkish idendity because of her acquittal
On the other hand he did not even call martyr?s family
He outlawed the law of adultery
On the other hand he tells he was a student of Imam Hatip, and knows a lot thing about slam.
He says ?Only Imams should marry people officially?
On the other hand he censored Kur?an verses on lesson books, nobody dared to do that for 14 centuries.
He says ?Alcohol should be banned?
On the other hand he made Turkish people to swallow pill with piggy gelatine.(who gave vote, swallowed the pill)
He relaesed PKK terorists from prison by a new law
On the other hand he imprisoned father of a martyr.
Martyrs families arent given martyr salary( because of killers cannot be identified!!)
On the other hand they released Zana(political supporter of PKK in T?rkiye) and her friends, guested them at the foreign affairs domicile
He says ?I am at the side of to open Parliament with prays?
On the other hand he said he would pray for the hero american soldiers(surprisingly(!!) he forgot people of Iraq)
They had also so many defraudations(60 big defraudation files are awaiting), they sold every worthies(all big firms, terrotories, etc) of T?rkiye to the foreigners especially Israelis(bought so many terrotories in south east of T?rkiye known as Israel?s promised terrotories), gave all of the bids to their partners to make them rich. So see these are moderate muslims(some call them new evangelist muslims), their religion is money.
So Do you still think they are muslims, do they follow Kur?an, are they honest?
And you call Turkish Army as an evil, don't you know this is only army who won war against imperialism? Check your words carefully, Turkish people are always proud of their army.
?Many religions see God as a seperate entity... ("He". But in my view this undermines and contradicts the sum of ("His" being.
Part1 From the heart.
?I offer you my perspective to explore and debate?.its my usual speal, its not essential, you can skip this bit if you wish and get straight to the point of the discussion in Part 2 below
Because I trace all my thoughts back to my consciousness, I am of the understanding that this is their source. Because thoughts and consciousness, while in some ways can be attributed correlatively to some brain processes, the actual thoughts themselves as we experience them are incorporeal, they have no form.
If there is no form to the thoughts that we experience, then despite what they describe in their content, their form is discarnate and so there is nothing there to be encapsulated or bound. (i.e. by the brain...the objects to which they refer)
So, the very nature of consciousness must be infinite for only solid objects and form can be divided or bound*. It is my understanding that as consciousness is the source of our thoughts it is also our true nature. As it has no form, it has no limit, no judgment, nothing. I feel that if we can identify with this rather than the contents which our thoughts describe then we experience a Unity of all the multiplicities our thoughts describe which brings peace.
I think that consciousness, the source of our thoughts, the undivisable and un containable by its discarnate nature is God/Self/Dao/Infinity. The Unity of all multiplicities that we experience when we identify with it is also God/Self/Dao/Infinity?Oneness?.God
For if God is infinite, there can not be two infinities, so the infinity of God and the infinity of discarnate consciousness must be one and the same?God.
*if you disagree, what formless existence can be proven to be bound or divided?...actually, what formless existence can be proven other than that of consciousness and the experience of thought?
Part2 My question, as translated for two perspectives to consider.
A perspective for some Athiests
If you do not believe there is a God, but you believe in Infinity(in a scientific kind of theories of time and the Universe sense)?if there is infinity how can you see yourself as separate from it, as infinity is undivisable. If theoretically (but not perceptively because that is a very difficult stand point to experience) we are all contained by the un containable?then we are the sum of this?if we are the sum of this?surely it is the ultimate?the reason for existence for it is the un containable container for everything?could this not be what is meant by God?...And if God is infinite, then, again?this must be the nature of all, including humanity.
A perspective for the religious
If God is infinite*(1), created the world...from Himself*(2) ? Then how can anything in this Universe, not be God?
What else could he have created it from if he did not create it from the infinity of himself?
1If He is not infinite?what else could He have created the Universe from?
2If He did not create it from Himself, then what did He create it from? How is this possible if He is infinite*(3) and therefore is everything?
3If He is not infinite then see 1?
Selam
While I was surfing on forums, I came across this interesting post above. Above post shortly claims human nature as God or part of God. This took me to ponder on the attributions of God. So that for example if we say God is love like in Christian theology, then we come up with a contradiction like love begin to come before God. If we accede all the best names/attributions belong to God on solely theological basis, then commands of God is right and good unconditionally. Rightness and goodness exist independent of God?s command. And this time we again encounter with a contradiction such as attributions/names of God with regard to substance, come before God. Then people begin to worship love or any attribution of God(or human nature like above post) not God.
And here is my opinion, Names/attributions of God is what He created(like our nature), He created ?goodness, rightness, love, justice etc? and we named them like that. Names/attributions of God are not the names exist with Him, and does not belong to His substance/essence.
I know this thread slides much to philosophy(as i am also not good at philosophy), and I do not want to confuse or disturb anybody but I wonder how people here think about this, any opinions, comment are welcomed?
Thanks for reading.