Peace
I think the opposite would have followed.
If Adam (and Eve) did not disobey, we would not have come into existence...
It is their sin (and casting out from the garden)
who brought us about (humanity) ... all part of the divine plan of course...

I believe it poses a problem if adam is a single human. Why should we all be punished for one mans disobedience. This goes against the quranic message of no soul shall carry another souls burden. This isn't my primary reason for believing adam is mankind but something worth pondering over if you believe adam is a proper noun.

PEACE

Peace
What you used is also a first name, so in some context is not foul (it depends on one's mental creativity - Dick Cheney pops to mind)
What Ayman used is a scientific word, but I never heard someone called by that name... (however, there was a feminist play that had a lot of success called the v***inal monologues ) )

By the way, does anyone here think "dick" is foul language? If it is so, ayman's "vagina" (his word of course laugh) falls in the same category, no offense to ayman.

Peace.

Peace
It is more complicated here with RK.
In his case it was a catch-22 situation.
I personally could have accepted code 19 if it were not that it it does not comply
with what I would recognize as strong digital signatures.
The attempt of RK to justify his credentials by claiming to be a Messenger made me switch off completely...
Code 19 is weak.
If there is another more credible numbering system, I am all ears...

Now referring to the arrangement of the Quran, I was speaking of the fact that the Revelations' chronology did not come in the same
order as the Book was put together, and that maybe is what "kitaab marqoom" means, but Allah knows...

Peace
But it is numbered into Chapters/Surahs and Verses/Ayahs put into specific order.
This is the end product we got, and that is what it says of Itself (as per Allah), is it not enough?
Or do we need also a code 19 on top of that? There is no mention of a code number being used to protect it, 19 or other...

Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 055216 PM
If influence of RK was not dominant what was there to suggest "Qur'aan is a numerically structured book-839,20"?

What relation does this have with the Grand Qur'aan to infer "Qur'aan is a numerically structured book" except that RK is whispering.

Books are numbered into chapters, paragraphs, page numbers etc but never some one has said that those books are numerically structured. Let the translator give logic/explanation of that conclusion about Grand Qur'aan.

Peace Bros
looks like satan the cursed is tickling your egos a bit,
just shrug him off like Allah showed us, his scheming is weak to the believers...
it will only be hard for the next 100 years for us, promise...

peace Layth,

So spewing venom and hatred is saying things like "MG translation was based on RK" and providing a way for people to verify/reject my statement?

So I have not been supportive of this project? Tell the forum Layth

who proof read half of it for you when you completed the first draft?
who spent many hours creating an easier to use html version for people to use offline?
who provided numerous corrections for you over several years? (for reference please see this the original thread)
who responded and provided feedback on layout and design of the book?
etc.

It seems you have taken offence to the words "based on". Since this term is not defined, we can ask some clarifying questions, so we can define it better

which English translation do you consider the early version of the Free-Minds/MG translation to be most like?
(whatever answer you give, we can all examine it to see it stands)

Very simple question bro Layth, let us know your answer.

###############

Haroon, thanks for the input. However, for the record, when I referred to "Aaron", I did not mean you. Myself and bro Aaron proofread more than you, as we were the primaries.

Peace
This is why Kamal Attaturk abolished the arabic script of the ottoman turk in favor of the latin script for the modern turkish
and I guess the computer must be pronouncing it right then, it's the software, dude...

Ask the computer to pronounce it and you will notice how stupid it looks to call it Arabic language in English script.

Peace
But it is numbered into Chapters/Surahs and Verses/Ayahs put into specific order.
This is the end product we got, and that is what it says of Itself (as per Allah), is it not enough?
Or do we need also a code 19 on top of that? There is no mention of a code number being used to protect it, 19 or other...

If influence of RK was not dominant what was there to suggest "Qur'aan is a numerically structured book-839,20"?

What relation does this have with the Grand Qur'aan to infer "Qur'aan is a numerically structured book" except that RK is whispering.

Peace
... and you are perfectly entitled to your viewpoint
but as far as I know, those before Muhammad did not have access to the Quran, which was revealed to Muhammad and those after him...
so unless the Taurah or Injeel say so... and regardless, Allah will not allow Messengers to err while delivering a Message, which is not the case of someone who does research as by definition research uses trial and error...

Peace Idriss,

This is totally false. There is no evidence that the messengers of God don't have to study and do research to reach certain conclusions. I think that everything happens in a certain order, and knowledge doesn't just pop into someone's head; they have to actually think and use reason, to analyze things for themselves. In fact, the Qur'aan instructs them, and everyone else, to study the world around them, so that they (and we) can find the truth of God's word... This is my viewpoint...

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace
Rashad Khalifa if he were a Messenger as he claimed he were, would not have needed to do research to prove anything.
As a Messenger, Allah would have told him what to say, what to do, and how and where.
Messengers are not Scholars, they do not conduct research, they are Leaders of men, by Action, Character, and Purpose...
It is only when they have finished their task, that they retire and can do what Allah pleases for them to do
(example Shuaib visited by Moses in Midian, or Joseph after his task of bringing his family was complete).
Now there is a big if about the possibility of a Messenger coming after Muhammad, I believe there will be one, but not everyone agrees...
but there is an ayah in the Quran that RK used that makes that clear I think..., but he used it for himself...
RK's interpretation of the Quran is one of the first that tried not to rely on Hadith, but in my view, ruling out all Hadith is a mistake...
of course the legal aspect of hadith leaves a lot to be desired, and only the Quran should be taken into account, as this is obvious if the Quran is read with an open heart...
There are some things we are missing that happened between Ali and the other Sahabas, and with the destruction of Baghdad by the Mongols, and the burning of all the Muslim literature of the time, that information might be completely lost, or maybe it isn't, maybe there are some people who bothered to write about the first civil war and what it was all about.
The answer to that will give us many clues about who really Muhammad was, where he came from, to whom was he preaching, who opposed him, and most importantly who helped him...
Another source of information that is neglected is the Ottoman Arabicised Script Literature (I wonder how many still bother to look into these), there might be some interesting writings that were neglected there that will shed some light on early Islamic history salvaged from Uammayads/Abassids dynasties.

Peace and blessings Ayman,

Allow me to wonder, 9128-129 seem two pretty inconspicuous verses.
Surely adding these does not corrupt the Message either way.
Corruption worth talking about would be if ayahs were indeed removed from the original, and accepting that
this did not happen is a leap of faith, this is where Belief comes into force, because after all we need to take
Allah's word for it.
I do because of accepting the Message as really being the Word of Allah, and hopefully being a Believer, but how about others?
Another intriguing thing about belief is when you look at other faiths, for instance many Christians and Jews
will swear that their parts of the Bible constitute the unadulterated and infallible words of God despite the contradictions therein
(we know where these come from).
That explains how the Muslims who cling to Hadith justify their Beliefs too.. and it is very hard to shift such mind frames...
What do you think?

Peace Idriss.III,

I think that you have it the other way around. Khalifa removed the 2 verses as a result of the Hadiths. He merely used numerology to justify this preconception from Hadiths. Had the Hadiths mentioned different verses then he would have applied his numerology to these.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace
The issue of the added two verses puzzles me...
not because there is some maths gizmo trick that proves it should not be there,
but there is indeed hadiths that say it has been added by scribes without witness, and that is very controversial...
even for those who do not accept most hadith as I do;
why did this hadith come about?
not only it involves Ali (Allah blesses his soul), but curiously enough, no Muslim Sect bothered to implement the finding of the hadith, and thus remove the two ayahs?
also what did the Scribes think the gain would be by adding the two ayahs? if they were indeed added at the end of Ch 9?

No. God says that the Qur'aan is preserved in a "master tablet". Obviously this isn't talking about the Qur'aan that we have today, since where would this master tablet be?

This is metaphorical. It's saying that nobody can change the commands of God, since He executes them. It can't be talking about His words, as in the scripture, since the scriptures also confirm that the Torah is the word of God. And 80% of Muslims today would adamantly declare that the Torah has been altered. Isn't this still changing the words of God, even if they're not in the Qur'aan? What makes them any less hypocritical, as liars, than you claim Rashad Khalifa is? If he is a liar, then obviously they are too, right?

Peace
Rashad Khalifa is not a Messenger of Allah.
He did some scholar work which is debatable, he said it was a miracle and used it to prove
that this means he is a messenger.
Messengers validate Allah's Books and implement His Words, by Deeds and with Clarity of Purpose
to save the many, not target the few...
RK's message targets the maths (and white magic) tricks buffs ...
and where is the Message, lost in numbers?...

Allah willing, there will be a Messenger I believe, who will finalize Allah's Deen whom Allah promised His Prophets and the Believers, when, only He knows...

It is one of the most distorted translations.
He thinks that word Khalifa means "representative" which he interprets as "satan,temporary god".It the most stupid interpretation which can be ever produced.

Like this for 741 ,he translates "Al - Mudassir" as "secret code". Again Most non sense distortion .
It is a translation by a deluded person.
Regards

Peace
My knowledge
There is definitely ritual prayer in Islam and which is physical, mandatory, and is to be performed as set times, it is referred in the Koran as Salat.
The number of Salats is an odd number , and can be from 3 upwards... (minimum is fajr, zuhr and isha)...
Each Salat is divided in two in which chapter one of the Koran is to be read while standing followed by genuflections of bowing, then prostrating.
In the Salat you can read Du'a (mental prayer) while in genuflection.
Usually once a day Salat require you do ritual ablution with water or take a shower, if you do not have access to water,
use sand / stone each time before Salat.
Du'a is mental exhortation to Allah and is not compulsory, but is an inner Sign of Eeman (as shows reliance on Allah) and gets you closer to Allah, and can be done anywhere, anytime, same as reading the Koran by heart or from the Book (even though in appropriate places)...
This is what Allah taught me from reading the Koran in Arabic.
May Allah increase us in wisdom.