Where is the proof dear? You are equating masculine with feminine while Qur'an says they are NEVER same. Move with acceptable logic.
Are you serious dear ?
The word Quran doesn't appears in s. 97 or 98. But god gives us signs to understand.
Quran = a clear proof for people, a messenger from God reciting leafs prurifed, In them writtings righteous.
In 2185 the Quran (masculine and singular), a guidance for mankind and clear proofs (feminine and plural)...
I divided it in main textual units according to the principles of structural analysis (or Semitic rhetoric)
Are they same?
These textual units can take several forms, from simple textual units (segment) to more complex textual units (section), as described by Roland Meynet
https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/COMPOSITION-LEVELS.jpg
chrome-extension//efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Levels-and-figures-of-rhetorical-composition-English.pdf
Would it not be better to segment the Chapter into Paragraphs?
I divided it in main textual units according to the principles of structural analysis (or Semitic rhetoric), I aimed to highlight the overall structure of this long surah. It is certain that this requires effort for the reader (but not too much i think). Ideally, the text should be detailed in Arabic, explaining all the levels and their interconnections, as well as the relationships between them (whether adjacent or distant). However, I neither have the time nor the literary talent to do so....And even then, it would need to be paired with Surah 16, with which it forms a duo (also divided into three parts). So, this is a compromise that allows the reader greater freedom for meditation and possibly to redo the work and compare our results.
However, having some knowledge of structural analysis, and practicing it, is definitely an advantage for better understanding the composition of the text.
Logical Organization
Ideas are presented in a structured manner, often following a sequence such as chronological order, cause-and-effect, comparison, or general-to-specific.
Warning The Quran is not primarily structured according to the logical principles of our modern mentality (Greco-Roman heritage). For example, the effect may precede the cause, or the text may combine chronologically distant elements.
"According to this rhetoric (Semitic rhetoric), texts are built on the basis of a complex set of symmetries, at various textual levels. The “rhetorical analysis” is the technique which allows bringing to light the composition of texts according to this rhetoric. It establishes the coherence of texts which, at first sight, seems muddled. It is also the way towards a faithful interpretation of the text. " (M. Cuypers, The Semitic rhetoric in the Koran and a Pharaonic papyrus)
A brief aside about the verse 1 it is a unique one due to its singular rhyme in this surah, and could have been understood as an introduction. However, among other aspects, there is a similar structure between the sub-parts A and A' of part I (a same thematic sequence, each sub-parts are composed of two sub-sections). Additionally, the key term "masjid" frames sub-part A (and linked verse 1 with verses 2-. Part I begins and ends with the mention of signs/āyāt (verse 1 and 59), and the vision at the end of part I refers back to verse 1, clarifying the significance of the night journey. Furthermore, the text starts with the word "sub'ḥāna" (corresponding to the beginning of surah 16, which connects them) and ends with "kabbir'hu takbīran."
I have provided the main structure of this surah, and given you keys elements for a better understanding of this surah. This serves as a foundation for your own meditation, and that is something I cannot do for you. I have spared you a lengthy task by offering the essentials, letting the text speak as best as I could.
However, having knowledge of rhetorical analysis (Semitic rhetoric) and Lund's laws ("Chiasmus in the New Testament. A Study in the Form and Function of Chiastic Structures," Nils W. Lund) would enable you to better understand how the Quranic text is constructed and the conclusions it leads to. I encourage you to explore these concepts if you haven't already before.
But, if you have specific questions or need some precise clarification about the structural analysis of this surah (or others surah), i would be please to answer them.
what does it mean?
l-ghāiṭi 1 - A wide, depressed piece of ground or land -2- Place where one can hide -3- Hence, A place in which one satisfies a want of nature (feces); the custom being to do so in a depressed place at this time (7° century in/around Mekka - not modern toilet). So each one have to clean himself with water (if you found it) after satisfying such a natural need.
Firstly analyse Ayah 171 may be you get it as breaking news and then Sura 53 contains updates.
I don't think so as i explained for sura 53. For Sura 17, see my answer below.
You may find rhetoric element in 171?
Before drawing connections between textual elements from distant surahs, both textually and likely historically, we must analyse the structure of Surah 17 and see what it teaches us; without preconceptions (which is very difficult, hence the need for a rigorous methodology, with a strategy of small steps moving from the lowest level to higher elements). We must also link it with the end of Surah 16, just as the end of Surah 17 is linked to Surah 18.
This is the work I am carrying out during this fast of the lunar month of Ramadan, and I will deliver the analysis here. This work is lengthy because the surah is long and composed of multiple textual units. It is done first of course from the Arabic text, as usual. Then I have to do the literal translation in French and English.
Ideally, but I won't have time to do it yet, would be to understand in which group of surahs this Surah 17 is located. A first glance suggests that a link exists between Surahs 16-17-18-19-20-21; but we will only know this after having finished the complete strucutural analysis of the Quran.
Next stage is to constitute grammatical units on the analogy of codon in a protein gene. That will have syntactic, morphological, and semantic analysis of Semantic Seed (Root), contextual meanings by linear and circular/web reference.
Many tools exists (and yours is one of them) BUT the interpretation of the Qur'anic text lacks one crucial element the literary composition of the Qur'an! By highlighting its textual units and their relationships, within and between suras. Using the tools of rhetorical analysis, this is the main aim of my work on the Quran. The aim to enable deep meditation, contextualised by the Quran itself.
The connection between Sura 53 and Sura 17 is highly speculative, with no basis or evidence for such a link. All Sura 53 says is that the angel Gabriel appeared a second time to confirm his first view. And it says so by saying that it happened just like the first time, here on earth, but in a different place and this time without revelation. This is what the text says, without adding any over-interpretation.
Remember that the arabic term "Mi'rāj" is absent from the Quran.
Great effort - Thanks.
Nice to have -> two additional columns
one to indicate the particular morphological derivate of the root for the verse, with a link to its specific definition(s)
one for your Literal translation in English, as your site is in English, and for those who do not read Arabic, this could be helpful.
Does it make any sense?
Yes, indeed, it makes no sense. It seems that he has a real problem with understanding the word "masjid" in the Qur'an. However, one good point for him in your exchanges, he tries to connect the first verse to passages from the same surah.
On the other hand, concerning you, i think that referring to Surah 53 for understanding verse 1 is too hasty, before having identified the structure and textual composition of this surah.
This detailed study has never been carried out to my knowledge, using the rigorous tools of rhetorical analysis. God willing, I will tackle this during this lunar month of fasting and intense meditation on the Qur'an, and share with the community of this forum the fruit of my efforts.
Hi shukri,
One more question, if you don't mind
How about "isha"
Does it refer to "dusk" or "evening" or "night"?
Unfortunately, it depends! Classic dictionaries state that this form ʿishā (عِشَآء) can have three main meanings (all related to night, however)
Entry of the night or from sunset to darkness of the night (as synonymous of the form ʿashiīī (عَشِىّ))
Night, all night long or the beginning of the darkness of night
Evening prayer
Regarding Prayer, if you understand that the Quran requires five prayers, then you will interpret it as "the beginning of the darkness of night" (cf. Mazhar above).
If you understand that it refers to the period from the beginning of the night until the darkness of night, then it equates to evening twilight only.
If you understand that it refers to the night prayer, then you can translate it as "Evening Prayer", during the first hours of the night.
Hi shukri,
But I wonder if "maghrib" can be literally translated (word for word) as "sunset"!
Between and from my point of view the difference doesn't really matter. It depends of the textual context.
So for i translate as "sunset or setting". It refers to the sun.
and for i prefer "west". It refers more of a direction. "East and West" this phrase is often used poetically or in literary contexts to describe the entire span of the day from sunrise to sunset, or metaphorically to encompass a wide range or expanse.
The East and the West This translates directly into geographical directions.
The Rising and the Setting Sun This emphasises the movement of the sun.
Hi shukri,
As we know the word "maghrib" in the Quran means "west" and it looks very weird to me!
The West or the setting sun are the same thing (when viewed from the Middle East)
It is a time bound protocol. Number and the appointed timings for its performance during a day
https//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg
https//haqeeqat.pk/SalatTimings.htm
Peace Mazhar,
Question 1
you say "dulūki" in means "The verbal noun signifies a state of rubbing and getting away with ease and smoothly. The Sun touches/rubs the horizon and smoothly disappears whereby the night emerges." Then you say "lidulūki l-shamsi" means "the Sunset"
-> a contradiction here? Either it refers to the phase just before sunset or at/after sunset (as your graph shows) but not both.
Questions 2.1 and 2.2
You say "ṣalati l-ʿishāi" in means "the time of first part of night after disappearance of twilight-the darkened night"
-> 2.1 why choose this definition and not this one "the time from sunset to the darkness of the night"
-> 2.2 how do young people who have not reached puberty find out when the prayer of dark night is over and ask permission (baʿdi ṣalati l-ʿishāi)?
Peace all,
Three additional reflection on this textual unit (2183-187)
(1)
As I mentioned in my introductory post, the second part (verses 185-187) has a concentric structure in A/X/A'
A (verse 185) observation -> The Quran is guidance for people ("hudan lilnnāsi"
X (verse 186) God's call for people to respond to this call in order to be guided (falyastajībū lī)
A' (verse 187) Positive response from believers who "seek what God has prescribed for you" (wa-ib'taghū mā kataba l-lahu lakum), particularly during "extended stays in places of worship" (wa-antum ʿākifūna fī l-masājidi)
(2)
I have not translated the word "l-qur'ānu", defining it as a proper noun. However, in this passage, one could translate "l-qur'ānu" as "the Call" (a call par excellence as a discourse in which one addresses the public to exhort them). The use of the word "lyastajībū/let them respond" in confirms this translation. The form X of the triliteral root jīm wāw bā (ج و ب) refers to the idea of "responding favourably to someone", i.e., responding favourably to the divine Call. The Quran is, originally, a verbal message and not a written one. The word Quran, in its 60 occurrences, has the primary meaning of calling above all, the Quran is a Call, a "Cry" to rediscover the meaning of the same root Qara'a in different Semitic languages. The meaning of reading or reciting is derived from the primary meaning, which is vocal, dating from a time when the voice "descended from the heavens" did not yet have a scriptural support the Call was then in the process of being constituted.
(3)
The term "maʿdūdātin" in verse in the expression "ayyāman maʿdūdātin" is what is called a plural of paucity (cf. Sibawayhi and the concept of jamu l-qilla (A 'fourth number' in Arabic, the plural of paucity); even if Sibawayhi does not use the specific expression "jamu l-qilla". In short, in archaic Arabic (time of Muhammad), there exists a category of plural nouns that grammarians call jamʿu 'l-qilla ("plural of few". These are the forms afʿāl, afʿul, afʿilatun, fiʿlatun, which in classical language were used only for a number of elements from 3 to 10.
Before the revelation of verse 184, the number of fasting days at the beginning of the stay in Medina must therefore have been between 3 and 10 (3 per month according to the tradition + the fast of Ashura). So, the use of the word "maʿdūdātin" lends credence to this tradition. Then verse 184 was revealed, which extended this number to 29/30 consecutive days during the lunar month of Ramadan.
Peace good logic and Fusion,
You make good observations, but allow me to say that you are off-topic. The aim here is to understand a textual unit of the Quran that extends from verse 183 to verse 187 and to expose its structure. That is the extent of it. The Quran prescribes fasting, particularly during an entire lunar month, describing in detail its observance or the conditions for its non-observance. The idea again, I repeat myself, is to expose its beautiful structure, to meditate on it (savour it) and thus avoid, as much as possible, exegetical manipulation through an atomistic reading of the Quran (isolated verse).
NB
Peace good logic,
Coming back to what people call rituals, it is up to their understanding of the message using their own faculty/reasoning what they do with Qoran s instructions to them.
But we must be wary here of putting the cart before the horse...
If I may, you're conflating two things the literal understanding of a text in its context, and your personnal opinions on this text. My personal goal is to provide an effort to understand the Quran without personal lenses. The rituals may not be useful to you or you may not see an interest in them for you personal faith, but if the Quran mentions these rituals, then we must discuss and understand them. What you do with them afterwards is indeed of your own responsibility.
If everyone can understand the Quran in his primary sense as they see fit, then what's the purpose/useful of a divine message?
This text, like any discourse, has two essential dimensions
To return to the passage that concerns us here, fasting has both a physical and spiritual dimension, a spiritual dimension in connection with the Quran, to celebrate it during the lunar month in which it began to be revealed, and then as a guide that should be particularly meditated upon during this month. It is an effort and a collective moment centred around what brings us together the Quran and its reading/meditation.
Peace good logic,
Each study and come to their own conclusions and prepare to meet their Lord with whatever they choose and decided to do.But there is nothing wrong about studying and learning together ,like here, with respect and humbleness, at the end
Wise observation. That is why I mentioned the ambiguity of verse and particularly using the word dulūki.
BUT, on the other hand, at the very least, one must respect the rules of the Arabic classic language, or any other language for that matter. And to cite just one example, when verse says two + (wa) 1 = 3, then it's 3 and not two. One should not be deaf to clear discourse, nor twist the meaning that is fundamentally evident. This is, in fact, what traditional exegetes do by indicating that these times of the night include 2 prayers! Muhammad Asad, who translated very well the meaning of the beginning of this verse, couldn't help but mention the 5 prayers in his commentary !. Incidentally, for verse , it should be noted that the other authenticated recitation variant is zulufan (instead of zulaf in the Hafs version), with an equivalent meaning, but in the singular, which then removes any ambiguity.
I also mentioned in my previous comment the ambiguity of the form ʿashiyi, which can designate several time periods; certainly all related to the decrease in luminosity.
Let's continue our effort of understanding, as you rightly mention in your comment.
This term is used three times in connection with two moments of Prayer, in opposition to the beginning of the day (i.e. dawn)
Recite what has been revealed to you from the Writing of your Lord. None can change His words. And you will
find no refuge besides Him. Be patient with those who call upon their Lord in the early morning/ghadati (1) and
aat the latter part of the day/AAashiyyi, seeking His Face.
Therefore endure patiently, for Allah's promise is true. Ask forgiveness for your sin and glorify your Lord
by praise at the latter part of the day/AAashiyyi and at dawn/al-ibkari (2).
Do not drive away those who call upon their Lord in the early morning/ghadati (1) and at the latter part of the day/AAashiyyi.
And (coincidentally?), another term asali is used in place of the word "ʿashiyi" in 3 other passages, in connection with two moments of Prayer
They said "Tales of the ancients which he has had written down and which are dictated to him
at dawn/bukratan (2) and at the end of the day/aseelan!"
When the Qur'an is recited, listen to it attentively and remain silent. Perhaps you will receive mercy.
Remember your Lord within yourself, with humility and in fear, without raising your voice, early in the
mornings/ghuduwwi (1) and at the end of the day/asali, and do not be among the heedless.
Indeed, those who are near your Lord are not too proud to worship Him. They glorify Him and prostrate before
Him.
In houses which Allah has permitted to be raised and wherein His Name is remembered. He is glorified therein
early in the morning/ghuduwwi (1) and at the end of the day/asali. By men whom neither trade nor sale distracts from the
remembrance of Allah.
In conclusion, one can observe that the words ʿashiyi and asali are used in opposition to time with the same words that designate the beginning of the morning (in red and blue below). These two words ʿashiyi and asali are thus, in this context of Prayer, interchangeable.
(1) root ghayn dāl wāw (غ د و) the first part of the day, the early part of the morning, meal at dawn
(2) root bā kāf rā (ب ك ر) beginning of the day
Peace Wakas,
It can appear like that but to my knowledge most long term forum members think it is twice daily or a minimum of twice daily, so there is not much variance among them.
Also there is this $$$ challenge
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
No-one has come up with any errors so far. It's only been 5 years... maybe they need more time.
It is still necessary that the game is not rigged from the start; and that you are open to the arguments of others.
If these conditions are met, then we must first agree on the following definitions
The strict duration of day and night The day goes from dawn to sunset (cf. my first post) and night from sunset to dawn.
The plural in Arabic begins from three. Arabic language shows, besides singular, dual and plural (broken
and regular), something that could be described as the fourth number the plural of small number or plural of paucity (jamu l-qilla), thoroughly studied by Sibawayhi.
The ritual prayer can be evoked by the word as-Salât or indirectly by the process of synecdoche (Glorify, prostrate, recitation, etc.).
So, if we agree with these 3 elements, then the Quran mentions at least 3 prayers (in Meccan or Medinan context) and not 2 as you indicate in your above comment by the expressions
Now, let's look among the earliest revealed verses for those that mention at least three prayer times. We first have the verse
7625 And remember the name of your Lord in the early morning/bukratan and at the end of the day/aseelan.
7626 And from the night/mina al-layli prostrate to Him and glorify Him long.
=> 3 moments beginning and end of day, and from night.
Now let's look at the following verses
Glorify by the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting
and from the night glorify him also and after the prostration.
=> 3 moments beginning and end of day, and from night.
Then verse allows us to understand that the "(at the) ends"/aṭrāfa (1) corresponds to the beginning and end of the day. The verse removes also the ambiguity of the plural aṭrāfa used here, as both day and night can only have two edges-sides ! (by using the word tarafiya)
Finally, the verses
Perform the Prayer at the two edges-sides/ṭarafayi of the day, and at the hours of the night near the day/zulafan
=> 3 moments beginning and end of day, and from night.
The term zulfa in Arabic means any hour approaching day or night. Here we have a plural, so it evokes the hours/times of night close to day, i.e. after sunset.
The problematic verse remains . If we stick to these 3 prayer times, then the translation is as follows
"Perform the Prayer at the setting of the sun/dulooki until the intensely darkness/ghasaqi of the night.
And the Recitation at dawn, for the Recitation at dawn is witnessed.
At night, keep vigil/tahajjad with it, an additional-supererogatory work/nâfilatan (2) for you."
=> 3 moments beginning and end of day, and from night. + 1 vigil prayer
Nb
(1) aṭrāfa (Lane's Lexicon) The extremity, or end, of anything; and a side; a lateral, or an outward, or adjacent, part or portion; a region, district, quarter, or tract; The fingers and has no sing. unless this is used as a prefixed noun, as in the saying أَشَارَتْ بِطَرَفِ إِصْبَعِهَا
(2) nâfilatan (Lane's Lexicon) What accedes to, or exceeds, the original.(T.)A voluntary gift, by way of alms, or as a good work(T)a gift(Ḳ) or a giftعَنْ يَدٍ (M)a deed beyond what is incumbent, or obligatory.(M, Ḳ.)
Peace Fusion,
I appreciate the effort put into breaking down the prayer timings based on different verses, but I want to step back and ask a more fundamental question.....should we be looking at isolated verses to determine these matters, or do we need to consider their context? Because if we take verses out of context, then everyone will just pick whichever verses fit their preferred view.
Yes you're right Fusion, quranic verses should not be read in isolation, and this is what I am working on to identify the textual units of the text and their correspondences with each other. However, you must use a proven methodology for this, otherwise you risk making mistakes. This is why I use rhetorical analysis, which proves to be a powerful tool for uncovering this structure of the Quranic text, and which has proven its worth.
But here I wanted to list all the verses that deal with ritual Prayer (the formal form of remembrance of God - to be combined, of course, with its non-formal form, which is to remember God as often as possible); in the absence, for now, of having completed the total rhetorical analysis of the text. This still gives an idea of the vocabulary used to designate these "ritualised prayer times". Some are clear whilst others (according to classical dictionaries) may "seem equivocal". In this case, perhaps we should use the advocated method of reading verses that "seem equivocal" in the light of those that are not equivocal .
Now, looking at 1778-79, it comes right after a strong discussion about the Prophet facing opposition and being urged to stay firm. The earlier verses (1773-77) make it clear that he was under pressure to compromise. Then, 1778 tells him to follow a set program from morning till night and stay vigilant, ensuring he is prepared for challenges ahead. It seems to be more about structuring the day for strategic action rather than prescribing ritual prayers. The phrase "before the day dawns, set out your schedule in the light of the Quran" makes a lot of sense in this context.
Interesting idea. But the only snag is that, in Arabic, as-Salât essentially means Prayer.