Salaam,

What a great post!

It very uplifting and encouraging and so very true sun

Peace.

Salaam Huruf,

While your interpretation and reading of the verse is interesting and thought provoking---it simply does not resonate with my current reading and understanding.

Often on many issues I am in broad agreement with much of what you say and appreciate your insight but on this one for now we will have to agree to disagree.

Peace.

Salaam All,

Released, I hope you are and your family are settling in nicely into your new home and that the little one's routine adjusts soon---the sleepless nights are tough! Your descriptions of her early attempts to crawl made me laugh but its amazing how someone so little can have so much grit and determination and perseverance to try and keep progressing and learning despite setbacks like bruised bottoms, tumbles and falls!

Yes, I have only one child and always wanted a girl and the Creator was kind enough to bless me with her. Ah, the teen/tween years, indeed, the drama, the crushes, the emotions and angst...should be fun D

Though the thing that scares me most is teen drug use. Just about everything else I can (hopefully) cope with but I saw my younger cousin start taking drugs for 'fun' with friends in his mid teens and things just spiralled right out of control and his life is pretty much in tatters. It breaks my heart as he was the nicest boy bright, articulate and kind and now is almost unrecognisable.

Thank you for your response its given me even more to think about in regards to verse (43), that may or may not be about polygamy, depending on the interpretation of the posters.

On this one some of us are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I personally, still think verse (43) is about polygamy.

My original view was that the Quran had stopped polygamy. However, thinking about all the interpretations and discussions we have had and taking into account the historical realities of the times. I am considering a slightly different take. I think it more likely that the Quran recognises the reality of polygamy but is also discouraging of it.

Historically, polygamy was pretty much a fact of life for certain segments of society. It certainly existed pre-islamically and was the norm for many cultures. I feel that the Quran recognises this fact, but the question is how does the Quran see polygamy?

Verse (431) appears to be within the context of widowed women and dependent children and protecting their financial interests and is taking measures to protect them by limiting the marriages "to just the one".

The next mention is in the verse quoted (4129) "Howsoever you may try you will never be able to treat your wives equally. But do not incline (to one) exclusively and leave (the other) suspended (as it were). Yet if you do the right thing and are just, God is verily forgiving and kind".

Its in relation to marital discord and eventual breakdown culminating in divorce. 'Howsoever you may try you will never be able to treat your wives equally' again to me it seems to be a warning and a suggestion that polygamous marriages result in inequity and unkindness so may lead to unjust behaviour.

The fact that words such as equitable, equity, equally, just, never and iniquitous are used suggests (to me) that the Quran---does not favour it. These are all fairly loaded terms, warnings, and a general reading of the Quran reveals that God does not like the unjust, unkind or those who profiteer from the misfortunes of others.

This again is my opinion but on certain pre-existing situations (e.g slavery,polygamy) the Quran takes an interesting approach. It recognises all these situations exist but does not condone them. The language reveals clues and hints that suggest (to me) a lack of support for both situations. To me the verses imply--if you are going to take this step, know that you will be held to account, in which case think again very carefully and proceed with caution.

Living in the West you cannot have a polygamous marriage, its against the law. That does not stop certain people from their supposed God given right!

Then we end up running counter to the Quranic injunctions of being honest, upright and just, as all sorts of sordid lies and excuses are made to cover up the presence of a second spouse or more--this is not decent behaviour by a long shot. From a practical point of view how can you have a legal will for all these wives and children? What happens if the man is abusive, deserts them or dies? What if one of the wives wants out? What if the first wife never wanted to be in a polygamous relationship? If so can she easily access divorce? Get alimony and access to kids if any?

I personally know two families that went down this route, with utterly disastrous results. The blogosphere is full of horrible experiences that women have undergone--it makes me livid.

This is unjust, its just wrong. In short I am following my conscience and my personal reading that polygamy is recognised but is discouraged in the Quran and really we as muslims need to work towards some sort of legal framework to deal with this issue in a way that to quote the Quran is just, equitable and compassionate.

Look forward to your take on this

Peace.

Salaam Huruf,

You have pretty much expressed what I have thought but was unable to articulate---I remember as a teen (a long long time ago) discussions on this issue with my maternal and paternal grandparents they pretty much shared your attitude towards abortion that its an option for certain times of ones life when continuing with a pregnancy is not feasible due to whatever factors.

There was no blame or shame attached---just a realisation that its a choice and no judgement was made on those who choose this option. For educational purposes I was sent to a Catholic girls school as you can imagine the attitude there was completely anti-abortion (only amongst the nuns and christian staff) they took a hardline approach even for cases involving rape and incest--which I found surprising.

While I can understand some people feeling uncomfortable making such a choice and that its not for everyone---I agree that we should respect the rights of those who do opt for it and give women a safe and medical environment to do so rather than some grubby back ally procedure as once was the case in many countries.

For those who are interested the Michael Crichton novel is called 'A case of need'. Its pretty good and deals with a case involving an abortion its set in the 1960's before it became legal.

Peace.

Salaam Dawn & Huruf,

I understand what you are saying---but to me the Quranic text always feels elastic enough to cover a wide array of views and interpretations. Which may explain why God in the Quran suggests that we seek the best possible meaning within the verses--this raises the question who decides which is the best meaning? I would say each person is responsible for their own belief and interpretation and will be held to account for that.

We all have different understandings of the verse in question--and each of us finds that a particular meaning resonates more than others and thats fine.

Released and I both share a similar view on polygamy--but how we got to that view and how we interpreted certain things varied but I think its alright to see things differently but at the same time be willing to be open to others ideas as they can ultimately lead to greater understanding.

I hope she will have time to post her perspectives and look forward to continuing the discussion.

I have certainly gained much with all the fresh perspectives some have resonated, others were less convincing but all had merit. Huruf made very valid points about keeping in mind translator biases/errors and the dangers of reading the Quran through the prism of pre-conceptions.

I love that everyone on this post is willing to share their knowledge, views and time on these matters and that the discourse has been enlightening.

So thank you all group

Peace.

Salaam all,

Dawn, you have opened another interesting topic and for which there seems to be no easy answer.

I don't recall anything that directly mentions abortion in the Quran--please correct me if I am mistaken. The only verses that come to mind refer to already existing children and stresses the importance of not killing them because of poverty or because they were girls.

I agree with many of the above posters about the sanctity of life, and that once you have been through a pregnancy and had a child how you feel differently about abortion, and also that abortion should be an option in life threatening situations for the mother, or in cases of rape or incest or extreme disability (like severe cerebral palsy) BUT there is another part of me which thinks that abortion should be an option without all these qualifiers.

I just see so many children and hear of so many heartbreaking stories where kids are unwanted, uncared for and unloved or abused. Could there be anything more painful in life than being unwanted and even hated by your own mother or both parents?

Surely, its more cruel and evil to deprive a child of love and care --and being brought up by resentful & sullen parent(s) has just got to be soul crushing! Nor must it be enjoyable being a martyr of a parent riddled with a horrid mix of resentment, guilt and anger.

Children are both a gift & a huge responsibility and honestly I do not think everyone is cut out to be a mother or father. There is no shame in that--we all have different strengths and weaknesses. Its best to realise this early on than be told of course you will bond with your child and life will be rainbows and unicorns!

Birth control is a huge blessing and help, but sadly accidents can and do happen, in which case its best to think matters through very carefully and take honest stock of one's life, personality and capacity to nurture and either give them a life filled with love or give up the child for adoption or consider an abortion.

It makes zero sense to me when I have spoken to people who have chosen to continue unwanted pregnancies because 'abortion is a sin' but then seen them take their frustrations and resentments out on the child and justify their behaviour by saying at least I gave them a life----just wow!

Abortion simply ends the potential for a life---but having a child and then proceeding to neglect & resent them and destroy their self-worth that to me is a much bigger injustice and sin and can lead to disastrous consequences for all concerned.

Peace.

Salaam Revealed )

Babies are so cute when they start crawling and when they try to pull them selves up on a sofa or chair--the look of intense concentration and the smile of triumph when they succeed---love it. Your first child?

I have a 7 year old daughter and she makes me laugh with all her observations and thoughts. She is a lot of fun!

I quite enjoyed 'Brother Yaseen's' article and thank you for bringing it to my attention.

I particularly liked the groundwork that he prepared for his reasoning with laying out similar verses on related topics. As I could see where he was going with the issue and his rationale.

An additional benefit was reading his views on who constitutes an MMA and I was pleased to note that he does not consider them to be captives or slaves but simply another category of dependents--that made sense to me.

However, I have to say that while I agree that polygamy is not sanctioned by the Quran---I am not fully convinced by his reasoning/logic--I know Brother Yaseen and others on this forum hold the opinion that the verses suggest marrying off lots (as in groups) of orphans in one go and that the polygamy angle is read in the verse because of translator biases and assumptions (courtesy of hadith and the flawed logic if the Prophet could so can we--never mind that his situation was an exception) that polygamy is permitted.

I opened three different translations of the Quran to compare the structure of verse and am using Ahmed Ali's translation as it flowed better and to me it seemed like Quran actually put a stop to polygamy

(43)If you fear you cannot be equitable to orphan girls (in your charge, or misuse their persons), then marry women who are lawful for you, two, three, or four; but if you fear you cannot treat so many with equity, marry only one, or a maid or captive. This is better than being iniquitous.

The key words for me were 'equitable' & 'equity' words that suggests equal treatment. I assume that would mean treating all spouses in exactly the same way material, emotional, sexual, affection etc. Clearly this is a next to impossible task particularly from an emotional/affection standpoint, it goes on to say that you cannot treat so many with equity--so 'marry only one' As this is the fairer and more just act rather than being 'iniquitous'.

Yes, the topic of polygamy seems to arise somewhat suddenly amidst verses concerning the rights of orphans and minors and protection of their finances and property, but then why say marry only one--if not as a restriction. Which to me does not support the marrying off groups of orphans interpretation.

Here, I am going to be purely speculative---what if there was a situation caused by the wars and lack of men. As a result some unscrupulous men were usurping the properties of orphaned kids by either marrying the girls or their widowed mothers to assume control of fiances and hence the verse was seeking to limit this kind of greedy and unethical behaviour and hence restricting polygamy in the process.

A two birds with one stone approach. Total conjecture on my part--but is it such a stretch?

Thats my reading of the verse after much thought and pondering on different interpretations and views. What do you think?

It was definitely an interesting, thought provoking and well written article--he ends with a comment about polygamy resulting in the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. I have to say that notion had not even crossed my mind and all I could think was yuck!

I look forward to your views and interpretations )

Peace.

Salaam All,

I tend to read the "Al- Quran A contemporary translation" by Ahmed Ali (published 198 as its only a translation with no tafseer. Something that I personally prefer as it allows you to focus on the text of the verses.

As a result there are no distracting side stories and explanations and tafseers like Yusuf Ali or arcane language like Pickthall, and also the language used by Ahmed Ali is quite lyrical and beautiful with a cadence and rhythm.

Ahmed Ali also refused to translate the verse 434 as beats and has given a brief explanation for doing so. I believe at the time he got a lot of flack from uber traditionalist types, who were outraged by his temerity on this issue and also polygamy, but academics and more sensible muslims backed him.

Since most of this happened pre-internet, not many people are aware of the background to this particular translation and it was not promoted heavily ---a pity as I feel its one of the better translations out there.

Not perfect--but very good nonetheless and deserving of a wider audience.

Its the one I give to people when they are curious about Islam and it always disarms people as opposed to the dreadful and insensitive translation by Muhsin and Hillali that seems to be everywhere!

Salaam Released )

I like the picture of the dancing girl--its lovely!

Thank you for your thoughtful response and I agree with much of what you say. I have to admit that wading through hadith is pretty tiresome and not particularly enlightening from a spiritual point of view--for that the Quran reigns supreme.

However, I do find them interesting for the insights (granted somewhat dodgy!) into the historical, sociological, political and gender dynamics of the day.

It says more of the biases, superstitions and politics of the time than it does about the Prophet who is unfortunately saddled with all manner of opinions (many down right absurd and half of them contradicting each other or or even worse totally opposing the ethos of the Quran).

Actually, it makes perfect sense to use these secondary sources to cross reference language. After all many words may not be used in modern Arabic or the meaning may be completely different and seeing the context in which the words were used in the past would be helpful.

Thank you for the link and I am going to read it and will share my opinions with you.

Ultimately, I think you and I are in agreement that polygamy is not encouraged by the Quran even though we went about in different ways to come to that conclusion.

Peace.

Salaam Released,

I do not mind at all --thats why we are here to discuss different perspectives. The stuff about the Prophet is not just hadith but from early biographers of the Prophet such as Ibn Sad etc many of whom are not derived from hadith and not particularly well known outside academic circles.

Its very difficult to just read certain portions of the Quran out of the context of the history and time and events that prompted certain verses. Nuance is everything---I am not at all suggesting a wholesale adoption of hadith lore but a critical analysis of history, events, the quranic verses and secondary matter (that may or may not contradict the Quran).

In the end we have conjecture and only God would know who is right or wrong but use the gift of reason, logic, the Quran and our conscience to hopefully come to a reasonable conclusion.

To write off an entire history as being pure fantasy (though these records are undeniably not without problems) is as short sighted as assuming that they are 100% correct as very traditional muslims believe.

I simply think that polygamy was specified for a particular time and not as a right as is assumed by many muslim men--its caused tremendous anguish and pain to many through its misuse---I doubt that was the Creator's plan.

Haruf, thank you for that perspective--I agree with much you have said and never quite thought of it from the point of view you presented in your second paragraph.

Peace.

Salaam Dawn,

I don't think the Quran supports polygamy--I think the ideal is a monogamous relationship as per the Quran

Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.

Maybe, its just me but I don't see this kind of bliss being found with more than one wife.

My late grandfather was firmly of the belief that polygamy was no longer an option--it was for a particular period in time and as far as he was concerned the Quran emphasizes the limitations against polygamy in very strong words

"If you fear lest you may not be perfectly equitable in treating more than one wife, then you shall be content with one."(43)

"You cannot be equitable in a polygamous relationship, no matter how hard you try." (4129)

The recommendation is stick to one and an opening was allowed for a particular time in Islamic history but with caveats. No where does it say you can marry out of lust or the fun of having multiple wives.

As for the Prophet--his is an interesting and exceptional situation. Here I am going to have to draw upon historical and biographical references

He was according to all records blissfully happy in a monogamous relationship with Khadijah his first wife for the bulk of his life.

The polygamous marriages occurred in the last decade of his life (after Khadijah's death), most were tribal alliances, or to widowed or divorced women and in one case one wife Maria the copt was originally given as a gift by a Roman governor!

His wives reported that the Prophet often spoke lovingly and wistfully of his time with Khadijah--who can blame him. Apparently, his wives did not always get along and were beset with rivalry and competition. Nonetheless, he managed to make things work and was by all accounts very patient and diplomatic with all of them!

Once, things were politically and socially settled--he offered to release them from marriage, gift them with money so that they could live independently if they desired to do so. Which suggests that many of the marriages were to protect vulnerable women and once things were secure the Prophet did not feel that they had to stay married to him but could lead independent lives if they desired.

Yet another interesting point---his daughter Fatima was married to Ali, who then decided he wanted to take a second wife, this deeply upset the Prophet who said that then Fatima did not have to stay in the marriage. Ali then did not take a second wife until Fatima's death.

This does raise interesting issues

If the Quran allows polygamy--could the Prophet overturn it to protect the feelings and rights of a beloved daughter?

Unless, the original allowance for polygamy ended with the Prophet and the historical events mentioned in the Quran re orphans and widows from wars was only meant for that time and not meant to carried on as a precedent.

Much of the advice and suggestions in the Quran are universal and meant for all time but others are definitely aimed for a certain time/event in history. I honestly believe that God would like us to make the kindest and most honest judgements and to 'take the best of meanings' from within the Quran.

Particularly, as so much nuance and meaning is lost with the passage of time---increasingly hazier to subsequent generations and even if we make mistakes in our assessments I have no doubt whatsoever that our beloved Creator is a lot kinder and far more benevolent than we give credit for.

Peace.

Thanks Wakas! Very silly of me to overlook the index. This is a huge help!

Though there is still other stuff in threads I just cannot recall.

Do you have a reference for this please?

4.44 Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were given a portion of the Book? they traffic in error, and wish that ye should lose the right path.

10.37 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.

Moses was given The Book, Jesus was given The Book, Muhammed was given The Book but each are a portion of THE BOOK and each confirm each other. Quran is the final chapter in The Book.

Salaam,

Thats a really interesting point. It makes sense that the 'original' is held in safekeeping by God and all the faiths had a portion of the Book.

Its so easy for mistakes/mistranslations/distortions to occur and it does seem logical that the original is with God while we make a fine mess of the one's left in our safekeeping.

Enjoyed that joke about the priests and celebrate vs celibacy laugh

Have read Juynboll & Schacht not familiar with Patricia Crone. Thanks!

I have posted this before

Quranist are either one of those parties

1. they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
2. They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
3. They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
4. They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
5. Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.

This category seperates the rituals from the hadith. They reason as you did. However there is no evidence that these rituals are prophetic or obligatory or that there was no variance in how they were practiced. In fact Sunni sources says that the early Muslims in mecca prayed twice a day. But you were right that many of these rituals were practiced by Muslims before hadith. But I am not sure how earlier than hadith. These rituals could have been formulated by the Ummayids.

Salaam Bigmo,

Thank you for your reply.

I do agree with you that looking at early Sunni sources does suggest a variance. My cousin was reading a book that suggested that ramadan used to be fixed in February but was changed by the caliph Umar and I also read about their being 2 main prayers which then changed to 5 and then there is a whole host of stuff which can be construed very differently.

Would you be able to suggest books that explore this aspect of early Islam? I would like to read more about it and would appreciate your insights.

Many thanks!

Salaam all,

Firstly, this has been a great post full of insight and interesting perspectives.

So my apologies if this is going slightly off track. Is sunnah not distinct from hadith?

I always thought of sunnah as more the ritualistic aspect of faith. The way we pray, fast, go for haj and offer zakat is based on the practices of the Prophet. These were in place during his lifetime and I assume have not changed hugely in the interim.

While the hadith is basically sayings attributed to the Prophet by third party sources that really came into full force 200 or so years after his death and often contradicts both the sunnah and Quran.

So why are they conflated? Is it to shore up and make the hadith more legitimate?

In fact I recall being taught 6 or 7 hadith tops which were in harmony with the Quran (in my long ago school days in the 80's!) the focus was always more on the Quran. Even in my family the trend was more about the Quran and its value as a book of guidance and grace there was not even one book of hadith in the house and nor were we following the 4 juristic schools--though we did identify as sunni muslims!

Though this seems to have changed in the past 15+ years with the establishment of Al-Huda and other institutes which promote a certain ideological approach to Islam i.e uber conservative interpretations funded by Gulf money and this interpretation has crossed over to the mainstream as being the norm.

Peace.

Thats a good point. But that can also mean the level of knowledge since it takes knowledge of the Sunnah and the Quran to see what contradicts the Quran what does not. Not anyone has that ability.

Quranist are either one of those parties

1. they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
2. They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
3. They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
4. They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
5. Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.

All have a common denominator, nothing should be accepted that contradicts explicit verses of the Quran.

However we should remember for unity we must also not make binding whats not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. This last part is the most challenging and this has created rifts between Quranist. A Quranist should never make binding what the Quran has not done so by an explict verse and should never under any circumstance accept any source that contradict an explict verse of the Quran.

You are right that hadiths can influence how a person understands the verses of the Quran. But many also are influenced by the previous scriptures or their personal experiences in life. The Quran is a scripture that came for all mankind and its natural that there will be a diversity of understanding and approaches. As long as the two conditions I mentioned are met, than and only then we can say we are a single community as God has ordered us to be in the Quran. Breaking one of them by making binding whats not explictly mentioned in the Quran or accepting something that contradicts an explicit verse of the Quran will create disunity and seperates us. The Quran allows differences (ikhtilaf) but does not allow seperation (iftiraq). Our differences should never make us seperate from one another and create sects. The only way that will happen is what I mentioned. The Quran says differences (ikhtilaf) will be settled by God in the hereafter but seperation (iftiraq) will make God not only abandon us but God promised to create enmity and hostility between us because we abandoned the scripture as the final criteria.

Salaam Bigmo,

A thoughtful and well written post. Perfectly expresses what I have often thought.

Well said bravo

Peace.

The Koran is a guide book, a light. In order to access its guidance you have to remain open. Indeed, I am sure most of us would agree that although the Book is timeless, as time changes, more becomes apparent as and when God intends us to know.

I think the main thing is to hold fast to God and not be scared to peer out from our safe positions, because if we ask God to keep us on the straight road, I am pretty certain, if it His intention, that He will.

quote]

Salaam,

Thank you all for your insights and for some people taking the time to give detailed explanations for their ramadan choices. Its been very useful for me and has given me much to think about and study in the light of the Quran.

Dawngorgeous, I fully concur with your above sentence(s) and they beautifully encapsulate what I have often thought.

Peace.

Salaam,

I am with ES and Bender on this one. Though I do agree that the exaggerated status of mothers is a concession for the generally shabby way women are perceived and treated.

Farida, not quite sure how you infer from that verse that women who go to work are somehow lesser than stay at home mums. Sometimes people do not have a choice in this matter due to being widowed, divorced and suffering from financial hardship and some personalities are simply not suited to full time child rearing and need the additional challenge of study/work and are great at juggling work and family.

Really whatever works for each woman and family.

Peace.

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

Lets say, its like a game, there are many doors to enter, each door has a message sticked on it saying where it takes you. One door's message also says that it may take you directly to the God. Now all participants are allowed to enter any door of their choice. So, what is predestine here? Allah knows that which door each participant will chose to enter, so? It is His knowledge.

Another example lets take a calculator, the maker of it knows that which keys displays what and he also know the results for multiplying, dividing numbers, etc. etc. The user got a choice to press any key and if a user press 2 + 2 the result will be 4 always, even if he loves much to get 5 as a result.

This is how the Creation is made, based on formulas, if you do this, then it will effect you like this and so on. The users are given free choice for what he wants to chose for himself/herself. If user wants to chose something bad, then the effect will surely be bad, that does not mean, TheCreator has predestined this for him.

And 7179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Salaam mmkhan,

Thats a really good way of looking at it. I think its easy to confuse Gods knowledge of our actions as being our predestined fate. I agree that its our choices in life that will determine where we end up.

Peace.