Salaam,
Salaam,
Bender
You are not alone with your confusion. ;D
An atheist cannot "reject" a god.
You, a theist, believe that evidence for the existence of god exists.
An atheist does not. That's all.
So an atheist can't reject something for which he sees no evidence.
I personally have a problem with the concept that making love to a woman should result in eternal punishment, torture and pain, when we were both consenting adults and only did something very natural. I also have a problem with the concept of choosing and selecting who gets rewarded, based on a whim. That is my personal attitude.
Free will is different. This is a logical problem. You can't have free will and omniscience together. Also, an atheist also has, what is called "free will". So what's the difference between having choices and being able to do what one wants and "free will"? None. So "free will" as such does not exist.
Atheists don't make claims, they react to religious statements. Is there any proof a person is "bad" due to the influence of god or satan? No. Humans are good, neutral or bad. By nature.
Religions are human-based. Humans have learned over time what is good and bad, or what is beneficial or detrimental. Which is why we have laws and a society which dictates the norms, often based on those religions. Living in this society I am governed by those rules and face the consequence if I break them. If a man rapes a woman, the DNA can be used to provide evidence and the man is punished. What does the Koran use? The testimony of four others and if none exist the man can swear 4 times himself. No further evidence required.
Now to the point where you pose excellent questions, in my eyes. What happens if a criminal gets away? An atheist can only hope that fairness and the conscience prevails and that the human dominates and faces the consequences. If not that person gets away without punishment. In Islam, the person also gets away. But other Muslims hope that the criminal will be punished by Allah, who knows about this. But then, he already knew this criminal would be a criminal during creation and created the criminal anyway.
Now the issue crops up where a believer who is a bad person will be rewarded and the non-believer who is a good person will be punished. THAT's where the problems creep in. What do you think about this?
If I have misunderstood something, please correct me. I welcome any constructive criticism and try and learn what people here are teaching me.
hi StopS, could you point me to the number of that verse and chapter? thanks.
this is just my understanding which may or may not be wrong.
Allah reveals the messengers for a specific people to a specific time and place. for example, at the time of Adam the rules and way to conduct things might be different. the Quran was given to Prophet Muhammad 1400 years ago, at the time DNA testing is non existent. therefore people have to practise whatever method that is best. now with DNA testing available I think there is no problem utilizing this method.
Why is it that an atheist will support punishment for rape, murder or destruction of property and lives, yet seem to have tremendous issues if God punishes people for these same wrong doing? To an atheist do consequences of ones action hold true only in this life? What about those who get away, then what? If I cause injustice, pain, bloodshed and I get away with it in this life, then I just get away? But is it fair that the person who didn't get away gets punished in this life but the one who gets away doesn't? Does fairness and justice not apply or matter to an atheist?
hi,I'm not an atheist but let me try and answer some of your questions.
I believe what they are having trouble with is the idea of an eternal punishment. or things like flogging the fornicator.
(head to my reply above to read my understanding on the matter.)
the word atheist is used to describe a person not believing in a Creator. therefore he does not believe in the Hereafter. a Person either Theist or Atheist would all agree on the idea of "Action = consequence" action equals consequence.. but since the Atheist doesn't believe in the consequence or punishment of the hereafter then yes, indeed he do believe that after death the person that committed the crime will get away free. people comes in all different shapes and colours with different way of viewing things.
if a person doesn't believe in the punishment of the hereafter it does not mean that fairness or justice don't matter to him/her.
lastly I would say, All knowledge is with Allah.
Peace.
P.S, I'm sorry I got a habit of replying to topics that I don't fully know about. I haven't finish reading the Quran and I hope not to represent the Book of Allah in the wrong way. so please, to anyone that read my replies. read the Quran step by step to really know what is written.
@ ayisha, thanks for answering.
Salaam,
Please take a look by clicking here and see if it helps you.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan
thank you for the link. )
no. I'm not expecting anyone to read just any books by just anyone. but I do hope we could further study the hadiths books that is practised by millions of muslims today. you know, to get a better understanding. it's better to know right?
hey thanks for the link ) I'll be sure to check it out later.
you've answered all my queries thanks. I think you probably know more about hadiths than I do. sooner or later I'll change that.. sooner or later >D ehehehe.. ahahahahaha.AHAHAhAHAHAHAHa!! just trying to lighten the atmosphere
Salam.
if one were to take the collection of haddith into account then according to my understanding(which I'm afraid to say) it is. (Allah warned us about labeling things as haraam when it is halaal I am merely saying what I've read) ok this thread has come to it's end I'll close it later.
thanks to all the people that answered.
Peace.
CLOSED
I hope you have a passion for long posts as much as I have for writing them. bear with me.
3.now.. regarding the Angels/Malaika. I have always been a big conspiracy nut although less and less lately. and I like the idea of there's another race of beings. to me it's not impossible at all to have beings who are different to humans in their very nature. as muslim I think, doesn't matter belonging to what community I would say at least recognise the Characters that is mentioned in the Quran as Malaika/Angels.
example to one of the angels sent by Allah
He said(the angel), "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you a pure boy."
5.("some people aren't sheep" what makes them sheep? almost everyone I know in some way or another holds to a certain kind of ideology/way. muslims have their own ,christians have their own ,jews have their own every Tom,Dick and Harry has their own ideology/way. let's change the words rather then saying "we hear and we obey" let's say this is how I think it should be done therefore I'm doing it. let's break it down for further understanding.
Muslim first stage(not a muslim yet) second stage(found Islam) Third stage(studied) four(he trust his decision on taking Islam as a way. for having submitted and believe he's taken Allah as Judge. he thinks/trust this is the right way so he's going for it ).
Harry first stage(wants to buy a new phone) second stage (found an article about Mobile phones ) third stage(he trust his decision based on the article he reads ) fourth (he trust his decision after reading the article he's going for it).
I don't know that much but I do believe that the punishment for fornicators/adulterers is to be sentenced only to muslims?
muslims who have also submitted themselves. I don't know if the punishment is to be extended to people of other faiths.
6.regarding the jews and Allah forbidding them some of the food which was allowed for them before. I don't know much of how the story goes. I don't know if they were generations upon generations after Allah saved them first and put his favour upon them. maybe the ban was for a people of that time and that time only? I'm sorry but I'm afraid to comment on things I don't really know about.
yes, every matter should be investigated especially one as big as this. of course it wouldn't be a good decision to accept things blindly.
I would like to say that I don't know everything. even though I pride myself by saying I'm a muslim I haven't actually read the whole Quran. which is actually dangerous for me to reply to people and expect my answers to be of any use. but I like to communicate.
now coming back to your question. why Allah does not intervene to stop poverty and such. maybe Allah has helped individual person I don't know. I certainly haven't asked. but maybe when we do ask the people Allah helped most of us will probably think "ah there's nothing to it" now, why don't Allah just saves the world? I do believe according to the Quran this is a test.
this is my personal view(this similitude I'm about to give is probably mentioned in the Quran if memory serves me right) I am afraid to be of those that are ungrateful because I have been given a healthy form/body. imagine me the fully proportionate male with a chicken on one hand and a newspaper on the other. while saddened by the current happenings of the world I am enjoying a piece of chicken. now picture a person crying while enjoying a chicken. when I see myself like that I can't help but cringe.
it's the same as asking why create poverty in the first place. or why test us. refer to my reply above number 7. I don't think it's okay. I've read the story of Prophet Lot and his people. I would also recommend you to read Ibrahim's story I find him to be very easy to relate to. Allah being our Creator and all, he sure knows how we feel and what is in the chest.
11.(Allah did not answer the Angel's question)
maybe there is none, maybe they can't comprehend or maybe it's just me not finish reading the Quran.
lastly I would say, read the Quran chapter by chapter verse by verse. I have so many questions sometimes. if you have question regarding the Quran read the Quran. step by step. May you be of those that are Guided to a path that leads straight.
Salam wherever you are.
Note )
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled He said "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #124)
this is a link to search truth for more verses concerning Prophet Ibrahim
http//www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=Abraham&chapter=&translator=2&search=1&search_word=all&start=0&records_display=10&phonetic=
compare all the translations.
Salaam,
Welcome to the forum handshake
Salaam,
Bender
link to Quran Corpus website
http//corpus.quran.com/
Peace lookitup.
I commend your answers.
You certainly did look things up. Yes indeed you did " lookitup".
Peace
thanks for your kind words. but I still have a lot of things to learn other then my usual studies. I need to learn the Quran & Haddiths completely before I could decide which path leads me straight.
may Peace be unto you too.
my answer is based solely on my understanding. which isn't much to begin with. bear with me.
1.(Sex before marriage?)
I don't think sex before marriage is ok based on the verses you've quoted about lashing the fornicators/adulterer.in google translate the word is translated as Adulterer not fornicator but this need to be study more in depth.
2.marriage with atheist? agnostic? muslim? in the end it all depends who that person is. for example you could marry an Atheist that doesn't like your beliefs and would prevent you from further teaching the child your views. being an atheist doesn't make a person open minded. nor does being in a muslim society makes a person muslim. Allah knows who and what we are.
angels? as in Gabriel?(Jibreel) I think any person that believes the Quran was sent down from Allah/Creator need to recognise the character Jibreel.
4.Prayer is for our own well being. Contact Allah. so he might reply.
6.I think there is a verse in the Quran that forbids Jews from eating a certain kind of food because it was a punishment from Allah for what they used to do. similarly Allah has a reason to forbid us the eating of pork(maybe it is a test I don't know.. if a thing as simple as not eating a certain kind of animal should hinder a person from his or her deen then... ( )
7.Allah intervene?
it is easy for Allah, the splitting of the sea is as unbelievable to me as there is a giant floating ball of fire outside beaming energy rays to us. yes,I'm talking about the Sun. surely ONE that could create the universe and us humans.. the splitting of the sea would be nothing to Allah the Lord of the worlds.
8.see answer number 7 above ^ "Be and it is"
it is the mercy of Allah that I could feel what I feel. in the Quran it is mentioned that Allah has decreed upon himself mercy. it his mercy that you feel this way and that you were not likened to that of pharaoh. Allah is the Most Merciful if you repent sincerely surely Allah would forgive you but if you turn your back then surely Allah has sent messengers and completed his favour upon mankind.
homosexuality?
Allah condemns homosexual relationships in the Quran. maybe a man could be attracted to another man but according to my understanding Allah has forbidden the relationship.
12.why did Allah have to create anything? it's a bit hard to answer this question.. even the angels probably don't know. Allah is free of needs. let's study the Quran more. you, me, and the whole of man. let's read.
13.I can't really give a complete answer on this if my memory serves me right Allah does not punish a people until the message has come to them and they reject it while they know. Allah sees everything even our deepest innermost thoughts truly Allah is the best of Judge.
I don't know let's try to understand the subject more Shirk is associating partners with Allah.
2.people have taken an idol as their master/Lord while it can't do anything for them.. it can't give them nor can it punish them nor save them.
3.Allah sent a Messenger to the people. The messenger warns them. most of the people that reject the messengers in the Quran are either mocking or transgressing or an arrogant tyrant(Pharaoh) or even a people that knows that this is the truth yet they still cover.
ultimately I would like to say that the examples that I've given is probably full of flaws.. I don't know if I should even reply to this thread.. I do urge you to read the Quran. I hope not to misled others.. so here's a link to Quran Corpus
http//corpus.quran.com/
it has over 7 different english translations I think it is a good site to learn.
http//zombierobots.net/wp-content/main/2011_03/Earth-vs-Sun.jpg
Peace.
fun topic. I don't know what language is in the Garden maybe there's a thousand maybe there's none. maybe we could all speak the same language. anyway it's one of the things I find interesting. just imagine the site.. maybe we could even converse with other different species.
simple answer I don't know, but I want to find out.
How can it be haram when the Qur'an does not say at all such a thing? That would mean that anybody can make anything haram whenever that suits him. But then it would be his haram's, not God's haram. And who cares at what anybody might haram of his own or not? Would you like having some harams of mine?
Salam
if one were to take the collection of haddith into account then according to my understanding(which I'm afraid to say) it is. (Allah warned us about labeling things as haraam when it is halaal I am merely saying what I've read) ok this thread has come to it's end I'll close it later.
thanks to all the people that answered.
Peace.
YUHBAROON , comes from the word HABARA , in arabic, HABARA means high style music and words, HABARA is the origin of the modern word Operah , HABARA = Operah , Music is promoted by the quran, good music of course
but the meaning of the word "YUHBAROON" itself is delight no? I'm a bit cautious about deriving meaning of the words. I don't think this is convincing enough but, sometimes I think of music as pleasant sounds.. could it actually be Haraam? Allah knows best.
thank you for your reply.
I'm reading the collection of Bukhari's Hadith through a couple of sites right now but they don't differentiate between Dhaif(weak) or Sahih(Authentic) or etc..(other levels of hadith). is there any site that offer an insight to what hadith belongs to what group?
for example
Narrated Ibn 'Umar Allah's Apostle said Islam is based on (the following) five (principles) 1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. 2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. 3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) . 4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) 5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.
this hadith can be found in Sahih Bukhari but how should I know if it's Sahih(Authentic),Dhai'f(weak),Mauquf (untraceable - stopped) or etc..
Well, it depends on what you intend to do with the hadiz. If it is your purpose to derive permissions or obligations, then you may have to study a lot, but if one does not want that, but get spiritual or common sense knowledge, then, as far as I am concerned, one does not have to labour like a slave to classify hadizths which are manifest nonsense or irrelevant or outright inmoral or defaming for the Prophet.
I I think there are selections of hadiths where you get good ones by content. As far as I am concerned, that is what should be done. Selection of the ones that offer honest food for thought or reflection. I cannot see the use of dumping a whole lot of irrelevant gossip, or ridiculous recounts.
Absolute certainte I do not think that we will get from any of them that it is stright from the Prophet's mouth. So the content is the relevant element of it. If it serves, well and good, if it does not or diserves, why bother.
Salaam
thanks for your reply still it would be good to further our understanding
peace
What is it that you hope we could all learn more about hadiths?
if it's possible It'd be best to learn as much as we can about a way of life that has been practised by muslims over a thousand years. either you accept them or not, like it or don't like it, the knowledge will be useful when confronting to someone who does follow haddith or when confronting your ownself when you are having doubts. I want to someday to have a discussion from people of all beliefs.
For the sake of accuracy, I am a sister.
As to reference to hadiths, I am sorry, I am a lousy documenter. I read, I take the gist of it and never care to note down where or what. But I can assure you they exist. May be you can do a search for music, allowed, forbidden... Well I am sure you will be able to manage it, though it may take time.
In fact, one thing about hadith is that on any question you may find one thing and the opposite recommended, ordered, forbidden, etc.
Which even if we think they are authentic, which we will never be able to ascertain, it is logical. Things which are not decisive usually depend a lot on situation, circumstances, persons' condition, etc. ... so why should anything at all always be the same?
The trap of hadith is that anybody can pick whatever he or she likes and pound it on whoever lets him or herself be pounded on with a pile of "holy" words.
The honourable Qur'an on the other hand, comes complete, with all the context we need. Some people say that hadith adds context. No. We do not need a context which is not our context, and context, exact, complete, accurate context can never be reproduced. Therefore, the honourable Qur'an does not give context which may serve only to confuse, but gives just what may feed our understanding and souls.
Salaam
thanks for the reply. I do however insist on studying the haddiths either person accept it or not it would be good to have more knowledge.
Welcome to the forum!
Why should you have to fear calling yourself Muslim or anything else? Here are the verses about dividing into sects
6159 Those who have divided their system and become sects, you are not with them in anything. Their matter will be with God, then He will inform them of what they had done.
3032 From those who have divided their system and become sects, each group is happy with what it has.
But the one to focus on I think is this
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who upholds the contact prayer, and who contributes towards purification; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous.
I think that as long as you're following 2177 for the foundation of your life, then you shouldn't worry. As long as you're seeking the truth and verifying things and holding fast to the Quran, God will guide you to what is correct.
Yes I have. yay It was a long process at first reading Yusuf Ali's translation, but when I got my hands on a literal translation, I flew threw it in 2 1/2 weeks! The original words of God are so straightforward and easy to read that I don't get why people feel the need to throw in their own interpretation.
Oh God no. I did a search once for salat in hadith - one topic - and I ended up looking through the search result for three hours. At the bottom of the search page, I realized that there were at least 12 more pages of results and so far I did not come across any specifics at all. sigh imho, I think it takes way too long to read and it is very exhausting.
When I did a search for "salat" in the Quran, I got a list of verses that were simple, read the context around each one, and had a better and more detailed understanding about it in about an hour. Whew!
As per my understanding, Hadith is Chinese Whispers without the confirmation of the original story, so I personally don't bother with them at all. (100% reject).
Peace! I hope this forum can fulfill the appetite of your curiosity! sun
you've answered all my questions thank you! still I hope we could all learn more about hadiths. thanks for your replies sun
Peace Lookitup.
Taking any other book as a guide to your "deen" is idolworship. You are taking on another god with God.
Qoran should be the only source of "deen". Check out
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/word-of-people-v-word-of-god/
May you be guided to the right path.
Peace.
thanks for the link.