The highlights above are from me.
I'm beginning to smell yet another conspiracy in the brewing process against ISLAM & THE QUR'AAN. All I know is that according to The Qur'aan (936 & 937), Islamic calendar-year ALWAYS consists of only TWELVE Lunar months with no "leap" year.
Anyways. This was my last two cents worth regarding this topic.
... ..., and peace be upon whoever that follows the guidance...
Peace,
Khalil
Thank you for this debate
Dear Noon waalqalami
Dear M-Amine,
No that is not all, again there is no "best" in the verse and one group counted while the other did not.
1812 furthermore raised we them to make evident which the two groups counted of what remained they duration of
Here translation from King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur'an
http//www.qurancomplex.org/Quran/Targama/Targama.asp?L=eng&Page=294#18_1
And here tafsir Ibn Kathir
(Then We raised them up, that We might test which of the two parties) meaning, the two
parties who disputed about them,
(was best at calculating the time period that they tarried.) It was said that this refers to how
long they stayed in the cave.
And here tafsir Aljalalayn
{ } { } { } { } { } { } .
No, again you are not answering the question how do you know number of years that you slept?
2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, 101, ...?
You can?t know number of years, but
If you sleep in winter and wake in winter, you can tell I slept 1 or 2 days.
If you sleep in winter and wake in summer, you can?t tell I slept 1 or 2 days but some weeks or months.
For this reason the YEAR in Qur?an is a SOLAR year not lunar.
No, again why it is not clear "they" in the word or you need reminder of verse you posted earlier?
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=37934
1825 ... and increased they nine of
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=7676
390 ... increased they
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=12617
4137 ... increased they
Here translation from King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur'an
http//www.qurancomplex.org/Quran/Targama/Targama.asp?L=eng&Page=296#18_1
And here tafsir Ibn Kathir
Here Allah tells His Messenger the length of time the people of the Cave spent in their cave, from the time when He caused them to sleep until the time when He resurrected them and caused the people of that era to find them. The length of time was three hundred plus nine years in lunar years, which is three hundred years in solar years. The difference between one hundred lunar years and one hundred solar years is three years, which is why after mentioning three hundred, Allah says, `adding nine.'
And here tafsir Aljalalayn
{ } { } { } .
Peace
On the contrary, it is highly illogical and unjust that a month like RMADZAN fall in a fixed season like Summer, expecting the people living in the northern hemisphere, for example, to fast very hot 18-hour days, year after year, while at the same time, residents of the southern hemisphere are fasting very cool 8-hour days.
Peace,
Khalil
Dear Khalil.
The logic is that Ramadan is fixed in the autumnal equinox, when everyone can faste the same length (12 hours) in north and south.
With the current calendar, every day of the year can be sacred (months turning over the year).
And every night of the year can be Leilat Alqadr!
And the beginning of Ramandan in Egypt is not the same as Morocco, and Eid is not the same and the day AARAFA is not the same ...!!
Without the use of the intercalary month, the Muslim calendar is false.
Peace
Dear Noon waalqalami
Dear M-Amine,
There is only one correct reading and we have to read carefully the words used not insert words or suppositions like "in this verse "" is as ""..." ? again the word used is counted which again here is the clear definition of the word used?
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ha-Sad-Ya = Calculate, to count/number. to number/count/calculate/count/compute a thing, to reckon a thing, reach the last number of a thing, collect into an aggregate by numbering, retain a thing in the memory, understand a thing, register/record the number of a thing, comprehend or know a thing altogether.
ahsa n.m. comp. 1812
... , (inf. n. , TA,) He numbered, counted, calculated, reckoned, or computed, it (S, Msb, K) or he reached the last number thereof (Ham p. 297) or he collected it into an aggregate by numbering from ; because they used pebbles in numbering like as we use the fingers; (Er-R?ghib or because they used to divide a thing upon the pebbles, and when nothing remained they said, , i. e. We have come to the pebbles; or because they used to reckon the spoils, and to divide among themselves, and then to take the pebbles, and put marks upon them, and when they ended the reckoning, and came to the marks, they said, (Ham ubi supr?) or he retained it in his memory (K, * TA) or he understood it. (K.)
= And afterward We raised them up
= that We might know
= which of the two parties
= would best calculate the time that they had tarried.
There is two parties, one will be right and the other not.
So one better than the other.
that's all.
How would you know coming out of your sleep that it's 100 years later?
That was whole point of verse and exercise not possible to know years.
Which BTW, is aam/year(s)...
2259 or like the one who pass by on a town and are empty on trellises its said how gives life this the god after death its so caused to die him the god hundred aam/year(s)...
If you fall into a coma in the winter and you wake up in the summer, you can not say you've slept a day.
Climate and vegetation will change in the meantime.
No, the word 3rd person masculine plural perfect verb always and is only applicable to people nothing else.
See examples of the exact same word used ...
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=7676
Increased - They
390 indeed the ones disbelieve/reject they after belief theirs furthermore increased they disbelief/rejection of never accepted repentance theirs and those they the straying
Likewise 4137
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=12617
Therefore, someone was asking questions and they were increasing by nine. Answer to their speculation was ...
1826 say the god of knowledge in what remained they to him unseen the heavens and the earth...
It is your own reading, there is another part of people who read "exceeded by nine", "And add nine (for lunar years)." "And add nine"?
Peace
You can find the answer to your first question in verse 1825 below.
And they remained in their cave three hundred years and add nine.
Adding NINE to the initial thee hundred years informs us that the Muslims were using LUNAR calendar. Otherwise, it was not necessary to tell them about the addition of nine years to the three hundred SOLAR years.
As for your second question. Up until the revelation of surah 9, especially 936 and 937, the disbelievers, for their mere economical interests, used to move the number of sacred months around year to year as it pleased their interests, disregarding the socioeconomics of the society as a whole. Revelation of 936 and 937 put an end to this corruption, by restricting the number of months to TWELVE and by forbidding the Nasii.
Peace,
Khalil
No, it proves that the Muslims used the calculations they inserted after every 32 months a full lunar month to keep synchronization with the seasons (winter, spring, summer, fall).
It is not logical to have a month called "RABII 1" or "RABII 2" which mean SPRING in September or November!!
And the verse does not prohibit the use of "Nasii" he tells us that the removal of "Nasii" to decrease the number of sacred months " " is an excess of disbelief.
Peace
Dear Noon waalqalami,
Dear M-Amine,
The translations you are using are inaccurate, add/omit words, and make assumptions.
I think that the different translations reflects how people read the verse.
The word means counted not preference (something is better than another) use context; see also ?
7228 ? and counted/calculated each thing number of ?
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ha-Sad-Ya = Calculate, to count/number. to number/count/calculate/count/compute a thing, to reckon a thing, reach the last number of a thing, collect into an aggregate by numbering, retain a thing in the memory, understand a thing, register/record the number of a thing, comprehend or know a thing altogether.
ahsa n.m. comp. 1812
ahsa vb. (4)
perf. act. 1849, 1994, 3612, 586, 7228, 7829
impf. act. 1434, 1618, 7320
impv. 651
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 223, 224
... , (inf. n. , TA,) He numbered, counted, calculated, reckoned, or computed, it (S, Msb, K or he reached the last number thereof (Ham p. 297 or he collected it into an aggregate by numbering from ; because they used pebbles in numbering like as we use the fingers; (Er-R?ghib or because they used to divide a thing upon the pebbles, and when nothing remained they said, , i. e. We have come to the pebbles; or because they used to reckon the spoils, and to divide among themselves, and then to take the pebbles, and put marks upon them, and when they ended the reckoning, and came to the marks, they said, (Ham ubi supr? or he retained it in his memory (K, * TA or he understood it. (K.)
I think I misspoke.
I know that "" mean counted.
I meant that in this verse "" is as "" which is called in Arabic grammar " " which is used to define two things that share the same capacity, but some is better than the other.
For more information http//articles.islamweb.net/media/index.php?page=article&lang=A&id=168597
That only works within one year; example fall asleep in winter and awake in summer not for many years.
If I fall into a coma in August 20, 2013 (summer) and I wake in August 20, 2113, one hundred solar years later, I'll be in summer so no difference.
This is not true with purely lunar year as we do.
No worries your English is fine and all above are inaccurate except for Dr. Ghali.
Three parts to the word in question?
http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=37934
And ? Increased ? They
Thus we have to translate close to Arabic as possible which 1825 they?re asking question and making assumption.
1825 and remained they in cave theirs three hundred snyn/seasons and increase they nine of
The answer to the above assumptive question is given thus...
1826 say the god of knowledge in what remained they to him unseen the heavens and the earth...
This is not true. "" mean "years are increased" and not "Ashab Alkahf had nine more years."
In this verse, the years have been cited in the plural "" therefore "" is linked to years "" not "".
If the verse was so " " your reading is correct but the opposite is true.
This is a bit off topic different subject and same reason one cannot eat swine flesh -- it's a commandment.
No, it is an important subject, without lunisolar calendar we can not respect the sacred months nor the true month of Ramadan or the month of Hajj ...
Peace
The Qur'aan is direct,straightforward, and very clear on the subject.
1st The number of months in ISLAMIC calendar-year is always TWELVE.
2nd believing-in and including the Nasii in the ISLAMIC calendar-year is EXCESS IN DISBELIEF.
And again, pay attention to the verses 936 & 937 below.
936
Verily, the number of months with Allah is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by Allah on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are Sacred. That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein, and fight against the polytheists, collectively as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allah is with those who are Al-Muttaqun (the pious).
937
The Nasii/ postponing (of Sacred Months) is indeed an increase in disbelief thereby the disbelievers are led astray, for they make it lawful one year and forbid it another year in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah, and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their deeds is made fair-seeming to them. And Allah guides not the people who disbelieve.
Peace,
Khlil
Hello,
Where have you seen in the verse 936 that one year is 12 lunar month?
And why "Nasii" is an excess of disbelief in the verse 937?
Peace
Dear Noon waalqalami.
Dear M-Amine -- where did I mention airplanes and satellites?
Qur'an is precise and does not give mediocre calculations or instructions nor should we insert words and assumptions where there are none and guess in the unseen.
Where did you see the insertion of the words in my answers?
Which word is "best" in the verse?
1811 so cast we over ears theirs in the cave snyn/seasons number of
1812 furthermore raised we them to make evident which the two parties counted of what remained they period of
In this verse (1812), the word "" is a name that mean preference (something is better than another) as any words like "" in Arabic language, that's called name of preference ( ل.
If someone awoke from coma in desert or cave -- how would they calculate their time asleep?
Yes the whole point -- they don't know time spent; like awaking from deep sleep/coma, none knows.
If they fall into a coma and was awake in the summer, they can say we slept one or a few days.
Please translate the word exactly ? who increased?
1825 ... and increase ?
My english is very bad so I only use translations already available
Sahih International
And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine.
Muhsin Khan
And they stayed in their Cave three hundred (solar) years, and add nine (for lunar years).
Pickthall
And (it is said) they tarried in their Cave three hundred years and add nine.
Yusuf Ali
So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more)
Shakir
And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine.
Dr. Ghali
And they lingered in their cave three hundred years, and to that they increased nine (more).
They're guessing in the unseen as you using same imprecise calculations known to ancient star gazers i.e.
309 x 12 lunar months = 299.799498 years
This Qur?an corrects in the very next verse?
1826 say the god of knowledge in what remained they to him unseen the heavens and the earth...
Who are "They're"?
The purpose of you posting the above verse?
Yes ponder Qur?an, read precisely not inject words where there are none or make assumptive guesses.
It is true it is crucial to understand the Qur'an but not with the point of view of the ancestors.
Now I have one question for you. Why we do not have the right to hunt in the sacred month?
Peace
And now, according to your brand new hadeeth, we should include the "Nasii" in the ISLAMIC calendar, IGNORING the straightforward verse of The Qur'aan (937), clearly forbidding it to be included in the calendar!!! brickwall
Peace,
Khalil
Hi,
I've already answered this question.
37 -
In the verse above, the act of Unbelief is due to the cancellation of the month Nasii " " to make it unsacred when it is applied.
Peace
And no, this is not a new hadeeth it's simply the great Qur'an!
Peace
Peace -- who exactly is telling in 1825?
Approximations are incorrect/imprecise and their speculation is clearly answered in next verse...
1825 and remained they in cave theirs three hundred snyn/seasons and increase they nine of 1826 say the god of knowledge in what remained they to him unseen the heavens and the earth...
Dear Noon waalqalami,
On approximations, know that the Qur'an is not a book that is here to teach us how to make airplanes and satellites.
It is there to guide us in life and show us the right way so that people can live in peace and prosper economically and scientifically ...
So it is for us to follow this path and try to learn.
Now come with me to see what Allah (swt) says in Sura ALKAHF
18 11-12-13
So We cast over their ears within the cave for a number of years.
Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of years they had tarried!
It is We who relate to you, , their story in truth. Indeed, they were youths who believed in their Lord, and We increased them in guidance.
In these verses (11,12), ALLAH swt says that he has awakened them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of years they had tarried!
Then (13) he told his prophet, he will recite to him their true history.
18 19
And similarly, We awakened them that they might question one another. Said a speaker from among them, "How long have you remained ?" They said, "We have remained a day or part of a day." They said, "Your Lord is most knowing of how long you remained. So send one of you with this silver coin of yours to the city and let him look to which is the best of food and bring you provision from it and let him be cautious. And let no one be aware of you.
Later in verse 19, Allah (swt) said to his prophet, that even the ? Ash?ab ALKAHF ? did not know how long they are left and they said that only Allah (swt) know.
18 25-26-27
And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine.
Say, " Allah is most knowing of how long they remained. He has the unseen of the heavens and the earth. How Seeing is He and how Hearing! They have not besides Him any protector, and He shares not His legislation with anyone."
And recite, , what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.
Then in verse 25, Allah (swt) informs the prophet of the true time they spent in their cave, and as Allah (swt) is very accurate, he said the time in numbers of solar and lunar years, and calculations show that.
Finally (26) he said him to say, Allah is most knowing of how long they remained.
The Qur?an is not a simple text that can sing in mourning or opportunities, this is a book that should be read and understood.
47 24
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?
Peace
2530
And the Messenger will say "O my Lord! Verily, my people deserted this Qur'an (neither listened to it, nor acted on its laws and teachings).
Dear Khalil,
According to the Qur?an, Alhajj is some months 2 197
The Pilgrimage is (in) months well-known; so, whoever ordains (upon himself) the Pilgrimage in them, then there shall be no lying with (womenfolk), nor evident immorality, nor disputing in the Pilgrimage. And whatever charity you perform, Allah knows it. And sustain yourselves; so, the most charitable sustenance is piety; and be pious to Me, O (you) endowed with intellects!
According to hadith, Alhajj is only some days ? ?
According to Qur?an, the punishment of adultery is a hundred stripes 24 2
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
According to hadith, the punishment of adultery is lapidation.
According to Qur?an, every one is free to choose his religion 2 256
There is no compulsion in the religion; right-mindedness has already been evidently (distinct) from misguidance. So whoever disbelieves in the Taghut (i.e. false gods, idols, devils and seducers) and believes in Allah, then he has already upheld fast the most binding Grip, with no disjunction (ever); and Allah is Ever-Hearing, Ever-Knowing.
According to hadith, punishment of apostasy is the death penalty.
So actual muslims refer to HADITH and IGNORE Qur?an, for this reason, the prophet will says, the day of judgment
And the Messenger has said, "O my Lord, indeed my people have taken this Qur'an as abandoned."
It?s clear for you now ?
1st Just pay a little bit more attention to 105 below.
I've highlighted the masculine pronoun that has been used. This goes back to the Moon which is a masculine noun in Arabic language. It cannot refer to the Sun because the Sun is a feminine noun.
2nd The calculation of years, months, and other events like Hajj and fasting of Ramadzaan, and the HARAAM/SACRED months must be based on ISLAMIC LUNAR calendar, not anything else.
3rd Your are concerned about "business" and "administration" and what not! In that regard you should congratulate the "Islamic" and "Muslim" communities for their historical backwardness. Islam ruled the whole civilized world for over one thousand years and all BUSINESS and ADMINISTRATION was run according to ISLAMIC LAWS. This is all because we got farther and farther away from The Qur'aan and started following you know who.
Look those verse
6 96
He is the Cleaver of the Daybreak, and He hath appointed the night for stillness, and the sun and the moon for reckoning. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
God tell us in this verse that he created the SUN and MOON for reckoning (Calculation). So we must use both of them.
MOON Rotation determine the month.
EARTH Rotation determine the year (4 seasons).
SUN Rotation Synchronize MOON and EARTH rotations each 19 years.
18 25
And they remained in their cave for three hundred years and exceeded by nine.
A simple calculation proof that year in Qur?an is ? SOLAR year
1 Solar Year = 365,25 days
1 Lunar Year = 354,34 days
300 x 365.25 = 109575
309 x 354,34 = 109491,06
So 300 Solar Years is approximately Equal to 309 Lunar Years, the 9 exceeding years are in reality the number of months inserted to synchronize Lunar with Solar Year.
Look
In 300 years, there are about 15,7 Metronic Cycle.
300 / 19 = 15,7
In each Metronic Cycle, we must insert 7 month, so total months is
15,7 * 7 = 109,9
If we divide total months by 12, we have the number of lunar year
109,9 / 12 = 9,083333333333333
So when ALLAH swt tell ? ? (And they remained in their cave for three hundred years) he mean Solar years.
3rd Your are concerned about "business" and "administration" and what not! In that regard you should congratulate the "Islamic" and "Muslim" communities for their historical backwardness. Islam ruled the whole civilized world for over one thousand years and all BUSINESS and ADMINISTRATION was run according to ISLAMIC LAWS. This is all because we got farther and farther away from The Qur'aan and started following you know who.
Yes totally agree with you, but that was before they summarize the science in the study of hadith and before they totally ignore the math.
If I ask you, what is your date of birth? What do you say?
Peace
Hi Khalil,
Where do have read in Qur'an, that year MUST be LUNAR?
And where is calculation in our actual purly lunar calendar?
Our actual calendar, is unusable in business and administration!
Peace
Dear M-Amine,
If ALLAAH, swt, Has ordained a year to be 12 month in length, and considers the "Nasii" to be excess in disbelief, then how do you explain the 13-month years in your post?
Peace,
Khalil
Dear Khalil,
Hello,
Allah swt has never ordered that the year must be 12 months, he informed us that the system we live in is set at 12 months.
He also created the difference between the solar year and the lunar year to push us to study maths (Calculation).
Check out this verse
It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that you may know the number of years and calculation. Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know
For Nasii I already tell you that this is not the fact of using Nasii that addition to Unbelief but its removal.
Peace
Hi dear,
Look with me
36 -
According to The Qur'aan, there are only 12 months in one year and that?s true
1 Lunar year = 12 x Lunar months = 12 x 29.53 days = 354,36 days
1 Solar year = 365,25 days = 1 Lunar year + 10,89 days = 12 x Lunar months + 10,89 days
both lunar and solar years have 12 lunar months, but in solar year, there is 10.89 days more.
Lunar and solar cycles are synchronized every 19 solar years(called Metronic Cycle), but 19 lunar years are less than a Metronic Cycle by 7 months.
To keep the lunar months in their seasons, we must insert 7 lunar months in 19 lunar years, these inserted months are called (Nasii), it's not really considered as a month but it is an extension of the previous month like the 29th day of February.
It is not logical to have the month ?Rabii 1? that mean spring in winter, or the four sacred months out of season of animal breeding, or the month of Ramadan in summer, in Siberia day is over 22h!.
37 -
In the verse above, the act of Unbelief is due to the cancellation of the month Nasii " " to make it unsacred when it is applied.
Peace
Amine,
Peace be upon you and God's mercy and blessings
Dear Brothers, I offer you in this thread a software that calculates and display the Arab - Hijri calendar with the patch "Nasii" by using the account of lunar and solar cycles, to suit Arabs months with the seasons of the year, but returns to sacred months logical reason the prohibition on hunting land ...
I have relied on the accounts of NASA that allows to know times of the emergence of new moons in hours and minutes since 1999 BC to 4000 AD in Gregorian calendar and I compared it with the beginning of the Arab months even managed Thankfully get a percentage match of approximately 98%, and the percentage difference does not exceed one day and this is normal because lunar month is equal to 29.530588 day and process of calculating dates is based on months with number of days ranges between 29 and 30 days.
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phasecat.html
The method of calculation is as follows
From here http//5.39.80.167/index.php
I leave you in God's care and wait for your remarks.
Sorry for my bad english