Jafar,
Thank you for a balanced post bravo

Salaam
group

es,
No sorry he's from and living in the Punjab.

Salaam

es,
I spent some small time in the Punjab at Amristsar and Ananpur sahib.
I am in the U.K at the moment and there are also some small number of Nihangs here.
As I am sure you are aware the history and influence of Islam on the Sikh faith and The Guru Granth Sahib has lead a few Sikh scholars to study the Holy Qu'ran. Also some Tibetan Buddhists consider Guru Nanak Dev Ji to be an Incarnation of Padmasambhava the Mystic from Oddiyana (Kashmir) and one of the main teachers in Vajrayana Buddhism.
The foundation stone of the Hari Mandir (Amristsar) was laid by Baba Sain Mir Mohammed Sahib (c. 1550 ? 11 August 1635) the famous Sufi saint.

Salaam

Zulf,

I have found Shamatha and Vipassana when applied diligently and over time to have excellent results. I have also discussed these techniques in detail with (what I consider) to be learned and wise Muslim teachers who assure me they are neither incompatible nor contradictory to Islam.
In fact they have comparable techniques in some Islamic lineages.
I only mention these in particular as I have found them exceptionally efficacious!

A good friend of Mine who is a Nihang Sikh took this advice and decided to on retreat with Goenka's Vipassana for 10 days (the courses are free and non religious) he has now incorporated the techniques into his study and prayer.

I could go on about why these techniques are useful/helpful to a Muslim however it would appear that most here are both able to research and think for themselves.

Salaam

Salaam BornAgain,

I am not suggesting that the Rohingyas do not have real grievances, as do the poor Burmese who live impoverished, oppressed lives under government rule.
I am trying to show that it is not about Buddhist or Muslim these are incidentals in this case.
It is not about ethnicity or religion but poverty and lack of power.
The perception of those with a vested interest in staying in control of land, money and power (those with all these) will use incidentals like Religious affiliations to control and divide those who may oppose them.
By shouting divisive slogans and apportioning blame to anyone but the government is playing the loaded game on their terms.
Whether the Government like to call themselves Buddhist or not means very little as it would if they called themselves Muslim. Both would clearly be lies!
Certain (so called Muslims) are putting out mis-information regarding this issue including (I have seen these) alleged pictures of monks killing Muslims. Many of these are fakes taken in other countries (one from the Chinese earth quakes when Buddhist Tibetan monks are helping clear bodies and look for survivors) and claiming it as proof of Buddhist atrocities brickwall
The problem with these issues is that people play out their own problems through the medium of others problems and by so doing add more misunderstanding and enmity to the world.

Salaam

Salaam Brothers and Sisters,
I spent some time in Burma (as it was) and still have friends there! I am a former Buddhist Monk as well.
I have found two disturbing patterns of behaviour in the so called Muslims. When Muslims commit crimes or atrocities they should not be called Muslims. When Muslims have atrocities done to them it is by particular religions (not individuals) and it is because they are Muslim.
Double standards?
The Rohingya have made it very difficult for poor Burmese living side by side with them, they have also had a number of criminal gangs creating real havoc. They have made demands of the Government that would give them quite a bit of autonomy and land. This has caused numerous tensions with the indigenous poor farmers as you can imagine.
This is not about Muslims or Buddhists it is about land and power!
Whoever makes it a religious problem does a great disservice to both sides! hail

Salaam

FJ,
I am not advocating adoption of another belief system nor a belief in pixies and leprechauns rotfl
I was not suggesting you take on anything new.
What I was advocating was practice over study.
meditation over academia.
I have found periods of intense experiential study (meditation) to engender some very interesting insights and realisations.
You may question these (and it is good to do so) is it a chemical imbalance in my brain brought on by...?
Is it is really 'religious' or is it mental illness?
However what have you to lose?
I have found meditation exceptionally useful helping me both directly experience insights and intellectually grasp, what seemed unreconcilable dichotomies.
Again you have the internet at your disposal to see the medical and psychological benefits of meditation so I will not start posting evidence.

Instead of thinking that I want you to take on any new beliefs (as I do Not) think of it this way...
I am just suggesting you apply some exercises that you do not even have to believe work!

As for the universal consciousness and souls on a different spectrum thing, this is not something I personally adhere to. My beliefs are neither new age, all embracing or as woolly as you seem to think.

My suggestion is a practical application of exercises not a taking up of beliefs or religions.

Salaam Brother hmm

FJ,
Firstly I am afraid that quite a few quantum physicists posit consciousness permeating the universe, a quantum mind if you will. I will be quite happy to offer sources if you think I am being less than honest.

Secondly I was suggesting an experiential paradigm shift. That by utilising certain methodologies one can see the world in a very different way.
I see that you ask me for proof.....well if I were to offer proof it would be anecdotal. Of what use would that be to you?
If you do not see the merit in this fine, I am only relating what I have found to open up new vistas of enquiry and faith.
I have no axe to grind nor have I anything to prove.
I have found that certain forms of experiential enquiry can be very useful in how we see the universe and ourselves.
The paradigm shifts these elicit are often accompanied by 'eureka' moments where are deepening realisations can bring both understanding and faith (I mean faith based on experience and intellect)
Evidence for universal consciousness? As I am sure you are aware numerous scientists posit just that and listing them or their theories would be fruitless.
I was suggesting that this evidence based purely intellectual approach to God is fundamentally flawed.
If it has lead you to a spiritual dead end vis-a-vis a knowledge of the divine what would you lose by approaching it from a different angle.
Of course I fully understand that you may find such a suggestion silly, superstitious or illogical even.
However what does it matter if we appear silly, many superstitions have roots in fact and logic is a finite vessel.
I think I have overstepped the mark and made a suggestion that was not received well and this may lead to confusion over what I propose. If this is the case you have my sincere apologies.
I made the suggestion in good faith. From reading your posts I think you are a sincere and honest man and I had no intention of misleading.

Salaam

FJ,
Please forgive me if I am somehow discourteous by butting in here?
I am not a Qu'ranist nor is my knowledge of the Holy book deep or learned.
My experience of God comes through a different medium. If this is discounted here or by you I apologise for wasting your time or breaking forum etiquette.
It would seem that contrary to many claims that Qu'ranists are deeply influenced by a historical and cultural bias.
Many of the more mystical traditions (experiential as opposed to intellectual traditions if you will) would interpret what constitutes Allah, God etc whichever label we prefer in a very different sense The Dharmakaya of Buddhism or the consciousness that permeates the universe in Quantum physics.
Would it be worthwhile in looking at this through a different lens or from a different angle that may offer not just a fresh perspective but a means to read afresh the Qu'ran within a different paradigm?

Just a small thought from someone who gained an unshakeable faith through many faiths.

Salaam Brother

You would have lost big time in that bet.

This is the ONLY forum I have gone to about this topic, because it is the best Quranist forum I have seen, and I reject the Hadiths as valid to Islam in any way.

Fairly limited intelligence? That is extremely rude. You seem to have fairly limited answers to the question at hand. And as a matter in fact, I did get my GED, but not recently, does that really mean I an stupid or such? No. Far from it in fact. I am constantly looking things up, learning new ideas and discoveries, mainly my searching falls into science and religion. I also plan to attend college soon for Psychology, so that I can find real cures to the suffering of humans.

I have not only dipped my 'toes' in many different religions, I have full on dove into them. I have studied many in depth, their histories, backgrounds, beliefs, religious scriptures, etc, etc. I have studied Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity and it's many sects, Islam, both Shia and Sunni, Daoism, Neo-Paganism, Sikhism, Jainism, Gnosticism, etc, etc, etc. You know what that means? That means I am more capable of judging wether or not a religion is the 'true religion', if that is even possible, then you are. Have you even studied outside of Islam? I mean truly studied, as in you just didn't take a quick glance at the other religion and say "Nope, can't be true, nuh uh, no way", but actually looked at one, many, with an un-biased mind, and just used your own rational intellect, your wisdom. I highly doubt it.

There is no juvenile logic and mind set about my questioning in any way. You just can't seem to manage a rational answer. An answer that would make sense to something so illogical, and if true, evil.

I understand very well what everyone has said, it's just that no one, not a single person, can justify such an irrational idea. Everything I have gotten here, I have gotten from the leaders of the churches here, or other religious people with the same belief of an all-knowing God. And you know what, so far it has all been nonsense, and nothing but propaganda, a clinging to the belief. Not one person here has really answered the question, because not one can.

Maybe you have seen this a hundred times, but I am not one of those trolls. I am a serious truth seeker, looking for God, if he exists. And the only place I have found the possibility of that, is in the Quran. But this one thing, destroys the entire religion, until I can be shown otherwise a rational explanation.

By the way, just to be clear, I am a practicing Buddhist Agnostic. Secular Buddhism. Buddhism is simply the study of reality as it is, and the path to ending mental sufferings. It's proven to be useful and helpful. But I feel that there is more out there. That maybe there is a Self, a soul, and possibly an afterlife. At least I hope so.

I have said it before, and I will say it again...

God has knowledge of all things.

God created the universe, knowing all that would take place before the actual creation. Everything, down to every thought that would be thought of. Down to every action that would be took, every word that would be spoken of.

Before creation, God already knew, fully, who would and would not go to hell.

God did not have to make this universe, he could have made that one, or that one, or that one. Where I would be born and come to believe in Him. Where everyone would believe in Him and go to heaven.

Going by the last two statements, God is evil, because he predestined so and so for heaven, and so and so for eternal damnation, to suffer by burning for all of eternity.

There is no getting out of this, it is clear in the Quran. Unless God only knows all, past and present, and through our making, because of our souls, he does not know who will be worthy of heaven and hell.

Do not resort to insults, simply because you can't rationalise a belief that you hold.

I am not a troll. I am not attacking your religion. I am seeking truth, and questioning sincerely.

Give me a real answer, a rational answer, or none at all.

Bodhisvasti,
This may be the only forum you have come too regarding Islam. That does not mean it is the only forum you have been to regarding the questions of religion and it's application.
You missed my point again.

As for your intelligence and whether you feel you have been slighted? There are many types of intelligence (as you will find when you study psychology)
Finding cures to the suffering of the world is most excellent and commendable.
The maxim "physician heal thyself comes" to mind.
One who would lead others to wholeness must have walked the path themselves otherwise how can they guide?
I have had a rather varied career both academic and spiritual and I can assure you that your rigid reliance on one dimensional logic negates the possibility of seeing the answers you wish to see.

You have not dived into any religion! You have scratched the surface (yet you have felt immersed) All genuine spiritual traditions need to be lived over time. Our ways of seeing the world and our very being take many years to be re-programmed from their habitual patterns.
I will give you an example I was brought up in India, Nepal and Ireland (although I have spent many years in other countries. In my early teens I became very interested in the mystical traditions and spent some time before University living with Christian monastics in the Desert Father tradition and at Shativanam in the tradition of Henri le Saux and Fr Bede Griffith. This was for about 3 years. I returned to the U.K where (I to) studied psychology gaining a degree. I then returned to India where I met a good friend who was a student in the Sufi tradition I lived with him and his teacher in Delhi for approx two years until I had to return to Himachal pradesh as my father had died suddenly.
My half brother is a monk and I lived with him at his monastery for a further two years after the death of Dad. I travelled to Nepal to stay with my fathers family who live just outside Kathmandu where I studied and worked for 5 years until I received an invitation to visit my grandmothers sister who was very elderly in Honk Kong. In Hong Kong I studied both Ch'an Buddhism and Wing Chun the latter with Ip Chun the son of the late master yip man. I met and married my wife after living there for almost 6 years. We returned to England where my wife died after two years of an awful illness. Her father was Black American and her mother was from Vietnam, I returned her ashes to Vietnam and travelled for a while after spending time with her mother and step father. I then entered a monastery in the Forest Tradition for a further five years. I gave back my robes about 10 years ago.
I have maintained a core of application, spiritual exercises that I maintain every day. I continue to receive teachings on a regular basis. I have also studied with other traditions for shorter periods with Nihang Sikhs, Vedantist yogis and others.
I am a qualified hypno-therapist and psychotherapist .
I am in the U.K at the moment selling my house and winding up my business to return to India where I will be spending some time with my Sheikh who has been unwell for some time. After taking my leave of my teacher I will return to my teacher to enter retreat for three years.
I have hardly touched the surface of any of the teachings I have had the good fortune to be given nor have I the wit to understand one tenth of their depth.
I do not think I can explain God, Allah, Dharmakaya, Ek Onkar etc etc through words. Finite vessels by logical definition can not contain the infinite.
If one thinks otherwise one is proving how foolish one is.
Saying is not doing, and posting, reading or a few minor life changes are not walking the path!

If you truly want these answers stop looking outside and as all the mystics tell look inward, surrender the questions and the questioner because beyond these dualities is where your answers lay

Salaam Brother )

Yeah God forbid we interpret the Qur'an literally and simply. Let's instead interpret it how it fits our own personal views.

I respectfully inform you it is not just my view!
I should have been more circumspect and the fault is mine. The Holy Qu'ran can be read on many levels and interpreted on many levels.
If you see it literally and simply then I respect that!

But you know what that one verse is besides the point. I provided tens of verses showing how the Qur'an supports predestination. You have only tried to refute one. And the weakest one at that.

I would have been happy to respond and was going to do so, unfortunately I have been resting due to working from the early hours.
I am unsure as to the wisdom of doing so as you clearly think my non-literal and non-simple explanations are lacking.
I also do not wish to offend or confuse.

There's no denying such a clear message from the Qur'an about predestination though I'm sure you can try.

If you are being honest here and consider my words to you to be fruitless, what point is there in my posting further points?

I read your posts as certainly more polite and open than Bodhisvasti's and it appeared that you could comprehend beyond his simplistic logic therefore I responded (whereas I would not with him). It was not meant to be disrespectful.

Salaam

Faithful Jinn, "It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth"

You deduce "Here I have a verse that suggests predestination. It is not Muhammad and the believers who slayed their enemies, but they were guided by Allah's hand"

I disagree with such a simple and literal conclusion (and one that is at odds with the Holy book in general)

I think it is more appropriately interpreted within the context of a 'Muslim' struggle when those struggling have surrendered totally to God they are no longer mere men but instruments through which God's will is manifest.

The one who is has cast out, ignorance, pride, covetousness etc etc has nothing to hold to nothing to own nothing which is not of God! This is why he returns to The Eternal. So it is for the prophets and the true Muslim, they are the greatest of creation. This world has nothing for them, all they have is what is in the Eternal. In my humble opinion, this dhikr of Jonah in the whale illuminates this

?There is no god but You! Praise be to You! Verily I was from amongst the transgressors.?

He begins with negating falsehood, which is the way of the people of la ilaha illa?Allah, which then goes on to affirm tawhid, then after acknowledging His Oneness, he praises Him in the best of ways. Then finally he lifts His rank further by diminishing his own, he has come to the knowledge that in His presence he is nothing. Such is the way of the people of fana? or annihilation. They have destroyed their nafs and been reborn anew. They become the living embodiment of the divine phrase

??My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask something of Me, I would surely give it to him. Were he to seek refuge in Me, I would surely grant him it. Nor do I hesitate to do anything as I hesitate to take back the believer?s soul, for he hates death and I hate to hurt him.?

Allah (SWT) gives further proof for this with regard to the Prophet (SAWS) when he says

?It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah?s in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).? (817)

As Maulana Rumi tells us, when one is completed subjugated by Divine Power, he is like the phoenix rising from the ashes. Gone is the way of old for him. Now he is the ?Abid of Allah, completely reliant on Him, every waking moment is in remembrance of Him. He is the embodiment of tawakkul (?al-mutawakil?).

So at this point all actions and being are a manifestation of God. The trials are those that like the trials of Jona burn away the afflictions of sin (attachment) leaving the only Gods will!

Bodhisvasti,

I would bet money (if I bet ) that you have been on a few different forums searching this way.

I can tell from your answers that you have had a fairly limited education, I would bet it is only recently that you attained your G.E.D.
You answer rhetorical questions with the confidence of a professor but with the application of a child.

You have dipped your tow in the water of a few different belief systems.

You can never expect a different outcome if you continue to do things the same way (this is a definition of madness)
Yet you continue to approach this subject (and one would guess the last or next subject) with the same juvenile logic and mind set.

With respect you have not understood my posts or others and I am not even sure you can understand them.

I have seen this a hundred times!
I will not post to you again.
Maybe I will see you in your next forum in your next guise as a Atheist communist, buddhist or Vedantist.

brickwall

Salaam Brother,
You have a very literal linear mind and this causes you much difficulty.
You do question which is good.
like pouring water in to a vessel the water takes on the shape of that vessel.
Just so your logic construction gives a shape to the created and the almighty creator.

Do you think that Allah can be encapsulated by words?
Do you think his infinite wisdom and compassion can be comprehended through logic?
Do you think these limited man made finite vessels such as words and logic can reflect one tenth of his glory?

The Prophet (PBUH) gave us a path to follow, to let go, to surrender our words our logic our systems our con-straining vessels.
We had to caste out (Jihad) not just sin but attachment to all things except the Almighty and by so doing surrender to his will (Muslim)

This path of absolute surrendering to the will of the Almighty is called Islam.
To see what lies on this path one must walk it, not talk about, not debate, not make films about but really walk it!
One must smash apart ones constraing vessel, smash apart ones logic and smash apart ones attachment to limited dualistic logic to get a glimpse of the beloved or to comprehend such questions.

As it is at the moment you will never receive a satisfactory answer! No matter where you look!
Your Ideas and comprehension have taken on the shape of the vessel you transport them in, your words and logic.