To me, the writings of Layth and Ayman seem to be influenced by the ideas of Hagarism, which was refuted by the majority of orientalists.

Where are these guys now?

But how do you know that 89 was revealed before 3124?

SLm

Selam Soul4Ever!

Sites

www.alrahman.de
http//www.meine-islam-reform.de/
and the old Forum www.Nur-Koran.de

On alrahman.de (Forum!) you can find the Date for our next Platalk session.

Falls du die Seiten bisher nicht kanntest, hast du jetzt sicher viel zum lesen

slm

http//en.wikibooks.org/wiki/History_of_Islam/The_Mutazilites-Asharites_debate

Selam!

Some new findings (the great Khutba of Wasil ibn Ata, translated in german), show that the story of "withdrawing from Hasan al Basri" was a sunni invention in order to

1. Rehabilitate Hasan al Basri who was a Qadarite
2. Demonstrate that the "mutazilites" were sectarians who left the sunni majority believe, which in fact did not exist at that time.

The Mutazilites of the first generations called themselves "Ahlu Tawhid vel Adl". The sunni name "Ahlu Sunna vel jema" was an answer to the first one. Most of the philosophers have shared some views with the mutazilites. Some of them (Al-Kindi) are supposed to be mutazilites (despite the fact that Al-Kindi didn't agree with them in every topic)

Literature

(i) Catalogues and Handbooks
Gregor Schwarb ?Un projet international le manuel des oeuvres et manuscrits mu?tazilites.?
Chronique du manuscrit au Y?men 2 (Juni 2006)

Handbook of Mu?tazilite Works and Manuscripts. General Editors Sabine Schmidtke, Gregor
Schwarb, David Sklare. Leiden Brill (Handbuch der Orientalistik) (forthcoming).

Sabine Schmidtke ?Catalogue of the Mu?tazili Manuscripts in the Abraham Firkovitch Collection
(Arabski-Arabski), St. Petersburg.? A Common Rationality. Mu?tazilism in Islam and Judaism. Eds.
Camilla Adang, Sabine Schmidtke & David Sklare. W?rzburg Ergon (forthcoming).

(ii) Editions

Abu l-Qasim al-Busti Kitab al-Bahth ?an adillat al-takfir wa l-tafsiq (Investigation of the evidence for
charging with kufr and fisq). Edited with an Introduction by Wilferd Madelung & Sabine
Schmidtke. Tehran Iran University Press, 1382/2004.

Sabine Schmidtke ?Re-Edition of al-Minhaj fi usul al-din by Jar Allah al-Zamakhshari.?
Ma?arif 20 iii (1382/2004), pp. 107-148

Yusuf al-Basir Das Buch der Unterscheidung. Jud?o-arabisch ? Deutsch. ?bersetzt und eingeleitet
von Wolfgang von Abel. Freiburg Herder, 2005.

Abu l-Husayn al-Basri Tasaffuh al-adilla. The extant parts introduced and edited by Wilferd
Madelung & Sabine Schmidtke. Wiesbaden Harrassowitz, 2006.

An Anonymous Commentary on Kitab al-Tadhkira by Ibn Mattawayh. Facsimile Edition of Mahdavi Codex
514 (6th/12th Century). Introduction and Indices by Sabine Schmidtke. Tehran Iranian Institute
of Philosophy & Institute of Islamic Studies, Free University of Berlin, 2006. (Series on
Islamic Philosophy and Theology. Texts and Studies; 1)

Khulasat al-nazar. An Anonymous Imami-Mu?tazili Treatise (late 6th/12th or early 7th/13th century). Edited
with an Introduction by Sabine Schmidtke and Hasan Ansari. Tehran Iranian Institute of
Philosophy & Institute of Islamic Studies, Free University of Berlin, 2006. (Series on Islamic
Philosophy and Theology. Texts and Studies; 2)

Omar Hamdan & Sabine Schmidtke ?Qadi ?Abd al-Jabbar al-Hamadhani (d. 415/1025) on the
Promise and Threat. An Edition of a Fragment of his Kitab al-Mughni fi abwab al-tawhid wa l-?adl
preserved in the Firkovitch-Collection, St. Petersburg (II Firk. Arab. 105, ff. 14-92).? M?langes
de l?Institut dominicain d?Etudes orientales 27 (2006) (in press).

Rukn al-Din Ibn al-Malahimi al-Khwarazmi Kitab al-Fa?iq fi usul al-din. Edited with an
Introduction by Wilferd Madelung and Martin McDermott Tehran Iranian Institute of
Philosophy & Institute of Islamic Studies, Free University of Berlin (in press)

Rukn al-Din Ibn al-Malahimi al-Khwarazmi Tuhfat al-mutakallimin fi l-radd ala l-falasifa. Edited
with an Introduction by Wilferd Madelung, Hasan Ansari and Sabine Schmidtke. Tehran
Iranian Institute of Philosophy & Institute of Islamic Studies, Free University of Berlin
(forthcoming)

Rukn al-Din Ibn al-Malahimi al-Khwarazmi Kitab al-Mu?tamad fi usul al-din. Revised and enlarged
edition by Wilferd Madelung. Tehran Iranian Institute of Philosophy & Institute of Islamic
Studies, Free University of Berlin (forthcoming)

(iii) Studies

Sabine Schmidtke ?II Firk. Arab. 111 ? A copy of al-Sharif al-Murtada?s Kitab al-Dhakhira
completed in 472/1079-80 in the Firkovitch-Collection, St. Petersburg.? Ma?arif 20
ii (1382/2003), pp. 68-84.

Margaretha T. Heemskerk ?A Mu?tazilite Refutation of Christianity and Judaism. Two
Fragments from ?Abd al-Jabbar?s al-Mughni fi abwab al-tawhid wa-l-?adl.? In The Three Rings.
Textual Studies in the Historical Trialogue of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Eds. B. Roggema, M.
Poorthuis and P. Valkenberg. Leuven 2005, pp. 183-201.

Wilferd Madelung ?Abu l-Husayn al-Basri?s proof of the existence of God.? Arabic Theology,
Arabic Philosophy, from the Many to the One. Essays in Celebration of Richard M. Frank. Ed. James
Montgomery. Leuven 2006, pp. 273-80.

Wilferd Madelung & Sabine Schmidtke Rational Theology in Interfaith Communication. Abu l-Husayn
al-Basri's Mu?tazili Theology among the Karaites in the Fatimid Age. Leiden Brill, 2006.

Sabine Schmidtke ?The Karaites? Encounter with the Thought of Abu l-Husayn al-Basri (d.
436/1044). A Survey of the Relevant Materials in the Firkovitch-Collection, St. Petersburg.?
Arabica 53 (2006), pp. 108-42.

A Common Rationality. Mu?tazilism in Islam and Judaism. Eds. Camilla Adang, Sabine Schmidtke &
David Sklare. W?rzburg Ergon (Istanbuler Texte und Studien) (forthcoming)

Gregor Schwarb ?D?couverte d?un nouveau fragment du Kitab al-mughni fi abwab al-tawhid
wa-l-adl du Qadi Abd al-Jabbar al-Hamadani dans une collection kara?te de la British Library.?
M?langes de l?Institut d?Etudes Orientales 27 (2006) (forthcoming)

Gregor Schwarb ?Sahl b. al-Fadl al-Tustari?s K. al-ima.? Ginzei Qedem 2 (2006) (forthcoming)

Thomas Hildebrandt Neo-Mu?tazilismus? Intention und Kontext im modernen arabischen Umgang mit dem
wiederentdeckten rationalistisch-theologischen Erbe des Islam. Leiden Brill (forthcoming)

Futher readings

http//www.muslimphilosophy.com/
amazone!

peace said, all,

I recommend a forum search as this topic has come up before. Here are some brief thoughts or avenues to explore

What EXACTLY did God say would be guarded?

Do the differences violate what was said to be guarded?

Are the differences significant enough to change the meaning?

Have the differences been cross-referenced to see if they/some can be invalidated?

If I change my copy of The Quran right now, have I proven God's promise wrong?

Is the original Quran still extractable?

The original Quran did not have vocalisation marks, so how valid is it citing errors in this aspect?

What do you think about about this findings Wakas

http//my.algeria.com/forums/religion-re...stion.html

http//dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/18...ption.html

?

Isn?t it interesting that an article of Aidid Safar opened Layths eyes (he posted this somewhere), and that there is a direct link from Safars site to the site of the Mohammad-hater, Rafat Amari. I?m not accusing anyone, but is it possible that these Mecca-Speculations are not more than a "conspiracy" made up by Christian missioners?

Despite the fact that there is some kind of "proofs", I can?t imagine how Muslims could "forget" that the pilgrimage has to be done in Jerusalem?

slm

I know what he's talking about, brother. This is his own innovation, as Rashad Khalifa never started a group known as "Rasidiyyas". I was simply addressing the fact that he's spreading nonsense. Rashad Khalifa never started his own sect, just like Muhammad or Jesus never started their own religions called Islam or Christianity... Rashad Khalifa called his followers by many names (i.e. submitters, believers, God aloners, Quran aloners, etc.), but Rasidiyyas was definately not one of them... It's amazing how many people condemn Rashad Khalifa, a supporter of preaching the doctrines of "Quran alone", even the so-called "Quran aloners". In reality, people could learn a lot from Rashad Khalifa's teachings and example, especially concerning his concept of "GOD ALONE QURAN ALONE"...

Once I heard a similar story about Wehab

Hey Kadeen )

welcome to the Forum )

Peace Kadeen, and Welcome to the Forum!

Here are some good websites on considering the concept of "God ALONE Quran ALONE"

http//www.quranalone.com/
http//www.masjidtucson.org/index.html
http//www.quran-islam.org/208.html
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/index.htm

There are plenty of other ones too. I don't necessarily agree with every perspective of the website hosters, but I completely agree with the concept of "Quran alone", and I think these sites (and others) give a very good basis on this issue, giving plenty of necessary information regarding hadiths, sunna, and the Reading ("Quran&quot itself. If you'd like, you should check them out, and you'll find plenty of useful information...

Peace,

Ahmad

I thought he said he is Quran alone... why you are posting sites about the Rasidiyya-Sect?

Use the search possibility in the forum. ) I think we have every month the same Topic

I looked at the book, it is really hard to find some hadiths, maybe one could wrtie him an email in order to provide us with further references.

That is not the same hadith, nor is the meaning the same. This hadith is supposedly from Book of Nikah 352, yet it is nowhere to be found except in discussions relating to this particular book (Dual Islam).

Yeah, but its similar

Bukhary Volume 3, Book 39, Number 540

Narrated Abu Huraira

The people say that Abu Huraira narrates too many narrations. In fact Allah knows whether I say the truth or not. They also ask, "Why do the emigrants and the Ansar not narrate as he does?" In fact, my emigrant brethren were busy trading in the markets, and my Ansar brethren were busy with their properties. I was a poor man keeping the company of Allah's Apostle and was satisfied with what filled my stomach. So, I used to be present while they (i.e. the emigrants and the Ansar) were absent, and I used to remember while they forgot (the Hadith). One day the Prophet said, "Whoever spreads his sheet till I finish this statement of mine and then gathers it on his chest, will never forget anything of my statement." So, I spread my covering sheet which was the only garment I had, till the Prophet finished his statement and then I gathered it over my chest. By Him Who had sent him (i.e. Allah's Apostle) with the truth, since then I did not forget even a single word of that statement of his, until this day of mine. By Allah, but for two verses in Allah's Book, I would never have related any narration (from the Prophet). (These two verses are) "Verily! Those who conceal the clear signs and the guidance which we have sent down .....(up to) the Merciful.' (2.159-160)

http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/039.sbt.html

Bukhary Volume 7 (Nikaah), Book 62, Number 7

Narrated Said bin Jubair

Ibn 'Abbas asked me, "Are you married?" I replied, "No." He said, "Marry, for the best person of this (Muslim) nation (i.e., Muhammad) of all other Muslims, had the largest number of wives."

http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/062.sbt.html

slm

Selam Wakas,

The Philosophy of the Kalam. Harry A. Wolfson (PDF) http//www.muslimphilosophy.com/books/kalam.pdf

There you can find many very important (!) theological controversies about sunnism.

see also http//www.muslimphilosophy.com

and

Palvin, J. (2001). Sunni kalam and theological controversies. In Oliver Leaman, Syed Hossein Nasr (Eds.), History of Islamic philosophy (3rd ed.) (pp. 105-11. Qum, Iran Ansariyan Publications.

Selam,

About Ahl-Kalam and the Mutazilite theology read the book "The philosophy of Kalam" written by Wolfson, You can find the whole book online.

Selam Edip,

Kerem, the admin of alrahman.de, already informed me about Taslaman, and I asked him a few questions, but get unfortunately no response.

I once knew a Zlatan from Bosnia personally and I'm wondering if this could be the same one. He could be if he's between 18 and 23.

I dont think so, the Zlatan i mean is probably 34 years old today.

dont ruin his excitment about it, how do you know hes innovating, it would be nice to trust a little,

No proof, no trust police