The main issue here is to consider what "islam" could have been at the time of Muhammad.
We have have no evidence to assertain that islam as we know it today existed at the time of Muhammad. On the contrary, we have evidence to prove that "islam" evolved a lot between Muhammad and the 9th century. The first material evidence of complete qurans, hadiths books and sira date from the 9th century. What happened before ?

The Mount of Fig Trees, in Syria, still here today https//goo.gl/maps/aVLqr

Hi Jafar

About ALM

Runninglikezebras translated what I wrote in French about "ALM" into "God of salvation". One can also translate into "God of deliverances" (but "salvation" is very close to "deliverances&quot

ALM in Hebrew 'el lem?sh??t
A= alif = first letter of Hebrew 'el = Arabic il?h
L= preposition
M = first letter of m?sh??t

This can be found in Psalm 68,21 (or 68,20, depending on editions) "Our God is a God of Deliverances"
You can see it here
http//qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/psalms/68.html
http//www.messianic-torah-truth-seeker.org/Scriptures/Tenakh/Tehillim/Tehillim68.htm

The scholar who found this is austrian professor Kurt Hruby (he was catholic, born from a jewish mother, studied the Talmud at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and was a judaism teacher at the Catholic Institute of Paris). This can be found in Bruno-Bonnet Eymard's translation of the Quran (Le Coran, traduction et commentaire syst?matique, tome 1), also in Sami Awad Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh's translation (Le Coran, version bilingue arabe-fran?aise), and of course in Edouard-Marie Gallez's thesis (Le Messie et son Proph?te). Those are all French editions ...

The intepretation you provided as "silence" is also very interesting ! I will discuss it with Edouard-Marie Gallez. It also links the Quran to a jewish/aramaic background.

The scientific approach of the Quran is very new, lots and lots of things like this are to be discovered. Still, there is no scientific edition of the Quran yet. The work of Corpus Coranicum project is painstakingly slow ....

Peace,

Two american scholars are currently translating the book. The work of runninglikezebras speeds us the process. A finalized english version will be published within a month and half/ two monthes maximum (pdf document under creative commons licence, with nice layout, images, maps, photos, and internet links to sources and usefull information). It will be avalaible freely on my website, like the french edition.

@ Reel

Lots of your assertions need answer. Sadly, I do not master english enough to be proficient and clear about my positions and what I try to demonstrate in my book. Runninglikezebras is way more better than I in this ...

Also Quran doesn't give your so called Arab team the right to go around conquering.

I don't agree with you. See for instance sura 19,40 "We Only, We inherit the earth and all who are thereon, and unto Us they are returned." you will see in the third part of my book a short quranic study explaining this verse.

We heard this same story before which goes like "Hi, I am Abu Huraira who stayed with "Prophet" 2 years and hence I know more about his teachings and Islam than all his family members combined. I don't have any way to prove that whatever I am saying is true, but hey you must trust me what I say cuz I stayed with the Prophet 2 years."

This is not my position. Maybe I was not clear enough in my explanations

1. Gallez is by no mean a "prophet", just a scholar who based his work on facts and real historical material (ie contemporary sources of the events he tries to explain). Some of this material is rather new and revolutionnary (letters & documents that has been discovered lately, new methods and analysis, that haven't been taken into account by previous scholars. See Robert Hoyland's book, Seeing islam as others saw it - some of his work can be found here http//christianorigins.com/islamrefs.html# and here http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html and also in Alfred-Louis de Pr?mare's Les Fondations de l'islam / Islam's Foundations)

2. My book does not pretend to be something else than the vulgarization of his work. He asked me to do it because he doesn't have my "vulgarization" abilities, and because he is now too old and tired to cope with such a hard work. So, consider my book as his, he vouches for it.

3. Gallez has every way to prove what he asserted in his thesis and what's in my book, and so do I. Should you have been an honest critic, you would have then quoted my response to my "another reader" (namely "Averoes&quot, as you mentionned his comment on my website. I will try to translate my answer here, about the lack of reference in my writings about the links between islam and judeonazareneism. Here are some of them

• The term "Nasara" in the Qur'an, the meaning of his employment.

• The Nazarene figures in Islam as having instructed Muhammad (Waraqa, to a lesser extent Bahira). Islamic history cannot account for this.

• The concordance of Jewish eschatology (at least some scenarios) with Muslim eschatology and beyond, the strange similarity between numerous Muslim traditions with some Jewish traditions, such as the descent of the quran ("Isra and miraj" vs. Moses going to heaven to get the Torah from God) and others elements (texts, laws ...) ; the concordance of Nazarene worldview and that of Islam.

• The Syrian origins of the Qur'an and Islam the judeonazarene toponymy (place names, hills, temples, which are found in the quran, as Abil Bet Ma'ka Abu Kaaba, Abu Qobels ... ), the quraysh places names that are not found anywhere else (caravanserai of Quraysh, Quraysh River), archeology, with excavations that have shown that judeonazarenes lived in Syria and they lived together in same places with Arabs from the late 6th century, philology which showed that the language used in the quran is not south Arabic but north Arabic (see the work of Robert Kerr http//www.tingismagazine.com/article/the_language_of_the_koran.html) and the quran itself, which describes the pseudo-Meccans as inhabiting the Mediterranean regions (farmers, cattle breeders, fishermen) and describes their habitat (vegetation) as Mediterranean, as proved by Patricia Crone.

• The coincidence of the history of the Arab conquest of Jerusalem (including rediscovery by Alfred-Louis de Pr?mare) with the judeonazarene project to rebuild the temple, the sourced evidence of the presence of Jews with Arabs, the weirdness of the islamic testimonies of the reconstruction of the temple under Omar (built by and for Jews, whereas they are supposed to be hatred since the slaughter of Banu Qurayza in Medina)

• Chronicle of Pseudo Sebeos which I quote in The Great Secret of Islam

• New computer study of the quran (publication in 2014 of the thesis of Jean-Jacques Walter), which is a proof in itself (whereas the historical hypotheses are no more than probable hypotheses at most).

Etc, etc. To really dig the issue I recommend reading the thesis of Father Edouard-Marie Gallez, I have made no secret that it was essential for detailed understanding of what I describe in The Great Secret of Islam.

and also ...

1. Saying I worked with him and her does not make your claims trustworthy.

This is not "my" claim but his. But I know enough of his claim to defend it myself

2. The epicness of your response lies in the fact that you could not have any explanation for my comment on how you don't have knowledge about the geographic location you are linking to wars and conquest.

Knowledge about it comes from Dussaud's work, archaelogical excavations, Patricia Crone's work, interpretation of the quran and islamic traditions in the light of this new data, new and old sources that place the Ishmaelites in northern Iraq and Syria that are all cited in my book

3. Thanks for saying you are a journalist and that gives us more reason to be suspicious of your work.

How about being suspicious of Edouard-Marie Gallez's work ? He's no journalist but an independant scholar, not linked to any institution funded with saudi oil money or hindered by political correctness...

4. The period you are talking about has lots of historical uncertainties for which researchers do not claim anything they research on about it as ultimate truth. They use words like "maybe, perhaps, could be, probably, etc" in their writings to remain objective and honest. They do this even with the names of the battles.

Some historical uncertainties have been cleared out by Gallez's work. Lots remain also, but the point of Gallez's work (and also my book) is not to explain everything but to assert a general scheme, a sort of frame in which the events took place. This frame is 1) the transmission to some Arabs of a jewish-christian hope that the Messiah would come back as a political figure and that he would give the world to his true followers, ie Arabs and Judeonazarene 2) the appropriation of this hope by those Arabs, excluding the Judeonazarene, their former religion masters, from it. I believe Gallez has a very strong case to support this frame.

5. You talk about "God's chosen people" without explaining what that means. I know its definition, but won't give it to you.

Already explained it in the book, many times, from the jewish perspective, the judeonazarene one, the Arab one, the muslim one ...

6. You didn't ever study extremism linked to religions (how it happens, where it happens, etc)

I did more than study it I explained it with the idea of salvation and how it had been used (and still is used) as a political ultima ratio

7. Your http//legrandsecretdelislam.com/media/ pretty much sums up your actual intention.

You seem to know my intentions better than me !! How prescient of you ... Actually, I have no other intention than to bear witness unto the truth, or at least unto what little we can know of it based on facts (and not on an history that has been written centuries after the events it is supposed to describe). It's like I am just telling people that Santa Claus does not exist. Kids (and grown ups) might feel pain learning this, but still, even the hugeness of this pain does not prevent Santa Claus from not existing.

8. Your research work is mainly for those who have no idea about extremism found in other religions and tend to think all religions are violent because they just don't know about how to use agenda setting process for maximum gains.

"Extremism" does not mean anything at all. A french comedian told once a joke about real "extremist" christians, that they should be giving hugs and kisses to everyone according to their texts (he might not have known some american extremist "christians" ...). I tried to explain the real roots of violence in religion and in political-philisophical systems it is the idea that we can achieve a world freed from evil, from pain, from bad guys, that we can build a "better" world, that we can change the very nature of the world and of men, that there is a salvation that is achievable through politics and human force. I showed that it comes from the news ideas introduced by Jesus and christians, who had at that time no political agenda at all, but triggered all sorts of "extremisms" among others.

Hope my english is clear enough. Maybe I should quit debating since I feel I cannot express my ideas as well as I want to ... Maybe I should let Runninglikezebras do the talking. You tell me !

Peace.

@ Fusion

I am not "just compiling". I read, I listened, I understood, and I worked with Edouard-Marie Gallez to write my book.

The sources and arguments are scientific, logical, rational. There is no belief involved, only pure logic and scientific experimentation process 1) analyse available data, 2) state an hypothesis, 3) test it upon the facts that are known fore sure, and 4) assert it or repell it based on the results. There might be flaws which the scholars (and also I) haven't seen. Then tx for pointing them to me. I do not pretend to have "THE" truth, but only to present an hypothesis that is much much much more probable than the islamic story.

I considered also the islamic sources. They cannot compete with the historical data, they are mostly legend (based somehow on facts, but rewritten in order to fit an islamic point of view). For example, consider the story of the Elephant Battle. Sura 105 tells us about the "people of the elephant", who were beaten in a battle. The s?ra tells us that it occured before Muhammad's time, when an abyssinian king came with a war elephant to Makka to destroy the Kaaba. This can't be no elephant can cross the arabian desert. An elephant needs to drink at least 120 liters of water a day (and even more in a desert ...). Hence, this story from the s?ra (the hypothesis) does not fit the facts (deserts are too hot for elephants who need lots a water), and so it is a false story, a legend. Sura 105 must then mean something else ... Who were the people that used war elephants in late antiquity ? Who were those people that the Qurayshites might have encountered, given the Qurayshites lived in northern Syria ?

It's the same with the legend of the preislamic Makka the islamic hypothesis does not fit the known data ... We know of no ancient city built in a place without the means to sustain life (including trade activities). The places you mentionned (Riyadh, Kadhr) were not as barren a land as Makka there was water enough, recorded trade activity, oasis lifestyle. There were fruit trees and orchards in ancient Riyadh. Nothing like Makka where life cannot endure without help and supply from the outside (even the zam zam well is suspicious due to the regular flooding of the well, zam zam water is often poisoned, not fit for human or beast - there are numerous reports of pilgrims becoming badly sick because they drank this water !)

Peace.

The point is that your study lacks the proof for the existence of Makkah, except the muwaia story and the statement
"Really ? Would you live in a place that gets flooded on regularly basis ? Who would ?" This can not be taken as an argument,
there are many more places on earth difficult to survive through tough time.

I will continue to read your translation but we are entitled to have questions ..

cheers

Of course, my book raises many questions. I'll be happy to answer them as long as my poor english skills allow it.

But tell me, are they really many more places on earth mor difficult to survive than Makka ? Think about it

• no plants
• no wood
• no agriculture
• no game
• no food at all
• desert heat
• floods

Even the eskimos get to hunt seals or catch fishes ...

Everything in Makka had to be brought by camel back, from food, wood, heat materials to construction supplies (and it still has to be brought today ... Makka still doesn't produce anything at all). And we find no trace, absolutely no trace of all this trade in the ancient sources. The first mentions to a "city in the desert" date from Muawiya. Those are very scarce, very poor sources. The details about Makka start to appear in sources from the 8th century.

Tx for the link !

Peace.

My point is as Reel said, you should have conducted your study by visiting places, meeting with people, trying to understand the geography and then complete your book.

This is not my point, this is not my position. Let me be clear I am no scholar, no researcher. I am only a writer who tries to publicize / popularize the work of many real scholars and researchers (who have gone on the field - like Christian Robin, head of the arabic archaelogical studies of french CNRS). Mainly, my book is based on Edouard-Marie Gallez's thesis "Le Messie et son Proph?te / the Messiah and his Prophet". Look for his website here http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/

Peace.

After this thread, I am really interested to know the story of Makkah from History and archeological aspects? Is there a study done for this? This is a separate topic and the author should have focused on the facts rather than legends of muwaia.

I am the author.

The work on Makkah history has been done already. Look for it in the footnotes
Maurice Gaudefroy-Demombynes Le P?lerinage ? la Mekke. ?tude d'histoire religieuse, 1923 / The pilgrimage to Makka, a study of religious history (french)
Alfred-Louis de Pr?mare Les Fondations de l'Islam, 2002 / The foundations of Islam (french)
Patricia Crone Meccan trade and the Rise of Islam, Princeton University Press, 1987 & How did the quranic pagans make a
living ? (article http//www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20181949)
Edouard-Marie Gallez Le messie et son proph?te, 2005 / the messiah and his prophet (french), featuring a whole file on Makka history as an appendix

With the exception of Patricia Crone's work, this did not get much publicity since all those books are not "islamicly correct" and therfore not "politically correct". Which is why very few people know about the real history of Makka.

@ reel

I am the author of this "soap opera". I am very thankfull to Runninglikezebras for his translation. At this point, there are many pages left to be translated, including a short quranic study.

A new revelation that rhymes, can be memorized entirely by a 3 year old, finishes talking about 71 people exactly in 71 words and has built in firewall?

Wait for the rest of the translation, you will learn how the quran has been written and rewritten by grammar, rhyme and theology specialists, which is why many muslims today find its content "miraculous". No wonder they wrote it exactly for this purpose.

As for the writer, it is extremely clear that he knows nothing about the geography, living standard and past economy of Middle East. But again, history has a habit of violating even laws of physics. He didn't even take time to study what is in the Quran for which his narrative about it is snake oil.

What good is your judgement about my book, if you haven't read it entirely ? Especially the parts about the quran ? Be patient !

my point is that flooding can not be taken as an excuse or reason not to have makkah exists during the prophet's time.

Really ? Would you live in a place that gets flooded on regularly basis ? Who would ?

Flooding of kaba is not a big deal, I have been to makkah several times and the whole of makka was never in the flooded zone.

Have a look at the pictures. The whole of makka was flooded on a regular basis before the Saudis took some measure (huge tanks and reservoir to absorb the floods). And even with those measure the masjid al haram gets almost flooded from time to time
You can see it here with this video from 2011 https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=L38-VLgDh80
Or just google "makka flood" and lok for the pictures

Peace.

Olaf

@ good logic

Peace also,

Wait for the whole book to be translated ... You will get some answers.

For the dates we do not have the precise dates. This time used to be a black hole for historians. What Gallez has established is a general scheme that shed some light, but many things need to be precised by future work.

For the judeonazarene arabic texts there were several

• memory aids for arab preachers (Muhammad), which will form the ground for the writing of the Quran
• the translation of their aramaic lectionary in arabic language, namely "qorono" in Aramaic, or "quran" in Arabic. The "quran" that the islamic Quran refers to is this lectionary

Wait for the rest of the translation by runninglikezebra, it will be better explained

Me. The name is Olaf. I am no scholar, but a kind of journalist / self made historian. I have read many history and research work about islam origins, and then have written about it for the wide audience that do not read the scholars publications. A bit like Tom Holland - but I think my work is much more serious than "In the Shadow of the Sword". Specifically, my book is the popularization of the work of an amazing scholar, E-M Gallez. I have worked two years with him for this.

Running like Zebras is translating my book. I have written it in French. It is based on the work of many scholars, mainly Edouard-Marie Gallez, from Belgium (also Patricia Crone, Manfred Kropp, Robert Kerr, Alfred-Louis de Pr?mare, Jean-jacqus Walter).