Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage. (Quran 4829)

I see some people here still trapped in error way of thinking which I think should be eliminated completely when we choose to become a "Quran only" muslim.

Imagine a conversation between a non-muslim with a muslim like this

Non-muslim Do we allow to give coke to a baby according to Quran?
Muslim I don't find specific verse about that
Non-muslim OMG! so muslims are allowed to give coke to they baby? how can Quran doesn't forbid such dangerous practice? We know it can harm a baby badly right? Quran is so evil!
Muslim (in his mind) It so awful! it's a shame! There should be a verse that ban such thing. I have to find one! or... maybe I can force a verse as if it support the opinion of not letting a baby drink coke.

You can find error way of thinking on conversation above right? You may change "give coke to a baby" with "texting while driving" etc, etc. The same error way of thinking seems happened here hmm

Ladies and gentlemen, you don't need verse of Quran to claim that something is wrong

Maybe some of us react defensively regarding pedophilia issue because this issue is often used to attack Islam by saying that prophet Muhammad did it. For me pedophilia is unwise practice and for some extent could be banned. If one ask my opinion regarding story about prophet Muhammad I will simply answer that I can't comment on it because (hi)story is easy to fabricated.

Peace peace

They were women of marriageable age not underage girls

I don't think that word "mar'at" itself indicating that the female is in marriageable age or not. Anyway, my point by quoted verse 2827 and also 2237 was to show that there are two possible person who will act as party of marriage contract on female side, i.e. the woman itself, or her guardian (wali).

46 and test ye of the bereaved until when attained they of the marriage so if perceive you from them right way of/rational so deliver ye of to them wealth theirs and not thou eat/consume ye it wastefully and hastily of lest/that grow up they of and who be ample of so should refrain and who be poor of so let eat/consume in the fair manner so when deliver you to them wealth theirs so witnesses ye of upon them and sufficient in/by the god reckoner of

46 indicates that Quran recognize marriageable age which merely a social concept. God didn't create it, He only show us that He know there is such concept in society. As I stated before, determining the minimum age of marry is just common in most societies/countries. Our common sense agree that marriage is not for too low age person, thus its requirement need to be regulated.

However, if let's say a society believes that the lowest age for a girl to marry is 13, then when a man marries a 12 y/o girl through her father, he and the girl father are broke social consensus (or maybe state law), but we can't say that they broke Quran 46. It's just unrelated. God didn't state that one who under certain age is forbidden from marriage in that verse, even the "marriageable age" itself is not His creation, it's just a social concept!

621 and whom more unjust than whom has fabricated about the god lie of or deny in signs his surely he not succeeds the wrongdoing

If you impose saying that God prohibit girl under certain age for marry, which in fact there is no verse that solidly supports such opinion, therefore the verse above is for you.

According to you the woman's / girl's agreement is not needed either.... We have superior men's who will look after our lives and destinies. And if you are a little girls, what can I say? You can perfectly know by then if you want someone for marriage or not...

So lucky you are, men/boys, you have a Quran full of rights only for yourselves giveup

Woman consent is needed when she act as party in the marriage contract. But when her father or her guardian (wali) who act as party in the marriage contract (because she hasn't reach her adulthood) then it is her father/guardian consent that is legally needed. That is just simple legal thought. Nevertheless, a wise father/guardian surely will figure out whether his daughter agree with his plan or not.

Actually it's not about gender, but about involving immature person in a contract. The same apply in case of a 19 y/o girl and 7 y/o girl making legal contract to be a movie star. The first one will signed the contract by herself, and for the second one it is her father/guardian who will signed the contract.

Whaaaaaaaaaaat o

There is not an ?age for marriage? in Quran?

Maybe Quran wants you to use COMMON SENSE. brickwall

The following are from QURAN

If there is an age for asking permission in these cases, why there is not an age for marriage? Is marriage less serious?

What maybe will make you jump out of your seat is there is no prohibition to smoke next to nuclear reactor in Quran! rotfl

It's so easy to pick example of some issues out there that is more serious than some of what is written in Quran. Please don't think like that anymore. God rules on His book whatever He want to rule, not whatever we might think important.

No guardian of any woman, woman not child, can arrange a marriage without her consent. No man can marry a woman without her consent. It is upon him to make sure that she consents. And in the aya you quoted where does it say that it is her guardian? It does no say that. He may merely be an attorney or some other commissionned. And even if he is a guardan he cannot contrat a marriage for the woman without her consent.

See my answer above.

Of course there is no place for pedophilia in Qur'an.

The Qur'an orders everybody to not marry women without acknowledging their faculty of consent. To have the faculty of consent you have to be of certain age, so that indeed you know what you are contracting. It is a must.

Salaam

As I stated before, for girl who doesn't yet reach maturity age can be married by her guardian that in most cases is her father.

What I bold at verse below is guardian of the woman. Relevance of guardian in this case of course because the woman hasn't reach age of maturity (or in some cases because she has weak understanding).

And if you divorce them before you have touched them, and you have already appointed for them a marriage-portion, then one-half of what you have appointed, unless it be they make remission, or he makes remission in whose hand is the knot of marriage; yet that you should remit is nearer to godfearing. Forget not to be bountiful one towards another. Surely God sees the things you do. Q 2237

You can also read in the Quran a story when Musa's father in law married his daughter to Musa. From the narration of the story we know that the bond is just made between them two.

He said, 'I desire to marry thee to one of these my two daughters, on condition that thou hirest thyself to me for eight years. If thou completest ten, that shall be of thy own accord; I do not desire to' press hard 'upon thee. Thou shalt assuredly find me, if God wills, one of the righteous.' Q 2827

In conclusion, maturity is not an absolute condition for girl to marry. Therefore, there is no prohibition to marry immature girl according to the Quran per se.

Regarding this issue we first need to make a distinct standpoint whether we want to talk about Quranic norm, or about other social norms.

Quran clearly doesn't state any prohibition concerning age of marriage. So we can't say such man-made term "pedophilia" is forbidden based on Quran per se. Finish. Full stop.

However, just because Quran doesn't forbid something it doesn't mean we can't generate any regulation about that. Remember that Quran only rules some particular norms and doesn't intended to rule all of human affairs in full details. Thus, people need to use their mind to making rules about what they think need to be ruled as long as don't contend with Quran.

You may eat halal foods, but you will be arrested by police if you eat them by sitting down on the middle of main street at busy hours with all your family. The reason is disturbing public order. Same apply to our topic. I think none of wise government will allow marriage in too low age. Sex activity even can cause fatality on little girl. In fact it is common for countries to rule age of marriage. In Indonesia a man need to reach age 19 and woman need to reach age 16 (which still considered as "immature" if we use 18 as maturity age) to marry. In my opinion, regulation regarding age of marriage should be as low as tolerable because its about determining "minimum age", not "ideal age".

getting married with with 60 years old man with 20 years old girl is also a bad choice

Can you explain what is bad thing about that?

As long as both of them feel fine, it's just fine. The old man get advantage of the youth of his wife, and the young girl get advantage of the wise, patient, and maybe the prosperity of her husband. What's the problem?

If let's say the old man is died 5 years later when she is still 25, then if God willing she can marry other man. What's the problem?

If let's say after married for a few years the old man health is decreased badly then his wife can't "be satisfied" by him anymore, she has option to propose divorce (with all its legal consequences). What's the problem?

Please broaden your perspective about life instead of being so judgemental by saying this bad and that bad based on popular opinions.

Hi,
Is it true that Quran allows intercourse and marriage with girls? I think chapter 65 allows it.

Thank you

The law principle is everything allowed unless stated otherwise. So many things we allowed to do in life (do gym, making apps, go by plane, playing football, etc) not because Quran allow them, but because Quran didn't forbid them.

Marry a female who did not yet menstruate is not forbidden, so we may do so. Since marriage is a law bond, then it can only initiated by adult people. Therefore, young girls can only be married by her parents. So it depends on the parents whether they will let their girl marry in young age or not.

Quran 654 itself doesn't specifically allowing marry immature female, but it indeed can be used in case of divorced of a didn't yet menstruate female.

thank you for your answer, timotheus

actually i share your opinion. considering the other meanings of waliy, it tend to mean 'close friend' in term of friend. what make me still doubt is there is no translation that exactly state 'close friend'. some translation that use friend rather than ally just write it as 'friend', not 'close friend'.

Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers...

Pickthal O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers...

Arberry O believers, take not the unbelievers as friends instead of the believers...

my arabic-indonesian dictionary also state 'friend' (beside ally, protector, helper, and lover), not 'close friend'.

Liberating slave IS a good deed, but God never oblige believers to free their slave (become slave-free community). If so, we won't find so many verses indicating that believers and even prophet Muhammad have 'possessed people' (MMA).

Don't let satanic propaganda through its powerful media contaminate our mind in deciding what is right and what is wrong.

Flea of Qur'an,
'Kum' in Ma malakat aymanukum means YOUR so Ma malakat aymanuKUM cannot mean right hands possession of others but YOUR right hands possess. In 425, ma malakat aymanuKUM is used.

'Kum' is a plural term, so it refers to believers community as a whole (singular term is 'ka&#039. In other words, 'possessed people' (MMA) on that verse refers to 'possessed people' (MMA) in believers community in general.

379 It is not for any human being that God would give him the Book and the authority and the prophethood, then he would say to the people "Be servants to me rather than God!" Rather "Be Devotees for what you have been taught of the Book, and of what you have studied."

That verse tells that it's not deserve for a prophet to ask people to worship himself rather than God. It's not relevant to our 'MMA' discussion.

2622 "And is it a favor that you taunt me with, so you could continue to enslave the Children of Israel?"

You said that 'God frowns upon Pharaoh for enslaving', but the verse doesn't say it at all. How could you fabricating lies against God?!

249 And We saved you from the people of Pharaoh, they were afflicting you with the worst punishment; they used to slaughter your children, and rape your women. In that was a great test from your Lord.

'rape your women' will only be found on free-minds translation. I shared with other translations 'let your women live' which I think more accurate according to the original text. Anyway, you said that 'God frowns upon Pharaoh for raping women', but the verse doesn't say it at all. How could you fabricating lies against God?!

Imagine if your state and the neighboring state are waging wars against each other, your state loses and your mother, sisters or any close female relatives of yours are taken as slaves,since you highly condemns prohibition of slavery and support sex with female slaves, you would allow the slave owners to have sex with them huh?

Unfortunately, it's not up to us to control how our enemy should treat us in case they defeat us )
Your question is so silly and unrealistic.

Do you think the US gov will ask the taliban's family 'excuse me madam, may I treat your husband like a shit in Guantanamo?' What a world!

Salaam,

Well, I meant more than that. It is not conditional according to you?

God bless you

Peace,

The condition is you only may have max of 4 wives at the same time.

If we set aside the 'polygamy' term for a while, what actually happen is simply a marriage. But in this case the man has already wife instead of single. And God never forbid a married man to marry other woman.

If God frowns upon Pharaoh for ENSLAVING, RAPING WOMEN and God commands people to FREE THEIR SLAVES so where is space for slavery here?

Please show me the verse stated that God frowns upon Pharaoh for ENSLAVING, RAPING WOMEN. And verse that God commands people to FREE THEIR SLAVES.

If in 425, God prohibits ILLICIT SEX with those whom your right hand possess, that means you cannot have sex with your right hand possess.

It's called illicit sex if one do it with someone else slave. That's why in 425 one need permission from her (slave) master. It indicates that the slave is not his own possession.

In case she (slave) is his own slave, he may have sex with her => again, please read 236 and 7030

As far as I know, in the Quran, the punishments are always an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Murderers deserve death penalty, and oppressers / tyrannies also deserve death.

So, you confirmed that there is death punishment in Islam. Good.

Man have more than one wife.

Peace

MA MALAKAT AYMANUKUM means Those whom YOUR right hand possess.
In 425, GOD says marry ma malakat aymanukum and NOT for illicit sex. So what the heck is this illicit sex?

Illicit sex on that case is committing adultery with slave.

Your high support towards having sexual intercourse with slaves really remind me of hadiths that say men may have coitus interruptus with female captives.

I don't care what hadith says. All my argument is based on quran verses, not other source.

No wonder some people see islam as sex-maniac religion. I feel bad for people like you.

True believer shouldn't care too much of what people may think as long as he stick on God's guidance (quran).

Islam applies death penalty for certain crime. People want to say that Islam doesn't respect human right? Go ahead!
Islam stipulates that in some cases male has some advantages comparing to female. People want to say that Islam is unjust? Go ahead!
Islam allows polygamy. People want to say that Islam is retarded? Go ahead!

True muslim worshiping God, not people's opinion.

Just because slavery has already occurred since thousands of years ago, doesn't mean it is okay. GOD says many times in the Qur'an persecution / oppression is worse than murder. If GOD says to free slaves that means you must free your slaves. No slavery in islam. If islam allows slavery, then GOD would have not condemned Pharaoh in the Qur'an, instead GOD would have said bravo to Pharaoh.

I never said that something is okay just because it occurred since long time ago, it so absurd! I just explain a bit historical background of slavery so we get a more precision view about it.

Based on quran, slavery (possessed people) as a social reality never be forbidden. Quran admits such reality and regulates it with certain rules.

Pharaoh condemned because he denied God's verses and he proclaimed himself as deity/god. That is nothing to do with the fact that he enslaved israelis.

Even prophet Salomon have one (3413)

Man of faith said But if you have an intention to marry the wife I think it is okay to have sex.

what??!!

diamantinehoneybunch said Where in the Quran does it say you can have sex with your own MMA? 425 disproves your argument.
Women may also have their own MMAs as per Qur'an. So according to you Qur'an also permits women to have sex with their MMAs?

It said at 236, 7030

425 is about marry the MMA. Sure one have to marry her first if she doesn't his own slave. I've said it before.

Let's see general context of MMA in quran regarding to marriage and sex (43, 424-25, 3350, 3352). From that verses we know that the context is relationship between male master with his female MMA. So, although woman is also can have a slave she doesn't allowed to have premarital sex with him.

Lena said If it does refer to slavery, how can it be just, righteous or acceptable for a person to even have slaves if freedom and justice is the core values of Islam?

Islam never create slavery. It existed long time before Islam and happen in many part of the world. Its age is as old as war because most of slaves come from unredeemed war captives. I don't think to keep a captive in prison for life like wild animal is better than to involve him to society as a slave (mostly will be placed as maid or manual labor).

However, Islam has some policy that saw sympathy to slaves i.e. to do good with them, to free them as expiation, etc.

Then how about "malakat aymanukum" in verse 2431??

To who we must maintain the oath, posses right hand is not limited on slave, I'm still on research, but if you have an idea I appreciate this.

Salam

there is no issue if we consider "malakat aymanukum" in 2431 as slave.

ayman (right hand) refer to power/authority. "malak" is possess.
the keyword is actually "malak/possess".
what kind of people is possessed by other people? Answer slave.

our wife, our maid, our worker is not our possession.

peace

Ma malakat aymanukum = what your right hands possess = those who are rightfully yours.
Is it against God's Quranic laws to have sex with a boyfriend / girlfriend who is rightfully yours i.e not in the categories 1, 2, 3 above?

Your girlfriend is NOT your possession. She is a free people with her full of right.

Person who fit the "ma malakat aymanukum" category is slave. And yes you may have sex with YOUR OWN slave. To have sex with someone else slave, you have to marry her first.

Hi all. I have two questions for you

1.What is punishment for adultery in quran ? Is it 100 lashes or house arrest ?

2. Does this part of verse (with bold) approve verses abrogation which is supported by sunni muslims?
   415
   any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

"Allah ordain for them some (other) way"- does this mean that after this verse God sent a "better verse" and we should not follow this verse ?

peace

1. according to 242 the punishment for adultery is 100x lashes (both to male and female)

2. "or god makes for them a way" (415), for example her husband divorce her so she hasn't being confined for life. that's a way from god.

peace amina
welcome

welcome sist! i also new in this forum although not new in quran-only idea.
the braveness to question our faith is indeed the door of the truth. congrats!