There seems to have been a forum glitch and my last two posts got deleted from this thread. It seems some others also.

Yours are worth reading so re-post them, and forget about ours/others.

From 19.org

RAAAJAH ?Is Edip following this Ayat while inviting people to draw NEGATIVE IMAGES OF PROPHET peace is upon him? What message he is trying to get across and how??

EDIP Thanks for the reminder? I am going to correct that part. I agree with you that such an invitation is not appropriate and I would never publish such disparaging cartoons, especially against any prophet or messenger of God. Knowing that many islamophobes, warmongers and provocateurs have already published many ugly cartoons based on hadith stories, I deleted that paragraph from the terms of the competition.

Thanks! that was a wise and nice decision welcome

MAha

Dude its so obvious that you was raised as an hadither.
Stop making personal attacks on people and involve their grandfathers in the discussion.

Fine if you love Muhammad, but I don't love muhammad - for god sake I never met that man. Then why shall I force myself to love someone I never met or someone I don't have any knowledge about?

Keep your love to yourself and stop expecting others to love Your idol.

No, I never was raised as Hadith follower! WRONG! You seriously lack sense of judging people from their writings.

No one is asking you to love any one but

I Love Muhammad! Peace is upon him

Zulf

after the comments of Edip I think i need not to answer your post.

from
Edip
So, please write more stories for us... Especially the ones that distorts the facts, the ones that fool the infantalized readers. People love stories.. They are brought up with stories since their baby years. Please do not forget to add some lullabies too... Much better than dealing with numbers!

To Edip
So, please arrange more number games for us... Especially the ones that distorts the facts, the ones that fool the infantalized readers. People love numbers.. They are brought up with numbers since their baby years. Please do not forget to add some fancy 19 too... Much better than dealing with stories!

Dear Zulf

It is important to understand the different parties involved in these issues. The party that carries out an insult (like that movie for example), is NOT out to insult the prophet. This is very important to understand. They are out to insult the followers of the prophet... i.e. those who so easily get insulted. So it is not about the prophet in the first place, but the prophet is only used as a tool to enrage the followers. Unfortunately, the prophet's followers fail to understand this. Had they been understanding this and had they been mature about themselves enough, having good self-esteem and a solid character, the insulting party wouldn't have been able to achieve anything. Instead the followers make it all about the prophet, and not about themselves (even though it is ALL about their own identity)

The same can be said for the cartoon invitation of EDIP. "prophet is only used as a tool to enrage the followers" deliberately. His intentions are very clear from his writings his speeches and his debates and you are just playing Kings knight here.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the 19.org cartoon invitation has anything to do with the movie "innocence of muslims" as such. Let's separate the two things. Had our discussion been the same if this movie had never been created? The cartoon arguments still stand, and are not part of the movie issue.

You stand corrected! we cannot separate the two; both insult the Prophet and his followers, both make mockery of Prophet and his followers.

If you could just sincerely answer my 1 question after reciting the beautiful verse of Quran and stop defending this person without knowing his intentions, I will be grate full to you, let us see how Balanced you are

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious For thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 6125

Is Edip following this Ayat while inviting people to draw NEGATIVE IMAGES OF PROPHET peace is upon him? What message he is trying to get across and how?

Well, that's how I see it. Others may of course disagree, and that's ok.

Yeah that's ok buddy.

This one?

http//www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles/Assets/Richmedia/Image/AD200810230991625AR.jpg

The Nation reports
In one of the oldest neighbourhoods in Jeddah lies a legend as old as time itself and one that is crumbling away into oblivion - the tomb of biblical Eve. As the holy month of Ramadan enters its final days, some Saudi families in Jeddah will be visiting the graves of their loved ones as part of their Eid tradition that revolves around love, joy and kinship - with one particular mother remembered along with the rest. "My mother's grave lies in the same cemetery as that of the mother of all humanity, Hawa ," said Sami Nawar, the general director for culture and tourism in Jeddah. For the sceptics, there is an actual sign marking "Our Mother Eve" graveyard hanging on the main green metallic gate of one of the oldest cemeteries of Jeddah in the heart of the Al Balad neighbourhood. Mr Nawar is from one of hundreds of Saudi families that have relatives buried in "mother Eve's graveyard", and he takes it upon himself to inform Saudi visitors to this site, keeping the "legend" alive even in the absence of scientific proof. "Famous Arab travellers like Ibn Battuta and historians that have passed through here hundreds of years ago and even some of Prophet Mohammed's companions have made reference to Eve's tomb in this area," said Mr Nawar, who explains that the name of the city itself - Jeddah - if pronounced a certain way, means "grandmother". "And who is the grandmother of everyone?" he said, unable to hide his enthusiasm for the legend."If it is a lie, then it is a thousands of years old lie," he said. Mr Nawar figures the tomb was 120 metres long, three metres wide and six metres high - that is before it began to fall apart through the centuries. "It is a shame, all we have now is its location, the main gate and stories of its existence," he said, dating the last pieces of the tomb's skeleton to the 1920s. The common legend that Eve was more than a 100 metres tall is unlikely, according to Mr Nawar, who said he has an old photo showing that inside the large tomb was an average-sized tomb. "I am still researching this, it is hard given that there is no one alive who remembers the tomb as it was ," he said. The Quran, like the Bible and Torah, tells the story of Adam and Eve and how they were expelled from Paradise after disobeying God by eating the forbidden fruit. There is no mention of where they ended up on earth, but according to Arab tradition, it is believed that Adam and Eve led separate lives. Adam went to Makka, 70km away from Jeddah, where God ordered him to build the Kaaba, the sacred black rock that Muslims around the world face during their five daily prayers; while it appears Eve lived in the area known now as Jeddah, the entry point for pilgrims heading to Makka.

Anyway wish you good luck but as Yousaf said archaelogical proof is very important.

God himself does not want idiots to defend (more accurately, pretend to defend) God against other idiots in the mud.. God wants intelligent people to leave the presence of lowly people. That is it. None can harm God nor can harm dead people

When some one starts calling himself intelligent and others lowly then the time is very near, which history shows us either he will go insane or announce his Prophet hood.

My Prophet Muhammad Peace is upon him is not dead and niether is any soul, they have tasted death and mutaion has taken place.

I just said some bad words for Zulf's grand father, to check the reaction and first reaction was from a person who is instigating Muslims by Insulting the personality whom they love more than their parents.

You called me Idiot and low people. Imagine when you ask for negative images of Prophet peace is upon him what will we call you?

We have to see clearly what's going on here. Are we to sugar-coat and give excuses for what traditional Islam is promoting, or are we to promote what the quran is saying? You cannot do both! The negetive half of the cartoon would only serve the purpose to expose the FALSE things that people attribute to Allah (along side the positive cartoon). The point is to show the difference, which is the reality. How can this be bad? Should we be more protective of what people falsely invent in the name of Allah, or should we be promoting the truth as given by Allah? This is what it is all about. Is Allah's message more important or is the fairy tales of the "Ummah" and the self proclaimed Islamic priests more important?

Now let us take your point # 5

The purpose of negative half you have mentioned can be achieved only through

MOCKING prophet through cartoons the way Edip wants, try to understand there are many better better ways. This person is asking for Negative images of Prophet, the same images which have taken lives of more than 100 people till now and billions of collateral damage. To EDIP to care about any one's sentiments is of no worth as I have quoted him,

Allah's message is more important off course but not the way EDIP wants it by mocking Prophet peace be upon him in the name of Quran alone and taking advantage of "INNOCENCE OF MUSLIMS"

Dear Raaajah,

1. What do you mean "if my father and grand father could be insulted"?

I know it is hard to understand for the people who have closed their eyes and ears well let us just see

Zulf Your father was a Bastard! a womanizer and pedophile. What will be your reaction to this statement

In the movie they several times call the Prophet that and I do not agree, I am angry I really am angry along with billions of Muslims, because even if some one says that to my own grand father even though his body is not here. I am still angry because that is an allegation which he cannot defend I am the one who will defend it by Pen, by protest. when some one calls the Prophet Bastard he very well knows that he can bring no harm to the prophet he is just propmting the Muslims for violence.

Similarly Edip is doing that by starting cartoonist campaign.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 177
Narrated 'Aisha
Abu Bakr admonished me and poked me with his hands in the flank, and nothing stopped me from moving at that time except the position of Allah's Apostle whose head was on my thigh.

I will just reply to all of these repeated hadith by missionary sites as soon as I am free, but for these two particular hadith, what do you find odd in it?

Narrated 'Aisha
that during his fatal ailment, Allah's Apostle, used to ask his wives, "Where shall I stay tomorrow? Where shall I stay tomorrow?" He was looking forward to Aisha's turn. So all his wives allowed him to stay where he wished, and he stayed at 'Aisha's house till he died there. 'Aisha added He died on the day of my usual turn at my house. Allah took him unto Him while his head was between my chest and my neck and his saliva was mixed with my saliva.

I would too like to be with my loved one at the time of death and may be kissing her. What do you want to point in this Hadith?

Salaam,
Dear Raaajah,
I guess you missed the whole point of my post.

No! it is you brother who have missed the point.

As a matter of fact all those stupid fools should be burning effigies of Imam Tabari & co and calling them kafirs, murtids and issuing fatwas of blasphemy against them !
People deserve to know the truth and I'm sure at least by exposing those hidden enemies within our ranks we can bring a little change in the way people think and act on those satanic hadiths and seerah.

Why Imam Tabri? there is where a full stop enters for Quranists

Imam Tabri is a writer a Historian, He wrote what he heard or listened or what occurred during his times, Imam Bukhari reported what was in circulation at that time, in reporting that he took utmost care with the best tools available at that time (these tools may be laughed at by us today) the information they reported may be correct or it may be wrong. They did their job.

People deserve to know the truth and I'm sure at least by exposing those hidden enemies within our ranks we can bring a little change in the way people think and act on those satanic hadiths and seerah

Yes people deserve to know the truth is also my point. The Quranists have chosen an easier way, the entirely change the translation of Quran just to satisfy the present day criticism, for example if their is criticism on Houirs they deny such a thing in Quran, if there is criticism on Muhammad peace is upon him they say Prophet does not matter.

History is very important, Hadith and Sunnah are very important, the way Islam was practiced in his times is very important. We should study them for information.

The problem is with the laws made by men based on these reports and then Call it laws of Allah. For this we need to educate and that is all. If you say they don't want to learn then that is not true right here on this board there are many examples who have come to One God from practicing shirk due to educating.

good logic

Peace Raaajah.

Shall we pick and choose which hadith to accept or shall we ditch all hadith?

Why should we go either way? Please read my post before being so sentimental like typical so called Quran aloners,, try to understand what I am saying, brother.

Are we to accept the ones you listed without reference or arabic text or are they a repeated story like the others.

again you have to re-read my post.

Zulf
And also, Edip is NOT having intentions of instigating violence. He is not out there to insult the prophet (who is anyway dead and cannot be insulted). He is asking for POSITIVE cartoons, not ridiculing ones. That's hell of a difference. The difference lies in the intent. Edip's intention is good.

If your father and grand father could be insulted so can be Prophet, only the body vanishes and the mutation takes place. I think you have not read his following statement otherwise you would had not so unjustly defended his intentions.

while the right box should depict the negative images of Muhammad derived from descriptive or prescriptive hearsay statements narrated in Hadith and Sunna sources.

One who is drawing negative image even a child knows is from the stories and not from Quran because Quran doesnot carries such details, then to further highlight and pursue the Muslims for what Jews, Missionaries and others are doing, is it a GOOD intention? to divide further the Muslims and make them further angry are these good intentions?

Edip's intention is bad!

I firmly believe that... Not because I am smarter than them nor because I more fluent than them. Because by God's blessing I have discovered the message of monotheism... It is a powerful message. A liberating, unifying, enlightening, humbling, empowering and nourishing both the minds and hearts...

Waiting for the time when like your mentor RK you will announce prophet hood, the acceleration you have chosen shows you will surpass you mentor and may announce for yourself some thing superieor than your mentor.

may Allah guide us to true path

Were those (2) ayats not there, it would make no difference concerning what we believe and how we carry out our lives. What was in it can be pretty much found elsewhere throughout the Quran. Why is it that people make a big deal out of two tiny verses among more than 6,000 others, when they should be more focused on denouncing the countless hadiths that actually ridicule Mohamed and debase Islam like no other religion, and you're praising Mohamed now?

Further engaging with a person who thinks that deleting anything for personal agenda or whatsoever reason from Quran is a no big deal is just WASTAGE of time. To yours is Yours!
However if you claim you are not a Muslim and do not believe in the Quran then you can be answered as non believer.

Praise be to Muhammad Rasul and Servant of Allah!

Actually the Hadith you have quoted are from missionary sites, or from Edips site. I would love to comment on these Hadith if you can post the exact Arabic text with reference.Till then this is just a repeated story sorry to say.

I can quote in response

Your servants and your slaves are your brothers/sisters. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them.

Source Bukhari, Iman, 22; Adab, 44; Muslim, Iman, 38?40; Abu Dawud, Adab, 124

Ali reported that the last words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, were "The prayer! The prayer! Fear Allah concerning your slaves ! "

Source Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 158.

Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what Allah has created.' "

Source Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 188.

"The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). ?

Read the Quranic verse 33 of 24 alonf with above quoted Hadith and then the Hadith you quoted holds no air.

I already know about how deep and dark the hatred is. They own the media and everything else. Starbuck... bucks for the stars. They have their hand in EVERYONE'S COOKIE JAR. My father is into conspiracy theories, he also worked undercover for the pentagon and special communications for 20 years. Trust me, he has told me some interesting things and his ideas.

That is nice you almost have first hand information.

What I am stating is it makes it easy for us to be targeted when you can get your dirt from our own "sources"

Almost 99.9% Muslims believe Quran has not been changed, Yet there uncountable interpretations and understandings about it.

Hadith are basically reports, good reporter is one who reports what ever he hears without deleting, If a report says Muhammad Peace be upon married with a six year or nine year girl, it means this was in circulation at that time and they reported it, this report may be wrong or may be correct,. (this one does not seem correct as per Quran) there may be many Hadith which may be correct as per Quran, they provide and enhance our information.
To right away reject them or accept them as a divine source are of the same mentality.
People who believe in Hadith and Sharia laws based on them as divine laws are needed to be educated and not mocked as EDIP YUKSEL and others are proposing.

Will be waaaaaiting for that day when you post!

Hope you live up to your promises. And may Allah guide you to the fact that How much hatred and Jealousy do the Jews have against Christ, Christians, Muhammad and Islam. Movies, dramas, their books written by rabis are witness for it.

Maha you even don't know the difference between freedom of expression and garbage

read my post in the the following link

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604364.30

Meteora

Raaajah, Khalifa hasn't been mentioned once in the topic. Also no one comes close to praising this guy as the mainstream Muslims basically say things that pretty much deify Muhammad. You'll also notice Khalifa never claimed to bring anything new. He did a good job getting Muslims with a brain to only accept Quran (although much of his Quranic interpretation seemed traditional). Other than the 19 thing which was mainly trying to get the Muslim to further think the Quran was the only divine thing in Islam (not that all the arguments against the sunnah/hadith weren't enough), that's it.

You contradict your own statement,
He introduced system of 19 by deleting Ayats of Quran, if that was not new than hail to you!
He did a good job by starting deleting Quranic Ayats to fit his 19 theory.

Praise be to Muhammad Rasul and Servant of Allah!

Lol @ Zakir's fatwa on pig meat. It's so hilarious I dedicated 5 minutes of my time lol'ing to it,

May be you can come up with a better reasons for not eating PIG if Yes I would like to hear or may be you chose the easy way by upright denying such a thing in Quran as some of the modern day self proclaimed scholars of internet. What ever it may be here is what I said is

You might not agree with Zakir Naik but calling Ali Sina a serious debater is itself non seriousness

Cartoonist's only aim is to provoke Muslims to violence, they don't make cartoons/movies because they like Muhammad so very much. They managed to twist already twisted hadith just to insult Muslims and many Muslims fail to see that and fail to protest against that in civilized manner. Instead of enraging them with more cartoons, reasonable Muslim community should condemn violence and "provoke" Muslims to answer with peace.

Well said Shila