Salaam,

Dear J-K; your calling upon ayman on almost your every second post in this particular debate has said it all. Arguments of cOde are much stronger then yours.

Regarding your not taking Ahadith or any other Historical document as an evidence in support of 5 prayers when in contrast your have failed to bring up a single one in your support is not understandable.

Ayman?s theory is like a half boiled egg. No documentary support. He builds his whole edifice on calligraphy & inscriptions, which are lame without historical proofs. Prayers and practical prayers have been established in Jews the Bible talks about it, it talks about Kibla being a physical place and not metaphorical place. So this Kibla thing being physical is not invented by Arabs as protrayed by ayman.

The earliest dated hijz inscription was written by Zuhayr "at the time of Umar's death" in 24 AH, thus mentioning the name of the second caliph. This inscription, it appears, is destined to be the most famous of all the Arabic inscriptions as the UNESCO has added it to the Memory of the World Register of Documentary Collections. The Discovery Channel also mentioned the importance of this inscription in the news.
So therefore there was a person by the name of Umar who ruled the Arab at that time and not all these stories are fabricated as you and your friend ayman think.

Ayman?s theory is flawed and is destined towards disuniting Muslims.

Firstly Salaam brother coDe; In my post I was asking JK to answer your unanswered questions. I know it is he who has brought forward the claim thus burden of proof lies with him.

Secondly you must not be dishearted by Mr. Wakas's comments as his signature says

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify 1736, 20114, 3528, 496, 5811.

Thirdly It is very much true that almost all sects of Shia believe in 5 times prayers, it is only the timing issue and that too is not compulsory.

Salaam JK

Mr. CoDe has some unanswered questions

As you are claiming the prayers are not five so the burden of proof is on You? You should provide a historical or an otherwise proof for your claim.

When you keep on bringing the articles of ayman or others from this very site, that makes your case weak, because this is the very site which has put forward this claim.

Mr. Wakas; we donot know about the past of "CoDe" but at least in debate he is scoring well.

We shall also consider the punishments announced for taking "riba"

The punishment (burning in the fire in hell) for usury is mentioned in Surah # 2 Al-Baqarah - verse 275
after the verses advising charity and spending in the way of Allah. In verse 276, it is shown that Allah has blighted usury and made alms giving fruitful. Verses 278 & 279 order giving up what remains from usury or else have war with Allah and his messenger.
A painful doom is indicated in the verse 161 of Surah # 4 Al Nisa for those who take usury as also those who devour people's wealth by false pretenses.
In Surah # 30 Ar Rum - verse 39, it is indicated that charity is rewarding manifold and usury has no actual increase.

We shall consider that such harsh punishments are awarded at which places in Quran?

Is it for some one who wants to gain profit on his business or for some one who is taking advantage of poors and needy?

The major question is if we consider Riba all kind of interest than the present banking system fails? and if it fails what are the consequences?
Do we have other alternative system? if Yes! please discuss it, aside from just using arabic terms for english terms such Mudaraba, Murabaha, Gharar etc.

But the question is does the Quran not explains Riba in detail, Is it possible? Yes! Quran does it at some other places too where people of that time are familar with the "terms" used.
Riba is every kind of interest is a conclusion derived by AHadith and man made Shriah and not from the Quran.
Therefore as the man of today is more advanced in technology and techniocal skills then the man of 1300 years ago, and the needs of man of today are different from the man of 1300 years ago, we must arrive at the exact menaing of Riba what Quran meant because it is only Quran the words of which are considered to be eternal.

Salaam,

Dear brothers the question asked is "what kind of Riba is prohibited in Quran"?

For this we have to refer to the Quran first
By going through the nine Quranic verses (2275-280, 3130, 4161, 3039) about riba, one sees that they prohibit riba in very strong language, but do not define it.
But the general understanding which one can assume is of that which the author ofthis thread has understood and posted in his first post.

Many of us here donot believe in Ahadith, but we can use them as source of understanding the matters that existed at that time. As the most of complcations surrounding this riba problem is due to Ahadith.

That the ahadith reliably coming from the Holy Prophet did not explicitly define or clarify the concept of riba is also supported by a saying attributed to Umar

?Indeed the last of what was revealed in the Qur`an is the ayah of al-riba and indeed the Messenger did not explain it before he died.?

This may not be an authentic saying of ?Umar, but it, nevertheless, shows an early perception among Muslims that the Holy Prophet had not explained the meaning of riba before his departure from this world.

Salaam to all and specially to Mr. Layth

I am not complaining to any one it is Just to put my grevience on the record and make the record straight.
So, I was banned from the forum once again as at various times am banned from Sunni Christian and Shia forums, Ahmedi's and Atheists forums being an exceptions. The ban took place on 16th of January 2009 after my following comments

Rajah

Ignorance is tolerable but arrogance is not, you are an ignorant arrogant, dangerous for your husband and family, I am sure my sixth sense tells me if you were married you are divorced now and if you are not married yet may Allah help you!

but as usual before my ban I had some hard talk with one of the Moderators "Samia", the last time I got banned was after a conversation with "savage-carrot" a Moderator too and by chance both happen to be women.

Before I explain what I meant in my paragraph above, let me quote what Farida to whom the above paragraph was addressed wrote

Farida

Jaa!!! and ask your Javed Ahmed Ghamidi sahib to help you prepare a reply for your next post.NO! I have no desire to debate with those who do not have even have the manners to address women properly. Ok
May Allah help you to increase your knowledge for your own benefit.

The words i colored Red are extremly insulting and degrading if one understands Urdu and English. But astonishingly none of the Moderators found these words insulting, and Farida kept on posting after the Ban was enforced on Me.

Sikander may be a Urdu speaker got the insult and advised Ms. Farida

farida,

This was very arrogant and rude, Not expected of you

Secondly her aide and friend Elke also admitted that this was rude and show of arrogance, however she said it in taunting way (taunt towards all the men)

Elke

Yes farida, only men are allowed to be arrogant and rude !

Surprisingly none of the moderators noticed this. Well I am not bothered with this at all.
Instead I see that some real Intellectual minds post on this forum like "Arnold Yasin", "Edip Yuksel", though I strongly disagree with this person "Ayman" but he is genius, and some thoughts of Layth himself, and few others they are the only reasons to be here.

I have some suggestions Mr. Layth

1. The Moderator should be a person who is not short tempered.
2. Moderator should act as a Moderator.
3. Moderator should not so frequently indulge in the debates. I rarely see Nadeem, Nabi, or Tay posting, even if they, it is precise, others should follow this. May be they use some other Nicks.
4. Before you Ban some one give him a chance to explain, that is Islamic and democratic, autocratic type of behavior will just harm the site.

Now please read my quoted paragraph once again and judge weather it was a retaliation or an offence.

Thanks.

Salaam Siki,
and Thanks!

farida

Salaam,
What do you mean by "one of them"? Do you mean those learned women who can detect misleading interpretations of the Qur'an and are not leaning on men/mullah/Javed Ahmed Ghamidi sahib to explain the Qur'an to them?

If you call yourself learned then I doubt the credibility of the school in which you ever went to.

Quote
Not want to learn, share and discuss but want to debate, Ok Fari
See your own reflection there, It's you who is unwilling to learn and share, sister Hurufs excellent and unbiased interpretation of you simply ignored it because in your immature manner you refuse to acknowledge what Allah says in the Qur'an, like Brahmin Hindus you would rather take the twisted version to make you feel superior about yourself as the preferred gender.
6139. They say "What is in the wombs of such and such cattle is specially reserved for our men, and forbidden to our women; but if it is still-born, then all have share therein. For their attribution (to Allah), He will soon punish them for He is full of wisdom and knowledge.

don't try to drag others in this. Let us see how "learned" you are on your own??

farida

Quote
We discuss it in deatail! in my next post
Jaa!!! and ask your Javed Ahmed Ghamidi sahib to help you prepare a reply for your next post.
NO! I have no desire to debate with those who do not have even have the manners to address women properly. Ok
May Allah help you to increase your knowledge for your own benefit.

Ignorance is tolerable but arrogance is not, you are an ignorant arrogant, dangerous for your husband and family, I am sure my sixth sense tells me if you were married you are divorced now and if you are not married yet may Allah help you!

See I went to Ghamidi sahib, and he told me "whenever you want to convey the message of Quran to some one be polite, most of the women in our society are not happy with men, because of the treatment of women by men against the teachings of Quran and Islamic shariah. Never mind whatever she calls me or thinks about me, her attributes are with her and mine with me; but we have a job to convey, the understanding of Quran.

farida

NO! I have no desire to debate with those who do not have even have the manners to address women properly. Ok

Oh! so women are something special or are they superior to man or inferior to man?
because if they are equal to man than a "learned" person like you would had not written that "...... who do not have even the manners to address women properly".

It is not over yet.

Peace Raj-ah,

Although the details of morality, peace and justice are defined in the Qur'an, the basics are found within mankind itself (3030). A Kafir already denies these basics, and thus of course also the details as found in Revelation.

Peace on you too Arnold Mol

I still did not got it, sorry.

the verse you mentioned says

Therefore, you shall devote yourself to the religion of nature, Hanifa. Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by GOD. Such creation of GOD will never change. This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.

We do not know what is the religon of nature?

According to Ayat it is the Natrual instinct placed in to the people.....

That was my question, are the basics you are talking about the same within two different religons or groups or we have to follow what Quran tells us in this regard?

I mean to say for example is the Peace process similar for a Muslim and a Jainmath follower.

A person born in strict Buddhist family may not want even to hurt an animal, but a natrual instinct of a muslim makes him joy ful over slaughtering of a Goat or sheep during Eid.

Some Christians consider marrying their first cousins as sin, but natrual instinct of Muslims allows it.

These are just few examples due to shortage of time.

If you can i want a detailed answer.

Wakas has asked an excellent question.

Arnold Mol

Thus a Kafir is a person who denies morality, peace and justice and wants to hide these concepts and destroy life without any guilt.

Defined by whom?

Islam?

Therefore you mean to say that Kafir is a person who denies morality as Islam teaches us, peace as Islam teaches us and justice as Islam teaches us.

am i correct? if yes then I am confused.

liquiddharma

All human beings have an agenda. The only way you can be completely selfless is if God removes your soul from your body, because our physical body makes us inherently linked to this world and vulnerable to the temptations of Shaitan.

Correct up to some extent. For example It is hard to know who is tempted by Shaitan? the sunni's killing Shia's or vice versa.

However, from my contact with the the free minds translators, I don't think they have an agenda that misleads them as to the true meaning of the passage. Which doesn't mean I agree with them about everything, I just don't think the cause of whatever errors they make is ideological bias.

their agenda is very clear they want Quran to be acceptable to westerners, offcourse with good intentions, but they are doing the same thing Rashad Khalifa did by removing two verses to arrive at something unique. However quran does not agree with this logic and warns Muhammad in an ayat.

liquiddharma

As to the meaning of the passage - 'dependants' or 'right hands possess' or 'oaths possess'. Personally I think it means 'husband' - as in 236 and 7030 "guard your privates, except from your wives and your husbands". But people in medieval times wanted justification to rape slaves, so they twisted the meaning

Replacing the word ?husband? with ?right hand possess? makes things funnier than by using the word ?their dependants?. Just try it.

Salaam Ra-ja

You have not answered my question ?what you understand by the man being the head of the family. What would be his obligations and his privileges??
I do not want any explanation from Javed Ahmed Ghamidi sahib, it was you who volunteered to discuss this in detail with me (We will talk on this in detail.). So let me remind you that a Guardian is not same as the head of the family these are two different roles and have different meaning.

Quote
because God has given the one more preference than the other,
Pay attention to 432 no one gets preference for nothing, everyone has work to earn it, call it respect or status or obedience to God

Quote
After declaring that the husband should head a family,
Who made this declaration you?
Finally, I would like to ask you Do you have an experience of managing a family?

Salaam to you too...

Oh! I see, you are one of them.
Not want to learn, share and discuss but want to debate, Ok Fari
We discuss it in deatail! in my next post.

farida

Salaam Ra-ja
I understand the concept of Qwamoon but, could you explain what you understand by the man being the head of the family. What would be his obligations and his privileges?

Following is what I understand from Quran regarding man being the head of family, and I think Javed Ahmed Ghamidi sahib has some good explanations

(344)

Men are the guardians of women, because God has given the one more preference than the other, and because they support them. Consequently, pious women are obedient and keep their secrets for Allah also keeps secrets. And as for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and refuse to share their beds and punish them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Indeed Allah is Exalted and Mighty. (434)

4

And in no way covet those things in which God has bestowed His favors on some of you than on others to men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn. And ask God of His bounty. For God has full knowledge of all things. (432)

1. Men are guardians of the women in a social set up but in reward towards end it is the one who has fullfilled his responsibility smoothly.

Taking these verses as guiding principle in the organization of a family set-up, we see that a family is like a small organization. Just as every organization requires a head for its establishment and survival, this small organization also requires someone to take charge of its helm. Either the husband could have been bestowed with this responsibility or the wife. The Qur?an informs us that the husband has been entrusted with this responsibility. The expression ? ? has been used by the Qur?an to convey this purport. In Arabic, when the preposition ?? is used after the verb ??, the meanings of ?protection? and ?financial dependency? are incorporated in the verb. A person who is in charge is actually the protector and bread runner of the members that are entrusted in his responsibility.

After declaring that the husband should head a family, the Qur?an goes on to point out certain things to the wife for the smooth functioning of the institution of family, like in any organization of the world They are

1. Wives should be obedient and adaptable to their husbands.
2. They should keep the secrets of their husbands and protect their honor and integrity

Without obedience and adjustment, no system can work whether it be a state or any other institution. This is the natural requirement of any system. In the absence of these attitudes, no system can function and will ultimately disintegrate by giving way to indiscipline and anarchy.

Simple

It doesn't seem a righteous thing to do.

I wouldn't want to own another human being.

How ever you mightn't mind.

Simple I don't want to start it all over again, you have to read the previous posts of mine, IT IS NOT YOU AND ME TO DECIDE IF WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE QURAN.

you are against slavery fine. No one is arguing this but SLAVERY was a fact when Ayats came down and Slavery has been discussed in Quran, it has been discourged in Quran but not abolished.

Simple

Who cares slavery doesn't exist any more.

God Bless All.

Correct. But never try to change Quran according to one's own wish.

The transaltion of freeminds is flawed.

The purpose of ommitting the word slaves by progressivemuslims from quran is to present the Quran to west in acceptable form.

I donot agree to this logic nor does Quran.

liquiddharma
No, it really, really isn't and doesn't. The word "slaves" isn't there, that is just inserted by translators as an interpretation of the arabic. The free minds translation is thus

Brother freeminds translation is flawed and is done by keeping a specific purpose in mind as we will see, moreover to study and understand Quran please do not limit yourself to free-minds.

Free Minds 2431
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them place their covers over their chests. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not move their hips in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God all of you believers that you may succeed.

Brother just read the translation with open mind, and is there any justification for the words used there.
Who are still their dependants?????

Who might be? can you tell us? other than all the persons mentioned in the verse Who are dependents?

Farida

If that is the case then even the worst most despicable men are qwamoon over women including the believing, chaste women of high status and intelligence. They can be the most stupid ones on earth, yet have the right to demand obedience from women, who may disobey them only at the peril of physical violence.
This would contradict the teaching of the Qur?an that judges people only on their conduct, not on their gender status. I don?t think that there was a shortage of words for men in Arabic that God should chose the word rajl/rijaal which could mean in your

You are confusing two different things. In an organization some one has to be head, CEO, MD, similarly in a Family there must be a head for smooth functioning. Both men and women are told to fullfill some responsibilities and if they properly full fill them what are assigned by Allah then only men is head of the family. Over all a women can be a head of state.
We will talk on this in detail.

Simple

Salaams Br,

All chaste women are forbidden for us accept what will give us the oath of trust/ marriage......

If you aren?t up to the standards of chaste women then you can take from what is available
when and if you marry a girl who doesn't very much care about being chaste then there may be a degree of risk of them doing acts forbidden , but we should have known this from their background - so may be half the punishment.

It's like giving a known thief a bag full of coins for safekeeping and giving a righteous person a bag full of coins- would they deserve the same punishment if one of them stole.

I doubt if God would ever allow such a thing as slavery.

Salaam to you too...

To arrive at what i am trying to point out just read the part red of your post. During the process of pointing out I lost a would be friend Elke and made increased my enemies.

Before We discuss the Quranic Ayats with reference to Islamic History or without refrence to Islamic History just answer my simple question dear Simple.

Why do you think so that God would never allow such a thing as Slavery.

Elke

rajah, you really have a wall around your mind. Most times, you do not even understand what people are telling you. You're the kind that needs ennemies and if you don't find them you fabricate them. Keep going, you're ways are so very islamic

ps and yes i prefer to be very precise the last sentence above was ironic

May be I have a wall around my mind, but there are holes in it, just peep inside and you will find some one who is not so bad as you think.

liquiddharma

Raj-ah, the Quran says "It was not for any Prophet to hold captives except those taken in battle". Are you thinking that ma malakat aymanukum were in fact Amazons?

Some of them may be were amazon who realy fought the battle, but most of them were not. Trading of slaves was allowed and Quran did not put a ban on it. You should quote down the actual verse you are talking about making it easier to comment.

I think following verse will further clarify my point

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and parts meant to be hidden except what appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty of it except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden body parts. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss."

The verse is very clear that slaves are allowed and not all of them were offcourse amazons.

Now at last we will discuss the 43?.?aw ma malakat aymanukum? lit or what your right hands possessed,

The writer of article says

?ma malakat aymanukum? (MMA) can be found in the Quran to refer to different groups of people and women in different situations. The context is very important; this is not referring to slaves or captives.

please read the following Ayat

Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

and now read the verse

And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice then one or that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

We know through the previous ayat that rights of slave women are half of that of a free women. So if not sure that we can be just then one wife is enough and in addition to that Free wife the slave women who can take care of the Orphans.

Why Allah makes a difference between a Slave women and free women, why allows men to have many slave women at a time in addition to wife?

These are questions which keep on hammering my mind since long time.
We are in process of understanding but one thing is for sure I never want to change Quran according to my own wishes. Weather I like slavery or not, weather i like polygyny or not.