Background info

Taken from Mustansir Mir's "Dictionary of Quranic Terms and Concepts"

NB 3 = Arabic letter Ayn

3BD
In its literal sense of "slave, bondsman" 3bd (pl. ibad, 3bid) occurs in such verses as 2176, 221 and 1675. But its typical Quranic meaning is "servant-worshipper." 3bd in this sense is essentially a statement of man's proper role - man ought to serve and worship God, his Creator and Lord - whether or not that role is actually performed. This explains the usage in a verse like 3413 ("Only a few of My ibad are the grateful ones&quot, where ibad includes those who perform the stated role and those who do not. It is only when he actually performs that role that man becomes an 3bd in the true sense, as in 1765 "Indeed you shall have no power over My ibad" (also 1542). David is called a "good 3bd" in 3817, and so, in 3830, is Solomon (see also 192 and 3841).
Insofar as it is man's duty to serve God, 3bd carries ethical connotations. Occasionally, however, it is used as a value-free term. In 175, which alludes to Nebuchadnezar's attack on Jerusalem (586 B.C.), the invading troops are called "Our ibad" not because they were particularly righteous, but simply because they served as an instrument for executing a certain divine scheme.

The book is rare, about 23 years old, but it is quite good sometimes.

Just food for thought... This is where the names Abdul and Abdullah are from.

So? What's your point.

Though I consider circumcision to be a terrible innovation, I disagree with the use of 954 in argument against it. The verse does not refer to bodily superiority of humans, but to our mental superiority above other inhabitants of the planet earth. The following verse makes that point very clear.

Peace,
Edip

Yeah, when God says "form", he doesn't mean a physical thing, he must mean our mental status.

You say 955 proves your point, but when you read the verse after that, it shows that 955 is in reference to the afterlife.

955 Then We returned him to the lowest of the low.

956 Except those who have acknowledged and carry out reforms; they will have a reward of thanks.

The "lowest of the low" means hell, not this dunya. How can this dunya be the lowest of the low when we are blessed with God's grace in every aspect?

And why would God say "form" in 954 if He didn't mean the physical form?? Is there a such thing as a "mental form"? No, it's just a concept.. A form implies something physical.

I was an atheist my whole life until about 7 months ago. I started researching code 19 and it let me to believe that the Quran was written by God eventually. I had Rashad's first version of his translation, so I didn't buy into the whole him being a messenger bit at first.. But eventually I started to believe he was a messenger. I guess even before believing he was a messenger, I could have been considered "sectarian" because I believed in HIS tafsir and hadith which can be severely distorted and / or false. Really that's not different than believing in the Sunni hadith / tafsir.

Alhamdulillah I found the errors in my ways and realized that Rashad was a charlatan and code 19 was a hoax. I still thought the Quran is legitimate scripture though. And I thought about becoming Sunni even for a few days (but never studied any hadith or anything), but again God guided me to the right path...

Now all I believe in is the Quran. I like to hear different viewpoints in the tafsir, but I don't trust anyone to be the truth in all cases.. I learned my mistake by trusting Rashad.

excuse me, it was you that posted about God creating powerful weed and forgetting things, and you that claimed God a liar. THAT I find distasteful and I have not made any personal insults to you as it was you that was referring to God smoking weed, or did you forget that?

distasteful whatever

I heard what you said. I never was actually claiming that God is a liar, or forgetful, or was really on weed. In the English language, we sometimes use this thing called "sarcasm" when trying to make a point. I was making the point that YOU are the one that says God is the liar when he says the Quran is the best testimony, or that the Quran is complete, or that the Quran is fully detailed.

You are the one saying that God forgot and left out important commandments, like that we need to chop off part of a baby's penis or else it might rot off. Not only are you saying that God forgot to mention it, but he forgot to remove that piece of our skin HIMSELF, if he didn't want it. From your point of view, you must either think God is a liar or forgetful, or else there is no other reason why a necessary commandment would be left out of the Quran, when he says its complete.

Now get off the weed and go read what I have actually said again.

Rowr.... That's the THIRD time you've attacked me with the same uncalled for and untruthful baseless personal accusation.

I not only recommend that you take a class basic logic (like p-->q) but that you attend a seminar on proper debating etiquette or maybe just read the Quran where it says you should treat fellow believers with respect, and not to make unfounded / untruthful accusations.

I'm not quite sure why you're so mad at me. You're the one saying that God created us in a flawed form, even though he says its "the best", then you call him a liar and say its not "the best", that we should "change it with scalpels", then you say because he SUPPOSEDLY commanded Jews to do it, that that means that Muslims should do it too, and then you say that the Quran isn't fully detailed, and God left stuff out of it. Maybe you should be mad at God for being so incompetent and forgetful, from your point of view, not mad at me for pointing it out.

The way I see it, we are supposed to have foreskin, that's why He gave it to us, and that's why he never commanded Muslims to cut it off. I guess some people get really upset when they start to question their own paradigm, and as a defense mechanism to protect their ego, instead of admitting they might be wrong, they resort to anger and ad hominem attacks. You should know this, every time you back Jamaal into a corner, he does the same thing.

Some muslims dont eat shellfish as shellfish are scavengers and therefore unclean.

So? What some Muslims CHOSE to do and CHOSE not to do has no bearing on this conversation. You clearly stated that Muslims are COMMANDED to circumcised because of something written in the Torah for the Jews. Therefor, because Jews were commanded not to eat shellfish as well, then by the same logic, Muslims must be commanded not to eat shellfish too! Because some Muslims chose not to eat a meat which is HALAL, that doesn't have any bearing on anything... You said that Muslims ARE TO BE circumsized, because of the torah

The circumcision of men is from the covenant made between Abraham and God back in Torah, Genesis 17. http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017&version=KJV

All men of the Abrahamic religion are to be circumcized, that includes Muslims

Do a search for 'Book' In Quran and tell me what Book it refers to. Also explain 'people of the Book'. The Book is the whole thing, the whole message from God divided into portions.

Again, so what about this??

619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.

And what about these?

638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.

6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?"

6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

Please don't ever claim you believe in "Quran alone", or that you believe that the Quran has all the answers. You are just like a Sunni or Shia.. You believe that the Quran itself is incomplete. You think that God likes to forget important bits of information in His book, and then lies when he says that it was complete.

The Quran completes the message from Allah.

No, as I have shown with 619, the Quran SUPERSEDES all other books, and none of the others can be trusted.

There is no changing the words because The Book is with Allah, people can change it 'with thier tongues' as they have been doing since day one, but it wont change the actual Words of Allah. We have Quran, the final part of the message, it is in the same words recited to Muhammed and we are fortunate in that respect, but still there are 'People of the Book (Jews Christians Muslims) who try to change its message by adding to it and saying this is from Allah when its not.

You just admit that people change them.. And then say that they can't be changed? Why would God talk about in the Quran about "saying something is from God, when it's not" if he wasn't talking about how the previous scriptures were corrupted!

seems too much weed is messing up your thinking.

Just because I don't agree with your view that all Muslim boys must have part of their dick chopped off because it was written in an old corrupted Jewish text, doesn't mean that you have to get your panties in a twist and resort to childish insults.

I answered a question that was asked.

No you didn't. You never answered how you can possibly say that you believe the Quran is COMPLETE and FULLY DETAILED, when you say that God left out important bits of information. You don't believe the Quran is the "greatest testimony" because you believe other books are just as truthful, and just as great, even thought they are contradictory.

No you are the one that called God a liar in your opening post.

Apparently you can't comprehend what an "If ---> Then" type statement is. I suggest you take 101 Logic course at a local community college... I never called God a liar. I said if you believe the Quran isn't complete and fully detailed, then you are in effect calling God a liar. And since you claim that it's not complete OR fully detailed, then you are saying He is a liar... Not to mention an incompetent designer.

Again I request you search 'Book' in Quran so you can make it clear to yourself that this Quran is the final part of the Book of Allah. There are many many verses confirming that Allah sent those previous Books and together, the whole theing, is THE BOOK.

Um if all of it is one continuous book, then why does God specifically call the QURAN the greatest testimony in 619, and not all the other books? If they are all uncorrupted, then why do they contradict eachother on so many fronts? Why does God make shellfish / cloven hoofed animals haram for the Jews, but halal for the Muslims? In that case, why would you assume something that was decreed for the Jews directly applies to the Muslims. Do you think God would actually expect Muslims to trust Jews about ANYTHING (especially the veracity of their holy books) after making such an example of how wicked and untruthful they are in the Quran? Hmmmm...

What about in 6114 when it calls the Quran sufficiently detailed it says THIS book, not "these books". It's clearly a singular particular, clearly denoting the Quran. If it was how you said and "book" meant ALL of books, then it would be called "THE book", not THIS book. Or maybe it would be called "THESE" books", because God clearly gives them separate names!

As I said before though, the previous books were written in the words of man as far as we know and not recited like Quran was.
I find your insults towards God to be distasteful.

I never insulted God. Please read this article which explains if --> then... http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional

Maybe it would do you some good to stay off the weed a while and look at the book with a clearer mind?

You literally just accused me of being "distasteful" in your LAST SENTENCE, then again with the unfounded personal insults? Apparently you can't handle a normal debate based on intellect, and you must resort to ad hominem attacks. For the record, I don't smoke weed... I'm Muslim, remember?

But maybe intoxicants are fine and dandy for the Jews to smoke... So is it OK if i do? whatever

Why would someone who doesn't believe the Quran get upset when another person tells them that according to the Quran they are a rejector? I couldn't care less if someone told me, according to the hadith I was a rejector.

No, you have it wrong. If you're someone who actually believes the Quran was written by God and is unaltered then you're a "sectarian thug". Yes, that means you are part of that evil bigoted sect of Islam which claims that the Quran is real!

If you want to be a fair and balanced Muslim, you have to accept that the Quran was written and changed by men, and that none of means anything anyway, cause any statement can mean the exact opposite of what it says. Mmmkay? whatever

You are such a hypocrite. I don't think condemning millions of people to death from AIDs is a very peaceful thing to do, but I can't have a serious conversation with a sectarian thug so I'll just ignore you.

whatever

LOL that's all you say is "sectarian thug"... What sect am I exactly? The one that believes the Quran? How is not cutting a part of your baby's dick off "condemning them to AIDS"?? How about teaching your kid to use a condom? Why don't you get mad at God for letting AIDS be created, or why don't you get mad at GOD for giving children foreskin, he's the one that designed us.

But no, God's design wasn't good enough, so we need to cut it off and mutilate your children. Like I said, you're the hatchet wielding thug!

What about the part about the Quran being complete? 638, 114-15. Those verses don't count all of a sudden right?

You implied "best" means "perfect". In English, it does not.

Similarly, in Arabic, the relative term "ahsan" does not mean "perfect". Although, I'm sure it may be used like this somewhere, but not in AQ. Even in the example brought by RH, it does not prove anything.

I never said anything about "major flaw" or "needs surgery", so let's stick to the discussion at hand.

Human beings are not perfect, and their physical beings succumb to many problems, the only perfect being is God.

We're supposed to succumb to "many problems" though. We are not meant to live forever.. Therfore we are still in the best form.

Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.

Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.

Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.

And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?

Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.

Well we're obviously not in the "BEST form", if the 'better form" is one with foreskin removed, now, are we?

In the eyes of God, best = perfect. If it could be better, God would make it better. Why would God design us with a major flaw, then tell us we are in the "best form", which needs surgery to make better?

The circumcision of men is from the covenant made between Abraham and God back in Torah, Genesis 17. http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017&version=KJV

All men of the Abrahamic religion are to be circumcized, that includes Muslims ;D

Peace Ayisha,

So, by your logic, it's haram for Muslims to eat shrimp, crab, lobster, or any other shellfish too?

What about 638, 6114-15?

638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.

6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?"

6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

I guess what God MEANT to say was, "He has send down this book sufficiently detailed, except for the part about mutilating little boys. Sorry, my bad, not only did I mess up on creating men, but I forgot about that part... Dang, this weed is really messin' me up tonight".

You are quick to spout off these verses when it suites your needs, but when you feel like having masochistic tendencies, you completely disregard them!
Not only are you calling God a liar and an incompetent designer, but you are saying that he is a forgetful writer as well.

If you have any question on which book supersedes which, just look at 619

619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.

I guess what God meant by "Quran" was actually "Torah"... I'm sure He can create some powerful weed.

Peace.

Can you provide evidence for your claim of "best form" means "perfect form"?

Thanks.

954 says "ahsan", , in the genitive, singular form. Oddly enough, it's also in the masculine form. "Best" means perfect, because if it could be improved upon, then it wouldn't exactly be the "best", now, would it? How can something be the "best form" if it needs to have part of it chopped off in order to live a happy and healthful life, as proponents of circumcision would claim?

When something is called the "best form", it means that it shouldn't be changed, because it is already perfect. In English it is a superlative.

Or how about this....

2. Those who believe in the Quran alone (just like the 1st) but then They follow the Quran by using some sort of Complex Classical Arabic Authentic Word Machine where "Wash your face and Feet" Actually Means "Love Allah by doing Charity."

Or Instead of "Do not have sex on menstruation".....That actually means "Work hard by doing what you want".

LOL or like the guy on this forum that takes 954 where God says that humans were created in the perfect form, to mean that humans were created in an imperfect form, and we need to cut part of a baby's penis off permanently, or else it will rot off, cause God is an incompetent designer.

peace OPF, all,

Funny you should mention this because about 2-3 weeks ago I asked some programmers to look into this functionality. Not only for a forum, but as a browser extension, similar to google chrome's dictionary look-up extension/plugin, i.e. by double-clicking on it, a bubble pops up with the dictionary meaning.
e.g. like https//chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/mgijmajocgfcbeboacabfgobmjgjcoja

www.quranix.net has this functionality for its Quran notes. The programmer behind this site is one of those whom I contacted.

If the above is too complex, another tool suggested was for Quranic article writers, i.e. if they reference verses they can run their article through a script and it makes all verse references pop-up like quranix.net does.

As for the forum version, I assume it would need to contact a database or site that could provide the translation. It would save a few seconds, and would be useful.

I will let you all know what the programmers come up with, if anything. As a side note, if any programmers out there feel they could develop something like this, feel free to personal message me. StudyQuran can even pay for it to be developed if needed.

Awesome idea. I know that Edip has this sort of functionality on his Quranix.net page, I really enjoy it.

Pitty you ignore the Quran then. God does not favour the hypocrites.

494 And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!"

I wouldn't say that calling someone a "sectarian thug" is "greeting them with peace". I wouldn't say that chopping off a piece of a child's penis is coming at them with peace either.

And I would NEVER call somebody who believes the Quran isn't divine a believer. Nobody in their right might would. Furthermore you say that EVEN IF the Quran was written by God, none of it could actually be understood to mean anything. If one thing says one thing, it might actually mean the exact opposite of what was said. Blue might mean green. Up might mean down.

Yes, you believe that the Quran was sent to us to provide confusion, instead of guidance.. Sounds a lot like the Christian rejectors who say that the Quran WAS an inspiration, but an inspiration from the devil himself....

That's circular reasoning, and you are a sectarian fundamentalist. It's okay, you can live in a cave with your extremist buddies, but don't try and intimidate people here with your thuggish language.

I am more concerned with the reality of what things represent rather than with scriptural dogma. I'm not criticising the Quran at all, I do believe in represents truth and God's guidance, however it is mostly symbolism, and you can't take something saying human beings are prefect literally, because obviously we're not. We get sick and die early deaths quite often. Circumcision prevents many of these.

We're supposed to get sick and die early deaths, the Quran even says that. So yes, we are perfect.

No, you don't need to cut off part of your dick to be healthy.

It's rather rich that you call me a "sectarian" thug for simply pointing out the fact that you don't even believe in the divinity of the Quran, making you a kaffir (rejector) by definition. You're the one that says you should chop off pieces of flesh from unwilling humans, as you strap them down to restraining board with straps.

Sounds like you're the only thug here!

Furthermore you claim that the Quran can't really mean anything, because none of it makes any sense. When God says humans were perfect, it means the exact opposite. The Quran says it's a "book of guidance", but how can it guide of if none of it can even be accepted as truth, because every single sentence could actually mean the exact opposite?

You're truly lost, but that's not my problem.

Believing in the Quran does not make me "sectarian", it makes me Muslim... And that's nothing to be ashamed of. ;D

Salaam..
Now since ISLAM is a womens religion why do we have to post a womens bill of rights unless rights are not being respected. It seems a bit unbalanced to me.. The Quran gives us our woman rights so why should/do we have to talk about, remind or post about islamic bill of rights for women in the bedroom and a second one for the Masjid? I feel bad for my friend who is stuck in a oppresive marriage with a polygamous husband on whom she does not want to admit or accept is a polygamist. Im in between a rock and a hard place trying to be her friend if she is not trying to hear the truth.

Wow, you sound like a real busy body.

She doesn't think he's cheating (or has another wife), you don't have any proof whatsoever, but instead you try to get involved in her life and worry about her problems.

Because he has a job that YOU don't approve of, you think she needs an intervention to leave her husband.... whatever

You should really mind your own business, and help her out if she comes to you for help.

Peace.

That's double meaning again. There is the "Quran" which is the completeness of God's wisdom for the universe, and there are the verses narrated by Muhammad, messenger of God, which other human beings wrote down.

So you think the Quran is corrupted now? Hmm, I seem to recall a verse in the Quran which says that Allah would protect it from any falsehood entering it, before or after.

Again you call God a liar, show your disbelief in the verses of the Quran, and prove that you are a kaffir.

They aren't the same thing. God doesn't have a mouth, but if he did, the universe would not be large enough to encapsulate it, and no book can encapsulate fullness of the wisdom of God.

I didn't mean a physical mouth with muscles, I meant a mouth in the context that He is using it as His method for speaking to humans and jinn. Really I overestimated your intelligence because I thought you would be able to understand simple concepts like that. Sorry, it won't happen again.

It's really silly to be a fundamentalist and try to interpret the Quran to mean black is white and white is black.

It's not fundamentalist when GOD HIMSELF says that the majority of the quran consists of straight-forward verses, and some of the other ones are MULTIPLE MEANING. This, by definition implies that there are 2 or more meanings simultaneously! That DOESN'T mean that when the quran says one thing, it actually means the complete opposite of it. You are in fact saying that NOTHING in the Quran can be taken to mean ANYTHING, because it all could mean completely the opposite of what God actually said.

Do you completely abstain from cutting your hair and nails, as well as refusing to wash or use deodorant? Because that's the nonsense conclusion from your line of thinking.

Hardly. Nails and hair are meant to grow. When you cut your foreskin, it doesn't grow back. Growing is a nature part of regeneration, to keep your hair and nails healthy. If foreskin grew back it might not be a problem to cut it, because you are not "altering God's creation" by cutting something that grows back, because it will come right back. Furthermore I don't see a problem if you want to let your hair grow, and nails will end up breaking themselves with normal work. Deodorant is a laughable issue, not hygienic but superficial.

And stop trying to be a sectarian thug. If you want to call people who disagree with you kaffir you should go live with bin laden in a cave in the hindu kush.

Saying that God wrote the Quran, and that God will protect the Quran is not "sectarian". Saying that God said in 954 that God created human in the perfect form is not sectarian either, that's QUOTING THE QURAN, word for word. I'm not even sectarian, I'm a Quranist.

I don't call people who disagree with me a kaffir, I call people who say that God didn't write the Quran, God won't protect the Quran, and nothing the Quran said can be taken as truth is a kaffir, because that is truly the definition of kaffir; one who rejects. You reject all these things, and in reality YOU are the one being spoken of at the end of 37.

Please don't claim that you are muslim, because you already know that you are no longer muslim, you have fallen into disbelief. You reject that anything in the Quran is true, you reject that God wrote it, and you reject that God protected it. I really have no shame in calling you a kaffir, for there is no better word to describe you, except maybe munafiq.

God didn't say that, God doesn't have a mouth.

Um, last time I checked, God wrote the Quran, so if God wrote something in the Quran, it was indeed himself saying that. The Quran is God's mouth. I thought I was debating a Muslim, not a kaffir. My mistake...

It's in the Quran and the Quran says about itself that sections of it are symbolic, 37.

Wow, you really need to re-read 37, if that's the interpretation you derived from it.

37 He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.

OK, first off let's look at what "multiple meaning" actually means It means that is has 2+ meanings, while having both simultaneously. You are claiming that God made a statement that DIDN'T MEAN WHAT HE CLEARLY SAID AT ALL, but meant something else entirely. Actually you are saying that when God made a clear statement, it actually meant the complete OPPOSITE of what he just said. That's not "multiple meaning", that's just a plain LIE.

You are in fact saying that God is lying.

Secondly, you are exactly this person being spoken about in the verse where it says "As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it."

You are the one with disease in your heart, but I already knew that since you claim that God didn't even write the Quran.

That's a metaphor. God didn't actually fashion us from clay, he doesn't have hands, he isn't even a he. Our bodies actually evolved from lower life forms which needed a foreskin to protect their penis from abrasion because they hadn't invented underwear. He made our soul perfect, our body is only as good as our evolutionary environment.

Since compared with our ancestors, underwear is more common and so are STDs (not just HIV- most sex viruses like HPV and syphilis aren't stopped by a condom), it makes less sense to have a foreskin and more sense to get circumcised. I honestly don't think God cares whether or not we're circumcised. It's for our benefit, not God's. It makes us cleaner and less disease prone.

So when God says that we are created in the perfect form, you're saying we're not actually in the best form, we need changes, and he was just lying??

What exactly is this "metaphor" supposed to mean then, if we were intended to have bits of our bodies cut off to make us in a better form?

Hmm?