Salaam Steven,

Your friends GO OUT and DRINK but you DO NOT GO but DRINK? lol.

mmKhan

LOL... No, I do not go out, as in I do not go out clubbing, or to pubs etc. and I do not drink, as in I do not drink alcoholic drinks. (Smart arse's P)

Well, it's taken me a little while to get to this point D

I wouldn't say I don't have any friends - but certainly I do not see a lot of them for the same reason, they go out and drink, I do not go and drink lol.

Peace bro,
Steven

)

I live in a small town in England called Ipswich.

Why does everyone keep asking me that question

Peace,
Steven

This is my point which I would like to be proven - the rakaat amount being in numbers doesn't prove anything, because like the brother illustriously demostated, there are tonnes of combinations linking to the number 17.

In Edip Yuksel's post (and a few others here), there is a quotation from the Qur'an where Allah tells us that the named salaat are obligatory - and it is my understanding that only the before sunrise, after sunset and "middle" prayers are named.

MMKhan has further stated that the middle prayer could be Juma.

Meaning either 2 prayers daily, before the day and at the end of the day. (or) a third prayer in the middle.

My whole point on this issue is that this makes a lot more sense than 5 daily prayers.

Because Allah is All Knowing, Most Merciful, and He would have known when He sent the Qur'an that this day in age would come where most people are either working full time or are in full time education. Anybody in that situation finds it almost impossible to pray the 5 daily prayers on time.

Allah said He has made the religion easy for us, and He has not made it a burden.

So, 2/3 prayers a day is certainly not a burden, anybody can do them.

Whereas 5 daily prayers; hardly anyone can do them, even if they wanted too (because of work/education comitments.)

Peace Edip,

I watched the video - it's a nice debate to watch, and I picked up on a lot of issues within the discussion. Marsha'Allah.

To be honest, here are some things which I picked up on, which may help you in the future (I hope you don't mind honest comments and critism)

The Salafi brother was very chasismatic, except when he was getting angry, and his voice in gerenal was clearer than yours is.
However, his charisma is copy-cat. I have personally heard the same jokes he used to make the audience laugh many (and I mean many) times before. I have heard sheikhs use the same jokes, I have heard brothers use the same jokes when I attended a tableighi school in London, I have heard brothers which came to my town on "jamaat" using the same jokes, and I have heard Da'ee's from TV use the exact same jokes. (Thus, my conclusion is that this is taught)

Another point I picked up on was when the salafi brother mentioned that the book on eating is the same size as the Qur'an. WOW. No wonder I don't know a single Sunni/Salafi muslim who reads the Qur'an a lot, if they need to read a book the same size just to find out how to eat. (The references to the Qur'an posted on this forum make clear that the Qur'an is the only source of religious instruction needed, the hadith will/have lead people astray, and only the pure read the Qur'an often)

I also noticed their were chaps sitting inbetween you.... why was this? I have never seen it in a debate before?

Furthermore I picked up something which you yourself clearly picked up on during the debate (because you mentioned it)... which is when the brother said "Allah" he didn't glorify Him who deserves to be glorified. However he would glorify Muhammad.

There is no teaching the Qur'an to glorify Muhammad - Qur'an always teachs to glorify Allah alone.

Other than these points, I think the debate went rather well. To be honest the salafi was getting angry a lot, but this is because he is trained to get mad when somebody talks about the prophet or his following generations.

However, considering I have heard everything he has said before (and I haven't even heard this brother before) and I have seen the same style before - It is clear that he is blindly following. A robot. Which Qur'an condemns.

Many people may want to argue or hurt me for saying this - but it is an observation I have made - and when you think for yourself, and observe, I don't know a single muslim who wouldn't come to the same conclusion.

I would also like to make it clear that Edip is NOT trying to destroy Islam or it's history. He is trying to revive the real Islam taught by Allah in His Qur'an.

"They planned and plotted but Allah is the best of planners" - Allah made the Qur'an in a way that is can not be edited, it can not changed, He protected it.

Allah did not protect the hadith - and Allah warns about the hadith numerous times. He uses the example of Moses people asking the same trivial questions which lead them astray. How did it lead them astray? They set up partners with Allah, they followed other books other than the guidence He send down.

IMHO As soon as somebody says that they are a "Sunni/Shia/Sufi/Salafi/etc." they are breaking an important rule in the Qur'an - Do NOT cause divisions in the religion. Simply by saying that you are Sunni, you are causing a division and helping the division to be there.

"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" - by even saying "I am Sunni" or "I am Shia", you are part of the problem and big sin of causing divisions in the religion. The only way not to be part of the problem and be part of the solution is to not say that you belong to a division - do NOT belong to a division - and simply be a Muslim (one who is submitting to the will of Allah, not the will of anybody else)

That's my honest thoughts and opinions on the matter. I'm sure much more can be said, but I have never debated with a muslim on stage in a controlled enviornment and I have certainly never done this in a muslim country, so who am I to speak.

Praise and Glory be Allah alone, and well done in your efforts to try and re-establish the sunnah of Allah, the way which has no errors and no changes.

Peace,
Steven

Thank you for your reply Muhammad,

So, am I right in realizing your conclusion is that before sunrise and after sunset prayers but be done daily, and the middle prayer is a description given to the prayer which must be established in congregation on Friday?

If so, this certainly also makes sense and doesn't conflict with any of Allah's attributes.

((I mention making sense a lot, because it is this "making sense" (and of course, Allah's guidance!) which has brought me to where I am in the first place. When I first embraced Islam, everything made perfect sense, so this, coupled with the scientific miracles of the Qur'an, proved to me that Islam is the true religion. It is only after being pulled into the Sunni sect that things started not making sense, and I was finding contradictions and hypocrisy everywhere, even among some of the most respected teachers. Praise be to Allah, my mind will not shut up until something makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, it sends alarm bells off in my over-active mind and I can't stop thinking about something until I figure it out. . Thinking back, when I was a young teenager, this tendency of mine earned me the nickname (or street name) of "Sensa" from my peers. Praise be to Allah alone - I was also quite advanced as a youth, I shine in an academic environment, for example I was doing high school work in primary school, being tutored separately to most of the other students . I put most of my success academically down to the fact that I would always think for myself rather than blindly follow the others or even the teacher, I would always work things out for myself instead. --- Not that I am trying to be arrogant, rather if you were to meet me I'm sure you would say I am humble (most people I know compliment me on this), and I am far from infallible I have made A LOT of mistakes in my short life, and I am currently not in a very good place financially etc. and I made a lot of social and family based mistakes early on in life (and although I blame no-one but myself for my mistakes, through deep hind sight thinking and meditating, I have come to the conclusion that most of my serious problems came about as a result of NOT trusting my intuition, and NOT thinking for myself, but instead opting to blindly follow other peoples instruction and advice - some of these important lessons I learned the hard way) - but praise be to Allah, they caused me to stop and really think, deeply. (Long story, we can share life stories one day if you wish))

^ I included the above because I think it would be good to actually get to know each other as fellow monotheists, of course the topic of establishing the truth and worshiping Allah is the important topic, but it would be nice to get to know the people I am talking to also, and for you to get to know me.

Peace,
Steven

Once again, thank you all for the kind words and warm welcomes.

Praise be to Allah, since this enlightening discovery, I have been reading more Qur'an than ever before in my life. May Allah increase us in guidence and knowledge.

I look forward to chatting more with you guys and girls, peace be upon you all. ;D

Peace,
Steven

Thank you for the warm welcome and kind words

And about Good Logic's statement I agree.

Allah says Muhammad is the last prophet. He makes no mention of a final messenger, leaving the window open for one or more messengers to come after Muhammad.

A prophet as described by the Qur'an brings a scripture, a messenger confirms the existing scripture.

Insha'Allah I will be online and active and join in with discussion - I use libraries and internet cafes to get online, unless I'm visiting someone with an internet connection, so my time online is limited, but insha'Allah I will be active.

Critial thinking and mathematics is something I have excelled in since a young age (long life story, I won't speak it now) - also I have never had formal teaching on "how to think" or "very advanced maths" - again long story. (insha'Allah I will have chances to share my stories with you, and you share yours with me)

However, after not being in a school environment for 7 years, it is something I'm rusty on, but looking to take up study and practice, so insha'Allah I will benefit from being here and you will benefit from me being here - I look forward to getting to know you guys and girls better.

Peace.

P.S - Your post, Youssef came up while I was writing this one - Thank you for sharing those links, insha'Allah I will read them when I have time

It might also be worthwhile to note - thinking for myself instead of blindly following played a big part - as well as the discovery of the miracle 19.

I am from Ipswich in the UK.

Furthermore, I understand the claims I am making may get me in a bit of trouble - people have died over such claims, but to be honest I will not hide my identity, I trust in Allah to protect me, and if I die because of spreading the Qur'an, then I am happy to die this way.

This is why I am currently looking to put together a report, a collection of proofs from the Qur'an alone, also observations which I have made about the "ummah" in general which nobody can deny, so that I can properly spread the message of the real Islam.

Ironically, some people claim that those following the word of Allah have gone astray, I can not see the logic behind this claim, and simply refute it, surely those following other books are the ones who have gone astray?

It is strange because I feel as if I have a massive and dangerous task on my hands, and I should be feeling scared and overwhelmed, but I don't feel this way, alhumdulillah.

Where are you from bro, and how did you come to following the Word of Allah Alone?

Peace

Thank you es.

Well, like I mentioned in my post - since I was introduced to Sunni, started going to classes and lectures and listening to advice from Sunni people and lecturers, that was when things started to not make sense.

These issues were bugging the daylights out of my mind.

For example the issue of the command from Allah to not make distinction between the messengers. Yet, everywhere I saw Muhammads name next to Allah (in mosques, decorations, etc.) - furthermore, everybody was saying "peace and blessings be upon him" when talking about Muhammad, but only "peace be upon him" when talking of any other messenger. Not to mention Muhammad was being mentioned in their prayers and azaan, but no other messenger.

This is just one example.

I found loads. And they were bugging me, and nobody could give me an answer which made sense - originally I thought "hold on, everybody can't be wrong, I must have a misunderstanding" - but to be honest, and I don't mean to sound arrogant, but ever since a young age I figured things out for myself instead of blindly following, and I was good at that (Praise be to Allah), so I was sure I wasn't wrong about my suspicions.

Then, I by chance, or rather by Allah's will, stumbled upon the document "19 questions for muslim scholars" by Edip Yuksol.

It was a big moment - a game changer.

Since then I went through every Qur'an reference in his writing and checked it, everything was making perfect sense. So I started researching further and spent a few days and a few sleepless nights reading more Qur'an than I have ever before - the truth was clear to me - easy to understand.

(( Another example of things which didn't make sense was the prayer, in which Sunni's say the words "peace be upon YOU, O Muhammad" - clearly shirk. Alhumdulillah, I assumed that the person who wrote my prayer book has mis-translated the arabic, so I was saying in my prayers "O Allah, please..." - I later found out, it wasn't mistranslated at all - Sunni's are practicing shirk ))

Now I can see the truth. We are to follow Qur'an alone, worship Allah alone, call upon Allah alone.

And alhumdulillah I can use the Qur'an to prove my claim.

Alhumdulillah I could talk for hours on this subject )

Peace.

Peace be upon you.

Through reading the information on these forums, and its links, and then checking the mentioned verses in the Qur'an - I have come to the conclusion that 3 prayers is the correct amount and not 5.

My reasons for believing this is because (correct me if I'm wrong), we are told that the prayers which we must follow are named, and there are 3 named prayers. (Morning, Evening + Middle). (See Edip Yuksel's article and this very forum for more info and Qur'anic references).

But the main thought which lead me to believe this is correct is the issue of Allah making the religion easy for us and not a burden for us.

You see, having 5 daily prayers clearly contradicts this. Because Allah is Omnipotent and All Knowing, Most Wise, and because the Qur'an was meant for people from the time of Muhammad until the end of mankind - it makes more sense of the 3 prayers being correct rather than 5.

Living in England I can tell you now very few people, practically nobody, (only taxi drivers, unemployed and imams from what I've witnessed) can pray all 5 prayers, on time, in the Mosque. Practically NOBODY. This clearly contradicts the religion being not a burden and easy for us. It also contradicts Allah's attribute of being All Knowing, because surely He would have known that times would be like they are today.

However, if we take the 3 prayers as the law, based on the Qur'anic verses as evidence as posted in Edip Yuksel's article and others - this makes a lot more sense and does not conflict with any of Allah's attributes or anything He tells us in the Qur'an.

3 prayers is easy for anybody to make - it is not a burden on us, living in the current times. Even those who work a 9-5 job can pray the "before sunrise" and "after sunset" prayer, and everybody is given atleast an hour break in the middle of their working day, which they can pray the "middle" prayer.

(This is my understanding of the prayer times).

In this way, if there is indeed two prayers, one at either end of the day, and then a third prayer in the middle - the prayer doesn't become a burden for anybody, even those who work full time or are in full time education.

Otherwise, if the prayers are 5 a day, this means the majority of people who either work a full time job, or are in full time education, don't have a chance of making every prayer on time. Or, atleast if they do have a chance, it will almost certainly be a burden upon them.

So, to conclude - I firmly believe Allah is All Knowing, Most Wise and Omnipotent. He has always known that todays society would be exactly what it is, and that people would be working full time jobs or be in full time education to support themselves and their families finacially.

I also firmly believe that Allah doesn't lie, and when He told us in His Qur'an that doesn't want to make the religion difficult or a burden for us, this is exactly the case. Glory be to Allah. There is no God but He. He is the All Knowing, Most Wise, Most Merciful.

Sorry I haven't posted any Qur'anic references - I am using a library computer which runs very slowly when you start opening up multiple windows. God willing, I will update this post with references to chapters and verses in the Qur'an.

Peace,
Steven

Peace be upon you.

I have been Muslim (Sunni) for two years. When I first joined the religion, it was the scientific miracles in the Qur'an and the fact that everything I was hearing from Qur'an made perfect sense to me that appealed to me.

Since joining the religion and trying to practice to the best of my ability - error's, contradictions and things which didn't make sense were be promoted to me as truth by people who have done a lot more research than me (they have University degrees in Islam, they are Imams, Sheikhs, etc) - but, due to my nature of being a thinker, these errors and contradictions were bugging me.

Praise be too Allah I have discovered by Allah's will why, because they are fabricated, because we are supposed to follow Qur'an alone, worship Allah alone!

I discovered this truth only a few days ago, since then I have spent more time reading Qur'an than ever before - everything makes sense - praise be to Allah.

So I would just like to say hi, I don't want to write too much of an introduction, but if you have any questions please ask, and God willing I will get to know you better during my time here.

I am 22, male, English, from UK. and my intention is to worship Allah alone, in the way He has prescribed, and teach the truth to the people around me, in a way which is best, insha'Allah.

Peace.